Level 9 Stale Combats!

[BobsYourUncle!]

So I am working with a DM and trying to help him through a tough situation in a game. Not something that normally comes up. The part is level 9 with a heavy Divine Influence. There are two Clerics, A Fighter/Cleric and a Favored Soul. The DM is having issues making combats threatening without being over powered. I have suggested some terrain things etc to help but there are still a few glaring issues.

1. The Clerical Presence in the party makes it hard for Monsters to Actually due damage. One of the Clerics is focusing on Buff spells and armor increases. At any time there is a Plus 10 to AC and Plus 8 to Touch AC going on from spells. This is making the party at level 9 have AC's like 30 and Touch AC's in the 20's.

2. Healing: The Other Cleric has focused on Healing and Turning so even if damage goes through. It can be healed quickly and without much issue.

3. Damage Output from the Fighter and Favored Soul through summoned creatures and spells can take down a 100 plus HP monster in about 3 to 4 rounds at most.

Is there any suggestions on how to make combats at this level more challenging? I know as the CR goes up even a 30 AC wont really be enough but for now its a huge issue.

[zlefin]

the simplest method is to use higher CR monsters of course; but I assume you've already thought of that.
A more complex method is to optimize the monsters/foes more. Most people use the monsters straight out of the monster manuals, but you can adjust some of their feats to make them more threatening; and include more foes with class levels that are well-built to also present more of a threat.
if your party is high powered or high optimization than the monsters will in general need some extra oomph to counteract that. most baseline monsters are low optimization (at least compared to what you can find on these boards).
to some extent, your party composition simply makes issues inevitable, as unless you pass the tipping point of armor+healing you won't be seriously threatened. and a cleric-heavy party is just going to be like that.

you could certainly use more monsters targetting things other than AC. target the saving throws more, or use untargetted effects. also add some stuff that has dispel magic.

[Uckleverry]

It makes no real difference whether you introduce higher CR enemies or optimize lower CR foes. The end result is tougher opposition.

If their ACs get high, you can target saving throws. Usually accomplished by spells and similar abilities.

Thing is, encounters in 3.5 have a tendency to become swingy at higher levels. It's part and parcel for the game. It's not really possible to make the encounters feel similar to what they did some levels ago. E6 became popular for a reason.

[Mike Miller]

Dispel magic could help here. Greater dispel for greater efficacy. If lots of buffs and summoned monsters are the issue, that can remove it. Also, circles against alignment and protection from alignment can help vs the summoned monsters.

[Psyren]

Check the "GM's Guide To Challenging Encounters" in my sig. For a longer answer, have them read some Angry GM articles.

[zlefin]

one other note is to make sure the enemies are using good tactics; sometimes monsters with high int/wis aren't played using intelligent tactics which makes them weaker than they'd otherwise be.

[BobsYourUncle!]

Makes sense so far. I worry about higher CR monsters getting to much and wiping the party as well. They seem to handle a lot but in the end to much is to much but something to consider. Dispel is a great idea. or multiple mobs to make them not focus. Would like to hear more and will check out the DMG.

Thank You,

Please keep em coming.

[zlefin]

It will be very tricky to find the sweet spot of rencounters; that's just a consequences o fthe kind of party you have, it's prone to either take no damage by the end or be wiped out. when you have high armor and that much healing, it's just inevitable.
you definitely want to be careful about using single higher cr enemies; those tend to result in either: the enemy dies horribly due to action economy (4 party moves to one action by the enemy); or it uses a high-powered ability which wipes out the party; or it kills 1-2 players with a powerful ability before getting wiped out by the rest of the party.

[tyckspoon]

It sounds like you're a little over-focused on damage to HP and attacks against AC. The party is entirely divine casters; even the one that isn't a full caster has pretty good odds of using divine scrolls. Start mixing in things that attack saves and inflict ability damage or status conditions. Those will feel a lot more threatening to them than just HP damage, and while they have the ability to recover from them (5th level spells means Restoration and Break Enchantment, along with regular Cures, Cure Poison/Disease, and Dispel Magic - they can treat anything short of 'requires Heal or similar magic to recover')
they're going to feel a lot more pressure from something dealing Wis or Con damage or petrifying/nauseating/Panic-ing one of them out of the fight than they will just marking off some HP.. especially because they probably won't have the ability to spontaneously convert to the appropriate spells, which means putting some pressure on their spell selection choices, spending consumables (not a bad thing, a lot of players under-use consumables), or allowing the damage/status effect to persist until they get a chance to re-prepare and set the appropriate treatment spell. And sure, they can also add buffs to boost their saves or gain immunities to those kinds of attacks, but that's fine too - it means they're now making choices about what to prepare and what to cast in a fight, since most of those spells don't last long enough to just cast and forget. Shake up their standard fight routine and they'll probably feel more threatened even if the net result is still 'we spent a few spells and suffered no long term damage' just like it is for an AC/HP-centered fight.

It's also important to not go too overboard with that kind of thing; there's a rule of thumb that what a player spends their character resources on tells you what they find fun and want to do in the game. The players presumably like being able to go toe to toe with big melee bruisers and come out relatively unscratched, so their encounters should still have a fairly high proportion of fights based on those concepts or at least include on element of it so they can continue enjoying that. (They may also have been taught by prior play experience that they *have* to do that to not die, and because it's nearly impossible to do things at a calibrated level with D&D's spells ended up going over the top. It would be worth checking their gear and seeing if they are significantly under-equipped for the level - everybody playing casters is a commonly suggested response to complaints that non-casters aren't getting enough magic swag to hold up their end of the mechanics.)

Edit: Sample fight template:
Flunkies + Bruiser - One fairly big buff melee combatant shouting around a bunch of weak minions. Something like a half-dragon Orc Barbarian (or Fighter or whatever fightin' class you like) with (scale according to desired challenge) 4-10 Kobold Warriors. The Kobolds are going to die as soon as any serious attention is paid to them; that's ok. They're on the field to clutter up the combat map (isolating the Barbarian and his chosen enemy and give ablative defense against summons), provide flanking bonuses, soak Attacks of Opportunity, and use Aid Another. Aid Another only requires hitting a flat AC 10; the actual AC of the target you're Aiding against doesn't matter. 4-6 Kobolds swarm around the guy you want to smash and the Barbarian delays his initiative until after they've all attempted to Aid. Most of them will succeed, giving the Barbarian +2 to hit per Kobold on his next attack, plus another +2 for flanking. Give them all feats that increase the benefit for flanking or Swarmfighting or add a bard/other caster who can lay out a couple of group buffs to help scale it into higher levels.

[BobsYourUncle!]

Makes Sense. And there have been a couple of encounters that have almost wiped the party. Lesser beholder was one. But yea the big bruisers etc don't seem to work well at all. We had them fight three Boneclaws but the monster got one good hit on surprise round but never threatened again. So yeah maybe mixing in some other things would be helpful. maybe have 1 or 2 bruisers that will draw attention while another is taking small amounts of stats or resources away from them is a good idea. Yeah I have noticed that there are something that could just wipe a party. I mean from time to time a player death helps keep things grounded but you don't want it every session either. you want a good bit of time between those type of encounters. Thank you. Keep the suggestions coming.

What do you think of a bunch of smaller enemies in a swarm type thing? like maybe a bunch of mobs that are really low and wont due much damage but is a lot of them?

[Gildedragon]

Terrain and Tactics

Don't use just one strong monster but two or three slightly weaker ones that have home turf advantage (are up on a ledge, are taking cover, avoid natural traps)

Use difficult terrain to break charges, use ambushes from behind to attack the clerics...

What monsters have they been using? Or what monsters they plan to use soon?

Also flying monsters and treacherous terrain (like say a bog or floor with quicksand)

[Beheld]

Your party sounds like it's relying mostly on summons and melee attacks to do damage, and AC as a defense, so depending on the campaign circumstances, it makes perfect sense for enemies to realize that, and make accommodations.

If the enemies know that summons are a big part of the damage, then they can operate with magic circle effects to help avoid that problem, and respond to summons by leaving and waiting out durations.

Something like an Avoral, CR 9, with Magic Circle always up, Dimension Door at will, and a fear aura, and attacks that target saves (hold person) or dispel magic on the characters and their armors. Harassing them to use up spells without engaging.

A Hezrou can spam Chaos Hammer and Unholy Blight from range and teleport away to set up another harass position.

A Vrock has Mirror Images to protect itself, does damage with no attack roll from Spores, can summon Dretches to stinking cloud things, and can teleport away whenever they summon to waste their spells.

A Barbed Devil has a +18 to hit, so a decent chance of hitting, but can use Greater Teleport to escape and wait out summons, and can use Major Images to waste spells from the PCs, and can begin by harassing with Unholy Blight and Order's Wrath, and also can attack saves with Hold Person.

A Bone Devil can use invisibility and infinite range see in darkness to fly/teleport around harassing them with major images and Ice Walls and use up resources without ever letting them close.

A Devourer can use Confusion and Suggestion on the party, and deliver negative levels as a touch attack. Confusion from surprise can do a lot to prevent the party from doing the things it might like to do.

A Greater or Elder Earth Elemental can hide in the ground, punching them from below, and whenever they summon, just not come out until the summon ends. Slams at +23 and +27 should have no specific trouble hitting ACs in the 20s and 30s.

Formian Mynarchs have Magic Circle up and Greater Teleport to bounce out of harassment, and they can use Clairvoyance to spy on PCs to wait out the summons In combat they are significantly less likely to do permanent damage, but they can harass with javelin throws and Teleport away to let fast healing return them to full to repeat.

Zelekauts have Fear and hold person at will, some hold monsters, dispel magic at will to strip defenses or negate summons.

[zlefin]

a bunch of small monsters can help vs some things; but won't do well vs a high ac party unless they use alternate tactics, or the monsters have a buff source or a dispel source. mostly they'll just miss all their attacks if they're attacking ac.
they might do a bit better if they focus on using alchemical items though or other things which are less sensitive to ac.
the high touch acs means the ywon't be able to try grappling. make sure they use the aid another action, that's helpful for such cases.

[Eldariel]

Spellcasting monsters. Aberrations, Outsiders, actual characters with caster levels, etc. Battlefield control, summons, et cetera. Very resistant to brute force solutions to force slightly different encounters and fights. Save-or-X effects of course too, and figuring out when someone's charmed/dominated and so on.

[Menzath]

I agree with alot of what's being said, but on the better tactics/multiple smaller creatures point what comes to mind is Tucker's kobolds.

Archers behind barricades, with pit traps loaded with oil and spikes.
Though clerics can trivialize the Archer part, give a few of them a couple alchemists fire or acid flasks, maybe set up a collapsing wall.

With terrain advantage alot of monsters instantly become harder, so don't forget to calculate that into the CR.

And if the PC's are assualting a fort, I think the enemies could be even more prepared.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It sounds like the stale encounters are playing to the party's strengths and ignoring their weaknesses. All cleric parties can be very strong but tend to have some major weaknesses that should show up from time to time in order to keep encounters from being stale.

1. Reflex saves. Usually these do damage which the party can heal but sometimes (resilient sphere, etc) they can also shut the party down.

2. Ranged attacks. If the party is up against a for who is a ranged attacker and wants to stay at range, their offense will usually experience a huge drop off.

3. Movement. A scenario that requires the party to move and/or pursue rather than stand still and exchange beatdowns will often force some creative thinking for a mostly divine party. Sometimes this calls for an encounter that is about more than just killing the monsters-users example preventing the monsters from escaping, or stealing, destroying, or damaging the mcguffin.

4. Dispel magic. Any buff dependent party is vulnerable to dispel magic (or countering-id guess there's a recitation spell in the mix somewhere-users readied action silence that shuts down the recitation would also throw the party's usual tactics for a loop, especially if it kept other party members from casting their spells).

5. Magic circles. Magic circle is a hard counter to summons. A few monsters have or can generate magic circles. But don't forget that unhallow gives everyone inside permanent protection from good too. Fighting in the ruined temple of the tentacle monster from beyond? Free protection from good for everyone!

6. Brute harder. You can scale up brutes past the ability of the party to heal the damage. With noncore spells (most notably delay death) this can be harder but an elder earth elemental with fighter and barbarian levels and an actual weapon can readily have the attack bonus to hit decent buffed level appropriate ACs and deal enough full attack damage to take them from full to dead. This is a high risk strategy because such a creature is likely to kill PCs but all levels have their "don't stand around and trade full attacks" monsters and optimized buffing can be offset by optimized monster creation and advancement.


A few example encounters that exploit some of those weaknesses.

A. A dragon with a mounted Archer rider. Not much reason to get in close. Breathe, shoot, repeat, and stay out of range.

B. An evil priest with a few underpriests for things like countering magic with readied action silence spells and his called devil's in the ruined of an ancient temple. Dispel magic from the priest to eliminate buffs in an area effect. Counters from the underpriests as well as buffs (maybe from scrolls) and area damage as well as ranged attacks/beatdown from the buffed outsiders. (Vrocks have been mentioned for automatic damage but don't forget their telekinesis ability can do some good ranged damage if you have racks of weapons, barrels of arrows, or anything like that around. And if you don't, pulling all a PC's arrows from his quiver and shooting another PC with them is highly entertaining even if the will save makes it a low percentage play against a heavily divine party).

[Gnaeus]

Just as a note, the numbers you are talking about aren't even particularly optimized. The fighter + summons can drop a 100+ hp monster in 3-4 rounds? That's less than 25-33 average damage per round. Our party fighter is close to that at level 2. AC 30 at 9 isn't super optimized either. Mithril plate +2, heavy shield +2, and a splash of NA and deflection can get you there without any real opti-fu. Most bog standard big thuddy CR 9 monsters can hit it with a decent roll. Those are numbers I would expect out of ANY ecl 9 character which used AC as a defense or HP damage as a way to drop enemies.

[Beheld]

Just as a note, the numbers you are talking about aren't even particularly optimized. The fighter + summons can drop a 100+ hp monster in 3-4 rounds? That's less than 25-33 average damage per round. Our party fighter is close to that at level 2. AC 30 at 9 isn't super optimized either. Mithril plate +2, heavy shield +2, and a splash of NA and deflection can get you there without any real opti-fu. Most bog standard big thuddy CR 9 monsters can hit it with a decent roll. Those are numbers I would expect out of ANY ecl 9 character which used AC as a defense or HP damage as a way to drop enemies.

Oh wow... I just in my head assumed it was 100hp in one round, but it's in 3-4 Jeeze. Yeah, throw a Beblith at them, web them, and hit their AC 30 slightly more than half the time for more than 4 rounds because they can't attack when trapped in a web and the Beblith has reach.

[BobsYourUncle!]

Terrain and Tactics

Don't use just one strong monster but two or three slightly weaker ones that have home turf advantage (are up on a ledge, are taking cover, avoid natural traps)

Use difficult terrain to break charges, use ambushes from behind to attack the clerics...

What monsters have they been using? Or what monsters they plan to use soon?

Also flying monsters and treacherous terrain (like say a bog or floor with quicksand)


Well we did have those 3 Boneclaws recently. Other then that. has been varied from undead to non-undead. Had an Ogre Barbarian not to long ago. Had some giant spiders that actually was a tough fight due to webs etc. I cant recall off the top of my head every monster but has been quite a bit. Monsters from Manual 1-3 mostly.

The idea to break up charges etc and use terrain is a good one as well. Maybe divide the party etc.

[BobsYourUncle!]

Just as a note, the numbers you are talking about aren't even particularly optimized. The fighter + summons can drop a 100+ hp monster in 3-4 rounds? That's less than 25-33 average damage per round. Our party fighter is close to that at level 2. AC 30 at 9 isn't super optimized either. Mithril plate +2, heavy shield +2, and a splash of NA and deflection can get you there without any real opti-fu. Most bog standard big thuddy CR 9 monsters can hit it with a decent roll. Those are numbers I would expect out of ANY ecl 9 character which used AC as a defense or HP damage as a way to drop enemies.

100 Damage in a single hit at level 2? Really? you must be using some serious splat books etc. there is optimized and then there in min maxed craziness. that sounds like the later. We are limiting what people can do already to help mitigate what you are talking about. and 100 Hp was a rough number not exact. I am sure several have been bigger and some are smaller was an easy estimate number. Spells max out even at this level at 8 or 9 dice usually. you can only do so much with a weapon without cheesing out a lot. Most the party is sitting at about 20 or 21 armor at this level plus buffs. Right at the curve in the DMG for treasure gained. We don't have a main tank at all. this is the biggest weakness of the party and we have been working to exploit that. I do agree that large Thuddy monsters usually sound like a great idea but one solidary creature usually dies to quickly to do any real damage.

[BobsYourUncle!]

I agree with alot of what's being said, but on the better tactics/multiple smaller creatures point what comes to mind is Tucker's kobolds.

Archers behind barricades, with pit traps loaded with oil and spikes.
Though clerics can trivialize the Archer part, give a few of them a couple alchemists fire or acid flasks, maybe set up a collapsing wall.

With terrain advantage alot of monsters instantly become harder, so don't forget to calculate that into the CR.

And if the PC's are assualting a fort, I think the enemies could be even more prepared.



We have tried a couple of archers. I think terrain was a big issue as to why they were not effective. The fighter/cleric is actually and archer build and ranged. The FS has several blasty spells and of course the clerics have some as well. Ranged has not been an issue. but again may have been terrain that was not as good for it. maybe an ambush in a chasm etc where the archers have higher ground.

[BobsYourUncle!]

1. Reflex saves. Usually these do damage which the party can heal but sometimes (resilient sphere, etc) they can also shut the party down.

2. Ranged attacks. If the party is up against a for who is a ranged attacker and wants to stay at range, their offense will usually experience a huge drop off.

3. Movement. A scenario that requires the party to move and/or pursue rather than stand still and exchange beatdowns will often force some creative thinking for a mostly divine party. Sometimes this calls for an encounter that is about more than just killing the monsters-users example preventing the monsters from escaping, or stealing, destroying, or damaging the mcguffin.

4. Dispel magic. Any buff dependent party is vulnerable to dispel magic (or countering-id guess there's a recitation spell in the mix somewhere-users readied action silence that shuts down the recitation would also throw the party's usual tactics for a loop, especially if it kept other party members from casting their spells).

B. An evil priest with a few underpriests for things like countering magic with readied action silence spells and his called devil's in the ruined of an ancient temple. Dispel magic from the priest to eliminate buffs in an area effect. Counters from the underpriests as well as buffs (maybe from scrolls) and area damage as well as ranged attacks/beatdown from the buffed outsiders. (Vrocks have been mentioned for automatic damage but don't forget their telekinesis ability can do some good ranged damage if you have racks of weapons, barrels of arrows, or anything like that around. And if you don't, pulling all a PC's arrows from his quiver and shooting another PC with them is highly entertaining even if the will save makes it a low percentage play against a heavily divine party).[/QUOTE]


I really like this thank you, will definetly help plan some variety into things. I also don't want to plan every battle to kill them outright either. but a boss fight I feel should feel like a boss fight lol:) it seems that some of the underling fights have been tougher and would be nice to switch that lol

[Gnaeus]

100 Damage in a single hit at level 2? Really? you must be using some serious splat books etc. there is optimized and then there in min maxed craziness. that sounds like the later. We are limiting what people can do already to help mitigate what you are talking about. and 100 Hp was a rough number not exact. I am sure several have been bigger and some are smaller was an easy estimate number. Spells max out even at this level at 8 or 9 dice usually. you can only do so much with a weapon without cheesing out a lot. Most the party is sitting at about 20 or 21 armor at this level plus buffs. Right at the curve in the DMG for treasure gained. We don't have a main tank at all. this is the biggest weakness of the party and we have been working to exploit that. I do agree that large Thuddy monsters usually sound like a great idea but one solidary creature usually dies to quickly to do any real damage.

Almost 25 damage at level 2. Enough to do 100 in 4 rounds. His large 2h sword does 3d6 + 11. By 9th level I'd be expecting more than 25 damage per hit, 2-3 hits per round. Killing a hundred HP monster in 4 rounds is aggressively low op.

Yes, basic damage spells tend to cap at 10 dice, but there are plenty of Save or Lose spells by 9, and if you are focused on blasting you shouldn't be doing 9d6 at level 9. My 9th level sorcerer does 21d6 +21 force damage with his 3rd level slots. (Or 22d6+22 fire damage with 2nds). Now, that IS at a higher optimization level, but the worst caster using poor spells should be doing more than 30/round.

I'm not saying you are doing it wrong. Play the game you want to play. But I am saying that the numbers you are tossing out (AC 30 at level 9, taking 3 rounds to kill things with 100 HP) are not in any way high optimization numbers that should require min-maxing monsters. You seem well within the low optimization range that published modules and standard CR encounters are aimed at.

Edit: I'd expect a little less damage from an archer but more consistently and with more shots. 3-4 attacks per round at something like 1d8+1d6+5 ish for an archer type who isn't trying hard, likely beating DR with clustered shot, or just shooting silver/iron/adamantine arrows. Now, he may have fallen behind with multiclassing. But if so, I don't see how you are having difficulty with them rolling basic encounters.