Factotum Trapmonkey Gish

[Ethernil]

I want to build a character that can trapmonkey and fight like a gish. Factotum seems to be able to do that out of the box. Rogue-Chameleon looks like a strong contender. With restricting options to wotcs books except dungeon/dragon magazine(maybe dragon compedium is ok), banning psionics, incarnum and iaijutsu focus(generally just faerun, maybe some greyhawk stuff would be accepted but no oriental adventures) give me some pointers. I have read various handbooks but they tend to consider everything available, including pathfinder which in our case isn't. Also if you can use some other class/es combination instead of factotum it will still be ok. For relevance i have played a swift hunter with a bunch of ranger acfs(not mystic ranger as it wasn't allowed) and enjoyed it, i won't something else this time. The group's optimization is mediocre, so even though there is a cleric and a wizard they aren't that well built. Something along the lines of T2-T4 would be fine. Also I have tried playing an artificer and i ended up doing more paperwork than the dm, i don't want that extreme bookkeeping.

[Korahir]

I want to build a character that can trapmonkey and fight like a gish. Factotum seems to be able to do that out of the box. Rogue-Chameleon looks like a strong contender. With restricting options to wotcs books except dungeon/dragon magazine(maybe dragon compedium is ok), banning psionics, incarnum and iaijutsu focus(generally just faerun, maybe some greyhawk stuff would be accepted but no oriental adventures) give me some pointers. I have read various handbooks but they tend to consider everything available, including pathfinder which in our case isn't. Also if you can use some other class/es combination instead of factotum it will still be ok. For relevance i have played a swift hunter with a bunch of ranger acfs(not mystic ranger as it wasn't allowed) and enjoyed it, i won't something else this time. The group's optimization is mediocre, so even though there is a cleric and a wizard they aren't that well built. Something along the lines of T2-T4 would be fine. Also I have tried playing an artificer and i ended up doing more paperwork than the dm, i don't want that extreme bookkeeping.

Chameleon can be very ostensive when it comes to "bookkeeping" but for what you want to play a Factotum/Chameleon seems the most obvious combination. Rogue/Cleric can be decent for what you want to do too. Curmudgeon is an expert on that, you'll probably find a few hints in threads he created. Here is a link to a post: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6972739&postcount=13

[Kaleph]

You may go straight factotum, but the damage output can be disappointing. A typical fix is using iajutsu focus, which is out of the table in this case; see if the sneak attack feature of the factotum isn't limited to 1d6 per attack. In addition, knowledge devotion + collector of stories + scroll of uncertain provenance is decent. If you go this way, you should concentrate on magic items to keep the damage high; also, try to get access to alter self multiple times per day.

Alternatively, a factotum or ACF ranger (dungeonscape) + able learner + any gish class with at least 4 SP per level works perfectly.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to suggest a different take

Rogue 5 / Wizard 1 / Trapsmith 5 / Swiftblade 9

You get level 1 haste, and end up as a partial caster (lots of 1-4th level spells.). The major thing is you end up with the tons of actions each round a swifblade is famous for. Be human and take able learner to maintain your skills. You won't have ALL the skills, but you can maintain 5-6 skills without too much trouble, enough to be a trap monkey.

[Gildedragon]

I am strongly in favor of factotum

It isn't a very "gish" class cause of the very limited spells per day, though. Remember you can't double up on spells.
Yeah, spells like Luminous Armor can last you all day long but if you're looking for more magical prowess Wizard or Cloistered Cleric into some Full BAB PRC will help ya.
A 1 dip into rogue/factotum nets you trapfinding
But possibly better: spend some GPs to make a set of Arcane Thieves' Tools (MIC) to move trapfinding there, and just build a solid Int Gish. Human + Nymph Kiss + High Int will work in your favor.

Bard (or prestige bard) would not be particularly bad. Bardic Knack would be quite a handy thing (do ask how it interacts with prestige bard: I, personally, would rule it to be either full bard level or 1/2 Bard Level + 3)

Wizard 2 (ban Evo or Conj and Necro) + Crusader / Warblade 3 + Prestige Bard X can be quite a versatile build

[Waker]

Gish with Trapfinding? Bard 1/Spellthief 1/Bard X, take the Master Spellthief feat and Bardic Knack. You can cast as a bard with a great skill list and have the option of stealing spells from other people to augment your talents. Unless your DM runs a ton of traps, the ranks for Disable Device and Search purchased from your level in Spellthief along with Bardic Knack should let you deal with traps. Not too mention that unlike a Rogue, your access to Dispel Magic and Shatter let you deal with a wider variety of traps.

[ATHATH]

Gish with Trapfinding? Bard 1/Spellthief 1/Bard X, take the Master Spellthief feat and Bardic Knack. You can cast as a bard with a great skill list and have the option of stealing spells from other people to augment your talents. Unless your DM runs a ton of traps, the ranks for Disable Device and Search purchased from your level in Spellthief along with Bardic Knack should let you deal with traps. Not too mention that unlike a Rogue, your access to Dispel Magic and Shatter let you deal with a wider variety of traps.
A single level in Spellthief will only let you steal 1st level spells, though, even with the Master Spellthief feat.

Why does your DM ban Psionics?

[Fouredged Sword]

A single level in Spellthief will only let you steal 1st level spells, though, even with the Master Spellthief feat.

Why does your DM ban Psionics?

Not quite. You can only HOLD one spell level. You can steal, and thus deny, spells of higher level. They are just immediately lost. It is still very useful in that it qualifies you for craven and there are items that grant +1d6 sneak attack damage so you have enough to do 1d6+20 AND deny a caster one of their highest spell slots each hit.

Again, useful with a full round volley spell cast from hiding.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Factotum is generally overrated in terms of how much they can contribute in a fight. And Factotum/Chameleon is downright terrible-- Chameleon really needs some consistent muscle from its entry, because it takes a while before you can really lean on the spellcasting, and if there's one thing the Factotum doesn't offer it's muscle. Rogue/Chameleon is much stronger, especially with Craven.

[Fouredged Sword]

Factotum is generally overrated in terms of how much they can contribute in a fight. And Factotum/Chameleon is downright terrible-- Chameleon really needs some consistent muscle from its entry, because it takes a while before you can really lean on the spellcasting, and if there's one thing the Factotum doesn't offer it's muscle. Rogue/Chameleon is much stronger, especially with Craven.

I like Rogue 1 / Spellthief 1 / duskblade 3 / Rogue 1 / Chameleon 10 for my chameleon entry. Master spellthief gives chameleon casting in light armor. Duskblade 3 gives a solid hit that can use chameleon casting and plenty of damage to survive though level 7 when paired with the pair of rogue and spellthief sneak attack die. Evasion also helps survival and preserving your HP.

[Korahir]

Factotum is generally overrated in terms of how much they can contribute in a fight. And Factotum/Chameleon is downright terrible-- Chameleon really needs some consistent muscle from its entry, because it takes a while before you can really lean on the spellcasting, and if there's one thing the Factotum doesn't offer it's muscle. Rogue/Chameleon is much stronger, especially with Craven.

Seems we have extremely different perception on what Factotums can do in a fight. Why is proficiency with all martial weapons and a medium BAB to little to contribute? I am not even taking other class features into consideration but downright medium BAB and martial weapon proficiency is enough to contribute to a fight in a pretty decent way. I am also a little baffled why Chameleon takes a while to come online? At ECL 6 Chameleon has acces to: Haste (level 1), Dimension Door (level 2), Gaseous Form (level 2), Knock (level 1), Dispel Magic (level 1), Stone Shape(level 2) and this is just the Trapsmith list. What "consistent muscle" does chameleon need?

[Fouredged Sword]

A chameleon lacks enough spell slots to use his or her spells all that frequently. The fighter is doing significantly better damage in melee and the wizard is a far better caster. By level 6 you are dealing with things with enough HP that swinging your sword no longer cuts the mustard without high strength and power attack enough to stack on the damage. You will be doing 5-10 damage when you need to be doing 10-30.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems we have extremely different perception on what Factotums can do in a fight. Why is proficiency with all martial weapons and a medium BAB to little to contribute? I am not even taking other class features into consideration but downright medium BAB and martial weapon proficiency is enough to contribute to a fight in a pretty decent way. I am also a little baffled why Chameleon takes a while to come online? At ECL 6 Chameleon has acces to: Haste (level 1), Dimension Door (level 2), Gaseous Form (level 2), Knock (level 1), Dispel Magic (level 1), Stone Shape(level 2) and this is just the Trapsmith list. What "consistent muscle" does chameleon need?
Umm, if your combat skill is less than a Warrior's, you're not in a great place. You don't have the BAB to exploit Power Attack, you don't have the bonus damage to make something like TWF or archery significant, you don't have the feats to get far into any combat style (especially if you're taking a bunch of Fonts of Inspiration as is usually assumed, grabbing Knowledge Devotion, etc), Iajutsu Focus is kind of a pain to use reliably... Oh, and you've got issues with being MAD, because you need a high mental stat and all good physical stats.

Chameleons have good spells from the get-go, but not that many spells. You can do some self-buffing with things like Haste and Alter Self, but a half-dozen odd spells isn't going to last you a full day, especially if you're trying to start a buff routine from a chassis as weak as Factotum 5. Fouredged Sword's build is much snazzier (possibly my second favorite, actually, after Rogue/Totemist/Incarnate-- Duskblade channeling is powerful and useful throughout your career, and 2d6 Sneak Attack + Craven will be useful for a long time)

[Korahir]

A chameleon lacks enough spell slots to use his or her spells all that frequently. The fighter is doing significantly better damage in melee and the wizard is a far better caster. By level 6 you are dealing with things with enough HP that swinging your sword no longer cuts the mustard without high strength and power attack enough to stack on the damage. You will be doing 5-10 damage when you need to be doing 10-30.

Isn't this thread about being a trapfinding skillmonkey with a slight gish flavor to it? So why is doing 5-10 damage a swing and ridding the wizard of casting haste all while covering the whole work up of the fight (scouting ahead, trap finding, possibly knowledge check to find the enemies weakness) bad? I was under the impression that the OP isn't looking for advice on how to build the premier melee fighter nor the God Wizard but a support character. I may be mistaken and I am reading the gish as less important as others. I completely agree on the part that a factotum is not as good as a craven rogue+x build in melee but I'd pick Factotum over Rogue any day if it is about being more the support skillmonkey.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I completely agree on the part that a factotum is not as good as a craven rogue+x build in melee but I'd pick Factotum over Rogue any day if it is about being more the support skillmonkey.
Because the OP seemed to be emphasizing combat ("fight like a gish") over support skills ("can trapmonkey")? Perhaps more than that, I think most people prefer being good at killing things, rather than being a marginally-useful bystander during the longest, most obligatory part of the game (combat). Unless otherwise specified, I'll tailor my advice towards that.

[Fouredged Sword]

Isn't this thread about being a trapfinding skillmonkey with a slight gish flavor to it? So why is doing 5-10 damage a swing and ridding the wizard of casting haste all while covering the whole work up of the fight (scouting ahead, trap finding, possibly knowledge check to find the enemies weakness) bad? I was under the impression that the OP isn't looking for advice on how to build the premier melee fighter nor the God Wizard but a support character. I may be mistaken.

Yeah, but even though you HAVE haste, it sucks. You have a caster level of 2. It lasts 2 rounds and for 2 people. Alter self? You are restricted to 2 HD forms, so not a lot of options. Without a caster level you don't even qualify for Practical spellcaster.

You can MAKE a factotum 5 / Chameleon 10 work, it just isn't that GOOD. You can be a trap finder with Rogue 1 / Spellthief 1 / Duskblade 3 / Chameleon 10 (dipping that 2nd rogue level for evasion optional). You have to take able learner anyway and will want a decent int score, so you HAVE skillpoints and trapfinding. Chameleon will eventually serve up the spellcasting side of the gish just fine. That means your first 5 levels need to solidify the melee part of the build without overly cutting into the trapfinder segment. You start off with CL 5 (or 6 depending on the master spellthief reading) chameleon casting, enough to be actually useful. You have a decent number of kelgore's firebolts and shocking grasps to channel from duskblade casting for when something needs to die. Craven ensures you can hit hard from flanking or after you apply grease.

Factotum just gives +int as a bunch of flat bonuses and some minor magical abilities that are going to be overshadowed by your chameleon casting quickly without adding much to the overall picture.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe try playing a wyrmling steel dragon/rogue 1/unseen seer X? It's not very optimal (four lost levels of casting, though Loredrake and Spellhoarding can help), but it's pretty cool to be a sneaky divination dragon. Steel dragon are from Dragons of Faerûn, but there's nothing that makes them unsuitable to any specific campaign.

[Korahir]

Cutting it short: you are right about the Rogue Spellthief Duskblade entry into chameleon. It is simply better than Factotum. I just disagree on the part that Factotum/Chameleon sucks.

[ATHATH]

If you're just dipping Spellthief, be sure to take the Trickster variant (ACF? I don't remember which one it was).

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're just dipping Spellthief, be sure to take the Trickster variant (ACF? I don't remember which one it was).
It's crazy good (trades sneak attack progression, trapfinding and trap skills, and 2 skill points/level for a Bard's spell progression), but it's also Dragon material.

[Waker]

If you're just dipping Spellthief, be sure to take the Trickster variant (ACF? I don't remember which one it was).


It's crazy good (trades sneak attack progression, trapfinding and trap skills, and 2 skill points/level for a Bard's spell progression), but it's also Dragon material.

The Trickster variant is from Dragon 353. It is really good, but I didn't mention it since the OP wanted trapfinding and dragon material being off the board.

[prototype00]

Yeah, but even though you HAVE haste, it sucks. You have a caster level of 2. It lasts 2 rounds and for 2 people. Alter self? You are restricted to 2 HD forms, so not a lot of options. Without a caster level you don't even qualify for Practical spellcaster.

You can MAKE a factotum 5 / Chameleon 10 work, it just isn't that GOOD. You can be a trap finder with Rogue 1 / Spellthief 1 / Duskblade 3 / Chameleon 10 (dipping that 2nd rogue level for evasion optional). You have to take able learner anyway and will want a decent int score, so you HAVE skillpoints and trapfinding. Chameleon will eventually serve up the spellcasting side of the gish just fine. That means your first 5 levels need to solidify the melee part of the build without overly cutting into the trapfinder segment. You start off with CL 5 (or 6 depending on the master spellthief reading) chameleon casting, enough to be actually useful. You have a decent number of kelgore's firebolts and shocking grasps to channel from duskblade casting for when something needs to die. Craven ensures you can hit hard from flanking or after you apply grease.

Factotum just gives +int as a bunch of flat bonuses and some minor magical abilities that are going to be overshadowed by your chameleon casting quickly without adding much to the overall picture.

I am fond of the ability of the Factotum to boost the damage of poison/ability damage type attacks, so Ray of Stupidity instead of doing 1d4+1 does 1d4+6 points of intelligence damage per cast. On average, enough to cripple most stupid monsters and might even take away Wizard spellcasting if they aren't absolutely maxed.

prototype00

[ATHATH]

It's crazy good (trades sneak attack progression, trapfinding and trap skills, and 2 skill points/level for a Bard's spell progression), but it's also Dragon material.
It's worth mentioning that a Trickster Spellthief still gets 1d6 of SA at first level, making it excellent dip material.

[Ethernil]

Psionics are out because they dm thinks they are op, even though he uses psionic npcs sometimes. He would probably let me play psychic warrior if we had a talk.

Online sources, even official will have to be checked by the dm before being allowed, so not sure about swiftblade.

Factotum feels weak till level 10, when he has a reliable amount of spells for buffs and a couple of save or dies if needed, later cunning breach makes those stronger. Chameleon is also relatively weak till level 5. I don't want to spend the first 8 or 9 levels as the other group members' henchman.

Some houserules of note: casters don't need components or pouches, clerics just need to have holy symbol on their person not needing to hold it and once a class skill always a class skill, so with a small dip in rogue or something followed by classes with enough skill points there won't be an issue(able learner is useless).

Now as for the build, i m not deadset on arcane or divine gish, i want a character without much dependancy on gear as our dm likes gritty "low magic" games, we can only buy mediocre +1 to +3 items in large cities with maybe an extra ability like flaming, the rest is dependant on loot rolls. This doesn't prevent many of our enemies from being dragons, illithids, beholders, undead etc. I know unseen sheer is uber and all but there is already a dedicated wizard and i don't want to overlap. Maybe a build using binder or initiator classes would work. Rogue1-binder16-uncancy trickster3 perhaps?(not in that specific order).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Binder is also kinda slow to get rolling; you have some issues before you get your second bound vestige.

I'd suggest something like [class with trapfinding] 1/Swordsage 19, perhaps? You'll be great at sneaking, have plenty of skills to work with, and have combat muscle without depending too much on gear.

[ATHATH]

Psionics are out because they dm thinks they are op, even though he uses psionic npcs sometimes. He would probably let me play psychic warrior if we had a talk.
Show this to him: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444945-Myth-The-XPH-is-overpowered

[Gildedragon]

Psionics are out because they dm thinks they are op, even though he uses psionic npcs sometimes. He would probably let me play psychic warrior if we had a talk.

Online sources, even official will have to be checked by the dm before being allowed, so not sure about swiftblade.

Factotum feels weak till level 10, when he has a reliable amount of spells for buffs and a couple of save or dies if needed, later cunning breach makes those stronger. Chameleon is also relatively weak till level 5. I don't want to spend the first 8 or 9 levels as the other group members' henchman.

Some houserules of note: casters don't need components or pouches, clerics just need to have holy symbol on their person not needing to hold it and once a class skill always a class skill, so with a small dip in rogue or something followed by classes with enough skill points there won't be an issue(able learner is useless).

Now as for the build, i m not deadset on arcane or divine gish, i want a character without much dependancy on gear as our dm likes gritty "low magic" games, we can only buy mediocre +1 to +3 items in large cities with maybe an extra ability like flaming, the rest is dependant on loot rolls. This doesn't prevent many of our enemies from being dragons, illithids, beholders, undead etc. I know unseen sheer is uber and all but there is already a dedicated wizard and i don't want to overlap. Maybe a build using binder or initiator classes would work. Rogue1-binder16-uncancy trickster3 perhaps?(not in that specific order).

Incarnum might work nicely for you then (with the low wealth focus)
But since it is banned...

I'd say go fullish caster. Cleric gish can be pretty gear independent. Dip monk 1 for armor.

[Demidos]

As someone above suggested,

Rogue 1/Swordsage 19

Alternately, something like

Rogue 1 or 2/Dragonfire Inspiration Bard 18-19 is a pretty serious gish (you get a big boost to damage and hit on par with a fighter of a similar level). Adding something like Snowflake Wardance adds quite a bit of power.

A crazy side suggestion, if you could get it approved, would be

Rogue 1/Paladin of Freedom 19 with Smite to Song to get Dragonfire inspiration, and toss on battle blessing. You fight well, can heal, are tough to kill, and have some really nice quickened spells. The concept becomes much stronger if you can convince your dm to let you play a pathfinder paladin.

[Ethernil]

Would a rogue 2, bard 7, druid 1, fochlucan lyrist 10 work? Or would it be total crap till level 10 netting the same outcome as factotum chameleon?

[Ethernil]

How would you build a chameleon archer?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would a rogue 2, bard 7, druid 1, fochlucan lyrist 10 work? Or would it be total crap till level 10 netting the same outcome as factotum chameleon?
I suppose, yeah. I mean, leaning towards bard is suboptimal from a casting point of view, and normally I wouldn't recommend Fochlucan Lyrist without incarnum (to get Evasion), but if you want trapfinding and skill points, and you're shooting for a high tier 3, it'll do just fine. You might want to trade that animal companion for something else, with only one level of advancement on it.

You'd basically be a bard with slightly weak casting/music until level 16 or so, because your druid casting takes a good while to catch up. At 16th level, you would get 4th-level druid spells, one behind your fifth-level bard spells. At 20th level, you would have 6th-level druid and bard spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How would you build a chameleon archer?
Hmm. I know you said psionics are banned, but Soulknifes aren't manifesters... could you swing a Zen Archery Soulbow entry? Something like Silverbrow Human Rogue 1/Soulknife 2/Anything 2*/Soulknife 1-2/Chameleon 10 works would be solid. You get plenty of skills, Wisdom for attack, damage, and Chameleon spellcasting, infinite arrows that can be used with Rapid Shot and Two-Weapon Fighting...

If not, Bard or Harmonious Knight Paladin with Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration optimization would be solid. A mix of Rogue (with Craven), Duskblade (for Knowledge Devotion), and Ranger (for skills/feats) ought to be solid too, if a bit weighted on the arcane side. You can throw in a bit of Cleric and play with persistomancy...

*Binder for Leraje would be neat-- Precise Shot and ricochet are neat. You might also look for something full-BAB, like Ranger.

[Ethernil]

I suppose, yeah. I mean, leaning towards bard is suboptimal from a casting point of view, and normally I wouldn't recommend Fochlucan Lyrist without incarnum (to get Evasion), but if you want trapfinding and skill points, and you're shooting for a high tier 3, it'll do just fine. You might want to trade that animal companion for something else, with only one level of advancement on it.

You'd basically be a bard with slightly weak casting/music until level 16 or so, because your druid casting takes a good while to catch up. At 16th level, you would get 4th-level druid spells, one behind your fifth-level bard spells. At 20th level, you would have 6th-level druid and bard spells.

I think power-wise this build would be fine in our game. I could ask for open chakra and bind impulse boots feats to be allowed as an exception but i still would need trapfinding so it wouldn't help much. Changing the entry to rogue 2 bard 4 druid 4 would improve my spellcasting but it would nerf my bardick knowledge, bard songs and skill points. And if we continue playing into low epic levels as we sometimes do i can then pick a divine casting prc to advance druid, since dual progression ones don't work right?

As for the chameleon archer idea, i would get into an argument for soulknife to be allowed and i don't think it would be worth it. Maybe ranger 2 for trapfinding acf, skill points and an archery feat along with professions, monk for wisdom or intelligence to ac, swashbuckler for finesse and int to damage(though it's still precision), duskblade 3 to be followed by arcane archer after chameleon 10...(though that last bit prolly needs you to be half elf with heritage feat).

Probably ranger 2 - duskblade 3 - chameleon 10 - arcane archer 5 ? 17 bab, caster level for floating feat shenanigans, channeling arcane and divine spells with both melee and ranged attacks and buffs from both lists.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think power-wise this build would be fine in our game. I could ask for open chakra and bind impulse boots feats to be allowed as an exception but i still would need trapfinding so it wouldn't help much. Changing the entry to rogue 2 bard 4 druid 4 would improve my spellcasting but it would nerf my bardick knowledge, bard songs and skill points. And if we continue playing into low epic levels as we sometimes do i can then pick a divine casting prc to advance druid, since dual progression ones don't work right?
You can use Arcane Hierophant (arcane/druid theurge) in a bard 4/druid 3/AH 3/Fochlucan Lyrist build to get maximum casting without rogue levels. If you want Trapfinding, you could add a level of spellthief, scout, ninja, beguiler, artificer, or factotum, if you want a change from rogue (not all of these get Evasion, so you need those feats still). Dual-progression classes work just fine in epic, it's just Mystic Theurge that's broken.

For a low epic game without incarnum, I'd probably just go with rogue 2/bard 4/druid 3/arcane hierophant 1/fochlucan lyrist 10/arcane hierophant X.