what is wrong with the reaping mauler?

[ngilop]

Hey guys, what are some shortcomings of the Reaping Mauler prestige class and what would be some ways to make it do what it is suppose to do? like a small list of it needs this, this should be at an earlier level and such along those lines.

PLEASE DO NOT SAY GIVE IT SPELLCASTING

[Waker]

Though there are several points that could be brought up, the biggest issue is the limitations on grappling and how the Reaping Mauler not only addresses the problem but makes it worse.

You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.
That is taken from the description on grappling. A small creature cannot grapple with a Large creature, a medium creature cannot grapple a Huge creature.
One of the requisite feats for the Reaping Mauler is Clever Wrestling.

Prerequisite
Improved Unarmed Strike (PH) , Small or Medium size
In order to get this feat, you have to be small or medium sized. This shoehorns you into being suboptimal at your specialty. It gets better though, if memory serves me, CWar is the splatbook that specifically called out losing access to PrC features if you don't qualify for it's prereq feats. Meaning if you use a spell to grow bigger and improve your grappling skills...you no longer qualify for Clever Wrestling and lose access to your Mauler abilities.

[Necroticplague]

Hey guys, what are some shortcomings of the Reaping Mauler prestige class and what would be some ways to make it do what it is suppose to do? like a small list of it needs this, this should be at an earlier level and such along those lines.

1. it's prerequisite is lost if you try and get larger than Medium, so you're gonna be bad at grappling (which wants you to be as big as possible)
-Subnote, Clever wrestling only makes you better at escaping grapple, not actually grappling, so it's not something a grappler wants.
2. Improved grapple as a bonus feat way after any grappler will already have it, without a "if you already have this, pick a different feat" clause.
3. Mobility and Adept Wrestling are both horrible for grapplers. As a grappler, you'll spend a lot of time standing in one spot, while not having DEX to AC vs. most enemies, so you want to be in the heaviest armor possible, and won't provoke many AoO's from moving in threatened spaces in the first place.
4.Counter grapple, again, requires you to be in not much armor. And, just like clever wrestling, it doesn't help you actually be a better grapple, instead letting you escape a grapple better. If you're a grapple, you want to be IN the grapple.
5. Due to MAD (Grapplers need STR for the checks, DEX for the feats, and CON to live), Sleeper Hold and Devastating Grapple will typically have incredibly low DCs, making them unlikely to go off (even ignoring that many creatures are flat-out immune).
6. Even without the above, Maintaining a pin for 3 rounds straight is unlikely against any enemy that's actually a legitimate threat, so Devestating Grapple is either a waste of turns against an easy foe, or just not gonna happen.

So, in summary, all of it's abilities are either counterproductive, useless for the types of characters the class is allegedly supposed to be used by, both, or unlikely to ever be useful. Sleeper Hold is the only somewhat decent aspect of the class, and you don't get that until you plow through 3 levels of crap. And you loose it whenever you try and use the buff otherwise most useful to you.

So, as a quick-and-dirty: Replace Clever Wrestling with Improved Grapple, Grant some kind of Improved Grab + Multigrab prereq-free at level 1 instead of Mobility and Improved Grapple (or let them use STR instead of DEX to qualify for feats with IUS or Improved Grapple as prereqs), make Adept Wrestling work regardless of armor and double it's bonus, make Sleeper Hold have a STR based DC, replace Devestating Grapple with either a constrict-like effect, or a powerful-build like effect (one size up for Unarmed Damage, grapple checks, and whether you can grapple an enemy).

[Waker]

Necroticplague really covered most of the suggestions I would make. Some other fixes might include:
Unarmed Damage progression- If the class is gonna require the feat and specialize in wrasslin', getting bonus damage seems fair.
Con to AC- If the class demands you wear light or no armor, you gotta compensate some other way. Wisdom is for wimps who think about peace and stuff, whereas you are a rough dude.
Suplexing trains- No where in the class does it mention this and that is a gross failure I cannot overlook.
DR or other Resistances- Size being one of the limiting factors, another important reason that grappling is bad is the fact that many enemies can hurt you simply by touching. Many oozes, elementals and outsiders can do damage even if they are losing a grapple. Some defense wouldn't hurt.

[AvatarVecna]

The problem with Reaping Mauler is that it specializes in grappling.

Let's put aside the issue of how you would successfully grapple an opponent in the first place, and look just at what happens if you succeed: if you successfully grapple your opponent, you're probably a dedicated Str-based character, well now if you wanna damage your opponent, you need to use a light, natural, or unarmed weapon, which probably doesn't suit your combat style well, and you take a penalty to the attack roll; you can avoid this penalty by instead making a grapple roll to make an unarmed strike. Improved Grapple helps with the latter, but now with the former, so if you're not dedicated unarmed, you're taking a big penalty to attack in order to deal damage that probably isn't very impressive. Still, they have the same kind of limitations, so that's...something? Or hey, you could pin them, and then you can't attack them at all! But there's nothing preventing them from attacking, so they just have the normal penalty, because that makes sense.

Alright, well I'm playing a Fighter with Improved Grapple and Superior Unarmed Strike, can I be cool grappling? Nope, because by the time you're good enough at fighting to have the attacks and damage that makes this style worthwhile, most of the opponents you'll be facing will either be melee brutes (who will be big, have lots of HD for BAB, and might even have Improved Grapple themselves), ranged people you can't get to without getting pincushioned, and spellcasters who use BFC and summons to keep you away from them; grappling works on none of these people.

Okay, so you've gotten into the high levels; you've got the BAB and size necessary to successfully grapple most people if you can get a hand on them, you've got a way to make lots of grapple attempts a round to pin somebody if you get close to them, you have amazing reach and ridiculous speed, and your unarmed strike damage is optimized out the wazoo. Now can you be cool at grappling? Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) That spell lasts over an hour when you originally get it, it can be persisted by a DMM addict or metamagicking wizard recreating it via Limited Wish (or who snagged it via Arcane Disciple, Wyrm Wizard, or something similar), or maybe an Artificer just made a ring of it for 40000 gp at the most (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement) (a real high-level Artificer would probably make it in exchange for 13500 gp, 1200 XP, and 30 days time, but ehhhh). Yes, that's a core lvl 4 spell that completely negates your entire playstyle, and short of taking the spell away from your grapple target, there's no way around it.

Let's start with something that just annoys me: this grappling class doesn't require Improved Grapple to enter, specifically so it can grant you Improved Grapple as your first level feature. **** off with this bull****, Reaping Mauler, don't patronize me. Why does this suck, other than being annoying? Well, one obvious entry is a grapple-focused Monk, who's gonna already have this as a bonus feat, so granting it to them again is already kind of wasting a class feature. It's less of a waste for fighters, since they don't necessarily gain Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, but since it does nothing to actually help them hurt people they're grappling, it doesn't get points there either. It also grants you Mobility in light/no armor, which is nice for Monks but bad for Fighters, making Monk seem even more likely as the intended entry, and making the Improved Grapple feature more obviously insulting.

I need you to hold onto your seat for this one: in exchange for never getting a bigger size from something like Enlarge Person or whatever, Reaping Mauler...gives you a +2 to grapple checks and related opposed Str/Dex checks! WOOOOOOOO!!!!! Wait, that sucks.

Counter Grapple is a class feature for escaping grapples: if you're grappled/pinned, and you fail to escape the grapple/pin despite being a grapple expert, the universe takes pity on you and lets you attempt to escape a second time in the same round. This is the universe acknowledging that you're probably still ****ty enough to fail grapple checks and need some ability to bail your ass out.

Sleeper Lock and Devastating Grapple are nice, particularly in conjunction, but the save is likely to be pretty low compared to most foes you grapple.

Prerequisites:

BAB: +5
Skills: Escape Artist 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
Special: The candidate must have defeated at least three opponents one size category larger than himself with his bare hands


HD: d10
Skills: Same as monk across the board.



Lvl
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features


1
+1
+2
+2
+0
Larger Than Life, Professional Wrestler, Monk Abilities


2
+2
+3
+3
+0
Monstrous Opponent


3
+3
+3
+3
+1
Bonus Feat, Body Slam


4
+4
+4
+4
+1
Larger Than Life


5
+5
+4
+4
+1
Wrestling Champion


6
+6
+5
+5
+2
Bonus Feat, Sleeper Lock


7
+7
+5
+5
+2
Larger Than Life


8
+8
+6
+6
+2
Inescapable


9
+9
+6
+6
+3
Bonus Feat, Devastating Grapple


10
+10
+7
+7
+3
Larger Than Life, Legendary Wrestler



Monk Abilities: A reaping mauler's class levels stack with his monk levels for determining his unarmed damage, AC bonus, and unarmored speed bonus.

Larger Than Life: When this ability is gained, you count as one size larger than you are for the purposes of grapple checks, the opponents you're capable of grappling/keeping grappled, how heavy an improvised weapon you can wield, and your unarmed strike damage. This ability is gained again at 4th, 7th, and 10th lvl, and stacks with itself.

Professional Wrestler: Add your class level to your grapple checks and to the damage of any attack you make in a grapple. Additionally, you gain the Stunning Fist feat, and your Reaping Mauler levels count as monk levels for the purposes of determining how many uses you have per day.

Monstrous Opponent: When wearing light or no armor, you gain an untyped bonus to your Natural Armor equal to your Constitution modifier. Additionally, you gain DR X/- equal to half your class level (rounded down), which stacks with other DR X/-. Finally, you gain the Improved Grab ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab).

Bonus Feat: At 3rd, 6th, and 9th lvl, you gain a feat from the Fighter Bonus Feat list; you must qualify for the selected feat.

Body Slam: If, at the start of your turn, you have a creature pinned, and that creature is within the weight limit of improvised weapons you're capable of wielding, you may wield that creature as an improvised weapon of its weight, making attacks (possibly iterative attacks) and dealing damage as appropriate for its weight. If you successfully make an attack with this improvised weapon, the improvised weapon damage is also dealt to the pinned creature (so if you attack and hit an ogre while wielding a goblin, both the ogre and the wielded goblin take damage as appropriate for an improvised weapon of the goblin's weight).

Wrestling Champion: Any attack you make while grappling (including via Body Slam) increases its critical threat range by 1 (before multipliers are applied, if applicable), and increases its critical damage multiplier by 1.

Sleeper Lock: If the character pins his opponent while grappling and maintains the pin for 1 full round, the opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the reaping mauler's class level + the reaping mauler's Wis modifier) at the end of the round or fall unconscious for a number of rounds equal to your class level + your Wis modifier. You may spend a Stunning Fist attempt as a free action to force this saving throw immediately upon pinning the creature, instead of waiting. Creatures with no need to breathe are immune to this effect, while creatures with no discernible anatomy but a need to breathe are not immune (instead gaining a +4 bonus to the save).

Inescapable: No creature is beyond your ability to grapple, so long as they are within arms' reach. If a spell prevents you from grappling a creature, or allows the creature to automatically escape, it does not, but instead gives a bonus to the appropriate grapple checks equal to the spell's caster level. Additionally, you can grapple incorporeal creatures as if they were corporeal, although they gain a bonus equal to their Hit Dice and may use their Dexterity or Charisma in place of their Strength for grappling purposes against you (their choice).

Devastating Grapple: If the character pins his opponent while grappling and maintains the pin for 2 full rounds (or for 1 full round if their opponent is unconscious for that whole round), the opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the reaping mauler's class level + the reaping mauler's Wis modifier) at the end of the round or instantly die. You may spend two Stunning Fist attempts as a free action to force this saving throw immediately upon pinning the creature, instead of waiting. Creatures immune to precision damage or with no discernible anatomy are not immune to this effect (instead gaining a +4 to the save).

Legendary Wrestler: You gain Legendary Wrestler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryWrestler) and Epic Reputation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicReputation) as bonus feats, even if you do not qualify for them.

Multiclass Note: A monk who becomes a tattooed monk may continue advancing as a monk.

[eggynack]

Now can you be cool at grappling? Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) That spell lasts over an hour when you originally get it, it can be persisted by a DMM addict or metamagicking wizard recreating it via Limited Wish (or who snagged it via Arcane Disciple, Wyrm Wizard, or something similar), or maybe an Artificer just made a ring of it for 40000 gp at the most (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement) (a real high-level Artificer would probably make it in exchange for 13500 gp, 1200 XP, and 30 days time, but ehhhh). Yes, that's a core lvl 4 spell that completely negates your entire playstyle, and short of taking the spell away from your grapple target, there's no way around it.
That's just the beginning, too. Heart of water just kinda stays up all day. Various tactical teleportation options don't even require action beforehand. Druids and clerics can be straightforwardly good at grappling. Druids can wild shape into a blink dog or tarterian dragon to access some of the aforementioned options on the spot given the right feats. Casters live and breathe ways to shut off grappling, which sucks because they're the classes you want to grapple the most.

[AvatarVecna]

That's just the beginning, too. Heart of water just kinda stays up all day. Various tactical teleportation options don't even require action beforehand. Druids and clerics can be straightforwardly good at grappling. Druids can wild shape into a blink dog or tarterian dragon to access some of the aforementioned options on the spot given the right feats. Casters live and breathe ways to shut off grappling, which sucks because they're the classes you want to grapple the most.

All excellent points. Honestly, in my fix I didn't even think of tactical teleportation and it shows, but overall I think my attempt is okayish; making a grappler that can actually successfully grapple a spellcaster working hard to avoid it is probably an impossible task, so my counters for anti-grapple tactics are much more general with the intention of preventing buffed up non-casters from being ungrapple-able, while making you actually good enough at grappling to seriously compete with other melee builds.

[Waker]

All excellent points. Honestly, in my fix I didn't even think of tactical teleportation and it shows, but overall I think my attempt is okayish; making a grappler that can actually successfully grapple a spellcaster working hard to avoid it is probably an impossible task, so my counters for anti-grapple tactics are much more general with the intention of preventing buffed up non-casters from being ungrapple-able, while making you actually good enough at grappling to seriously compete with other melee builds.

I think it does just fine. Planing for everything is impossible, especially for a mundane. There is one small mistake though.

Multiclass Note: A monk who becomes a tattooed monk may continue advancing as a monk.

[AvatarVecna]

I think it does just fine. Planing for everything is impossible, especially for a mundane. There is one small mistake though.

Whoops. :smallredface: I'm glad I remembered to change it for Monk Abilities, at least. I'll fix it, particularly if I end up posting it in the homebrew sub-forum. As it stands, I think it boosts unarmed damage and grappling capabilities enough to be good even for non-Monks. :smallsmile:

[Endarire]

Bear Warrior, printed in the same book, would likely grapple better due to Bear Wild Shape.

And Druids (and Wild Shape Rangers) could also probably do this grapplin' thing better.

[zergling.exe]

PLEASE DO NOT SAY GIVE IT SPELLCASTING

At-will evard's black tentacles that can use all your grappling class features. CL equals double your Reaping Mauler class level. :smallcool:

edit: Supernatural of course. Can't have that pesky spell resistance blocking your whole schtick. And silences anyone it successfully grapples. Very important.

[ShurikVch]

Now can you be cool at grappling? Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) That spell lasts over an hour when you originally get it, it can be persisted by a DMM addict or metamagicking wizard recreating it via Limited Wish (or who snagged it via Arcane Disciple, Wyrm Wizard, or something similar), or maybe an Artificer just made a ring of it for 40000 gp at the most (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement) (a real high-level Artificer would probably make it in exchange for 13500 gp, 1200 XP, and 30 days time, but ehhhh). Yes, that's a core lvl 4 spell that completely negates your entire playstyle, and short of taking the spell away from your grapple target, there's no way around it.And this is one more proof of 3.5 authors hatred to non-casters: text about auto-success on grapple check or EA check appeared only in 3.5

Even more - cases of Freedom of Movement (), where they aren't slacked by saying "as the spell", suspiciously, protecting only against either the movement-impeding magic - like for Tarterian Dragon, Dark Hunter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a), or Travel domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#travelDomain); or environment-based hindrances - such as for Scaled Horror or Ancestral Avenger PrCs

[The Viscount]

The majority of the good points have already been covered, but I want to emphasize that devastating grapple needs to be replaced.

The ability should never come up. It requires 3 rounds of continuous pinning, which is hard enough with the numbers a reaping mauler would have, but if you want to kill an opponent, you'll knock them out with sleeper hold after one round, and then CDG them when they are unconscious and thus helpless. There do exist a theoretical set of circumstances where you are not capable of delivering the CDG because you're grappling with say, a troll, but this doesn't seem a common enough occurrence to justify the existence of the ability.