First Game of 4E, question for my character [Archive]

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Chijinda

2017-07-30, 10:10 PM

Hi all.

I'm starting my first game of 4e pretty soon, which may be shaping up to be the first full and proper game of D&D I've played with a competent DM. I'm running an Eladrin Rogue, and I cannot make up my mind as to whether I want to take Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel.

For what it's worth, my Rogue is starting out with 13 Strength and 14 Charisma, however, their Dexterity is 18. If I understand the rules correctly, since you always take the higher of the two scores, never stack them, this means that even against Opportunity Attacks, I would still use my Dexterity rather than my Charisma, making Artful Dodger a complete waste, except for the purposes of helping my Exploits (and it seems like a LOT more Exploits use Artful Dodger than Brutal Scoundrel).

However, with 13 strength, the damage bonus on Brutal Scoundrel seems kind of.... minimal. Even if I increase my strength down the line, is a +2 damage bonus REALLY worth that much over whatever benefits I may get for Exploits with Artful Dodger (since from my brief reading, 13 strength doesn't really seem to actually help with a lot of Brutal Scoundrel Exploit bonuses).

So I'm kind of torn between the two, and figured I might ask people with significantly more experience with the system than myself which is probably going to be better on my character.

Meta

2017-07-31, 09:15 AM

Thanks so much for this tip. If what you said is true, then Artful Dodger is definitely looking appealing. So the Charisma modifier IS stacked on top of my regular AC? That's great. For some reason I thought the "no stacking" rule applied here as well. And yeah, I'm definitely looking at more of a manipulator Rogue than one that jumps headfirst into battles.

Party composition is a Paladin, Cleric, Warlock, plus my Rogue, for all the difference it makes.

The key phrases to look for in this case, and in general when looking to see what stacks, are:

'Charisma is added' whereas it could be phrased 'used instead of'
and
'added as bonus' rather than 'feat bonus, power bonus,' etc. Since it simply says 'bonus' it's "untyped" which means it stacks with everything other than itself (You can't get the same named bonus multiple times)

The party comp already has a fair chance of having a good social encounter character so the high CHA won't matter too much, but you may be the only other melee PC besides the Paladin, and none of those classes really enable a ton of combat advantage (A shaman is a good example of a class that helps his/her team always have CA) so you'll be on your own for getting it with flanking, cold damage, etc. That makes dodger more attractive. Hope you have fun with it!

Kurald Galain

2017-07-31, 12:05 PM

Getting a permanent +2 to all damage rolls is very good (from level 4 and up; and note that a well-played rogue will be making sneak attacks pretty much all the time). Getting the dodger's various bonuses is also good.

They're both fine, really. It all depends on whether you want a more offensive or a more defensive character.

ThePurple

2017-07-31, 09:27 PM

They're both fine, really. It all depends on whether you want a more offensive or a more defensive character.

In general, where 4e is concerned, offensive improvements are more valuable than defensive improvements because, in a well coordinated group, the defender should be getting attacked at least twice as often as everyone else (diminishing the relative importance of defensive stats for anyone but the tank) and, whenever possible, concentrating their fire on the same target (which will kill off individual enemies faster, reducing the number of enemies attacking the party each round, which decreasing incoming damage significantly).

Chijinda

2017-08-01, 09:48 PM

In general, where 4e is concerned, offensive improvements are more valuable than defensive improvements because, in a well coordinated group, the defender should be getting attacked at least twice as often as everyone else (diminishing the relative importance of defensive stats for anyone but the tank) and, whenever possible, concentrating their fire on the same target (which will kill off individual enemies faster, reducing the number of enemies attacking the party each round, which decreasing incoming damage significantly).

I considered this as well, but I guess at the end of the day, my question is, past level 4 (or whenever it is I'd be able to boost my Strength up to 14), is a +2 bonus to damage (even IF I'm getting a Sneak Attack every round), really going to change that much? If the actual statistical bonus isn't going to be that amazing either way, then it feels like I should probably just look at how it affects my Exploits. But like I said, I have really limited experience with the system, so I don't know if I'm either missing something, or if that +1/+2 to damage really DOES make a big difference.

Kurald Galain

2017-08-02, 12:59 AM

I considered this as well, but I guess at the end of the day, my question is, past level 4 (or whenever it is I'd be able to boost my Strength up to 14), is a +2 bonus to damage (even IF I'm getting a Sneak Attack every round), really going to change that much?

Your argument here is basically that a +2 to one thing (damage) is not a big difference whereas a +2 to another thing (AC-vs-opportunity-attacks) is a big difference. If you think about it, that can't be right.

And yes, you will be getting a sneak attack every round if you play your rogue right.

Chijinda

2017-08-02, 01:12 AM

Your argument here is basically that a +2 to one thing (damage) is not a big difference whereas a +2 to another thing (AC-vs-opportunity-attacks) is a big difference. If you think about it, that can't be right.

And yes, you will be getting a sneak attack every round if you play your rogue right.

My argument is less that +2 damage isn't a big thing and +2 AC is, it's "does +2 damage outweigh all the benefits Artful Dodger adds to Rogue Exploits?" I skimmed through the Rogue Exploits and there are very few that Brutal Scoundrel buffs, and even then those buffs seem minimal if the character lacks high strength, while there are a decent number that benefit from having Artful Dodger, even with just "okay" Charisma (even as early as Repositioning Strike).

Kurald Galain

2017-08-02, 01:49 AM

there are a decent number that benefit from having Artful Dodger, even with just "okay" Charisma (even as early as Repositioning Strike).

While there are a good amount of powers that are boosted by Artful Dodger, I don't remember any of these sticking out. That is, as far as I recall, these powers are either just weak picks in general, or the bonus they get from AD is fiddly rather than actually useful. I could be wrong as I haven't played a rogue in some time, but please provide some examples of good powers that get a good benefit from AD.

For instance with Positioning Strike, moving an enemy two squares rather than one square is not very impressive, and I don't think I'd be taking that particular power in the first place.

Chijinda

2017-08-02, 01:56 AM

While there are a good amount of powers that are boosted by Artful Dodger, I don't remember any of these sticking out. That is, as far as I recall, these powers are either just weak picks in general, or the bonus they get from AD is fiddly rather than actually useful. I could be wrong as I haven't played a rogue in some time, but please provide some examples of good powers that get a good benefit from AD.

For instance with Positioning Strike, moving an enemy two squares rather than one square is not very impressive, and I don't think I'd be taking that particular power in the first place.

As a player who likes looking for unorthodox solutions or using the environment in fights, stuff like Repositioning Strike appealed to me, because the ability to FORCE an opponent to move in a direction I want seemed perfect for the style of combat I like to try. Just using Repositionibg Strike I like the idea of using it to shove an opponent out an open window, into his companion and knock them both over to open up an attack from another party member or otherwise into some manner of hazard, and be able to otherwise create advantageous situations 1 or 2 extra points of damage would not (even if it's as simple as using RS to push a guy into a piece of furniture or trip him over a tree root in the woods)

Kurald Galain

2017-08-02, 02:39 AM

Just using Repositionibg Strike I like the idea of using it to shove an opponent out an open window, into his companion and knock them both over to open up an attack from another party member or otherwise into some manner of hazard,

Yes, but be aware that this power doesn't actually do most of that.

tiornys

2017-08-02, 02:41 AM

When I play a Rogue, I almost always land on Brutal Scoundrel. I'm not here to try to convince you to play the same way that I do, but it might be helpful to you if I lay out some of my reasoning. Note that this is all colored by my strong preference for using Daggers and for playing a skirmishing style that is comfortable and effective in melee and at range.

Default benefits
+Str to Sneak Attack damage vs. +Cha to AC vs. Opportunity Attacks. One of these is a benefit that I hope to get at least once per round, while the other is a benefit that I hope never to rely on. Giving extra attacks to the enemy is dangerous, and is something to avoid if you can reasonably do so. Even with the AC bonus helping out, you're giving the enemy a significant chance to do extra damage, and that's before considering that many monsters can make OAs against non-AC defenses. Clear winner: Brutal Scoundrel.

Exploit riders
I like the Artful Dodger riders more than the Brutal Scoundrel riders, but in almost all cases I'd rather take a power that doesn't have a rider tied to either option. Here are my favorite encounter powers by level (plus honorable mentions, *=Brutal Scoundrel, **=Artful Dodger):

L1: Dazing Strike (Positioning Strike**, Unbalancing Shot)
L3: Low Slash (Darting Strike, Nasty Backswing*, Startling Offensive)
L7: Snap Shot (Circling Predator, Imperiling Strike*, Lashing Blade**)
L13: Stunning Strike
L17: Tumbling Strike

I haven't seen or played a Rogue in Epic, so I won't rate those powers. As you can see, the riders don't play a big role in my decision making. But with that said, this is still a minor win for Artful Dodger.

Other stat-based considerations
Higher Str grants a better native basic attack (better OAs, charges, granted attacks) and a better Athletics. Higher Cha grants better Bluff, Diplomacy, and Streetwise. I prefer the cat burglar/roof runner archetype more than the con man/swindler archetype, so I tend to favor Str in this comparison. That's reinforced by the fact that I find Rogues to be fairly feat-starved, so I like the reduced pressure to take Melee training. Furthermore, I find Wis to be significantly more important than Con for Rogues (mostly because of Perception), and a moderate Wis investment is less costly for a Brutal Scoundrel than for an Artful Dodger because of the way non-AC defenses line up. Overall, this is a win for Brutal Scoundrel.

Tactical considerations
One might evaluate the options by noting that Artful Dodger makes it easier to achieve combat advantage, while Brutal Scoundrel grants a better reward for having combat advantage. The way I build and play my Rogues, I almost never have trouble getting combat advantage. This is partly thanks to a good understanding of Stealth and how easily it can be exploited by Deft Strike, partly because I work at having good maneuverability options (things like Tumble and Boots of the Fencing Master), and partly because I have a strong grasp of tactical play in general and often play with other tactically inclined players. Consequently, for me, rewarding CA is better than helping me obtain CA, so this is another win for Brutal Scoundrel.

ThePurple

2017-08-02, 03:28 AM

One might evaluate the options by noting that Artful Dodger makes it easier to achieve combat advantage, while Brutal Scoundrel grants a better reward for having combat advantage.

Even if you're feat starved, Cunning Stalker (from HotFK) is an absolutely amazing feat that *any* Rogue should get asap since it can very easily trivialize getting CA: if an ally is already adjacent to the target, getting CA is pretty trivial already (since you can just move to flank and be done with it) so Cunning Stalker turns one of the few situations in which it is difficult to get CA (no allies next to it) into a friggin' guarantee. After you take Cunning Stalker, pretty much the only way not to get CA is to have the enemy fighting back to back with one of its allies.

There's other effective ways to virtually guarantee CA every round, too (Pack Outcast being the one that immediately comes to mind, for me), but Cunning Stalker is, in my experience, the most impressive.

Also, OP, something else to keep in mind is that Sneak Attack is actually once *per turn*, not once per round. This is an important distinction because it means that your opportunity attacks and any other attacks that you take when it's not your turn will *also* be able to deal Sneak Attack damage. While it's not particularly relevant for your current party (none of the classes you mentioned for the rest of the party are known for providing additional attacks to allies), if you do manage to get a Warlord (or Shaman) in there, it will matter *a lot*.

Kurald Galain

2017-08-02, 03:31 AM

Also, OP, something else to keep in mind is that Sneak Attack is actually once *per turn*, not once per round.

Yes. An obvious combo here is Riposte Strike.

tiornys

2017-08-02, 04:51 AM

Even if you're feat starved, Cunning Stalker (from HotFK) is an absolutely amazing feat that *any* Rogue should get asap since it can very easily trivialize getting CA: if an ally is already adjacent to the target, getting CA is pretty trivial already (since you can just move to flank and be done with it) so Cunning Stalker turns one of the few situations in which it is difficult to get CA (no allies next to it) into a friggin' guarantee. After you take Cunning Stalker, pretty much the only way not to get CA is to have the enemy fighting back to back with one of its allies.
Cunning Stalker is in my "nice but not necessary" pile of feats. Between Stealth, flanking, and various status ailments, CA is already easy enough to come by without this. That said, it is one of several ways to put CA on easy mode.

I could maybe see fitting it in after Light Blade Expertise, Backstabber, Nimble Blade, Slaying Action, Superior Will, and a good Multiclass feat, but by that point I'm already into Paragon tier and numerous juicy options there (not to mention that even at Heroic tier it's still competing with stuff like Improved Initiative, Grounding Shot, Skill Power, Improved Defense, plus feat chains like Frostcheese and TWF, and style feats, and... did I mention feat starved?).

ThePurple

2017-08-02, 06:05 AM

Slaying Action

Slaying Action is one of those in my "nice but not necessary" feat category, personally. Without explicitly building around AP abuse, you're talking about spending a feat to get an extra 2d8 damage (in heroic tier) once every 2 fights, assuming you hit with your first attack that turn. The campaigns I run tend to have fights that last between 5-8 rounds so it ends up being roughly 9 additional damage every ~13 rounds or so, which is pretty paltry, since the Rogues I've run games for tend to find themselves in a situation that benefits from Cunning Stalker significantly more often than they burn APs).

I run a pretty heavily houseruled game, however (and, admittedly, I give out Melee Training, a expertise feat of the PC's choice, and Improved Defenses for free at level 1, so they can spend feats on more "meaty" choices rather than just paying feat taxes), so ymmv. Still, even before all of the houserules, my players and I just never saw it as being a particularly high value feat (it's definitely better than Predatory Action, which is a total farce).

Chijinda

2017-08-02, 12:47 PM

First off thank you for the input. If I'm arguing about things I know nothing about, it's because I'm undecided (though starting to lean Brutal Scoundrel).

Second, how much of a difference does it make if my group is ONLY using the CRB, and the feats and Exploits within?

Yakk

2017-08-02, 01:12 PM

Which CRB?

Chijinda

2017-08-02, 01:42 PM

Player's Handbook: Arcane, Divine and Martial Heroes.

tiornys

2017-08-02, 02:51 PM

Slaying Action is one of those in my "nice but not necessary" feat category, personally. Without explicitly building around AP abuse, you're talking about spending a feat to get an extra 2d8 damage (in heroic tier) once every 2 fights, assuming you hit with your first attack that turn. The campaigns I run tend to have fights that last between 5-8 rounds so it ends up being roughly 9 additional damage every ~13 rounds or so, which is pretty paltry, since the Rogues I've run games for tend to find themselves in a situation that benefits from Cunning Stalker significantly more often than they burn APs).

I run a pretty heavily houseruled game, however (and, admittedly, I give out Melee Training, a expertise feat of the PC's choice, and Improved Defenses for free at level 1, so they can spend feats on more "meaty" choices rather than just paying feat taxes), so ymmv. Still, even before all of the houserules, my players and I just never saw it as being a particularly high value feat (it's definitely better than Predatory Action, which is a total farce).
Since I'm viewing things through the lens of a dagger-wielding Brutal Scoundrel, Slaying Action is actually about 11-12 extra damage, and that's more damage on average than a 1[W]+Dex hit. Basically, it's a nova-enhancing feat, and I rate nova enabling rather high on my general priorities since taking out a key enemy early in combat tends to lead to shorter and less dangerous combats.

Getting the feat taxes for free definitely frees up some room for Cunning Stalker. I still might go another direction (TWF+TWD is appealing), but I could potentially see myself taking it depending on party and typical battlefield layouts.

First off thank you for the input. If I'm arguing about things I know nothing about, it's because I'm undecided (though starting to lean Brutal Scoundrel).

Second, how much of a difference does it make if my group is ONLY using the CRB, and the feats and Exploits within?
PHB only, hmm? My preferred At-Will powers (Deft Strike and Piercing Strike) are unaffected, as are my preferred L1 and L13 encounter powers. I'm even more inclined to use Daggers since Rapier access is significantly harder to come by, and Daggermaster is an excellent paragon path.

At level 3 none of my HMs are from PHB, so hmmm... I guess I'd be happy with either Topple Over or Bait and Switch (both more accurate than normal), with the positioning from Bait and Switch looking a little better than prone from Topple Over (plus 2[W] vs. 1[W]). So this is a bit of a pull towards Artful Dodger. However, at L7, Brutal Scoundrel can still use one of my HMs in Imperiling Strike, whereas I'd likely take Sand in the Eyes over Rogue's Luck as an Artful Dodger. At level 17, I'm inclined to take Dragon Tail Strike regardless of build (especially if I MC Fighter or Paladin).

Seems like a lot of the Artful Dodger riders that I like don't come in the PHB, so this actually pushes me a little closer to Brutal Scoundrel.

Having only the PHB also limits you quite a bit on feat choices, and there are more feats I like for a Rogue gated by Str (Far Throw, Armor Prof: Hide, maybe Surprise Knockdown, Blade Opportunist, or Powerful Charge) than by Cha (Fast Runner, maybe Press the Advantage). This also pushes me closer to Brutal Scoundrel.

With PHB only, Melee Training doesn't exist, so your opportunity attacks (i.e. your ability to influence the battlefield with your presence) are definitely going to be determined by your Str. Again, this pushes me towards Brutal Scoundrel.

Edit to add: with PHB only, you don't have access to very many of the things that put CA generation on easy mode. I recommend getting familiar with how Stealth works and how you can usually exploit it for easy combat advantage given Deft Strike plus some blocking terrain (walls, trees, pillars, etc.). Even a single square of blocking terrain is usually good enough to let you Move-Stealth-Deft Strike with CA every round. Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447238-The-Rules-of-Hidden-Club-I-Think-I-Failed-A-Spot-Check) to a thread that goes into some detail about how Stealth works.

Chijinda

2017-08-06, 09:24 PM

Thanks for all the advice here. I've decided to take Brutal Scoundrel this time, as I've talked with my party, and our Paladin has pointed out to me that several of his abilities (I think it's called Challenge or something like that?) will go a long way to preventing AoO's in the first place. Though I may try out Artful Dodger in another game in the future for flavor. Last question; are there any "must have" feats or "trap feats" that I should be aware of? I'm starting with Backstabber, while Improved Initiative/Quick Draw, Jack of All Trades, Nimble Blade and Weapon Focus all look really appealing.

masteraleph

2017-08-06, 11:05 PM

The usual "must have" recommendations are Light Blade Expertise or Weapon Expertise and Improved Defenses, but if you're only using PHB1 then you don't have access to them. Nimble Blade, at least, does some substitution for Expertise at low levels. Otherwise, you've pretty much hit on the worthwhile heroic tier feats that are out there.

Kurald Galain

2017-08-07, 03:40 AM

Last question; are there any "must have" feats or "trap feats" that I should be aware of? I'm starting with Backstabber, while Improved Initiative/Quick Draw, Jack of All Trades, Nimble Blade and Weapon Focus all look really appealing.
Backstabber is overrated but still decent, and if it's PHB1-only you don't really have better options.

Jack of all Trades is actually a trap feat. You have plenty of trained skills and should focus on using those; your untrained skills aren't all that relevant.

Quick Draw is better than Imp Init if you have access to a lot of low-level weapons/implements with useful powers. If not, Imp Init is better.

The one thing you're missing is a multiclass feat. Especially in PHB1-only, you should take one of those ASAP. A good pick is the Ranger one for the damage boost, and you can even consider power swapping for the Disruptive Strike encounter power. Another decent one is the Warlord multiclass for an emergency healing ability, or the Wizard one if you want to use implements.

masteraleph

2017-08-07, 12:59 PM

Forgot that Disruptive Strike was PHB1- that's actually a really nice power to have around.

MeeposFire

2017-08-10, 12:30 AM

As a player who likes looking for unorthodox solutions or using the environment in fights, stuff like Repositioning Strike appealed to me, because the ability to FORCE an opponent to move in a direction I want seemed perfect for the style of combat I like to try. Just using Repositionibg Strike I like the idea of using it to shove an opponent out an open window, into his companion and knock them both over to open up an attack from another party member or otherwise into some manner of hazard, and be able to otherwise create advantageous situations 1 or 2 extra points of damage would not (even if it's as simple as using RS to push a guy into a piece of furniture or trip him over a tree root in the woods)

Funny enough if you want a rogue type character that moves enemies around the bard is would actually eb right up your alley. The bard is great at moving enemies and also very good at moving allies it is probably the best overall chess master in the game as I recall at least on the whole and with its ability to multiclass so easily and steal their stuff if there is one power you want you can probably get it.

Chijinda

2017-08-10, 02:27 AM

Funny enough if you want a rogue type character that moves enemies around the bard is would actually eb right up your alley. The bard is great at moving enemies and also very good at moving allies it is probably the best overall chess master in the game as I recall at least on the whole and with its ability to multiclass so easily and steal their stuff if there is one power you want you can probably get it.

Sadly, Bard is not one of the available classes in the PHB we're using, but I'll keep that in mind. Though I would say I prefer fighting in unorthodox ways, not NECESSARILY moving the opponent around. Whether it be shooting the steam vent next to an enemy, plugging an exploding barrel, cutting the ropes on the bridge, etc. If there is an action that is beneficial and more than jus: "I attack the enemy, lemme make my attack roll and damage" then those are the moves I tend to gravitate towards.

Saint Jimmy

2017-08-10, 07:35 AM

Whether it be shooting the steam vent next to an enemy, plugging an exploding barrel, cutting the ropes on the bridge, etc. If there is an action that is beneficial and more than jus: "I attack the enemy, lemme make my attack roll and damage" then those are the moves I tend to gravitate towards.

Honestly I think any class can do that, as long as the DM is ok with it.

darkbard

2017-08-10, 12:00 PM

Honestly I think any class can do that, as long as the DM is ok with it.

Indeed. What Chijinda describes is flavor, not mechanics. 4E took great pains to divorce the two: the powers have the mechanical effects they say they have, but the flavor text is always mutable. Chijinda, feel free to describe your powers however you like (with gorup buy in, of course); the italicized text is only a suggestion.

Chijinda

2017-08-10, 02:09 PM

Indeed. What Chijinda describes is flavor, not mechanics. 4E took great pains to divorce the two: the powers have the mechanical effects they say they have, but the flavor text is always mutable. Chijinda, feel free to describe your powers however you like (with gorup buy in, of course); the italicized text is only a suggestion.

I'm more or less aware of that. My comments on Re-positioning Strike and similar abilities was simply that it's nice to be able to have Class abilities that facilitate that kind of gameplay, and that Artful Dodger made doing that easier, by making those effects stronger.

But thanks very much for all the help on this matter, you've all really helped me streamline my Rogue that hopefully won't be too much of a burden on the group while I work out the system :)