The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Inevitability]

Please post in the new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552564-The-LA-Assignment-Thread-IV-Live-Free-or-Hit-Die-Hard&p=22889451), thanks in advance.

Welcome to the third LA-assignment thread!

For people confused about this thread's purpose, see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread).

The archive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987) has a list of all creatures and templates reviewed up to this point. Links to earlier threads can also be found there, as well as a brief explanation of some of the terminology used in this thread.

[Inevitability]

Satyr

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG220.jpg

The third thread already? You've goat to be kidding me.

Satyrs have 5 fey RHD (bad with good skill points). Their ability scores are bland: they get a flat +2 to every stat but strength, which stays where it is. They're slightly faster than humans, have low DR overcome by cold iron weapons, get Alertness as a bonus feat and have one natural attack. They also receive bonuses to a few skills, some of which are actually quite useful.

However, all that simply isn't worth filling a quarter of your build with subpar RHD. Satyrs simply can't really do anything that's worth the investment. -0 LA.


Satyr with pipes

This pseudo-variant can create Fear, Sleep, and Charm Person effects as a standard action that affect all creatures in a large area, but while immunizing your allies is easy they're low-level spells one easily gains immunity to. Still a -0, but one that's just barely not worth playing.

[javcs]

Concur with -0.

Honestly, I'm not all that sure that Pipes are really worth a +0. Sleep is useless. Charm Person is still moderately useful, but at level 5, non-humanoids start becoming more common, plus it's a Mind-Affecting effect. Fear is a mind-affecting fear effect, and all the downsides inherent there - namely just how many entities are immune and how easy it is to get immunity and/or significant save bonuses, but for those vulnerable, it can be useful. On the upside as a (Su) effect, the DC should scale decently.


Satyrs just don't have enough magical ability to compensate for their lack of nonmagical ability (or vice versa, as one prefers).

[Wristlet Eater]

I think Charm Person and Fear at will is worth +0 at level 5. They can still be good in many situations, and Charm Person even more outside combat.

[Thurbane]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41sPioshqpL.jpg


Medium fey; 5 RHD (poor BAB, two good saves, 6 skill points/HD [quadruple at 1st); 40 ft move; +4 natural attack bonus; 1 natural attack; Dex +2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2 (net +8 to ability scores). Aside for the RHD, not terrible, but not great either.
Solid skill list; +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, and Spot checks; Alertness as a bonus feat; proficient with the short bow. With 5 RHD and poor BAB, your best role is probably skillmonkey. You won't suck at it, but you won't be as good as someone without RHD.
DR 5/cold iron - not bad, but quickly becomes less relevant at mid levels; Pipes - can produce two 1st level and one 4th levels spell effect as an Su ability, at will; Sleep is garbage at mid levels; Charm Person is effectively Mass due to the AoE, so not too shabby; and Fear isn't too bad; unfortunately immunity to Charm and Fear effects becomes more and more common, and your charm is useless on anything other than Humanoids to begin with. On the plus side, not blocked by SR.


Pros: minor ability boosts, pipes that can produce some OKish effects, +4 natural AC and minor DR.
Cons: 5 RHD.

I think you could do OK as some kind of skillmonkey - I mean, losing 5 class levels hurts, of course. Your pipes are going to start losing relevance at anything above low-mid levels. I don't think you suck enough for LA -0, so I'm voting LA +0.

[danielxcutter]

First, thanks for choosing my idea! I wasn't expecting it to be so popular!

As for the Satyr, sounds right to me.

[Waker]

Won't bother with a full breakdown, since there aren't really too many ambiguities. Fey HD are low (d6), have terrible BAB, two good saves and a large number of skill points. The Satyr's skill list is decent. The pipes will mostly be useful at 5th level, but will quickly lose significance due to immunities and an increased chance of running into non-humanoids. LA -0 seems fine for non-pipes, and LA 0 with pipes is also good.

[Remuko]

-0 seems fitting to me. Agree.

[Random Sanity]

So, a bunch of status-effect abilities that largely follow the videogame trope of being a waste of your turn to activate, plus an assortment of minor stat and skill buffs, all supported - or rather undermined - by 5 laughable RHD. Seriously, with the reputation fey creatures have in most mythology as beings not to be messed with, why are fey HD so terrible? An equal-HD commoner could probably beat the average fey into the ground in a straight brawl.

LA -0, even with the pipes.

[Mike Miller]

I agree , -0 even with the pipes. The satyr just won't hold up his end of the party.

[RedWarlock]

Tagging in for thread-watching.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Fey are just weird creatures in D&D. They aren't usually enemies and even when they are, they tend to be annoyances more than deadly.

[Thurbane]

Fey are just weird creatures in D&D. They aren't usually enemies and even when they are, they tend to be annoyances more than deadly.

Often true, but then, the appropriately named Murderjack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a). :smalleek:

[Jormengand]

Definitely -0 for either. The ability to use some third-rate abilities which you would already know if you'd had the temerity to be a bard, let alone a real caster, even at will, is not enough to save the fact that you spent 5 levels doing nothing useful.

[Wristlet Eater]

Definitely -0 for either. The ability to use some third-rate abilities which you would already know if you'd had the temerity to be a bard, let alone a real caster, even at will, is not enough to save the fact that you spent 5 levels doing nothing useful.

I don't know, Mass Charm Person is pretty good at level 5 and you are starting at level 5, you don't have to play the other 4 levels because it's RHD, not a class.

[Jormengand]

I don't know, Mass Charm Person is pretty good at level 5 and you are starting at level 5, you don't have to play the other 4 levels because it's RHD, not a class.

By "Spent 5 levels doing nothing useful" I mean "Spent [as in, the way you spend resources, not experience time] five of your levels [as in, the resource which a class level represents] doing nothing useful [doing nothing useful, such as aquiring real spellcasting]".

[Random Sanity]

By "Spent 5 levels doing nothing useful" I mean "Spent [as in, the way you spend resources, not experience time] five of your levels [as in, the resource which a class level represents] doing nothing useful [doing nothing useful, such as aquiring real spellcasting]".

I would argue that even levels in a martial class would be superior to five levels of fey. At least you could swing a weapon and expect to hit something.

[Inevitability]

LA of the pipes satyr changed to -0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I hope you understand I'm not going to make heavy use of a houseruled mechanic that only functions properly if a few other important rules get altered as well. If you want negative LA in your games, be my guest, but I'm not going to implement it.
I've considered doing some analysis on negative LA, but never got around to doing more than a couple monsters.




Seriously, with the reputation fey creatures have in most mythology as beings not to be messed with, why are fey HD so terrible? An equal-HD commoner could probably beat the average fey into the ground in a straight brawl.
Doubt it. Fey might have a decent weapon proficiency, probably have better ability scores, and definitely have a hit point or so per HD up on the commoner.
Besides, the Fair Folk weren't dangerous because they punched people real good. They were dangerous because they were cunning, eldritch, and amoral.

[Inevitability]

Sea Cat

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG221.jpg

I'm just going to borrow some first-grade snark from this brilliant article here (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm).


Oh my, as sea cat and a sea tiger...these are most definitely not related to the incredibly lame sea lion. Nope. These are totally different and definitely not revamped versions of something Timmy drew after recess one day. I wonder if little Timmy got to design any other monsters?

So yeah, sea cats. They're basically what you'd expect: magical beasts with a moderate amount of HD (6, to be specific), the old claw/claw/bite set of attacks, and a reasonable rake ability that can only take effect when both claws hit.

Ability scores are okay, with the familiar high-strength, high-constitution, average-dexterity pattern accompanying an abysmal intelligence.

Sea cats, however, greatly diminish in usefulness once one takes a closer look at them. Their swim speed is 40 feet, which is decent, but their land speed a mere 10. Furthermore, they can't actually breathe underwater; merely hold their breath for a dozen minutes or so. This means that a sea cat can only properly function in aquatic environments where it still can surface a few times each hour. That means no underwater caverns, no plane of water, and absolutely no solid ground, which is obviously a giant limiter on in what situations sea cats are desirable characters.

To be honest, I think -0 LA is okay here. Limited range of adventuring locations aside, sea cats aren't that competitive when compared to other, similarly-leveled magical beasts. Owlbears, for example, have strictly better stats and one less HD, and manticores have flight, as well as superior ability scores.

[Caelestion]

Huh. I'd totally forgotten that they were even in the MM.

[Remuko]

Yikes -0 indeed.

[Thurbane]

https://4everstatic.com/obrazky/674xX/kreslene/digital-art/macka,-more-166070.jpg


Large magic beast (no reach); 6 RHD (full bab, 2 good saves); move 10 ft/swim 40 ft; +8 natural AC; 3 natural attacks; Str +8,. Dex +2, Con +6, Int -8, Wis +2 (net +10, but -8 to Int hurts); decent melee chassis, but very limited by environment.
Small skill set; -8 to Int; racial bonus to swim; lets face it, skills just aren't your thing.
Hold Breath - so, you're not even truly aquatic; Rend - nice, as it goes; darvision, low light vision, scent - your senses are quite impressive.


Pros: good physical stats, decent natural AC, rend and scent
Cons: your land speed sucks, massive hit to Int, and even if the campaign is entirely aquatic, you'll have to come bobbing up to the surface on a regular basis.

All in all, I'm in agreement with LA -0.

[No brains]

Another creature that perfectly fits the 'monster' bill; just more cannon fodder with claw/claw/bite. It sucks too much to play as, but it can annoy some hp out of a player for a few seconds.

Without derailing too much, is the sea cat even a useful creature? 40ft is actually sort of a slow swim speed, so I don't know if they are even a fearsome predator compared to other aquatic animals. I think sharks and porpoises can swim at 60ft, so there's not much a sea cat can really take down. Are there any creatures that could ecologically support a large, slow seagoing predator?

[Flickerdart]

Why is this even a magical beast?

[Wristlet Eater]

Why is this even a magical beast?

Same reason as owlbear

[RedWarlock]

There used to be three creature types in 3.0: Animal (real world animals), Beast (dire animals, dinosaurs, and fantasy beasts without magic; the Beast type had better BAB(?), saves and HD than Animal), Magical Beast (creatures with explicit magic powers).

In 3.5, this was condensed to two. Dires and such went to Animal, while fantasy critters of any sort became Magical Beasts. Roc and a few other outliers remained animals, but it separated by mainly what a Druid could affect/control/turn into.

[javcs]

Why is this even a magical beast?

Most, if not all, creatures of the Animal type are creatures that exist, existed, or would plausibly fit in Earth's evolutionary history. Or are close.

I suppose this "Sea Cat" is a bit too far away from being historically plausible. At least, for whomever was involved in creating it.


But seriously, the line(s) between the "Animal", "Magical Beast", and "Vermin" creature types can get blurry around the edges at times.

[Thurbane]

Yep, there's always stupid exceptions like Roc (or Battletitan) being an animal...

3.0 also had the Beast type, just to muddy the waters a little more.

[Morphic tide]

Yep, there's always stupid exceptions like Roc (or Battletitan) being an animal...

3.0 also had the Beast type, just to muddy the waters a little more.

Actually, Beast type made things clearer. As mentioned, it's for dinos and Dire creatures. Big, beefy animals that deserve to be big and beefy mechanically, therefore getting different HD to make it so.

[Luccan]

Actually, Beast type made things clearer. As mentioned, it's for dinos and Dire creatures. Big, beefy animals that deserve to be big and beefy mechanically, therefore getting different HD to make it so.

Although I seem to recall Beasts were called out as not having existed (because it was also given to things that were clearly never real animals, but didn't qualify as Magical Beasts) but could have, so it was always weird to me to see dinosaurs thrown into that group.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, Beast type made things clearer. As mentioned, it's for dinos and Dire creatures. Big, beefy animals that deserve to be big and beefy mechanically, therefore getting different HD to make it so.
Well, I do feel that different HDs should be used only for creatures that are fundamentally different (in-universe), and I don't see why dinosaurs would be different from ostriches. Big and beefy can be expressed by STR/CON/NA/size/natural weapon damage.

[lord_khaine]

Well, I do feel that different HDs should be used only for creatures that are fundamentally different (in-universe), and I don't see why dinosaurs would be different from ostriches. Big and beefy can be expressed by STR/CON/NA/size/natural weapon damage.

On one hand a HD difference can just as well be expressed in a racial +2 con bonus. But by the same reasoning all humans should be locked in d4 HD like a commoner.

[Thurbane]

The type designations are a bit arbitrary. Here's just some Animals that never existed (not even include some of the more questionable Dire animals):


Bat, Desmodu Guard
Bat, Desmodu War
Carcass Eater
Chordevoc
Fhorge
Legendary Animal
Nifern
Phynxkin
Roc
Sailsnake
Tressym (although that may have been errata'd?)

With that illustrious list, there's really no reason to classify things like the Sea Cat as Magical Beasts. IMHO, if it isn't intelligent and doesn't have any magical powers, it should probably be an Animal.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't make a big difference, but the classification of some monsters does bother me a bit.

[Inevitability]

Shadow

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG222a.jpg

The shadow (the shadow? the shadow!) is another of those monsters that I doubt was ever actually playtested. CR 3 incorporeal undead that deal ability damage? Sure, just let me cast Disrupt Undead a dozen times at it and hope I miraculously survive its attacks.

At only 3 RHD, shadows come quite cheap. Their ability scores are okay: strength and constitution they obviously lack and intelligence is low, but the other stats all receive bonuses. Their only movement mode is 40 ft. fly speed, and they have +2 turn resistance. In addition to this, shadows also gain bonuses to listen, spot, and search, and a variable bonus/penalty on hide checks depending on ambient light levels.

Their incorporeal touch deals 1d6 strength damage, kills people it reduces to 0 strength, and turns them into more shadows (which you control) if they're humanoid. Ah yes, because having limitless self-replicating incorporeal undead are not a problematic ability at all. For the purpose of rating these creatures, I won't be assuming infinite spawn-creation is in play: the reasons should be obvious.

In the end, I could see a LA of +3* LA being in order here. This way, shadows are at a slightly lower ECL than allips, which remain competitive thanks to Babble and better stats.


Greater Shadow

Yes, it's just a regular shadow with more HD, slightly better stats, and an improved damage die, but regular shadow abilities are fairly competitive at ECL 9. I guess I'll just assign +0* to this one and see how it goes.

[Celestia]

I'm not a fan of really high LAs, but I do think it's justified in this case. If the shadow had more RHD, I'd vote for something lower as I don't believe these traits are really worth a +4. However, you just can't have a shadow trying to fit in with a level five party. That won't work.

Edit: This might be the only time I've thought you went too low, weird as it may be. I think the greater shadow should still be at least +1 for the incoporealness. That's still going to shut down a lot of stuff.

[ViperMagnum357]

Incorporeal Undead that self replicates, has a non-constitution ability damage attack that kills you at 0 anyway, and turn resistance because why not. That sounds like a non-boss battle for a full group of first level characters. Oh, wait-

Show of hands for people who first gained appreciation after running the Sunless Citadel as the opening session for a campaign?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Self-replication, especially limitless, is good cause for a warning sign, which could lower LA, as you remove it from normal considerations.
I don't think the ability damage scales very well, which is problematic, but you can optimize the number of attacks, I suppose. You can't hurt undead or constructs.
Incorporeality is good at all ECLs, and hard to replicate at this ECL.
Summon undead IV can get you an allip. Summon undead V can get you a shadow, or two allips.
+4 with spawn seems fair enough. +3 without spawn would be fine.

[lord_khaine]

With that illustrious list, there's really no reason to classify things like the Sea Cat as Magical Beasts. IMHO, if it isn't intelligent and doesn't have any magical powers, it should probably be an Animal.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't make a big difference, but the classification of some monsters does bother me a bit.

Well.. one could argue that since its tougher (d10 HD) and stronger? faster? (full BAB), as well as able to see perfectly in the dark, then it is a creature with a supernatural edge, and therefore a magical beast.

[Waker]

Well.. one could argue that since its tougher (d10 HD) and stronger? faster? (full BAB), as well as able to see perfectly in the dark, then it is a creature with a supernatural edge, and therefore a magical beast.
The reasons you gave for it being a magical beast are only there because it's a magical beast. The d10, BAB and darkvision are all aspects of the magical beast HD.

Anyways, I'll do a breakdown of the shadow.

The Good
-Undead immunities and d12 HD
-40ft flight speed (Good)
-1d6 Strength drain is mean. On top of killing people when it reaches 0, you create another shadow.
-Create Spawn. Being able to create a limitless supply of minions is pretty scary.
-Incorporeal is a huge pain for enemies to deal with. Magic weapons and creatures with DRX/magic only have a 50% chance of hitting you. On top of which, you can largely move around the battlefield with impunity.
- +4 dex, +2wis/cha
- +2 turn resistance
- Charisma bonus to AC as Deflection.
- Knows the evil that lies in the heart of men.
The Bad
-Undead HD aren't that great. 1/2 BAB, 1 good save
-Incorporeal is useful for defensive reasons, but it limits your options as you level. Using gear or being able to interact with your surroundings is severely limited.
- No Strength and Constitution.
- -4 Intelligence.
- Enemies immune to your strength drain are very difficult to deal with until you get a Ghost Touch weapon or learn spells.
-Enemy clerics are crazy dangerous for you. Good clerics can turn or destroy you, while evil clerics can basically dominate you. These are threats that you have to always deal with, whereas the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about SoD and really nasty SoS spells for awhile.
The Meh
-4 skill points a level with a bland skill list. Not too damaging since you only have 3HD.
With all that in mind, I'd say LA+3 is good. You are very dangerous in combat and make a great scout, but you lack a great deal of options. You can only use very specialized equipment, can't fight properly against enemies immune to your shtick (Ghost Touch weapons + Low BAB do not a warrior make), you can't talk or do any actions that can physically aid the party (flip switch, fetch potion, etc.) The infinite spawn power is too strong, any DM who lets you keep that is asking for trouble.

For the Greater Shadow, I'd say LA+0/1. The only improvement that it has over a normal Shadow is a stronger strength drain attack. Otherwise you need to trudge through 6 more HD with terrible BAB and crappy skills. Any normal shadow with class levels is a flat-out improvement over a Greater Shadow.

[lord_khaine]

The reasons you gave for it being a magical beast are only there because it's a magical beast. The d10, BAB and darkvision are all aspects of the magical beast HD.

My point was that you could look at it from another angle. That it did not get those things because its a magical beast. But is a magical beast because it got those things. And therefore HD for HD is superior to a normal beast.

[Malimar]

The type designations are a bit arbitrary. Here's just some Animals that never existed (not even include some of the more questionable Dire animals):


Bat, Desmodu Guard
Bat, Desmodu War
Carcass Eater
Chordevoc
Fhorge
Legendary Animal
Nifern
Phynxkin
Roc
Sailsnake
Tressym (although that may have been errata'd?)

With that illustrious list, there's really no reason to classify things like the Sea Cat as Magical Beasts. IMHO, if it isn't intelligent and doesn't have any magical powers, it should probably be an Animal.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't make a big difference, but the classification of some monsters does bother me a bit.
Aside from the roc and the (not listed but mentioned before the list) dire animals other than wolf, are any of those Core? I'd argue this is more a thing where the general guidelines make sense but splatbook writers ignore them.


The shadow (the shadow? the shadow!)
The Shadow?!

[Baby Gary]

the shadow is a hard thing for me to come to a decision about. In essence (see what I did there?) it is a one (1.5) trick pony, which is being able to create spawn via the strength drain. This is a very strong trick but there are some quite effective ways to block it or put it out of use. The main things I am talking about here are creatures immune to ability damage (or drain, I forget which one it is) and enemy clerics (which are almost always evil) being able to control you. I think that +3 is good, 6 levels for this powerful trick. I could be easily convinced for +2 though, that would allow them to get 8th level spells, which are no Shapechange or Wish but are still quite good.

[lord_khaine]

As for the shadow its kinda hard to settle for any less than a LA of +4. Being incorporal means that there is a unusually long list of encounters that are completely unable to deal with you. Melee NPC classes need to reach level 7 before they start to get magical weapons. And DR Magic is kinda rare.

Also being incorporal does mean your insanely good at scouting and spying. To a degree where it can actually be really troublesome for the GM to keep you out of places you dont belong, without straining disbelief.

[Thurbane]

Medium Undead; 3 RHD (poor BAB, 1 good save, 4 skill points/HD etc.); fly 40 ft (good); +1 deflection to AC; touch attack; Str --, Dex +4, Con --, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +2 (net +4, although you have two non abilities, so two auto dump stats)
Small (but useful) skill list; +2 to Listen and Spot, +4 to Search, and +4/-4 to Hide; you take a hit to Int, but if you invest enough in Int, you can still be OKish at skill-monkeying.
Strength damage is s solid (touch) attack; Create Spawn can be broken good at low-mid levels, and is still worthwhile even at higher levels; Incorporeal is a great defense, although it's painful for interacting with gear unless you spend a feat and/or GP; Undead Traits are among the best immunities in the game; you are vulnerable to Turning/Rebuking, but some with innate +2 Turn Resistance.

Pros: Str damage touch attack; Undead immunities; Incorporeal; flight; Create Spawn.
Cons: 3 RHD; hit to Int; Incorporeality can be a pain with interacting with gear until you find ways around it; lack of Con isn't so bad with d12 on your RHD, but most base classes have smaller dice.

Once you find a way to interact with the corporeal world, you could make a pretty solid Rogue type. I'm voting LA +3, mainly for Create Spawn abuse.

Greater Shadow gets saddled with 6 more RHD for the same benefits. The extra HD would bring it down to LA +1 IMHO.

Question: can Improved Natural Attack increase the Str damage? I know on a normal shadow it would hardly be worth it (1d6 > 1d8) but on a Greater Shadow (1d8 > 2d6) would be OK. Mainly thinking for monster encounters rather than from a PC perspective.

[Waker]

As for the shadow its kinda hard to settle for any less than a LA of +4. Being incorporal means that there is a unusually long list of encounters that are completely unable to deal with you. Melee NPC classes need to reach level 7 before they start to get magical weapons. And DR Magic is kinda rare.

Also being incorporal does mean your insanely good at scouting and spying. To a degree where it can actually be really troublesome for the GM to keep you out of places you dont belong, without straining disbelief.

While incorporeal is a really nice for a scout, shadows are lacking in a few ways. Sure, they can move around easy enough, but what do they do? They have an intelligence penalty, no access to knowledge or other useful skills until they take class levels, they can't interact with objects (so no snagging intel or magic items) and when they go to report back to the party they can't even talk.
While being incorporeal means you are hard to kill, it really limits your options on doing anything not related to draining strength. Thinking on it, what can you do to advance a shadow? Any class that relies on equipment (most of them) are really difficult to play. Most spellcasters are difficult between RHD and the inability to use material components (necessitating Eschew Materials), or material foci. Mundane warrior-types would be difficult since they wouldn't really improve what the shadow can already do. Only a handful of classes like Warlock or a meldshaper can really let you do anything new.

[lord_khaine]

While incorporeal is a really nice for a scout, shadows are lacking in a few ways. Sure, they can move around easy enough, but what do they do? They have an intelligence penalty, no access to knowledge or other useful skills until they take class levels, they can't interact with objects (so no snagging intel or magic items) and when they go to report back to the party they can't even talk.
While being incorporeal means you are hard to kill, it really limits your options on doing anything not related to draining strength. Thinking on it, what can you do to advance a shadow? Any class that relies on equipment (most of them) are really difficult to play. Most spellcasters are difficult between RHD and the inability to use material components (necessitating Eschew Materials), or material foci. Mundane warrior-types would be difficult since they wouldn't really improve what the shadow can already do. Only a handful of classes like Warlock or a meldshaper can really let you do anything new.

Well no they cant steal anything. But they dont need any skills to map a given dungeon, and point out both what sort of opponents it contain and where they are. As well as find a rather large part of the traps in the place. They can also overhear all sorts of meetings, as it takes some solid work to keep a shadow out from a given place.

And yes a shadow has rather few options for advancing. But the gear problem can be solved with a feat from Libris Mortis. And at lower levels being incorporal is close to being invulnerable.

[Mike Miller]

I think +3 is good for the shadow and +0 for the greater shadow. However, I strongly feel there should be a DM advisory for this (as well as any incorporeal PC, really).

[White Blade]

Question: can Improved Natural Attack increase the Str damage? I know on a normal shadow it would hardly be worth it (1d6 > 1d8) but on a Greater Shadow (1d8 > 2d6) would be OK. Mainly thinking for monster encounters rather than from a PC perspective.
It would appear so. I can't find anything suggesting it wouldn't.

[javcs]

Shadows ...

The Create Spawn is messy and worthy of a DM Caution marker. No question about it.


Incorporeality and Strength damage is tricky.

Incorporeal+Undead Traits renders you functionally immune to anything that requires a Fort save. Anything that can affect an object isn't really going to do anything to something incorporeal - how do you disintegrate something that doesn't consist of matter?

Being able to do ability damage is pretty good. On the other hand, since you can't do normal damage, you can't do any damage to anything immune to ability damage. Plus, since it's a negative energy effect, there's a lot of ways to get protection against it.


Undead RHD are pretty terrible, though.
Vulnerability to turning plus a large LA renders you extremely vulnerable to clerics, paladins, and all sorts of necromancer types.



Actually, between the low Int, inability to speak, and incorporeal inability to manipulate the corporeal world, that's basically unplayable.
For that matter - how does a Shadow assert control over/direct/command its spawn? It doesn't have any ability to communicate.


Greater Shadows are probably -0 with a DM Caution. Regular Shadows warrant a DM caution, and probably some LA.

[bekeleven]

Remember the emdash? The shadow here is the reason we have the emdash.

At least +5, if only to prevent people from making one. The only games in which I'd permit a player to use a shadow are ones in which there are so few beings there are no population centers.


The Shadow?!
The Shadow.

[Celestia]

At least +5, if only to prevent people from making one.
That is completely contrary to the purpose of the thread.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Another creature that perfectly fits the 'monster' bill; just more cannon fodder with claw/claw/bite. It sucks too much to play as, but it can annoy some hp out of a player for a few seconds.
Some games are about combat, and make combat inherently engaging. Some games are not about combat, and make sure the game has plenty of other engaging activities. D&D...doesn't really do either.




The shadow (the shadow? the shadow!) is another of those monsters that I doubt was ever actually playtested. CR 3 incorporeal undead that deal ability damage? Sure, just let me cast Disrupt Undead a dozen times at it and hope I miraculously survive its attacks.
D&D has a lot of monsters that are almost impossible to handle at low levels, but pushovers just a few levels later. Shadows didn't just need more playtesting, they need a total redesign!



Huh. I didn't intend for the whole post to be complaining about D&D's design.

[bekeleven]

That is completely contrary to the purpose of the thread.Every single response in the thread is saying that they need either a DM note of "No seriously don't let players use this1" or a total redesign.

1: I mean, they all say "Think twice about allowing this," but the reason is because shadow's create spawn should never be given to a player.

[Celestia]

Every single response in the thread is saying that they need either a DM note of "No seriously don't let players use this1" or a total redesign.

1: I mean, they all say "Think twice about allowing this," but the reason is because shadow's create spawn should never be given to a player.
Okay? Putting an excessively large LA just to make something unplayable is still contrary to the entire point of the thread.

[lord_khaine]

Okay? Putting an excessively large LA just to make something unplayable is still contrary to the entire point of the thread.

Clearly its not when just about everyone else seems to be in agreement on that some things are going to create trouble no matter what.

[Celestia]

Clearly its not when just about everyone else seems to be in agreement on that some things are going to create trouble no matter what.
Wow. Deja vu.

[Caelestion]

Clearly its not when just about everyone else seems to be in agreement on that some things are going to create trouble no matter what.

Then if it's going to create trouble, no matter what, sticking a pointless LA on it is entirely counterproductive since such a measure will not solve the issue.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Also, while we're at it, creating trouble is completely acceptable, as long as other (N)PCs also create trouble :smalltongue:.

Joking aside, shadows deserve a warning, but that reduces LA, if anything. Instead of assigning LA for the worst-case scenario, you can assign LA while keeping in mind that the DM has been warned, and taken appropriate action.

@bekeleven, lord_khaine: I'll thank you not to misrepresent my posts. Yes, I agree that shadows have a problematic ability. Yes, I think shadows should have a warning, and perhaps a separate LA for shadows-without-spawn, for those DMs that don't want the extra work. However, that warning should not be "don't let the players use this", because that is no fun, and not what this thread is about in any case. The shadow should remain as shadow-y as possible, because when you play a shadow, you want to play a shadow.

[lord_khaine]

Then if it's going to create trouble, no matter what, sticking a pointless LA on it is entirely counterproductive since such a measure will not solve the issue.

Its not pointless if it pushes the trouble in the direction of an underpowered PC, and away from a overpowered PC that wrecks the campaign. The truth is that some abilities are going to be extremely hard to balance, and really dont belongs in the hand of a PC most of the time. What the shadow really needs is a redesign.


@bekeleven, lord_khaine: I'll thank you not to misrepresent my posts. Yes, I agree that shadows have a problematic ability. Yes, I think shadows should have a warning, and perhaps a separate LA for shadows-without-spawn, for those DMs that don't want the extra work. However, that warning should not be "don't let the players use this", because that is no fun, and not what this thread is about in any case. The shadow should remain as shadow-y as possible, because when you play a shadow, you want to play a shadow.

Then when i quote you directly you can actually complain about me misrepresenting something. But until that happens i can continue arguing that the Shadow pose a situation where its really hard to fix things with just putting an LA on.

[Inevitability]

Shadow Mastiff

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG222b.jpg

For 4 outsider RHD, this beastie gives bonuses to all stats (especially strength and constitution), with the exception of intelligence (which is heavily penalized instead). They've got a decent land speed, can trip people they bite, and get Track for free. They are, however, unable to speak.

Their two special abilities are of varying use. Bay is a decent debuff with a huge range you can immunize your allies against, but it's also sonic, fear, and mind-affecting. Shadow Blend allows mastiffs to get total concealment as a standard action, which presumably lasts until they enter an area of daylight.

+0 LA: a bit strong at lower ECLs but fairly balanced at mid-levels.

[Caelestion]

Its not pointless if it pushes the trouble in the direction of an underpowered PC, and away from a overpowered PC that wrecks the campaign.

Which is never the right way to handle something. A warning marker (experienced GMs only!) is a much more sensible way to do it. When the Ultratech book was redone for GURPS 4th Edition, instead of having super-science techs at Tech Levels 13-16 (arbitrarily varying levels of Clarke-tech), they instead integrated them amongst the other future-tech levels (TLs 9-12) and then used a circumflex to indicate that they were super-science.

In the same way, a shadow would be LA +3^ or +4^, with the circumflex indicating that such a value does not fully account for a shadow's abilities and needs to be properly evaluated by the GM. As this thread should have shown time and time again, the answer to problematic powers is not to slap a massive LA on them and call that done.

[Baby Gary]

Remember the emdash? The shadow here is the reason we have the emdash.

At least +5, if only to prevent people from making one. The only games in which I'd permit a player to use a shadow are ones in which there are so few beings there are no population centers.


The Shadow.

I just want to bring Grod's law into consideration here, which is "you should not and cannot balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use"

that is exactly what you are going, you are making shadows annoying to use.

[lord_khaine]

Which is never the right way to handle something. A warning marker (experienced GMs only!) is a much more sensible way to do it. When the Ultratech book was redone for GURPS 4th Edition, instead of having super-science techs at Tech Levels 13-16 (arbitrarily varying levels of Clarke-tech), they instead integrated them amongst the other future-tech levels (TLs 9-12) and then used a circumflex to indicate that they were super-science.

In the same way, a shadow would be LA +3^ or +4^, with the circumflex indicating that such a value does not fully account for a shadow's abilities and needs to be properly evaluated by the GM. As this thread should have shown time and time again, the answer to problematic powers is not to slap a massive LA on them and call that done.

I guess i just have much less trust in the experienced GM only warning marker. Because if there is something the RPG forum has taught me, then it is that a lot of GM's consider themselves experienced without being it.

So actually, i have yet to see a single instance of this thread finding a better solution to a problematic power, than slapping a LA on it of the size where its pushed into that area where everything is broken.
That also applies to the Shadow. The sort of skill and experience required for handling something like this, is in the area where the GM is going to trust more in his own judgment anyway. And either homebrew something, or assign a LA thats more fitting for the power level of his own game, than the oppinion of some random strangers in the internet.

[Elkad]

Create Spawn on a Mohrg or Vampire is 1d4 days.
Still game-breaking, but at least it doesn't cascade instantly.

Create Spawn on a Shadow (and Spectre, Wraith, and Wight) is 1d4 ROUNDS. That's an instant cascade. Every ~5 rounds someone dies. 2.5 rounds later they are a shadow and killing someone every 5 rounds themselves.
Even if you add some inefficiency due to movement, a whole stadium of 65,000 people is shadows in 10 minutes. Hell, you can't even outrun them. Pack 4 billion people in a bigger stadium and they are all Shadows in 20 minutes.

Give them all the same command. "Charge and Feed, and command your young to do the same"

They need +3 at least for that ability alone (and it really is one of the few abilities deserves the big -null-), and I don't see a reason to reduce that for the Greater version either.

[Caelestion]

A broken ability is still broken, no matter what LA you assign to it. If you can't trust GM to handle a monster appropriately, the only proper response is to not allow said creatures as players, not saddle them with ineffective LAs.

[bekeleven]

I just want to bring Grod's law into consideration here, which is "you should not and cannot balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use"

that is exactly what you are going, you are making shadows annoying to use.You know, if I make a class like the sorcerer, except he only gets cantrips until level 19 and gets first level spells at 20, it's not tier 1. In fact, it's kinda tier 6.

I'm not making it "annoying" to use. I'm making it objectively less powerful.

The average human dies to a shadow in 3 hits. Given the +3 attack and the fact that it's touch, and throwing in crits, this should probably take about 4 rounds. Then another 2.5 rounds for the shadow to rise.

This means that a shadow in a population center dense with low and midlevel people should double every 6.5 rounds. Throw in maybe 3 rounds to find the next target.

A single shadow can take over a city the size of new york in 22 minutes. I'm not even counting the fact that living shadows can keep swinging while the new ones wake up.

If you really want to assign an LA to that, and this thread does, I'd say that's worth more than +4.

[ErebusVonMori]

Except cities the size you're describing would likely have enough high level character to just go "And stop." Sure rurally shadows are a threat, but major cities would be able to deal with them.

[WhamBamSam]

Using Ranger as a baseline because of the free Track and a whim, I'd say that Shadow Mastiff 4 is closer to Wild Shape Ranger 5 than Ranger 4. Shadow Mastiff 4/Class Levels X probably doesn't compare quite as well to Wild Shape Ranger X+5, but with LA buyoff in play I think it's close enough. I agree with LA+1.

[zlefin]

Haven't joined in on these threads before, only read a bit on them. I agree +1 la seems right for the mastiff. A very solid set of stat buffs and a sometimes useful crowd control ability with wide area are nice. As is good access to concealment.

[Celestia]

Create Spawn on a Mohrg or Vampire is 1d4 days.
Still game-breaking, but at least it doesn't cascade instantly.

Create Spawn on a Shadow (and Spectre, Wraith, and Wight) is 1d4 ROUNDS. That's an instant cascade. Every ~5 rounds someone dies. 2.5 rounds later they are a shadow and killing someone every 5 rounds themselves.
Even if you add some inefficiency due to movement, a whole stadium of 65,000 people is shadows in 10 minutes. Hell, you can't even outrun them. Pack 4 billion people in a bigger stadium and they are all Shadows in 20 minutes.

Give them all the same command. "Charge and Feed, and command your young to do the same"

They need +3 at least for that ability alone (and it really is one of the few abilities deserves the big -null-), and I don't see a reason to reduce that for the Greater version either.
You know, if I make a class like the sorcerer, except he only gets cantrips until level 19 and gets first level spells at 20, it's not tier 1. In fact, it's kinda tier 6.

I'm not making it "annoying" to use. I'm making it objectively less powerful.

The average human dies to a shadow in 3 hits. Given the +3 attack and the fact that it's touch, and throwing in crits, this should probably take about 4 rounds. Then another 2.5 rounds for the shadow to rise.

This means that a shadow in a population center dense with low and midlevel people should double every 6.5 rounds. Throw in maybe 3 rounds to find the next target.

A single shadow can take over a city the size of new york in 22 minutes. I'm not even counting the fact that living shadows can keep swinging while the new ones wake up.

If you really want to assign an LA to that, and this thread does, I'd say that's worth more than +4.
This is hilariously disingenuous. You're describing something that will literally never happen as if it's inevitable. What sort of player goes to a dungeon stomp RPG and decides "nah, I'm just going to GTA this instead?" What sort of DM just sits back and quietly curses the player while their campaign world is torn to shreds? This is absolutely not going to happen.

What's far more likely is the shadow player goes through the dungeon and maybe gets a few kills in. Worst case scenario, three or four extra shadows leave the cave. And that's assuming they were fighting humanoids. If they're fighting literally anything else, create spawn does nothing. Tell me, just how many creatures in the game are not humanoid? I think it's at least a couple.

In reality, the incoporealness is going to be far more troublesome as it will be difficult to keep the shadow where you want it. You're both just making a mountain out of a molehill with the most ridiculous and absurd hypothetical situation you can come up with. Billions of people aren't just going to be stuffed into stadiums, and cities the size of New York have high level NPCs. And the DM always has access to the old stand by of "Ethereal rocks fall. Everyone dies."

[Waker]

Since a few other have chimed in already, I won't do a full breakdown for the mastiff. Plus I'm feeling lazy.
I'd give it LA+1. While it's got a few ups and downs, it seems ok overall. The ability that I have issue with is Shadow Blend.

Shadow Blend (Su)
In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a shadow mastiff can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability. A daylight spell, however, will.
It would require a standard action to activate, but it doesn't include any statement on how it ends. Shadow Blend is not invisibility, meaning that the mastiff could fade from sight and attack without limit provided it isn't in sunlight. Nor is it Hide In Plain Sight, which would require a Hide check, possibly modified by a penalty for being in combat. See Invisibility has no effect on it. Meaning unless you have Blindsense/Sight or are just really good at guessing where the dog is, you are in for some fun.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Then if it's going to create trouble, no matter what, sticking a pointless LA on it is entirely counterproductive since such a measure will not solve the issue.
Quoted for truth. Creating hordes of self-replicating shadows from enemy humanoids is going to be potentially disruptive at any level, unless the PCs never encounter any enemy humanoids. Heck, it can potentially cause problems even if the shadow doesn't try to abuse the ability but the characters encounter a lot of goblins/orcs/whatever. One could easily end up with dozens of shadows tailing them, which are capable of screwing over all sorts of creatures with simple subterranean ambushes.
Imagine a Medium-sized creature with a shadow directly underneath it and eight in the surrounding squares. Barring some kind of special magic, those shadows will get surprise, meaning that the target's touch AC would probably be close to 10. Let's say that ive of the nine shadows hit; that's about 17-18 points of Strength damage in the surprise round. Anything not Strength-reliant is going to be incapacitated, anything Strength-reliant is going to be crippled.
Forget apocalypses; the real issues posed by a shadow's spawn come up when they focus fire. This will be true from levels 3 to 33.

[Inevitability]

Shambling Mound

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG223a.jpg

I like the shambling mound. Mind you, not as a monster; as a monster it's pretty terrible. No, I like it because it's a perfect example of the weirdness of WotC's monsters. "Yeah, we made the plant resistant to fire, immune to lightning, allowed it to swim, then slapped a LA on it because our guidelines for what should be a PC are completely arbitrary."

Mechanically, mounds have 8 plant HD and some reasonable stats (assuming you go melee). They get two slam attacks (which, given that they're giant vines, can probably not be used to wield weapons with), slow land and swim speeds, Large size with reach, natural armor (which is good because just try to find magic armor your size), improved grab and constrict (kinda relevant at these levels), with the aforementioned fire resistance (not how plants work, guys) and electricity immunity.

Speaking of said immunity, shambling mounds have the ability to gain points of constitution any time they'd be damaged by lightning. If you read this sentence and thought 'can it get to infinite?' then congratulations; you're a typical member of the GitP forums!

The answer is yes, by the way. One point is lost every hour, so as long as you get shocked a dozen times per day or so you'll slowly gain more and more con. And of course, with as little as three class levels one can get a source of at-will lightning damage. Guess why this is getting an asterisk?

With no infinite constitution shenanigans, shambling mounds are simply plants with decent strength, two natural attacks, and enough HD to be useless. -0* LA.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd go with -0, on the grounds that they'd still be -0 with +12 extra con and no absorb. +12 should be around the point where the DM starts telling you to cut the crap. For mundane beatstick levels of power, anyway.

[zlefin]

the improved grab on the mound doesn't seem all that useful, it specifies it requires hitting iwth both slam attacks to activate, which means you have to be getting a full attack.
I'd say a lot depends on just how much extra con you abuse the electricity for (and the dm allows). and whether you can get extra hp from that extra con, or if it won't last long enough. without the extra con it's really quite weak i'd say. without the extra con it's -0, or maybe even -1

[Celestia]

The thing to note here is that while the extra con presumably gives extra HP (because why would it not?), those extra HP are not temporary. Thus, they are not lost first. When your con starts fading, you're going to lose current HP, not just max HP. It's, effectively, a roundabout way to say that the shambling mound has a conditional delay death effect that only affects HP damage. That's not quite as useful as real HP gain. I'd say -0 LA.

[Inevitability]

LA changed to -0.

[zlefin]

Make sure to add a DM note to restrict infinite con stacking. or, however it is you deal with stuff like that for these threads. too many ways for a level 8 party to enable it from the start.

[No brains]

A plant with a lot of water in it could be resistant to fire. Green plants don't burn especially easily. I think if you tried to set some plant and animal matter with equal moisture in them on fire, they might burn at similar rates. Also if a plant could control the amount of water in itself, it could theoretically affect its buoyancy, allowing it to swim competently.

The lightning stuff still makes no sense to me though.

[Celestia]

I'm assuming the lighting immunity is because plants are grounded. It's the same spurious logic that Pokémon uses to give grass types electric resistance.

[Random Sanity]

Animal Documentary Voiceover: Behold the wonders of the Shambling Mound. Born from the bottom of a barbarian's boot, these majestic creatures seek to acquire lighting rods for themselves that they may take advantage of their natural ability to gain vigour from electric shock, and thus stack their CON scores to ungodly levels before dying instantly to anything that doesn't target Fort saves.


(Agree with -0 LA)

[Lans]

[CENTER]Shambling Mound




The answer is yes, by the way. One point is lost every hour, so as long as you get shocked a dozen times per day or so you'll slowly gain more and more con. And of course, with as little as three class levels one can get a source of at-will lightning damage.

.

You can actually do it with 1 incarnate level
feat

The thing to note here is that while the extra con presumably gives extra HP (because why would it not?), those extra HP are not temporary. Thus, they are not lost first. When your con starts fading, you're going to lose current HP, not just max HP. It's, effectively, a roundabout way to say that the shambling mound has a conditional delay death effect that only affects HP damage. That's not quite as useful as real HP gain. I'd say -0 LA.

They are lost at a rate of 1 per hour, so if the mound spends an hour a day shocking himself he will add 1500 to his con. Thats at least 6000 hp. From there if he just spends 1 minute a day shocking himself he will be gaining 1 con a day.

I would say he is effectively immune to hp damage with the cost of 1 feat and an hours prep time.

[Inevitability]

Shield Guardian

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG223b.jpg

Another of those 'probably not playable' monsters. Not that it'll stop it from getting a LA.

Shield guardians are constructs with 15 HD and bad ability scores, whose abilities are all copyable by low-level spells and all require giving complete control over your character to someone else. If that sentence doesn't prepare you for the -0 LA, I don't know what will.

Yes, fast healing is cute, and spell storing may even have its rare niche in campaigns without Contingencies, but in the end you're a mindless robot slave that's a half-decent meat shield and not much else.

[InvisibleBison]

I've often wondered, who would actually build a shield guardian? What 15th level character would think that a CR 8 creature is a useful bodyguard?

[Coretron03]

You can actually do it with 1 incarnate level
feat


They are lost at a rate of 1 per hour, so if the mound spends an hour a day shocking himself he will add 1500 to his con. Thats at least 6000 hp. From there if he just spends 1 minute a day shocking himself he will be gaining 1 con a day.

I would say he is effectively immune to hp damage with the cost of 1 feat and an hours prep time.

And with Warblade/Swordsage levels (Only 1 needed because of the racial Hitdie) they could become immune to effects requiring saving throws by using the massive concentration bonuses they would get, which using the Diamond Mind manuavers thst replace saves with Concentration checks would give huge bonuses to saves. I don't think La -0 really fits.

Plus, breath weapon Dc's are based off Con right? I'm pretty sure save or lose effects can be added to breath weapons.

[Lans]

I figure at least -4 seems reasonable for it, compare it to a level 11 crusader and it has a bit higher ac, construct immunities lower everything else
And with Warblade/Swordsage levels (Only 1 needed because of the racial Hitdie) they could become immune to effects requiring saving throws by using the massive concentration bonuses they would get, which using the Diamond Mind manuavers thst replace saves with Concentration checks would give huge bonuses to saves. I don't think La -0 really fits.

Plus, breath weapon Dc's are based off Con right? I'm pretty sure save or lose effects can be added to breath weapons.

Thats only 1 per round, at best

How do you plan on gettng a breath weapon, and adding save or loose effects to it? I think dragonfire adept gets it at level 10 so your looking at ECL 18. I don't know any other methods off hand

[Remuko]

I figure at least -4 seems reasonable for it, compare it to a level 11 crusader and it has a bit higher ac, construct immunities lower everything else

Thats only 1 per round, at best

How do you plan on gettng a breath weapon, and adding save or loose effects to it? I think dragonfire adept gets it at level 10 so your looking at ECL 18. I don't know any other methods off hand

We dont do negative level adjustments. -0 means even at +0 its too weak so DM adjudication is suggested.

[javcs]

I figure at least -4 seems reasonable for it, compare it to a level 11 crusader and it has a bit higher ac, construct immunities lower everything else

Thats only 1 per round, at best

How do you plan on gettng a breath weapon, and adding save or loose effects to it? I think dragonfire adept gets it at level 10 so your looking at ECL 18. I don't know any other methods off hand


We dont do negative level adjustments. -0 means even at +0 its too weak so DM adjudication is suggested.

As Remuko said, an LA of -0 means it is woefully inadequate at ECL=RHD, not merely weak.

Negative Level Adjustments are not actually a thing that's defined. As such, any endeavor involving assigning Negative LA values (and creating a definition of Negative LA), while not without merit, would be beyond the scope of this thread.



Concur with -0, probably unplayable for Shield Guardian.

For that matter ... since it appears to be the case that there is no additional cost involved in creating an advanced-HD version, I see no reason why anyone would ever create the baseline 15HD version, instead of a 24HD (if staying Large size is desired) or 45HD (if staying Large isn't a requirement) Shield Guardian. I mean, sure, they'd be even more woefully inadequate as PCs, but they might actually be somewhat useful to their creator.

[Lans]

We dont do negative level adjustments. -0 means even at +0 its too weak so DM adjudication is suggested.

Stopping at -0 is silly. There is precedence for negative adjustment, and if a monster is too weak for -0 it shouldn't get -0.


As Remuko said, an LA of -0 means it is woefully inadequate at ECL=RHD, not merely weak.

Negative Level Adjustments are not actually a thing that's defined. As such, any endeavor involving assigning Negative LA values (and creating a definition of Negative LA), while not without merit, would be beyond the scope of this thread.



If you assign a construct an ecl =HD, then you are making - level adjustments a thing due to incarnate construct template.

[Thurbane]

The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.

[Inevitability]

For that matter ... since it appears to be the case that there is no additional cost involved in creating an advanced-HD version, I see no reason why anyone would ever create the baseline 15HD version, instead of a 24HD (if staying Large size is desired) or 45HD (if staying Large isn't a requirement) Shield Guardian. I mean, sure, they'd be even more woefully inadequate as PCs, but they might actually be somewhat useful to their creator.

"A shield guardian with more than 15 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +5,000 gp to the market price, and the price increases by +20,000 gp if the creature’s size increases to Huge, modifying the cost to create accordingly."

[javcs]

"A shield guardian with more than 15 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +5,000 gp to the market price, and the price increases by +20,000 gp if the creature’s size increases to Huge, modifying the cost to create accordingly."

The Errata strikes again.

I really should remember to check the Errata for things like that.

Edit: Actually, this time it was the 3.5e Update. Was looking at the 3.0e MM1 for some reason.
Whoops.

[lord_khaine]

I've often wondered, who would actually build a shield guardian? What 15th level character would think that a CR 8 creature is a useful bodyguard?

One that dislike the idea of being assasinated? A shield Guardian is pretty tanky, heals itself, and takes ½ of the damage you suffer. That can easily save your life in the face of an ambush with lots of sneak attacks involved.

Edit.

Alternatively, its a level 15 character who is being paid 120k gold for one, because another person with more gold than class levels want one.

[RedWarlock]

One that dislike the idea of being assasinated? A shield Guardian is pretty tanky, heals itself, and takes ½ of the damage you suffer. That can easily save your life in the face of an ambush with lots of sneak attacks involved.

Edit.

Alternatively, its a level 15 character who is being paid 120k gold for one, because another person with more gold than class levels want one.

Plus, y'know, while WE are used to level-appropriate encounters (in the range, anyway), not everybody a character in-world comes across is going to be level-appropriate, nor is it easy to tell who is what level. Far more likely that the average person who attacks them will be some 3rd level humanoid, who will easily be taken out by the SG without the master even needing to lift a finger.

[Malimar]

Shield Guardian
What in the world...? I can literally not remember ever having seen this monster before. And if you'd told me it existed, I would have assumed it was from Monster Manual 2 or Fiend Folio or something. I can remember that rasts and ravids and achaierais and suchlike exist, but the shield guardian is a complete blind spot. :smallconfused:

[Lans]

The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.
Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?


There are over 200 creatures that have been assigned -0, I find that pretty problematic. If it was just a couple it wouldn't be that big of deal, but as it stands its like half the monster manual

[Celestia]

Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?


There are over 200 creatures that have been assigned -0, I find that pretty problematic. If it was just a couple it wouldn't be that big of deal, but as it stands its like half the monster manual
That's because half the monster manual is composed of HD-inflated brawlers.

[Mike Miller]

The reasons for not assigning negative LA have been discussed in depth throughout these topics, and I can't see it changing now.


Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?

There are over 200 creatures that have been assigned -0, I find that pretty problematic. If it was just a couple it wouldn't be that big of deal, but as it stands its like half the monster manual

I wouldn't be surprised if it was explained in detail in both the first and second thread. Without going into yet another in-depth explanation, negative LA can really break things. Not necessarily WILL, but can. As has already been mentioned, that case is outside the scope of this project. If you feel that there are many -0 monsters, it is probably because monsters as PCs are generally underwhelming. It isn't a fault of the LA re-assignment system that Inevitability (and the gitp community) is taking on, but rather a fault of the D&D system really not being set up to accommodate random monsters as player characters. I don't even mean the original " - " LA monsters, either. In most cases, if you simply flip to a random page in the MM and say "That is what I will use as my character" and subsequently stick with whatever LA (if it had one) it had for your PC, you will be far less useful than a "normal" character of the same ECL.

As for the Shield Guardian, I agree it is -0. Although thinking about it from a RP perspective, I think it would be a funny thing to have in the party. Moreso from a sitcom's take on a D&D session than actually playing, though.

[cigaw]

Was it in the first 50 page thread or the second 50 page thread?

Most recently on the last page of the last thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520556-The-LA-assignment-thread-II-Where-The-Em-Dash-Doesn-t-Exist&p=22249158&highlight=negative#post22249158). Inevitability's input on this is the last post of the previous thread before linking to this one. I understand not wanting to delve into hundreds of posts to find information but this isn't exactly buried so deep you'd need Indiana Jones to unearth.

Regardless of thread size, really easy to find by the "search thread" function.

edit: Also, looks like you were in that discussion, Lans. :smallconfused:

edit2: Another vote for -0 on the Shield Guardian.

edit the third: In retrospect, the tone of my post was a bit standoffish, which was not my intent. My apologies if that's how it came across.

[Lans]

Most recently on the last page of the last thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520556-The-LA-assignment-thread-II-Where-The-Em-Dash-Doesn-t-Exist&p=22249158&highlight=negative#post22249158). Inevitability's input on this is the last post of the previous thread before linking to this one. I understand not wanting to delve into hundreds of posts to find information but this isn't exactly buried so deep you'd need Indiana Jones to unearth.

Regardless of thread size, really easy to find by the "search thread" function.

edit: Also, looks like you were in that discussion, Lans. :smallconfused:
s.

Well, I was expecting a bit more detail with the phrasing discused in depth

[javcs]

Negative LA is still not actually a thing that exists. If you want to develop a definition for Negative LA and assign values to LA -0 creatures using that definition, you can freely do so in a new thread. But this thread is not the one to define and apply Negative LA.


The Incarnate Construct template says LA -2 (minimum 0); that's a reduction of the base creature's LA by 2, to a minimum LA of 0. You might be able to talk a DM into letting the -2 apply to any templates applied after the Incarnate Construct template, down to the minimum of 0.

[Lans]

Negative LA is still not actually a thing that exists. If you want to develop a definition for Negative LA and assign values to LA -0 creatures using that definition, you can freely do so in a new thread. But this thread is not the one to define and apply Negative LA.


The Incarnate Construct template says LA -2 (minimum 0); that's a reduction of the base creature's LA by 2, to a minimum LA of 0. You might be able to talk a DM into letting the -2 apply to any templates applied after the Incarnate Construct template, down to the minimum of 0.

Honestly, I care less about the la and more about just differentiating between being slightly worse than base race, and being as far below fighter as a fighter is below wizard, whether its with numbers, letter grades like D+, D, D- etc, or colors.

[javcs]

Worse than a standard race+class combo (but still functional) would probably still be classified as +0.


LA -0 is a category that no PC should draw from without special circumstances and DM involvement.
As such, developing a definition for and then assigning, further graduations of "worse than ECL=RHD" is generally not going to be particularly relevant for would-be players, and if it's a DM, they can just use CR/monster advancement rules, rather than calculating as a PC.
But, again, doing that is beyond the scope of this thread/series of threads. If you want to do so, I encourage you to do so, and suggest adding a link to the thread you do that in to a post here, so anyone interested in assisting can do so.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...with the aforementioned fire resistance (not how plants work, guys)...
Well, some trees are fire-resistant, in that they survive forest fires relatively unscathed.* Have you seen any humans manage that?

*Many fewer now that they have to deal with something far more dangerous than a force of nature—humans who want to build tough houses.



They are lost at a rate of 1 per hour, so if the mound spends an hour a day shocking himself he will add 1500 to his con. Thats at least 6000 hp. From there if he just spends 1 minute a day shocking himself he will be gaining 1 con a day.

I would say he is effectively immune to hp damage with the cost of 1 feat and an hours prep time.
Well, if that's the balance level we're going for, we might as well account for Pun-Pun at ECL 4.



Stopping at -0 is silly. There is precedence for negative adjustment, and if a monster is too weak for -0 it shouldn't get -0.

If you assign a construct an ecl =HD, then you are making - level adjustments a thing due to incarnate construct template.
Assuming that A. the Incarnate Construct's LA modifier remains unchanged (because otherwise combining the two systems is kinda silly) and B. that Inevitability agrees that combining the two would lead to something he's specifically said he wouldn't allow.



As for the Shield Guardian, I agree it is -0. Although thinking about it from a RP perspective, I think it would be a funny thing to have in the party. Moreso from a sitcom's take on a D&D session than actually playing, though.
A sitcom-style D&D campaign sounds more interesting than most of the games I've played. It focuses on the reasons one would play D&D over, say, Dark Souls.



But, again, doing that is beyond the scope of this thread/series of threads. If you want to do so, I encourage you to do so, and suggest adding a link to the thread you do that in to a post here, so anyone interested in assisting can do so.
I've got a Google Doc somewhere of me doing essentially that with the first few LA-0 monsters in the thread. Maybe I should turn that into an actual thread...

[No brains]

I suppose if we wanted to toy with the idea of negative LAs, we could start a new thread where -0 monsters have templates applied to them to 'fix' them and extrapolate a theoretical negative LA from there.

We'd have to figure out what templates are 'fair' though. IIRC, Lolth-Touched or something gives +8 to Str and Con for +1 LA. That's going to be hard to work out. Maybe we'd have to make a tier system for templates first. Then we can decide what tier templates work for what creatures for the tier of their role. So a -0 ooze can take the tier 4 Insectoid template to get hands and become a tier 2 caster and make their LA+0?

In other words, it's difficult enough to not let ourselves get sidetracked here. LA -0 works as a quick fix to keep the thread moving.

[javcs]

I suppose if we wanted to toy with the idea of negative LAs, we could start a new thread where -0 monsters have templates applied to them to 'fix' them and extrapolate a theoretical negative LA from there.

We'd have to figure out what templates are 'fair' though. IIRC, Lolth-Touched or something gives +8 to Str and Con for +1 LA. That's going to be hard to work out. Maybe we'd have to make a tier system for templates first. Then we can decide what tier templates work for what creatures for the tier of their role. So a -0 ooze can take the tier 4 Insectoid template to get hands and become a tier 2 caster and make their LA+0?

Nah. We'd need to recalculate the LAs on all the templates we'd be using first, in order for that to work.
My personal approach/solution to defining what negative LA would be it's that many levels of gestalt class levels next to the RHD; possibly mandating an associated class, although I'm not sure about that bit.




In other words, it's difficult enough to not let ourselves get sidetracked here. LA -0 works as a quick fix to keep the thread moving.
Absolutely. It's worth doing ... just in another thread, where we'd have time to get into the weeds on what negative LA should mean, and work out what it should be for all the -0 monsters here.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If we were going to do that, we could use some of the templates Inevitability's already evaluated.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I actually made that negative-LA thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533018-The-LA-Assignment-Thread-1-Or-Inevitably-Rejected&p=22281030#post22281030) Now we can stop talking about it here...hopefully.

[Lans]

Well, if that's the balance level we're going for, we might as well account for Pun-Pun at ECL 4.


.

I disagree, its good, but its largely passive. You trade 5 or 6 levels of a caster class, and 2 or 3 levels of a prestige class





Absolutely. It's worth doing ... just in another thread, where we'd have time to get into the weeds on what negative LA should mean, and work out what it should be for all the -0 monsters here.

That sounds reasonable


I actually made that negative-LA thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533018-The-LA-Assignment-Thread-1-Or-Inevitably-Rejected&p=22281030#post22281030) Now we can stop talking about it here...hopefully.

Awesome, Thank you

[GreatWyrmGold]

I disagree, its good, but its largely passive. You trade 5 or 6 levels of a caster class, and 2 or 3 levels of a prestige class
You can get Pun-Pun with just a couple wizard levels, a cheap template, and a prestige class that the template lets you qualify for. It's not the number of levels, it's how you use them, and you'd have to be pretty dang rules-abusive to say "I'm going to spend an hour shocking myself to get stupid-high Constitution, effectively permanently" with a straight face.

[Inevitability]

Shocker Lizard

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG224.jpg

Two magical beast hit dice, small size, a -4 net ability score loss, one weak natural attack, immunity to electricity, a decent land speed, and slow swim and climb speeds. If it weren't for its special attacks, these critters would be on their way to the -0 pile already.

However, as they are right now they have a couple of semi-interesting abilities that should be mentioned first. Electricity Sense is interesting, and unique as far as I can see, but ultimately not that likely to be useful. Stunning Shock is moderately neat ability that deals 2d8 points of nonlethal damage, which a reflex save halves, whereas Lethal Shock can deal up to 12d8 points of lethal damage in an area as a single standard action (though it does require other nearby lizards).

Add to this some skill bonuses and I think the resulting creature barely deserves +0 LA. It may have a moderately poor chassis, and the low intelligence stings, but the shocks aren't that bad at low levels and can be developed in interesting ways.

[Celestia]

Non lethal electric damage? That's interesting. I bet it could be used for "enhanced interrogation." Possibly against orc babies.

[javcs]

Electricity Sense is probably worthless 99.99%+ of the time. Unless you manage to talk the DM into allowing it to detect the tiny electrical impulses involved in a living creature's nervous system, then it's like a cross between lifesight and blindsense, except worse.


The Stunning Shock is interesting, but 2d8 Reflex half nonlethal damage isn't great. The only part of this that scales is the Save DC. It's pretty meh. Also ... you could just spend a feat for a 3d6 (I think, AFB) lethal electric melee touch. On it's own, this probably has no net effect on the LA.

Lethal Shock is really more useful as a monster ability, rather than a PC ability. In order for a player to use it, they need at least one more Shocker Lizard in close proximity and allied. That pretty much requires investing into minionmancy, and there are much better ways to minionmancy.


I'm actually going to go with -0, or a weak, just barely, +0. At best, it's borderline.

[Celestia]

Well, magical beast HD aren't bad, and with only two, that's even better. Most of the racial abilities are worthless, though. If it had positive stat mods, I'd say that +0 was fine, but at -4 overall, I just can't justify it. I agree with -0 LA.

[Dimers]

Thinking on it, what can you do to advance a shadow? Any class that relies on equipment (most of them) are really difficult to play.

Ooh, ooh, I know! VOW OF POVERTY!!!!1!

... I have no actual contribution to this thread.

[ErebusVonMori]

Ooh, ooh, I know! VOW OF POVERTY!!!!1!

... I have no actual contribution to this thread.

And I just found my next character.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Lethal Shock is really more useful as a monster ability, rather than a PC ability. In order for a player to use it, they need at least one more Shocker Lizard in close proximity and allied. That pretty much requires investing into minionmancy, and there are much better ways to minionmancy.
Isn't there a feat that lets you take weird stuff like shocker lizards as familiars? It wouldn't take that much investment.
Though I'm not sure arcane caster is the best way to advance a shocker lizard...or what that way would be, for that matter...

[Inevitability]

Isn't there a feat that lets you take weird stuff like shocker lizards as familiars? It wouldn't take that much investment.
Though I'm not sure arcane caster is the best way to advance a shocker lizard...or what that way would be, for that matter...

The Improved Familiar feat does, in fact, though at the level it becomes available (level 5), 4d8 damage isn't that cool anymore.

Then again, it's a good use of your familiars action, and free area damage every turn for a single feat never hurt a build. I can see people taking it, especially in less high-op games.

[Lans]

The Improved Familiar feat does, in fact, though at the level it becomes available (level 5), 4d8 damage isn't that cool anymore.

Then again, it's a good use of your familiars action, and free area damage every turn for a single feat never hurt a build. I can see people taking it, especially in less high-op games.

I could reasonably see 2 players doing this for 8d8x4 damage a round, and from their I could see another player grabbing a shocker lizard as familier

[Inevitability]

I could reasonably see 2 players doing this for 8d8x4 damage a round, and from their I could see another player grabbing a shocker lizard as familier

That's the reason I gave them +0, yes. They're not completely unplayable, and can be used quite efficiently in some situations (as opposed to stuff like Colossal Animated Objects, which are just crap).

[Inevitability]

Skeleton

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/new-monster/images/0/0b/MM35_PG225.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130714115604

I was considering making one of the many horrible skeleton puns, but decided against it. Rib-ticklers will have to wait, it seems.

Skeletons are mindless undead fodder, as we all know. In most cases, they're bad as PCs because they take away most special abilities then worsen the resulting chassis by giving it undead HD.

However, on a creature with one or less RHD to begin with, they're kind of interesting. In such a situation, the sole RHD gets to be swapped for a class level, and the abilities gotten arguably outweight a necropolitian's. DR 5/bludgeoning and immunity to cold, not to mention natural armor, free Improved Initiative and claw attacks are probably better than a small bonus on saving throws against undead-controlling effects.

Sure, it requires getting your intelligence back somehow, but a casting of Awaken Undead can be purchased with 3rd-level WBL, and many other templates that can also do so exist (though to be fair, most don't work on undead).

In the end, I think that in the niche case described above, skeleton is strong enough to warrant +1 LA. If the base creature ends up having to take RHD, though, +0 or -0 is probably better.

[Nifft]

Awaken Undead is a splatbook spell, so I don't know if it's valid to consider the MM1 Skeleton in the context of that spell unless you're ALSO throwing in the Spellstiched template, all the Corpsecrafter feats, and being created by a Dread Necromancer.

... and if you do that, the LA ought to increase.

So basically:
- Without splat support, the LA is "unplayable" because of the Int: --
- With splat support, the LA is complicated.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Awaken undead is specific to mindless undead, all the rest is not. When considering the skeleton's intelligence drawback, we don't have to consider Corpsecrafter et al.

Given that it's fairly easy* for skeletons to become intelligent, and the spell even restores extraordinary abilities (poisonous skeletons, oh yeah), it has to be taken into account when assigning LA. It's a really obvious step, and a lot of people will consider it a requirement to playing a skeleton, a bit like Natural Spell on a druid.

Of course, awaken undead assigns an intelligence score of 1d6+4, which effectively translates to a variable intelligence penalty/bonus of -6 to +0, replacing the base race's intelligence penalty. Orc skeletons are a whole lot better than human skeletons, and the LA should reflect that (by comparing to beatstick races over caster races, I mean). +1 is probably fair for the beatstick-type builds you're going to get.


*A seventh-level standard-action spell and 250 XP. Constructs require an eight-hour ninth-level spell and 5000 XP, animals require a twenty-four hour fifth-level spell and 250 XP, but then they start with an intelligence score, and gain RHD.

[No brains]

3spooky5me. I guess that works out to +8 LA.

I honestly think -0 would be the LA for a base skeleton because int - is going to really hurt int he long run. It's little benefits are nice, but they can't hold a character for long. Even at low levels, no skills and no feats means you won't have your bag of tricks in addition to the tricks anyone else can take. Also d12 HD without con isn't really that good, so you can't be a big dumb brawler. You could make a decent cleric or druid, but few things couldn't.

If you do go so far as adding in delicious splat cheese, that could boost the LA into positive numbers. Not only do you get back a good amount of long-lasting melee power, but with int and cha back, the sky's the limit for what you can achieve. ****boys beware!

[Nifft]

If you do go so far as adding in delicious splat cheese, that could boost the LA into positive numbers. Not only do you get back a good amount of long-lasting melee power, but with int and cha back, the sky's the limit for what you can achieve. ****boys beware!

I will forever assume that you wrote "boneboys beware!"

[javcs]

The Improved Familiar feat does, in fact, though at the level it becomes available (level 5), 4d8 damage isn't that cool anymore.

Then again, it's a good use of your familiars action, and free area damage every turn for a single feat never hurt a build. I can see people taking it, especially in less high-op games.

For a Shocker Lizard to take Improved Familiar for another Shocker Lizard, they have to be at least 7th level (2 RHD + 5 Arcane caster levels), or take Practiced Spellcaster, and then they need 3 levels of an arcane spellcasting class.
Shocker Lizards are really bad arcanists. I think the only viable option for them is a no-saves Warlock, but that requires taking Obtain Familiar as well.



I could reasonably see 2 players doing this for 8d8x4 damage a round, and from their I could see another player grabbing a shocker lizard as familier
Two players locking in sub-par race choices and feat choice, playing sub-optimal class options for that race choice. And minimally level 6, more likely not until level 9.
Also, it's just 8d8, not 8d8x4. All contributing Shocker Lizards need to spend a Standard Action on their turn to contribute.
And, Reflex DC 14 Save for Half - DC is 10 + number of contributing Shocker Lizards. It's not going to improve much, and when you get it, it's not a lot of damage for the action economy investment (two PC's standard actions, plus their familiars), and most enemies will have even or better odds of making the save for Half.


That's the reason I gave them +0, yes. They're not completely unplayable, and can be used quite efficiently in some situations (as opposed to stuff like Colossal Animated Objects, which are just crap).
True, they're not unplayable, but they're a weak +0 at best, IMO. Their racial abilities are mostly useless.


--
--



Skeletons ...

It depends on how you're getting your Intelligence back. If your method of choice doesn't also improve Charisma (and maybe Wisdom), it's a -0, even without RHD.

If you get your Charisma and Wisdom scores redone, and get a decent Intelligence score, it's maybe a +1 if you don't have RHD.

Edit: Of course, splats and backstory/creation liberalities could improve the LA, but then you owe a Necromancer, or are an escapee from a Necromancer, or escaped the downfall of the Necromancer (you may owe him) and are possibly hunted for surviving/escaping.

[WhamBamSam]

Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work. Improved Familiar requires a spellcaster level, not a caster level. So there's no way around needing to be at least 7th level to get another Shocker Lizard that way.

[javcs]

Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work. Improved Familiar requires a spellcaster level, not a caster level. So there's no way around needing to be at least 7th level to get another Shocker Lizard that way.

Right you are.

And 4d8 Reflex DC 12 (Half) at level 7+, centered on you or your familiar isn't that great.

[dragonsamurai77]

Not necessarily related to them as PCs, but regarding Shocker Lizard minionmancy, a level 1 Human Druid with 18 Charisma, Skill Focus (Handle Animal), and Animal Affinity can take 10 on checks to rear shocker lizards, DM allowing of course. (10 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 23, DC = 15 + 5 (magical beast) + 2 (HD) = 22)

[Inevitability]

Skum

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG228.jpg

For when between locathah, aquatic elves, kuo-toa, sahuagin, and merfolk you can't quite find the right underwater humanoid, here's skum, which originated from aboleth doing unholy things to humans.

Two aberration HD come with quite the interesting features. +8 strength is most notable, and the dexterity and constitution bonuses are interesting as well. -4 charisma sucks, but it's only charisma. Skum breathe both water and air, have a decent land speed and a good swimming speed, and even get a phletora of natural attacks (bite, claw, claw, rake, rake).

Finally, skum get a few skill bonuses when underwater.

I found myself considering both +0 and +1 LA, but I'll be going with +0 in the end. Skum are already losing a point of BAB, and half their stat bonuses could already be gotten by being a water orc. Also: aberration HD suck.

+0 LA.

[lord_khaine]

I found myself considering both +0 and +1 LA, but I'll be going with +0 in the end. Skum are already losing a point of BAB, and half their stat bonuses could already be gotten by being a water orc. Also: aberration HD suck.

I disagree with that line of reasoning. Water Orcs is already a borderline +1 LA race when comparing it to the normal PHB races. And comparing each new thing to the top of the class is the way that power creep runs rampant.

So when we compare a Skum fighter1 with a human fighter 3, or a Skum Monk1 with a human Monk 3, then the Skum is wastly superior. It has a total of +12 physical attributes, +2 natural armor, natural attacks. And darkvision as well.

[Celestia]

I disagree with that line of reasoning. Water Orcs is already a borderline +1 LA race when comparing it to the normal PHB races. And comparing each new thing to the top of the class is the way that power creep runs rampant.

So when we compare a Skum fighter1 with a human fighter 3, or a Skum Monk1 with a human Monk 3, then the Skum is wastly superior. It has a total of +12 physical attributes, +2 natural armor, natural attacks. And darkvision as well.
Water orc, a race that gets no actual racial traits, is +1? These legs may be shapely, but they aren't for pulling.

[BrickTheToasted]

I have an eternal, undying hatred of aberration HD, but the stat bonuses are nice, and I suppose the natural armor is better than nothing. All in all, it's a reasonable chassis that could work for some bruiser builds, but doesn't really bring much to the table that you couldn't replicate elsewhere. All in all, seems like a textbook +0 race.

[Lans]

I feel like skum is just a tad to good for +0

[Nifft]

Yeah the +8 Str is pretty beefy. The +2 Dex / +2 Con / -4 Cha isn't bad either.

Aberration type is nice for some builds, and it comes with 3 natural weapons (5 underwater). You're well positioned for a Totemist + Rapidstrike, for example, or a more traditional Gish.

+4 to 3 good skills (situational); aquatic and +8 to Swim (depends); Darkvision (okay).

If you're in an aquatic campaign, or if you're in a game where you expect to be in the water even 25% of the time, then they've got racial perks which are good.

If you're in a desert where there will never be enough water to swim, they're still good as a base.

LA +1.

[Mike Miller]

Very early on they will be an excellent choice, but their benefits quickly become nothing special. +0

[Remuko]

I'll throw in +0 for Skum as well.

[Thurbane]

Yeah the +8 Str is pretty beefy. The +2 Dex / +2 Con / -4 Cha isn't bad either.

Aberration type is nice for some builds, and it comes with 3 natural weapons (5 underwater). You're well positioned for a Totemist + Rapidstrike, for example, or a more traditional Gish.

+4 to 3 good skills (situational); aquatic and +8 to Swim (depends); Darkvision (okay).

If you're in an aquatic campaign, or if you're in a game where you expect to be in the water even 25% of the time, then they've got racial perks which are good.

If you're in a desert where there will never be enough water to swim, they're still good as a base.

LA +1.

I'm a bit strapped for time (I haven't been posting much in this thread lately), so I'm just going to say I agree with this analysis, and also vote LA +1.

[Inevitability]

+0 seems to be slightly in the majority, so the LA will remain there.

Slaadi shall be covered soonish.

[Nifft]

Slaadi shall be covered soonish.

You take the good, you take the bad,
You wrap them in a frog that's mad,
And that's a Slaad, and that's a Slaad!

There's a time you got to go and find,
You're planar binding every kind,
And that's a Slaad, and that's a Slaad!

When the world sometimes seems,
To be full of chaos and screams,
And suddenly you're finding out,
The fact that Slaad are all around you!

http://i.imgur.com/Rpmqpty.jpg

[ErebusVonMori]

That is the most sinister frog I have ever seen, and yet still strangely adorable.

[lord_khaine]

Water orc, a race that gets no actual racial traits, is +1? These legs may be shapely, but they aren't for pulling.

Clearly they are not really for standing on either. Who cares about traits when you get +6 physical attributes?

[Inevitability]

Slaad (1)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZwEANUAikAM/VZQxGhnrfpI/AAAAAAAAEd8/BXxP3ZMdnic/s1600/241slaad4e.jpg

No witty remark is going to beat the beauty that's three posts above this. Go enjoy it if you haven't seen it before yet.

By the way, has anyone noticed slaad are 'usually' chaotic neutral, rather than 'always'? Then again, I guess that if they were inherently bound to one alignment, they'd hardly be creatures of pure chaos.

Also, the slaad brooder prestige class will be largely ignored for being just not that interesting.


Red Slaad

7 outsider RHD, large size, good physical but bad mental stats, and the random immunities and resistances every outsider seems to get. Sonic immunity is actually kinda neat if only for being so rare, and fast healing is welcome on every character.

Pounce for free is very neat, especially with such a strong bite attack. The claws are less impressive, unless you're the kind of person who likes the idea of creating giant armies of self-propagating spawn (and in that case: be a shadow).

Red slaadi can once per day perform a Stunning Croak, which is a short-lasting unfriendly Save or Suck in a small area that eats up your action that turn. I fail to be impressed. They can also attempt to Summon another red slaad each day, though it's not going to appear most of the time.

All things considered, +2 LA should be fine.



Blue Slaad

One more HD than reds, and small bonuses to strength, constitution and charisma compared to them as well. Blues, however, get four rather than two claw attacks, which also have dramatically increased in power. Their bite attack now spreads a disease, of all things, which turns its victims into red slaadi. Ah yes, I suppose I shall bite this guy then wait around for a few weeks until he finally turns into an entropic megafrog that's still hostile to me.

Rather than Pounce and Stunning Croak, blues get at-will Hold Person, Passwall and Telekinesis, and 1/day Chaos Hammer, all at CL 8. Those are some quite powerful spells, and combined with the sheer melee might and great HD, this seems like another +2 to me.



Green Slaad

9 HD this time. Better mental stats and slightly worse physical ones than the two previous slaadi, okay natural attacks, and more of the same random resistances and immunities. Also opposable thumbs, which reds and blues very possibly don't have.

Change Shape into large or medium humanoids is useful, but only for disguise.

Finally, more SLAs than you can shake a stick at (unless the stick is a Wand of Dispel Magic, of course), starting with at-will Chaos Hammer, Detect Magic, Detect Thoughts, Fear, Protection From Law, See Invisibility, and Shatter. It's not bad per se, but the fact that clerics got the highest-level thing a few levels ago is somewhat sad. 3/day Dispel Law, Deeper Darkness and Fireball are little better.

In the end, I think this critter too deserves +1 LA.

[Celestia]

Clearly they are not really for standing on either. Who cares about traits when you get +6 physical attributes?
Because that +6 to attributes comes with an additional -6 to attributes. Also, light sensitivity and fire vulnerability. Traits matter when they're detrimental.

[danielxcutter]

Side question: how tough are these guys as encounters? What about advancement - what classes fit them well?

[Nifft]

Man it's annoying that Slaadi are not in the SRD.

The stat bonuses seem to be decent for at least one Martial Initiator, though the Int penalty for Red & Blue does hurt.

Ironically Green is the best Martial Initiator.

Their fast healing is pretty nice. As long as you survive the fight, you'll be at full health for the next fight -- so basically you don't need the usual Wand of Lesser Vigor re-up between action scenes.

Not really sure about LA, gonna think about some builds.

[Inevitability]

Slaad (2)

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/30/Death_slaad-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170331234953

More anarchic anura!


Gray Slaad

10 RHD (slaad HD progression is surprisingly ordered, it seems), the default fast healing and energy resistance package, DR/lawful (quite nice), +4 to +10 to all stats, Change Shape into any humanoid form, and a ton of SLAs, with the at-will ones including Identify, Invisibility, and Lightning Bolt, while the ones usable less often are Animate Objects and Power Word Stun, amongst others.

Summon Slaad is a bit more complicated than it's with earlier versions. Gray slaad can't summon others of their kind, but they can summon a green, a blue, or even two reds should they want to.

Once more the question is whether to assign +1 or +2, once more I'll go with +1.


Death Slaad

In breaking with slaad rules (if that's not an oxymoron), these have a whopping fifteen RHD and are CE rather than CN. Other than that, these are basically gray slaadi with better stats, stronger natural attacks, bigger summons, more SLAs, and a 3/day stun rider on their natural weapons.

SLAs do include potentially juicy stuff, but we're talking about 15th-level characters here. +0 should be okay.

Do discuss, people.

[lord_khaine]

Because that +6 to attributes comes with an additional -6 to attributes. Also, light sensitivity and fire vulnerability. Traits matter when they're detrimental.

And i might agree on that evening out of all attributes were equal, but unfortunately they are not. People dont divide their points out evenly in the case of point buy. They prioritise attributes they need over the ones they dont. So of course, being able to add 6 to the attributes you care about, in return for taking 6 from the ones you dont, is a massive advantage.

So when comparing water orcs to humans the increased strenght means the water orc will be superior in most cases. The light sensitivity comes with darkvision to compensate, and fire vulnerability is hardly significant.


7 outsider RHD, large size, good physical but bad mental stats, and the random immunities and resistances every outsider seems to get. Sonic immunity is actually kinda neat if only for being so rare, and fast healing is welcome on every character.

Large size, +8 natural armor, pounce, natural weapons, fast healing, resistance to all elements, and superior physical attributes are worth more than 1 lost level, and the opportunity cost from 7 HD. With just 1 level in a PC class a red Slaad seems superior to a level 9 psionic warrior or warblade.


One more HD than reds, and small bonuses to strength, constitution and charisma compared to them as well. Blues, however, get four rather than two claw attacks, which also have dramatically increased in power. Their bite attack now spreads a disease, of all things, which turns its victims into red slaadi. Ah yes, I suppose I shall bite this guy then wait around for a few weeks until he finally turns into an entropic megafrog that's still hostile to me.

Here is now +9 NA, +24 total physichal attributes, 4 natural attacks, and a few utility spell like abilities. I cant see any normally build pc competing with this at level 10, but the only reason for why i wont bother saying +3 LA is that i know noone else will agree with this. Still, +2 LA at the very least. Playing a monster race should not be a ticket to leave all the melee classes obselete.


9 HD this time. Better mental stats and slightly worse physical ones than the two previous slaadi, okay natural attacks, and more of the same random resistances and immunities. Also opposable thumbs, which reds and blues very possibly don't have.

Change Shape into large or medium humanoids is useful, but only for disguise.

Finally, more SLAs than you can shake a stick at (unless the stick is a Wand of Dispel Magic, of course), starting with at-will Chaos Hammer, Detect Magic, Detect Thoughts, Fear, Protection From Law, See Invisibility, and Shatter. It's not bad per se, but the fact that clerics got the highest-level thing a few levels ago is somewhat sad. 3/day Dispel Law, Deeper Darkness and Fireball are little better.

They can spam save-or-lose spells at will, but at this point i guess +1 LA is fair. Competition from spellcasters are getting kinda intense at this point. And there are limited options for advancement. Besides turning into a Grey Slaad.


10 RHD (slaad HD progression is surprisingly ordered, it seems), the default fast healing and energy resistance package, DR/lawful (quite nice), +4 to +10 to all stats, Change Shape into any humanoid form, and a ton of SLAs, with the at-will ones including Identify, Invisibility, and Lightning Bolt, while the ones usable less often are Animate Objects and Power Word Stun, amongst others.

It is surprisingly tough, with +11 NA, elemental resistance, fast healing, DR and +10 con. The long list of spelllike abilities gives it a lot of options, but it is a less effective physical combatant. I guess +1 LA will be fair here as well.


In breaking with slaad rules (if that's not an oxymoron), these have a whopping fifteen RHD and are CE rather than CN. Other than that, these are basically gray slaadi with better stats, stronger natural attacks, bigger summons, more SLAs, and a 3/day stun rider on their natural weapons.

SLAs do include potentially juicy stuff, but we're talking about 15th-level characters here. +0 should be okay.

The Death Slaad not only makes a great melee combatant almost right out of the box, it also comes with an unusually potent list of spell-like abilities. At will it has things like Animate Object, Fear, Fireball and Finger of Death. And at least once per day it can cast things like Word of Chaos or Implosion.

I think Implosion with improved DC (racial charisma bonus) is enough to push this up to LA +1.

[Remuko]

Slaad (2)

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/30/Death_slaad-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170331234953

More anarchic anura!


Gray Slaad

10 RHD (slaad HD progression is surprisingly ordered, it seems), the default fast healing and energy resistance package, DR/lawful (quite nice), +4 to +10 to all stats, Change Shape into any humanoid form, and a ton of SLAs, with the at-will ones including Identify, Invisibility, and Lightning Bolt, while the ones usable less often are Animate Objects and Power Word Stun, amongst others.

Summon Slaad is a bit more complicated than it's with earlier versions. Gray slaad can't summon others of their kind, but they can summon a green, a blue, or even two reds should they want to.

Once more the question is whether to assign +1 or +2, once more I'll go with +1.


Death Slaad

In breaking with slaad rules (if that's not an oxymoron), these have a whopping fifteen RHD and are CE rather than CN. Other than that, these are basically gray slaadi with better stats, stronger natural attacks, bigger summons, more SLAs, and a 3/day stun rider on their natural weapons.

SLAs do include potentially juicy stuff, but we're talking about 15th-level characters here. +0 should be okay.

Do discuss, people.

Agree with all of your ratings here.

[Celestia]

And i might agree on that evening out of all attributes were equal, but unfortunately they are not. People dont divide their points out evenly in the case of point buy. They prioritise attributes they need over the ones they dont. So of course, being able to add 6 to the attributes you care about, in return for taking 6 from the ones you dont, is a massive advantage.

So when comparing water orcs to humans the increased strenght means the water orc will be superior in most cases. The light sensitivity comes with darkvision to compensate, and fire vulnerability is hardly significant.
What kind of character doesn't care about skill points or will saves? The only penalty that doesn't hurt is the charisma, and dwarves have the same non-perishable alt1 without losing the other two mental stats.

Dwarves also get darkvision without the light sensitivity.

I love how you say that taking 50% more damage doesn't matter. After all, fire damage is incredibly rare, isn't it? Oh wait.

Water orcs get few benefits, and every single one is counterbalanced by a detriment. They aren't even particularly strong compared to other +0 races, and yet you want to call them +1? That's hilarious.

[Nifft]

Slaadi have enough RHD that I'm not finding problems with the +1 or +0 ranges proposed.

With that fast healing, they could be fun Crusaders.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I agree with Lord Khaine's assessments, Red and Blue especially need a higher LA.

Their HD:CR ratio is specially telling, Red, Blue, Green and Grey are all 1:1 here. Outsider HD don't exactly hurt.

Fast Healing 5 is pretty damn hard to get. Immunity to sonic is neat, and while low, resistances are resistances. Plenty of templates give much less in that area.

Counting the size increase:

-Reds get +18 STR, +2 DEX, +10 CON, +10 NA +10 STR, +4 DEX, +6 CON, +8 NA. That's a good boost, especially with built-in Pounce and three natural attacks. Yeah, -4 INT and WIS and -2 CHA aren't good, but who cares, when you are as strong as an adult Dragon?

7 HD and CR 7, large size, has reach.

I'd say +2 LA is an easy choice Due to misscalculating the ability score adjustments, it's not a given anymore. Still, I do maintain +2 LA here. You are easily on par, or better, than a Barbarian 9. Much stronger and harder to hit, significantly toughter. These kind of ability score boosts will keep on giving. Chassis is great, Pouce and three natural attacks are even better.

-Blues keep all the good things from Reds, no penalty to CHA, same -4 to INT and WIS, +20 STR, +2 DEX, +12 CON, +11 NA +12 STR, +4 DEX, +8 CON, +9 NA. You are at the very least on-par with a Red that took a class level, if not better, due to how good you racial HD is. 8 HD, CR 8.

But wait, there is more! At-will Hold Person and Telekinesis! And Passwall, which sounds like it's there just for kicks, but that's two fifth level Wizard spells at-will. Saves are Charisma-based, you have no bonuses, but no penalties there either.

You thought it was good? What about five natural attacks, 4*2d6 and a bite for 2d8? Of course, those four claws deal your full strenght in damage.

No Pounce, unfortunately, but that won't take long to remedy now, will it? Even then, you don't exactly need it to be good.

Here's a very strong +2 LA. Even after correcting the calculation for ability score mods. Still Large, still has Reach.

-Greens keep to the trend, another HD, another point of CR. The Natural Attacks Train slows down a bit, back to two claws and a bite, and the claws don't hit like greatswords anymore. Upsides are no penalties to INT or WIS, a slight bonus to CHA, and another buckeload of NA: +20 STR, +12 CON, +15 NA +12 STR, +2 DEX, +8 CON, +13 NA, +2 CHA. So, far, it looks a match for Blues, the lack of the monstrous claw attacks made up by a much easier time getting use out of those sweet 8+Int skill points, mostly same stats, a good bit more NA, if slightly less DEX. Less offense, more utility. You are still at full bab here with +12 Strenght, so hey, "less" doesn't mean "little" here. Extra HD also gets you a new feat on top of Blues. I think it would be a better fit to most games than the Blues, honestly, no one will notice how the gory chunks the enemies are left in are slightly smaller than your Blue friend's target.

The SLAs, however, change the game.

Fear at-will is great. Chaos Hammer, now at-will, becomes significantly more appealing, as it's still a 20ft radius burst with a Slow rider effect. At-will See Invisibility and Protection from X is something many of my characters wished they had, and at-will Detect Thoughts and Shatter are similarly handy. The 3/day SLAs, Dispel Law, Deeper Darkness and Fireball, aren't outstanding, but still, a fifth level spell and two third level ones, with a significant number of castings per day, that's solid.

It's a well-balanced +2, IMO. You will be hitting AC in the 40s without even trying, you are one mere point behind on the base save for those with a good progression, of which you have all three saves as, and you will be probably rocking a +12~+14 STR mod. You will have no problem being a melee blender, a strong warlock and a full-on skill monkey at the same time.

Eeven after correcting the stats, I again maintain the LA. It's a well rounded character on its own, now less ridiculous in sheer strenght. Still Large, has reach.

-Greys, 10 HD and CR 10. Downgraded to Medium, it has a great stat spred of STR +8, DEX +6, CON +10, INT +4, WIS +4 and CHA +4. NA goes down to a more manageable, if still high, +11, and they get DR10/Lawful on top of the usual Slaad package of Fast Healing and Resistances.

Two good Claws and the same great Bite attack, much less STR (if still a very sizeable bonus) and no Reach makes them the weakest of the Slaad combatants so far, but they have the highest HD yet, and most notably, a big positive mod to INT. They'd make for fantastic skill-monkey types, their defences are still strong, with a fat DEX bonus and still very high NA, their Constitution is close to their Large cousins, and their DR pretty sweet.

SLA-wise, they are a straight upgrande from Greens for the most part, Magic Circle instead of Protection from X, at-will Invisibility to complement the package, Lightning Bolt for an alternative to Chaos Hammer. Animate Objects is an odd one, a Huge Animated Object is more or less on par with SNA IV~V, I'd say, Fly is handy, Dispel Law is strong, and Power Word Stun makes for a nasty ace-in-the-hole.

Still great defenses, but only decent offense, competitive SLAs, great chassis for skills. Bonus to your SLA's DC.

I think we might be generous and say it's comparable to the Green fellow, and give it +1 LA. It's the better pseudo-caster and skill monkey of the two and has an extra HD, but I do believe they compete at the same level. The better SLAs don't fully make up for the sheer devastation wrought by a strenght in the 40s.

-Death Slaad, 15 HD and CR 13. Now, these bear examining with more care.

Medium, two claws and a bite that are nonetheless off the charts (3d6 claws and 2d10 bite on a medium creature). +12 NA is much more reasonable at ECL15+, but still sizeable. As far as chassis goes, you are winning at life with 15 Outsider HD.

Stat mods are STR +10, DEX +12, CON +10, INT +8, WIS +8 and CHA +8. On top of the Grey's goodies (DR, Resistances, Fast Healing), you get 100ft of telepathy. Can you say "Mindsight"? Stat spread is, of course, nothing to scoff at, but we are reaching levels when you need more than these to stay competitive. Of course, someone rocking 12~14 skill points per level isn't exactly without a role. Your defenses are still good, if not great, being comparable to other Slaads, only now more level-appropriate.

I'd call it an easy +0 if that were it. Decent melee, good defences, great skill monkey. But we still haven't gotten to the SLAs:
animate objects, chaos hammer, deeper darkness, detect magic, dispel law, fear, finger of death, fireball, fly, identify, invisibility, magic circle against law, see invisibility, shatter; 3/day—circle of death , cloak of chaos , word of chaos ;
1/day—implosion, power word blind.

Now ain't that quite the list. Very coherent with previous Slaad progressions, upgrading usual spells and adding a next tier. Circle of Death, Cloak of Chaos, Word of Chaos. Three high level, high power spells, each castable a number of times equal to or greater than a caster of the same level. 1/day Implosion and Power Word Blind are a very juicy cherry on top of this cake.

Not to mention that at-will Finger of Death that sneaked by.

The saves are Charisma based, of which you have a racial +8 bonus, the high level spells are all great, the at-wills are useful and add a good deal of versatility to the character.

I'd say a LA of +1 wouldn't be out of order. It's a very capable pseudo-caster, has all-around good ability mods, comprehensive SLAs with some powerhouse additions, good defences, great chassis, very capable as a skill monkey, makes an acceptable secondary melee with +15 BAB, +10 STR and three strong natural attacks, besides the Stun ability.

[Celestia]

Words
I agree with this assessment.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+1 seems good for the gray since that will make it difficult to acquire a 10 level Prc even with buyoff and death s awesome for +0 but will struggle to do much beyond that. It does seem to compare well to martial 15.

[lord_khaine]

What kind of character doesn't care about skill points or will saves? The only penalty that doesn't hurt is the charisma, and dwarves have the same non-perishable alt1 without losing the other two mental stats.

Dwarves also get darkvision without the light sensitivity.

I love how you say that taking 50% more damage doesn't matter. After all, fire damage is incredibly rare, isn't it? Oh wait.

Water orcs get few benefits, and every single one is counterbalanced by a detriment. They aren't even particularly strong compared to other +0 races, and yet you want to call them +1? That's hilarious.

The sort of character whose main joy in life is to crush his enemies, and see them driven before him?
And yeah, dwarfs are one of the stronger fighting races, though they still take a hit to base speed. And they dont get the +4 main stat.

Besides that, taking 50% more fire damage would indeed suck a lot.
Thankfully, you are wrong, and they dont take 50% increased fire damage.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Evil's post confuses me. I looked up green salad and got a Stat pan of +12 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Cha and +13 NA, which are radically different numbers. Blue's are +12 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int and Wis with +9 NA. Red's have +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int and Wis and -2 Cha with 8 NA. His numbers for grey and death salad are accurate to my copy. I am wondering where those numbers are coming from and why they are so different.

[Caelestion]

Besides that, taking 50% more fire damage would indeed suck a lot. Thankfully, you are wrong, and they dont take 50% increased fire damage.

A creature with fire vulnerability takes 50% extra damage from fire, whether they save or not.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Water Orc are not have fire vulnerability. They simply take a -2 on saves vs a bunch of stuff such as fire spells and the effects of Fire creatures.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Evil's post confuses me. I looked up green salad and got a Stat pan of +12 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Cha and +13 NA, which are radically different numbers. Blue's are +12 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int and Wis with +9 NA. Red's have +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int and Wis and -2 Cha with 8 NA. His numbers for grey and death salad are accurate to my copy. I am wondering where those numbers are coming from and why they are so different.

"Accounting for the size increase". Medium -> Large gets +8 STR, +4 CON, -2 DEX, +2 NA.

That's why Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre are so widely considered to be broken, they get you fat ability bonuses by themselves, but they also make you large.

[Inevitability]

"Accounting for the size increase". Medium -> Large gets +8 STR, +4 CON, -2 DEX, +2 NA.

That's why Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre are so widely considered to be broken, they get you fat ability bonuses by themselves, but they also make you large.

That is... not how it works. If a Large monster is listed as having 21 strength, then its racial strength bonus is +10, not +18. The +8 from size is only relevant when additional HD or a template increase a monster's size.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I just had a realization as I wrote that answer. Such embarassment!

I was going off Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre, was just checking the wording on "becomes Large" and realized the mistake, and came rushing to edit.

Maintaing the LAs, tho.

[lord_khaine]

Water Orc are not have fire vulnerability. They simply take a -2 on saves vs a bunch of stuff such as fire spells and the effects of Fire creatures.

Indeed, no wonder people think Water Orcs are reasonable if its a common mistake that they takes increased fire damage.

[Inevitability]

So I took another look at the comments, and it seems that people generally agree on +1 for greens and grays (which will therefore not change). However, a majority suggested +2 for red and blue slaads, and I shall increase their LA as a result. A small majority wanted to keep deaths +0, and so there they will stay.

[Celestia]

Water Orc are not have fire vulnerability. They simply take a -2 on saves vs a bunch of stuff such as fire spells and the effects of Fire creatures.
It seems you are correct. My mistake. It still changes nothing, though. They just have a slightly less terrible detriment than I thought, but it is still a detriment.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In breaking with slaad rules (if that's not an oxymoron), these have a whopping fifteen RHD and are CE rather than CN.
Isn't it weird that the embodiments of chaos have CE variants but not CG ones? If the alignment square is an accurate reflection of D&D metaphysics, surely there would be some life slaads too?



What kind of character doesn't care about skill points or will saves?
Non-skillmonkey characters often don't care about skill points, as long as they have enough to keep vital skills like Spot and Listen up. Which is harder to do at 2+Int if you have a racial Intelligence penalty.
Divine casters don't worry too much about Will saves. Of course, that's because it's a good save and they have good Wisdom.


Water orcs get few benefits, and every single one is counterbalanced by a detriment. They aren't even particularly strong compared to other +0 races, and yet you want to call them +1? That's hilarious.
Water orcs are great if all you worry about are your physical Attributes. Otherwise...they're not terrible, like half-orcs are, but they're nothing special. When bull's strength lets you mimic your race's main feature, I'm not impressed.

[Nodsiu]

Isn't it weird that the embodiments of chaos have CE variants but not CG ones? If the alignment square is an accurate reflection of D&D metaphysics, surely there would be some life slaads too?

It doesn't have to make sense

[Thurbane]

Maybe they evolved from Hezrous that got trapped in Limbo?

[GreatWyrmGold]

It doesn't have to make sense
...Erm...why?

[Celestia]

...Erm...why?
I'm guessing the answer is "because chaos."

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm guessing the answer is "because chaos."
That's not what chaos means! It's not "I can make up whatever I feel like and don't have to put any effort into thinking about why because chaos," nor does it even mean that it's inherently illogical. Chaos is just hard to predict. That's it! Heck, even chaos can be easy to predict if you focus on the large-scale. Take turbulent flow (a classic example of chaos theory in action), for instance. It's not easy to guess what direction any particular bit of water will be flowing at any given time, but it's all going to move downstream sooner or later.

[Celestia]

That's not what chaos means! It's not "I can make up whatever I feel like and don't have to put any effort into thinking about why because chaos," nor does it even mean that it's inherently illogical. Chaos is just hard to predict. That's it! Heck, even chaos can be easy to predict if you focus on the large-scale. Take turbulent flow (a classic example of chaos theory in action), for instance. It's not easy to guess what direction any particular bit of water will be flowing at any given time, but it's all going to move downstream sooner or later.
B-but chaos! D':

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn't it weird that the embodiments of chaos have CE variants but not CG ones? If the alignment square is an accurate reflection of D&D metaphysics, surely there would be some life slaads too?
I'm not 100% on this, but I think death slaad are corrupted by the same binding that keeps the slaadi more or less in the same form, as species. In ye olden days, slaadi were even more disparate, but some order was imposed on them in order to rule them, by two of the most powerful slaadi. Their lust for power keeps pure chaos in check. Or that's my headcanon, anyway.

[Nifft]

Yeah I've always viewed Slaadi as a species that evolved to live in Limbo, and not an "embodiment of chaos" or any such metaphysical thing.

Their reproduction cycle is NOT "chaos making babies", it's either through disease or xenomorph chest-busting.

They are associated with chaos, but hey're not "chaos incarnate".

They're just big magic Limbo frogs.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Slaad were chaos incarnate before the Slaad lords messed it up and, AFAIK, they still are.

[Thurbane]

Just a random, not-really-related question: are there any outsiders (besides Formians) with the Lawful subtype that don't also have either the Evil or Good subtypes?

I just checked the web enhancement for MotP, and unless there was errata, the Modrons don't even have a subtype.

[Nifft]

Just a random, not-really-related question: are there any outsiders (besides Formians) with the Lawful subtype that don't also have either the Evil or Good subtypes?

I just checked the web enhancement for MotP, and unless there was errata, the Modrons don't even have a subtype.

http://i.imgur.com/t90Xalk.png

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah I've always viewed Slaadi as a species that evolved to live in Limbo, and not an "embodiment of chaos" or any such metaphysical thing. [snip]
I guess that makes sense, but pretty much the same argument could be made for outsiders of other planes, except maybe modrons. Take guardinals—why is "good incarnate" a bunch of animal-people?
And on that subject, wouldn't this leave Limbo's only native chaos-ey guys as chaos beasts? Kinda disappointing for the chaotic plane to not have native chaos outsiders, when basically every other alignment has a whole set of native outsiders dedicated to it.


http://i.imgur.com/t90Xalk.png
Neat. What website is that from? I don't recognize it.

[Thurbane]

Neat. What website is that from? I don't recognize it.

D&D Monster Finder :: Find monsters (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/)

It's a great resource, but just be aware it is a missing a few books (I manually exported all of the entries into a spreadsheet once). Can't remember off the top of my head which were missing...

[Nifft]

I guess that makes sense, but pretty much the same argument could be made for outsiders of other planes, except maybe modrons. Take guardinals—why is "good incarnate" a bunch of animal-people?

I don't think that's a valid comparison.



In their home on Elysium, avoral guardianals are peaceful and friendly. Elsewhere, they serve as powerful emissaries of pure good.


Slaadi are not "emissaries of pure chaos". They're just chaos-aligned chest-buster parasites and/or diseased humanoids who survive in Limbo.

[Inevitability]

Yeah I've always viewed Slaadi as a species that evolved to live in Limbo, and not an "embodiment of chaos" or any such metaphysical thing.

Their reproduction cycle is NOT "chaos making babies", it's either through disease or xenomorph chest-busting.

They are associated with chaos, but hey're not "chaos incarnate".

They're just big magic Limbo frogs.

This seems accurate. If anything, chaos beasts are much more fitting in limbo, both in terms of alignment and appearance-wise.


Just a random, not-really-related question: are there any outsiders (besides Formians) with the Lawful subtype that don't also have either the Evil or Good subtypes?

I just checked the web enhancement for MotP, and unless there was errata, the Modrons don't even have a subtype.

Dragon magazine modrons have a subtype, for all that's worth. They're also constructs, though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't think that's a valid comparison.

Slaadi are not "emissaries of pure chaos". They're just chaos-aligned chest-buster parasites and/or diseased humanoids who survive in Limbo.
Your arguments were that various aspects of slaadi aren't really "chaos incarnate". Why would chaos incarnate reproduce through disease or parasitism? (And I actually could give an answer, if you cared. Incidentally, it's related to why chaos beasts corrupt other things into more chaos beasts.)

Also...they're not humanoids, they're outsiders. And while they're not described as emissaries, they are still chaos-aligned outsiders. Just about the only pure chaos outsiders out there, in fact; the only other one I can come up with off the top of my head are chaos beasts and titans, and the latter are obviously nowhere near as chaotically-focused as slaads (nor are either as supported by splatbook material, the way that guardinals, angels, archons, eladrins, demons, devils, yugoloths, and oh yeah, slaads are).



This seems accurate. If anything, chaos beasts are much more fitting in limbo, both in terms of alignment and appearance-wise.
They fit in Limbo, but they don't fit as the chaotic counterpart to guardinals, yugoloths, or even modrons...due to being, you know, a single species which barely gets mentioned outside the Monster Manual.

[Thurbane]

Just out of curiosity, I did a quick search of creatures with the Chaotic subtype (without also having Evil or Good) that aren't Slaadi:


Chaos Beast
Elite Demon War Mount (Mivilorn) (magical beast)
Entropic Reaper (undead)
Genie, Marid
Limbo Stalker
Mivilorn (magical beast)
Nishruu
Titan
Trilloch
Valkyrie

[Caelestion]

Guardinals aren't transformed petitioners like archons and aasimon are, they're 'merely' a mortal species of NG animalian outsiders from Elysium.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Guardinals aren't transformed petitioners like archons and aasimon are, they're 'merely' a mortal species of NG animalian outsiders from Elysium.
I'm not sure what the difference is or why I should care.
What I'm getting at is simple. Every good or evil alignment has a race of outsiders which are all that alignment with several subtypes, introduced in multiple sourcebooks, which act as (im)mortal incarnations of that alignment. LN has modrons which, while not outsiders, perform the same purpose for LN (and given the mechanical nature of Mechanus, I'm not sure outsiders would have been appropriate). Slaadi fulfil all the requirements (except that some are CE for some reason (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaosIsEvil)), which is both why I don't get why some are CE and why I think it would be weird if they weren't the CN demons/eladrins.
(Also, what's an aasimon?)

[Nifft]

I'm not sure what the difference is or why I should care.
...
(Also, what's an aasimon?)

This comes off as both confrontational and off-topic.

It looks like you're committed to not caring and committed to not googling.

I'm really not sure that anything related to LA ratings could possibly come out of this conversation.

[Inevitability]

Spectre

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG232.jpg

Mortals who become spectres are turned into incorporeal mockeries of their former selves, without compassion, mercy, or nipples (as shown by the above picture).

They have 7 undead RHD, and the ability scores they have all get boosted. Their flight is 80 ft. (perfect), which is nice, though I'm not sure why they have a land speed. They get a small amount of turn resistance, and their natural attack is a 1d8 damage-touch that also inflicts two negative levels. In true incorporeal undead fashion, the ones they kill turn into more spectres in a few rounds, which are obviously enslaved by the original one. As with all unlimited spawn-creation, I won't be considering it when assigning a LA.

Two of the spectre's other abilities are Sunlight Powerlessness, which removes your ability to attack and eats your actions if you're in true sunlight (ouch), and Unnatural Aura, which will scare your druid's companion and protect you from annoying wilderness encounters but is otherwise not that important.

I couldn't help but be reminded of the shadow as I wrote this. In terms of HD the spectre is in between regular and greater shadows, but it has better stats than either, what's probably a slightly better damaging mechanism, a higher speed, and stronger spawn. At least +1, and possibly +2, seems reasonable here.

I'll go with +1* for now, but please share your opinions.

[Celestia]

I suppose if you're incoporeal, you don't really need nipples anymore...

[Nifft]

Incorporeal is a big deal.

7 HD of Undead is a big price.

They have two ability non-scores (i.e. designated point-buy dump-stats), and a bonus to each remaining ability score. Any positive Cha modifier grants a Deflections bonus to AC.

As narrative annoyances, they have Sunlight Powerlessness and Unnatural Aura, both of which inhibit daytime travel.

I dunno, the +1 might be fine.

[Inevitability]

Incorporeal is a big deal.

7 HD of Undead is a big price.

They have two ability non-scores (i.e. designated point-buy dump-stats), and a bonus to each remaining ability score. Any positive Cha modifier grants a Deflections bonus to AC.

As narrative annoyances, they have Sunlight Powerlessness and Unnatural Aura, both of which inhibit daytime travel.

I dunno, the +1 might be fine.

I'd like to point out that Sunlight Powerlessness is a lot less worse if you can just move through the ground and not worry about it.


I suppose if you're incoporeal, you don't really need nipples anymore...

But where are they supposed to wear their Ghost Touch Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain now?

[javcs]

Unnatural Aura's probably about a wash. Sure, it protects you and the party from random animal encounters ... but at ECL 7+, those mostly aren't that big a deal. It also screws with animal companions and familiars, but that's probably going to affect the party more than it helps against enemies.

Sunlight Powerlessness could get irritating. Fortunately, it only applies with the real thing.

Incorporeality is, for the most part, good. However, Incorporeality has the fairly significant downside of making equipment complicated.


You're susceptible to Turn/Rebuke, though you do have a slight bonus to resist it.



How do you advance? I mean, 7RHD is a lot of your build space. Way too much to go with a caster type. You can't really go with a traditional beatstick. You've lost too many skill points on the RHD for a traditional skillmonkey, and most skillmonkeys tend towards significant equipment/gear dependency. You're sneaky enough for scouting, unless there are animals around, but your options are limited.
Martial Initiator, maybe?

[Celestia]

But where are they supposed to wear their Ghost Touch Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain now?
...Lips? Undead don't actually use their mouths to speak, anymore.

Ooo! The nose would work, too!

[Kordak]

A spectre is haunting Europe, the spectre of not having nipples....

I think +1 LA is good, I mean I'd play it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

This comes off as both confrontational and off-topic.
It looks like you're committed to not caring and committed to not googling.
Okay, the Googling thing is fair for aasimon (which I'm surprised to see isn't just misspelling "aasimar"), but no amount of Google-fu is going to explain the question which actually mattered to my point. So...this comes off as accusatory and question-dodging. Also confrontational. Though if asking what the difference between two descriptors is and what relevance this difference has to the discussion is "confrontational," that term is close to meaningless.


I'm really not sure that anything related to LA ratings could possibly come out of this conversation.
...Um...do you remember how this conversation started? Or at least this branch of the conversation?

Yeah I've always viewed Slaadi as a species that evolved to live in Limbo, and not an "embodiment of chaos" or any such metaphysical thing.
Their reproduction cycle is NOT "chaos making babies", it's either through disease or xenomorph chest-busting.
They are associated with chaos, but hey're not "chaos incarnate".
They're just big magic Limbo frogs.

Slaadi are not "emissaries of pure chaos". They're just chaos-aligned chest-buster parasites and/or diseased humanoids who survive in Limbo.
What does any of this have to do with LA ratings, and why didn't you duck out of the conversation then?

[Nifft]

Okay, the Googling thing is fair for aasimon (which I'm surprised to see isn't just misspelling "aasimar"), but no amount of Google-fu is going to explain the question which actually mattered to my point. So...this comes off as accusatory and question-dodging. Also confrontational. Though if asking what the difference between two descriptors is and what relevance this difference has to the discussion is "confrontational," that term is close to meaningless.
You were pointing your proclamation of ignorance & apathy at Caelestion, so I can't be "dodging" it.

I'm a neutral third party regarding your confrontational post against Caelestion.

This is a bystander saying: "Dude, that's borderline not okay."



...Um...do you remember how this conversation started? Or at least this branch of the conversation? Yeah: some guy was wrong on the internet, so a couple of us chimed in to correct him.

Even the OP chimed in, but that guy just kept going.

Legend says he's still going.



What does any of this have to do with LA ratings, and why didn't you duck out of the conversation then?

Man what?

Are you literally starting a derail because your initial off-topic post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22317145#post22317145) got answered, and you don't like the answers?

People are helpful. If you ask a question near the topic, you'll get helpful answers. Now you're turning around and trying to smear the people who answered YOUR OWN QUESTION (which was off-topic but not a big deal).

Dude, you're just ... biting all the hands that spoon-feed you.

[Mike Miller]

(assessment)
I'll go with +1 for now, but please share your opinions.

I agree with +1

[Caelestion]

To answer GWG's questions, aasimon are the any-Good immortal outsiders whose numbers include devas, planetars and solars, which I mentioned because you (incorrectly) suggested that guardinals were the outsiders who best represented NG. They are NG, but they're a proper celestial race, rather than planar avatars of a given alignment (e.g. archons or baatezu).

[Thurbane]

This is a bystander saying: "Dude, that's borderline not okay."

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I have to agree that a lot of GreatWyrmGold's replies come across as very rude and confrontational, having been on the receiving end myself once or twice. I don't know if there is a language barrier involved?

I'd also comment that in general, maybe in the last year or so, these forums have become a lot less friendly than they used to be. Not pointing the finger at any individual here, but the level of snarkiness, aggression and general unpleasantness has been on the rise.

[GreatWyrmGold]

To answer GWG's questions, aasimon are the any-Good immortal outsiders whose numbers include devas, planetars and solars, which I mentioned because you (incorrectly) suggested that guardinals were the outsiders who best represented NG. They are NG, but they're a proper celestial race, rather than planar avatars of a given alignment (e.g. archons or baatezu).
Ah, angels. Those aren't NG, those are Any G; there's an important distinction. (Otherwise I'd almost be counting eladrins and demons as CN outsiders.)



[in a rude tone] You're being rude!
I'll just leave that there...

[Caelestion]

Ah, angels. Those aren't NG, those are Any G; there's an important distinction.

Thank you for agreeing with me...

[Inevitability]

Sphinx

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2e/Monster_Manual_4e_-_Sphinx_-_p245.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140526161943

Sphinxes are a variety of magical beasts, the various kinds sharing little except for a general winged quadruped shape that comes with Pounce and Rake abilities. The initial MM describes four subspecies.


Androsphinx

12 magical beast HD, large size, good land and fly speeds, and great ability scores (at least +6 everywhere but in dexterity) mean we're off to a great start. The lack of natural attacks beyond two semi-neat claws is disappointing, but pounce and rake make up for that. +13 natural armor doesn't hurt either.

An androsphinx signature ability is its Roar, which can be used thrice per day and grows stronger the more often it's used in a particular encounter. The fact that it's non-friendly doesn't help, though, and the fact that it takes multiple rounds to optimally use is terrible.

Finally, androsphinxes get a small amount of cleric casting. 3rd-level spells at ECL 12 are somewhat lacking, though.

What LA to give? Compared to something like the lammasu, another flying, pouncing, magical beast that gets cleric spells (and ended up being assigned +2), I think +0 LA could be justified. The chassis is nice, but it's expensive for what's basically a gestalt fighter/adept.


Criosphinx

10 RHD, with about everything inferior to the androsphinx otherwise. No casting, weaker claws, no roar, lower speed... A well-built tier 4 or 5 could blow this out of the water with ease, if only by being able to use weapons. Pounce and high strength are neat, but not when they cost half your build. -0 LA.


Gynosphinx

8 RHD, but a chassis that's far superior to the criosphinx's and actual racial traits. Lots of SLAs, some of which aren't even available to full casters at this point, and a permanent Glyph that can be changed once per week. All of this comes with a chassis that's still got large size, pounce, and +8 strength, so it's worth a +1 in my book (arguably even a +2, in fact).


Hieracosphinx

Hawk-headed sphinxes this time. 9 RHD and a very fast fly speed, but once more nothing truly worth spending nine levels on. -0 LA.

[Remuko]

I think I agree with you on all your Sphinx assessments.

[Nifft]

Androsphinx

Finally, androsphinxes get a small amount of cleric casting. 3rd-level spells at ECL 12 are somewhat lacking, though.

What LA to give? Compared to something like the lammasu, another flying, pouncing, magical beast that gets cleric spells (and ended up being assigned +2), I think +0 LA could be justified. The chassis is nice, but it's expensive for what's basically a gestalt fighter/adept.



Gynosphinx

8 RHD, but a chassis that's far superior to the criosphinx's and actual racial traits. Lots of SLAs, some of which aren't even available to full casters at this point, and a permanent Glyph that can be changed once per week. All of this comes with a chassis that's still got large size, pounce, and +8 strength, so it's worth a +1 in my book (arguably even a +2, in fact).


Gynosphynx has the classic problem of fixed SLAs which are decent initially, but don't scale. At level 8, yeah, you'd want to slap an LA on it -- but at ECL 16, is it still worth that much?

Androsphinx spellcasting scales, but starts so far behind that it looks awful. Losing 7 caster levels to RHD just hurts too much. If Androsphinx had 8 RHD total, with Cleric 5 casting, it would be great.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Thank you for agreeing with me...
...I'm confused now. Did you think that the existence of other outsiders who can be NG negated my primary points, or were you not trying to disagree with my conclusion?



Sphinxes are a variety of magical beasts, the various kinds sharing little except for a general winged quadruped shape that comes with Pounce and Rake abilities.
Also a mythic-Pharaonic-Egyptian theme. Which is a stronger thematic link than some groups of monsters get. (Shapeshifting elf-angel things, anyone?)

[TotallyNotEvil]

Normally, 12 HD and CR 9 would be a big red flag, but honestly, in the hands of a player, Androsphinx don't have a bad chassis at all. You can go up to Cleric 14th at 20th, and that is no small amount of spellcasting power. +14 STR, +8 CON, +6 INT, WIS and CHA go a long way. In fact, they just about make up for the lower spell DCs.

I find this to be a situation similar to the Green Slaad, yet the Sphinx has a few more HD, and isn't an outsider, so I do agree with +0, even if +1 wouldn't be too out of order, I think. No screaming feature, but a bunch of nice things do add up. A good monster to play, I'd say.

The Gynosphinx is a complicated one, without the Symbol line, I'd say +1. Considering you can make one of each of the seven Symbols once a week, I'd go with +2, the +8 to all mental scores tipping it here.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Androsphinxes would make nice enough Ordained Champions, with just enough cleric casting to get quickened flame strikes at ECL ~17.

[Caelestion]

...I'm confused now. Did you think that the existence of other outsiders who can be NG negated my primary points, or were you not trying to disagree with my conclusion?

Once again, unlike what you appeared to assert, guardinals aren't transformed petitioners (i.e. the souls of mortals who enter their afterlives), as they're a true-breeding planar species, unlike archons, aasimon, baatezu and so on.

Sphinxes would also fit well in an Olympian/mythic Greece setting, for obvious reasons.

[Inevitability]

Spider Eater

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG234.jpg

"This creature is basically a bear-sized wasp monster that can paralyze its prey for weeks, lays eggs inside of them, and is supernaturally resistant to all movement-impeding effects."
"What are you going to name it after?"
"Probably its diet. It eats spiders: how crazy is that?"

4 magical beast RHD, large size without reach, a decent land speed and good fly speed, some natural armor, and okay ability scores all around, but animal intelligence and no opposable thumbs.

A spider eater's other traits aren't that important to its LA. Implant is merely a flavor thing, and the poison is very unique but unlikely to ever see much use in combat (and even then, there's easier ways to get save-or-lose poison).

Freedom of Movement, however, is essentially a free slotless 40000 GP item that gives a highly desirable effect at quite a high caster level. It's awesome, and it's going to ruin a lot of terrain effects and monster abilities.

I think the spider eater is worthy of +1 LA, just like the similar hippogriff and giant eagle/owl. Arguably, +2 might be in order, but let's stick with the lower value for now.

[Nifft]

+2 if it can use items, yeah.

Flying + freedom of movement is strong.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Monsters I Never Noticed Volume X: The Spider Eater.

The poison is pretty cool. That's got to be one of the longest-duration (nonpermanent) (mundane) effects anywhere. It's a shame Contagious Paralysis probably doesn't work with paralysis poisons, otherwise you could have a lot of fun throwing paralyzed kender at your enemies. With the base save DC of 12 + CON, the poison is not strong even when you can wait 1 minute, and resistance/immunity to poison is common, not to mention good fortitude saves and paralysis immunity. Overall, very unlikely to actually work.

With only one extra HD, you get Huge size, which is neat, with +8 STR, +4 CON, and +3 NA up for grabs. Probably some extra reach, too.

Freedom of movement is great, and probably the equivalent of some lower-level class features, but honestly, spider eaters are going to be dumb melee brutes no matter what--they aren't suited to spellcasting (or at least, they need Surrogate Spellcasting and Ur-Priest shenanigans), they are incredibly unsuited to skills, and face duty is best left to the gibbering mouther. It can, you know, actually talk.

Also, going by the given weight, it's about twice as dense as a bear. Go figure. +1 LA is okay, if you consider that you can get templated/buffed to some workable intelligence.



As an aside, Inevitability: Did you officially establish that INT --, 1, or 2 creatures are assumed to be able to take class levels, for the purpose of LA assignment? I just saw a rule in Savage Species, explicitly stating that creatures with intelligence scores below 3 cannot have levels in any class, which would kind of hurt the spider eater, for one. I wouldn't want to advance as magical beast, no matter the freedoms of movement I might get.

[Inevitability]

As an aside, Inevitability: Did you officially establish that INT --, 1, or 2 creatures are assumed to be able to take class levels, for the purpose of LA assignment? I just saw a rule in Savage Species, explicitly stating that creatures with intelligence scores below 3 cannot have levels in any class, which would kind of hurt the spider eater, for one. I wouldn't want to advance as magical beast, no matter the freedoms of movement I might get.

Firstly, as a magical beast (rather than an animal) there's no rule restricting its intelligence to 1 or 2, so a player could assign an 11 there and satisfy PC requirements.

Also, I do assume that mindless or unintelligent beings somehow get sufficient intelligence.

[Celestia]

I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.

[JBarca]

"This creature is basically a bear-sized wasp monster that can paralyze its prey for weeks, lays eggs inside of them, and is supernaturally resistant to all movement-impeding effects."
"What are you going to name it after?"
"Probably its diet. It eats spiders: how crazy is that?"


It's a crime that this won't be seen by any more than the few hundred (? ish? Maybe?) people who check out this thread.

That said, I think +1 is completely fine. Flight + FoM is worth forcing 5th level, since everything else can be summed up as "can hit things moderately well."

[ZamielVanWeber]

I also agree with +1. This is a bleh package for ECL 5, but honestly getting some of those super needed abilities will be awesome later on.

[Random Sanity]

I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.

Or they just got back from a trip to Australia.

[Flickerdart]

I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.

A lot of the 1st Edition monsters were just plastic dollar store "dinosaurs" with a random name and ability attached.

[Celestia]

Or they just got back from a trip to Australia.
Australia has beholders? Oh ****! :smalleek:

[danielxcutter]

Australia has beholders? Oh ****! :smalleek:

Oh believe me, from what I've heard, beholders probably last long there before dying out. :smalltongue:

[Malimar]

I knew Spider Eaters were a thing, but I could have sworn they were from one of the later MMs, or possibly Fiend Folio. Flabbergasted that they're in MM1. What other secrets is this book hiding from me? :smallyuk:

[Celestia]

I knew Spider Eaters were a thing, but I could have sworn they were from one of the later MMs, or possibly Fiend Folio. Flabbergasted that they're in MM1. What other secrets is this book hiding from me? :smallyuk:
Probably the secret to immortality. But it comes with 24 racial hit dice.

[InvisibleBison]

Probably the secret to immortality. But it comes with 24 racial hit dice.

Yeah, and LA: +21 (cohort).

[ViperMagnum357]

Pffft, the secret to immortality is in Dungeon Magazine. No, really-one of the treasures at the bottom of Castle Maur was an artifact elixir that rendered the drinker immortal, at least age-wise. you still took physical ability score penalties every century until you hit 1, though, so it was kind of meh.

[Nifft]

It's a crime that this won't be seen by any more than the few hundred (? ish? Maybe?) people who check out this thread.

That said, I think +1 is completely fine. Flight + FoM is worth forcing 5th level, since everything else can be summed up as "can hit things moderately well."
Pros:
+10 Str
+10 Con
+2 Dex
+2 Wis
Full BAB (all 4 HD)

That's more than just hitting moderately well. That's a +5 bonus over what you could expect any similarly-priced statted Str-based character to obtain.

That bonus means less over time, as Wild Shape and poly any object come into play, but that's when the freedom of movement starts to shine.

All-day flight is available to Warlocks at level 6. That's where I think this guy should sit.


Here's a sample build:

Spider Eater 4 / Barbarian 3 (pounce totem) / Fist of the Forest 3 / Bear Warrior 10

Barbarian 3: Lion Spirit Totem (for Pounce); Trapslayer ACF (to find traps with Survival and kill them with BAB).
Fist of the Forest: nice Unarmed Strike damage (take Beast Strike to add claw damage to unarmed strikes); add Con to AC (and you have +10 Con).
Bear Warrior: add another large bonus to your already absurd Strength, and get more attacks.

Bumping the Spider Eater to LA +2 would allow this exact build, but with 2 fewer levels of Barbarian (removing Uncanny Dodge and Trapslayer). Still quite competitive, but not totally overshadowing the basic Barb 4 / FotF 3 / Bear Warrior 10 / whatever 3.


A Meldshaper or Martial Initiator could be even more powerful.

[javcs]

On the one hand, yeah, on the other ... it doesn't really have proper hands, going by the picture and/or description, it seems most/all manipulation would be done with its mouth.
Oh, sure, mouthpick weapons are a thing ... but lacking hands or a suitable equivalent capability is a significant downside, and one that I think hasn't always been fully considered.


Edit: That is to say, I think LA +1 is fine.

[JBarca]

Pros:
+10 Str
+10 Con
+2 Dex
+2 Wis
Full BAB (all 4 HD)

That's more than just hitting moderately well. That's a +5 bonus over what you could expect any similarly-priced statted Str-based character to obtain.

That bonus means less over time, as Wild Shape and poly any object come into play, but that's when the freedom of movement starts to shine.

All-day flight is available to Warlocks at level 6. That's where I think this guy should sit.


The lack of a weapon means damage balances out fairly well. A Medium Barbarian with a Masterwork weapon has narrowed that attack bonus gap to a mere 1 while raging.

Sure, a Warlock is flying at 6th. The Warlock could also instead be doing any combination of being the face (Beguiling Influence, Charm), being the Rogue (Baleful Utterance), creating some BFC (Earthen Grasp, Miasmic Cloud, Breath of the Night), having maneuverability (Spiderwalk, Fell Flight, Swimming the Styx), having great senses (See the Unseen, All-Seeing eyes), etc. The Warlock is a completely different class of character than the Spider Eater. Comparing the two does not do the Spider Eater any favors.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Firstly, as a magical beast (rather than an animal) there's no rule restricting its intelligence to 1 or 2, so a player could assign an 11 there and satisfy PC requirements.

Also, I do assume that mindless or unintelligent beings somehow get sufficient intelligence.
Good point, that. You'd even learn a language. It does mean you can't reasonably dump intelligence, but that's a minor drawback. Alrighty, thanks.


On the spider eater: Serpent Kingdoms has the Barbed Stinger feat, which grants you Improved Grab with your stinger, dealing automatic sting damage (including poison) each round you maintain hold. So if you can manage a ten-round hold, your opponent will have a chance to be paralyzed each round, at no additional action cost!

...Okay, that's not the real benefit. I was thinking, a Barbed Stinger with venomfire might be a decent start for a grappling build. Combine with druidic avenger, cleric, or Totem Rager (no native venomfire casting), and it'll definitely leave an impression on the rest of the table.

[Thurbane]

Pros:
+10 Str
+10 Con
+2 Dex
+2 Wis
Full BAB (all 4 HD)

That's more than just hitting moderately well. That's a +5 bonus over what you could expect any similarly-priced statted Str-based character to obtain.

That bonus means less over time, as Wild Shape and poly any object come into play, but that's when the freedom of movement starts to shine.

All-day flight is available to Warlocks at level 6. That's where I think this guy should sit.


Here's a sample build:

Spider Eater 4 / Barbarian 3 (pounce totem) / Fist of the Forest 3 / Bear Warrior 10

Barbarian 3: Lion Spirit Totem (for Pounce); Trapslayer ACF (to find traps with Survival and kill them with BAB).
Fist of the Forest: nice Unarmed Strike damage (take Beast Strike to add claw damage to unarmed strikes); add Con to AC (and you have +10 Con).
Bear Warrior: add another large bonus to your already absurd Strength, and get more attacks.

Bumping the Spider Eater to LA +2 would allow this exact build, but with 2 fewer levels of Barbarian (removing Uncanny Dodge and Trapslayer). Still quite competitive, but not totally overshadowing the basic Barb 4 / FotF 3 / Bear Warrior 10 / whatever 3.


A Meldshaper or Martial Initiator could be even more powerful.
I agree with most of this analysis, but I feel it neglects the huge hit to Int and lack of manipulative appendages.

Skills matter. Unless you put an 18 into starting Int, you're likely to be only getting 1 skill point/level.

I'm on the border between LA +2 and LA +1, but I think I'll vote LA +1.

[Nifft]

I agree with most of this analysis, but I feel it neglects the huge hit to Int and lack of manipulative appendages.

Skills matter. Unless you put an 18 into starting Int, you're likely to be only getting 1 skill point/level. You're right that skills matter, but it's not true that paying for 18 Int is required.

Pay for 14 base Int (paying 6 points), and you'll have -2 skill points per level. That turns Swordsage into 4 skills maxed; Scout into 6 skills maxed; Barbarian into 2 skills maxed.

If you only got 2 skills, those two skills would probably be Spot and Listen, since you get a +4 racial bonus on those, and +2 Wisdom.

You'd be a bit one-dimensional, but you'd handily outperform other PCs within that area -- and that's what LA is supposed to correct.

Consider a 32-point-buy. Pick race Spider Eater and stats like...
Str 14 + 10 => 24
Dex 14 +2 => 16
Con 14 +10 => 24
Int 14 -8 => 6
Wis 14 +2 => 16
Cha 10

[Thurbane]

You're right that skills matter, but it's not true that paying for 18 Int is required.

Pay for 14 base Int (paying 6 points), and you'll have -2 skill points per level. That turns Swordsage into 4 skills maxed; Scout into 6 skills maxed; Barbarian into 2 skills maxed.

If you only got 2 skills, those two skills would probably be Spot and Listen, since you get a +4 racial bonus on those, and +2 Wisdom.

You'd be a bit one-dimensional, but you'd handily outperform other PCs within that area -- and that's what LA is supposed to correct.

Consider a 32-point-buy. Pick race Spider Eater and stats like...
Str 14 + 10 => 24
Dex 14 +2 => 16
Con 14 +10 => 24
Int 14 -8 => 6
Wis 14 +2 => 16
Cha 10


True, and good points.

Maybe you could come up with some weird back-story and have Nymph's Kiss as one of your starting feats...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Honestly a magical beast being friends with a fey seems less odd than, say, a neraph.

[Caelestion]

There's also the Open-Minded feat in XPH (I think).

[Thurbane]

Honestly a magical beast being friends with a fey seems less odd than, say, a neraph.

I keep forgetting that these guys are Magical Beasts, not Aberrations...


There's also the Open-Minded feat in XPH (I think).

Yep, Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded) is a general feat found in XPH, as well as CAd.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You'd be a bit one-dimensional, but you'd handily outperform other PCs within that area -- and that's what LA is supposed to correct.
LA is not supposed to be that strict. It's completely fair to be a few points better at Spot/Listen than a human with max ranks and 14 wisdom, if you give up in other departments (which spider eaters do, and massively). For one, humans will always be 4 points ahead on Knowledge skills, plus that they can actually afford ranks.

Giving up skill ranks and appendages means you can't cast spells without Eschew Materials and Surrogate Spellcasting, you can't enter a lot of PrCs (seriously, every other PrC requires 8 ranks in some skill), you can't communicate with the party without a pearl of speech (not expensive, but it's a body slot), your armour is at 2x cost, your weapons need an extra +1 bonus to be mouthpick'd, and you probably can't use Craft, Disable Device, Forgery, Heal, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device, or Use Rope, because of the delicate manipulation required.

Spider eaters have a full attack at 2d8+12 (base 16 STR), which is about the same as an orc barbarian's single hit at ECL 5 (2d6+14, 2-point PA, rage, same base 16 STR). That's at the same to-hit: orcs get +1 bab, a masterwork greatsword, and no size penalty. I'm not even counting that the spider eater's bite is at -5, or that it can't actually fly and full attack (it'd fall).


Edit: Just realized that spider eaters only have two class skills: Spot and Listen. Annoying.

[No brains]

When this thread finished the MM, we should celebrate by trying to think up good characters (not just builds) for each of these monsters.

"Bzzzz... I was considered a little slow in the warblade dojo, but what they should have known was that I was learning more carefully. Bzzzz... I will always appreciate the compassion that the master showed for me, he made me truly feel 'human'. Bzzzz... I'm really hungry for a spider right about now."

[Random Sanity]

Australia has beholders? Oh ****! :smalleek:

Just think, in Australia having spider eaters around raises your property value. Because they keep the spiders in check.

[Thurbane]

Just think, in Australia having spider eaters around raises your property value. Because they keep the spiders in check.

I live in Australia and my wife has the most intense arachnophobia of anyone I've ever met. Fun times. :smalleek:

...at least we're at the Southern end of the country, the spiders are generally worse up North.

[Waker]

I live in Australia and my ife has the most intense arachnophobia of anyone I've ever met. Fun times. :smalleek:

...at least we're at the Southern end of the country, the spiders are generally worse up North.

I prefer to interpret this as wildlife claiming territory like gangs. "Up north the Spyders are the big threat."

[Inevitability]

When this thread finished the MM, we should celebrate by trying to think up good characters (not just builds) for each of these monsters.

"Bzzzz... I was considered a little slow in the warblade dojo, but what they should have known was that I was learning more carefully. Bzzzz... I will always appreciate the compassion that the master showed for me, he made me truly feel 'human'. Bzzzz... I'm really hungry for a spider right about now."

I'm actually considering starting a hop-on-hop-off game of short dungeon crawls to let people play monstrous characters once this book's finished.

[Mike Miller]

I'm actually considering starting a hop-on-hop-off game of short dungeon crawls to let people play monstrous characters once this book's finished.

Sounds good to me. Of course, that is still a ways off if you plan on doing all the other MMs and such.

[lord_khaine]

I live in Australia and my wife has the most intense arachnophobia of anyone I've ever met. Fun times.

I kinda feel the death world known as Australia is one of the few places where its really justified? I mean, suposedly you got some really nasty buggers over there, ones that can kill a man.

Where i live spiders dont grow much larger than a centimeter or two (discounting legs), but some girls are still scared of them. Go figure :smallconfused:

[Inevitability]

Sprite

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zeHiyhNOL._SY445_.jpg

Thispostpaidforbythecocacolacompany.


Grig

The smallest, weakest, and most bug-like of all MM sprites. Only half a fey RHD, which I assume can and shall be replaced by a class level (guys, please don't start a 10-page discussion on whether this is RAW here).

The chassis is neat, with bonuses to wisdom, charisma, dexterity, and even constitution, and no penalties except to strength. SR 17 is a lot at low levels, and DR 5/cold iron isn't shabby either. A fly speed is always welcome and makes the low land speed not hurt so much. Dodge and Weapon Finesse for free are icing, though I should note that without a source of bonus damage the second isn't going to be doing much for you.

But wait, there's more! Grigs also get a ton of SLAs. Some aren't that useful (Disguise Self?), and some quite situational (Pyrotechnics, Ventriloquism) but others are awesome (Entangle, Invisibility). In addition, grigs can have fiddles that project 30 ft. zones of save-or-lose, and although it's non-friendly being tiny and flying helps a lot with targeting.

I'm conflicted here: both +2 and +3 are appealing LAs. In the end, I think I will go with +3, if only because their fiddles are awesome (grigs without are probably worth +2). Either way, they can still get a lot of sneak attack damage or high spell levels, which I'm fine with.



Nixie

A full hit die this time, and a size increase to small. Nixies can swim and breathe both air and water, but are incapable of flight. Their ability scores are okay, with especially high charisma. They, too, get dodge and weapon finesse as bonus feats, have SR, and have damage reduction.

Rather than the wide array of SLAs a grig gets, nixies must make do with an extended-duration Charm Person 3/day (CL 4) and Water Breathing 1/day (CL 12). They also have the empowered wild empathy most fey seem to get.

+1 or +2? I'd really like some input here, but for now I'll play it safe and go with +2.



Pixie

Strongest of the MM sprites, and also most popular. A good fly speed, sweet ability scores, high DR, scaling SR, and the default sprite bonus feats make for a very appealing package, especially when combined with the phletora of useful SLAs and the nonmagical save-or-lose effects they get. Oh, and permanent Greater Invisibility.

Even so, I think +3 works here (come at me, vigorous debate!), with +4 or +5 (let's go with +4, just for more debate) for the variant that gets Irresistible Dance.

[lord_khaine]

I think the LA values are rather reasonable for once, though i am a little uncertain about the Pixie. Just 3 or 4 levels does feel slightly undercosted for how much the Pixie gets. Even if it leaves it a little fragile.

And its in particular the variant with Irresistable dance that seems a little concerning. Thats a level 8 no-save and lose spell. That sort of things is something you more or less need to build your campaign world around. Else most challenging encounters are going to waste their time skipping around like a fool as the pary murders them.

[danielxcutter]

Irresistible Dance is really powerful until you run into mind immunity, and Pixies are already so good people occasionally suck up the +4 LA to play Swordsages or Warlocks. Though the Str penalty and the hit die loss from LA really hit you hard, especially at low-mid levels. Breath weapons ignore SR, after all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think those LAs are fine, pixies looking strong. I still wouldn't like playing them, but that's because I hate pixies. Stupid fluttering vermin.

Irresistible dance is really nice, lethal if it connects. But I feel that it's balanced at LA +4, beause at higher levels, it probably won't connect, being a CL 8 SR:Yes mind-affecting compulsion SLA, and at lower levels, the lost HD make you extremely fragile. Polymorph, likewise, is stuck with the HD and CL limit: an ECL 4/5 pixie can only take 1 HD forms, and an ECL 15 pixie can only take 8 HD forms (the sweet spot is at ECL 11/12, where 8 HD = CL 8).

Essentially, anyone playing a pixie at ECL 4/5-10 plays rocket ultratag, with a powerful save-or-lose and (less than) half the hp of a regular character (especially painful if you decide to go wiz/sorc). Anyone playing a pixie at higher levels probably won't benefit as much from irresistible dance or dispel magic at CL 8, though polymorph of course never entirely goes out of fashion (but we shouldn't blame the pixie for that).

[khadgar567]

Ah f it -0 la for tinker bell( pixie)

[TotallyNotEvil]

I agree that Pixies should be +4.

Otherwise, I agree with the upper bounds of LA you decided for the other two (+3 and +2).

[Remuko]

Sprite

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zeHiyhNOL._SY445_.jpg

Thispostpaidforbythecocacolacompany.


Grig

The smallest, weakest, and most bug-like of all MM sprites. Only half a fey RHD, which I assume can and shall be replaced by a class level (guys, please don't start a 10-page discussion on whether this is RAW here).

The chassis is neat, with bonuses to wisdom, charisma, dexterity, and even constitution, and no penalties except to strength. SR 17 is a lot at low levels, and DR 5/cold iron isn't shabby either. A fly speed is always welcome and makes the low land speed not hurt so much. Dodge and Weapon Finesse for free are icing, though I should note that without a source of bonus damage the second isn't going to be doing much for you.

But wait, there's more! Grigs also get a ton of SLAs. Some aren't that useful (Disguise Self?), and some quite situational (Pyrotechnics, Ventriloquism) but others are awesome (Entangle, Invisibility). In addition, grigs can have fiddles that project 30 ft. zones of save-or-lose, and although it's non-friendly being tiny and flying helps a lot with targeting.

I'm conflicted here: both +2 and +3 are appealing LAs. In the end, I think I will go with +3, if only because their fiddles are awesome (grigs without are probably worth +2). Either way, they can still get a lot of sneak attack damage or high spell levels, which I'm fine with.



Nixie

A full hit die this time, and a size increase to small. Nixies can swim and breathe both air and water, but are incapable of flight. Their ability scores are okay, with especially high charisma. They, too, get dodge and weapon finesse as bonus feats, have SR, and have damage reduction.

Rather than the wide array of SLAs a grig gets, nixies must make do with an extended-duration Charm Person 3/day (CL 4) and Water Breathing 1/day (CL 12). They also have the empowered wild empathy most fey seem to get.

+1 or +2? I'd really like some input here, but for now I'll play it safe and go with +2.



Pixie

Strongest of the MM sprites, and also most popular. A good fly speed, sweet ability scores, high DR, scaling SR, and the default sprite bonus feats make for a very appealing package, especially when combined with the phletora of useful SLAs and the nonmagical save-or-lose effects they get. Oh, and permanent Greater Invisibility.

Even so, I think +3 works here (come at me, vigorous debate!), with +4 or +5 (let's go with +4, just for more debate) for the variant that gets Irresistible Dance.

I think I agree with all of these again. I've read other opinions and they havent swayed me. I still stand by your initial ratings here.

[Celestia]

I agree with those ratings.

[Nifft]

Grig
Str -6, Dex +8, Con +2, Int ±0, Wis +2, Cha +4 ==> net +10

Tiny size: great.
Fly 40 (poor): nice bot not great.
Bonus Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse. Dodge is a popular pre-req; even if you never remember to use it in combat, getting it for free is good.

SLAs: 3/day some 1st and 2nd level spells. Does not scale. Nothing at-will.

Fiddle (Su): One grig in each band carries a tiny, grig-sized fiddle. When the fiddler plays, any nonsprite within 30 feet of the instrument must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be affected as though by irresistible dance for as long as the playing continues. The save DC is Charisma-based.

... so if you're not "in a band", do you get a Fiddle (Su)? Arguably not. Let's evaluate the grig who is in a party, and not in a band.

SQ: Damage reduction 5/cold iron, low-light vision, spell resistance 17

The DR is relevant at all levels. Does the SR scale? If it does, that's 17+HD, and that's great. If it does not, then it very swiftly becomes irrelevant.

I'd put not-in-a-band Grig at LA +2.



Nixie
Str -4, Dex +6, Con ±0, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +8 => net +14

Small size: okay.
Swim speed + water breathing: nice but not great.
Bonus Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse. Dodge is a popular pre-req; even if you never remember to use it in combat, getting it for free is good.

SLA: charm person for 24 hours, 3/day. Pretty good. At low levels you can charm a person or 3; at high levels you qualify for Mindbender and gain Mindsight.

SQ: Amphibious, damage reduction 5/cold iron, low-light vision, spell resistance 16, water breathing, wild empathy

The DR never gets old. SR 15 + HD would be solid; SR 16 without scaling is garbage. Wild Empathy is interesting in some games but worthless in others -- it really depends on your DM's monster pallette, usage of guard animals, and what sourcebooks you can use.

Assuming you're in a coastal or seaborne game where swimming & water breathing are relevant, and the SR scales, then Nixie LA +2 seems fair.



Pixie
-4 Str, +8 Dex, ±0 Con, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha => net +20.

Small size: okay.
Fly 60 ft. (good): quite good.
Bonus Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse. Dodge is a popular pre-req; even if you never remember to use it in combat, getting it for free is good.

SLA: 1/day—lesser confusion (DC 14), dancing lights, detect chaos, detect good, detect evil, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 15), dispel magic, entangle (DC 14), permanent image (DC 19; visual and auditory elements only). Caster level 8th.

Permanent image every day for free. That can add up. CL 8 before class levels. That blows through some PrC prerequisites. For example, you can enter Primal Scholar almost immediately. You can also take some CL-gated feats immediately.

If you can get more racial castings, then these 1/day abilities become better. If so, this is quite good.


SQ: Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, low-light vision, spell resistance 15 (which is explicitly 15 + class levels)

The DR never gets old. Greater invisibility at-will does eventually get old, but that can be mitigated in a number of ways (e.g.: Darkstalker, mind blank), and even when some things can detect you, there are other things that can't. Their invisibility is very strong. SR 15 + class levels is great.

I'm ignoring Special Arrows and Irresistible Dance, since I've seen several pixies played under different DMs, but none were ever allowed to have these two features. They were still good.

Summary:
+ Great stats (+20 overall)
+ Great DR & SR
+ Useful SLAs
+ Greater Invisibility
+ Fly 60 ft. (good)
+ Bonus feats

Pixie at LA +3 seems fair.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Once again, unlike what you appeared to assert, guardinals aren't transformed petitioners (i.e. the souls of mortals who enter their afterlives), as they're a true-breeding planar species, unlike archons, aasimon, baatezu and so on.
I've asserted no such thing. I've merely pointed out that the difference doesn't seem particularly important or relevant to my point. Especially since, AFAIK, it doesn't seem to have made it into the main rulebooks. I don't think it was even mentioned in the Book of Exalted Deeds!



"This creature is basically a bear-sized wasp monster that can paralyze its prey for weeks, lays eggs inside of them, and is supernaturally resistant to all movement-impeding effects."
"What are you going to name it after?"
"Probably its diet. It eats spiders: how crazy is that?"
Well, taking out the supernatural resistance to movement-impeding effects, you have a bear-sized version of the tarantula hawk wasp. (which does eat spiders, at least as a larva). The inspiration is as subtle as a raging barbarian.
No idea where freedom of movement came from, though...



I swear that the writers were on drugs when designing some of these monsters.
In that thread where I analyze negative level adjustments, I was going to make a joke about how derro—inspired by the writings of a legit crazy guy—were less crazy than he monsters I'd been analyzing previously. Of course, that's basically dead, so it's in the buffer dump.



I keep forgetting that these guys are Magical Beasts, not Aberrations...
Another joke I made was wondering why destruchans were aberrations and digesters magical beasts, when the former resembled a real animal with a supernatural ability tacked on while the latter was just weird (and wholly without supernatural stuff).



Some aren't that useful (Disguise Self?)
Hey, disguise self is useful. It's not great in combat, but it's awesome for infiltration. I mean, as long as you're the same general size and shape as the general...oh, right. Erm...does it require your fake appearance to have the same creature type as your real one?
checks PHB
Huh, it doesn't say. It doesn't even specify that you need to look like something of the same size category. It just says your final height needs to be within a foot of your original height, which for a typical grig means 6-30 inches tall. 30 inches would be comparable to a typical Small humanoid! Sadly, you need to keep your "body type," but the spell also specifically states that "Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you". Since it also disguises clothes, RAW would let you disguise yourself as a bug-person with an abdomen and legs shaped such a way that they can hide within robes which you are also disguised as wearing, with the head and hands of a halfling/gnome.
Unfortunately, at 10 minutes/level, CL 9, and three casts per day, that's only four and a half hours under disguise. Even if you extended all castings somehow, you would barely have enough time to cover a shift at the magic-factory and the commute there and back, so just pretending to be a halfling all the time isn't really possible. Still, it has its uses—especially if you convince your DM that a grig's "body type" is basically the same as a goliath beetle's...
e both air and water, but are incapable of flight. Their ability scores are okay, with especially high charisma. They, too, get dodge and weapon finesse as bonus feats, have SR, and have damage reduction.



Pixie
I remember playing one of these. I just kept adding quasi-random classes (I recall using bard casting to get into dragon disciple, then picking up arcane archer because why not)—horribly unbalanced, but the only way my DM/little brother knew to handle invisibility combined with plinking was to give all of my enemies robes of eyes (replaced with cloaks of eyes once I pointed out that they can't wear robes and armor simultaneously), which evaporated or something when I defeated them, meaning I couldn't actually sell them and buy more outrageous loot. It was a terrible campaign, but I have fond memories of it.
Erm...if your DM is my little brother from almost a decade ago, the MM's +4 might be a little low. But if he's not, then Inevitability's is probably closer.



One grig per band has a fiddle...
Alright, but what about the bass fiddler? Do they get any special abilities? What about the drummer, or the lead vocalist?