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View Full Version : Time Stop is not the most powerful 9th level Arcane spell.



Aquillion
2007-08-09, 02:12 AM
Gee, this seems like a sort of silly thing to make a thread over, but I keep seeing it over and over and over... whenever people talk about magic's balance, it's always Time Stop that comes up.

Time Stop is very good, certainly. Anything that gives you extra actions is very good. But it isn't broken in the sense that the two really absurd 9th level spells are: Shapechange and Gate.

Either one of those spells can do just about anything you're ever likely to need. Shapechange essentially gives you instant access to every extraordinary or supernatural ability possessed by any creature of HD up to your level, to a max of 25. You also get access to every single method of movement, and attacks that are massively beyond what any player was ever supposed to have. If you turn into a form that regenerates or has fast healing, you are, per RAW, totally healed instantly (since Shapechange says it functions like Polymorph, and Polymorph gives you a night's rest worth of healing when you change.) Note that you can, of course, do this once a round as a free action. You can get otherwise unobtainable physical stats, while keeping your primary-spellcaster mental stats. If you are ever (somehow) in any danger, you can just take a shape that isn't endangered by that situation--there's always going to be something.

Shapechange also gives you +10 on your disguise check, which is sort of hilarious. I can see it going somewhat like this:

PC: *shapechanges into the Duke and walks up to a guard* "I am the Duke!"
Guard: *squints* "What? No, you're not."
PC: *shapechanges into a dragon, then back into the Duke*
Guard: "GAH! A-- um-- Right this way, your grace..."
PC: "Thank you."

Note that Shapechange doesn't even cost you any xp or gold.

Gate is even more powerful, but it costs you at least a little xp to do anything fun. Whereas Shapechange gives you access to any ability possessed by any creature with HD up to your level, Gate gives you access to... anything. Well, not quite anything; they helpfully put a ceiling there of twice your HD, which means that an arcane caster, right after they get Gate, can call in a creature of HD up to 34 right off the bat, and have them do anything at all as long as it can be done in 17 rounds (hint: if you are in a fight that can't be resolved by something with twice your HD in less than 17 rounds, something is very wrong.)

Anyway... like I said, it's not like Time Stop isn't powerful. But people keep referring to it as if it were the capstone arcane power or something, and it isn't, not by a long shot.

earlblue
2007-08-09, 02:18 AM
Heh...

Of course time stop is not the most powerful. I wish :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: you would stop saying that...

O'BeQuiet UWannabe.

"Obewan Kenobe?"
"Nope. I'm a parody of him. I'm the great O'BeQuiet UWannabe. Of course, the Farce is great within me."
"O Be Quiet!"
"Yep! That's me!"

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-09, 02:20 AM
Heh...

Of course time stop is not the most powerful. I wish :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: you would stop saying that...

O'BeQuiet UWannabe.


Wish is actually pretty crappy.

TheOOB
2007-08-09, 02:23 AM
Theres one fact you are not taking into account. The most valuable resource in D&D is actions, and time stop gives you actions to spare. A time stop can let you cast both those spells and still have a few rounds to spare, you can rebuff yourself, run away, prepare a trap, and even ready an offensive action for when time stops duration ends. It's not the most powerful spells alone, but it is an enabler for some of the most power tricks in the game, especially if combined with celerity.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-09, 02:29 AM
Paul Bunyan is the most powerful 9th-level spell!

TheOOB
2007-08-09, 02:30 AM
Wish is actually pretty crappy.

The problum with wish is that its power is dependant on what your DM lets you get away with. If you only do the exact effects it mentions, it's not worth half that xp cost, but some DMs dont let you go beyond that at all.

Jack Mann
2007-08-09, 02:45 AM
Wish should really work more like Miracle. It should have some effects without the XP cost. Duplicating other spells, that sort of thing.

Aquillion
2007-08-09, 02:47 AM
Theres one fact you are not taking into account. The most valuable resource in D&D is actions, and time stop gives you actions to spare. A time stop can let you cast both those spells and still have a few rounds to spare, you can rebuff yourself, run away, prepare a trap, and even ready an offensive action for when time stops duration ends. It's not the most powerful spells alone, but it is an enabler for some of the most power tricks in the game, especially if combined with celerity.Gate actually 'gives' you more actions over the course of its effect.

Shapechange can give you more extra actions in the long term, too, by Shapechanging into a Choker to take advantage of its Quickness (one extra move or standard action per round. Absurd to remember when we used to be able to do that with a third-level haste.) And unless you completely screw up, Shapechange should be able to completely protect you against any attack... Celerity -> Shapechange -> take any form the enemy can't hurt, then do whatever.

The point is, yes, Time Stop tricks look nasty... but when you get down to it, anything that you can't handle with Shapechange or Gate is probably so overwhelmingly powerful that nothing you're likely to do in those Time Stop turns is going to help you anyway. It's like arguing the advantages of a sniper rifle against a pair of laser-guided atomic bombs that, as a bonus gift, also come with every other weapon ever designed. And can do your laundry.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-09, 02:52 AM
Yes, but a clelerity/time stop combo will let you shapechange and prepare before you opponent can act.

Infact, I think it could be argued that celerity is the most powerful spell in the game.

TheOOB
2007-08-09, 03:00 AM
Gate actually 'gives' you more actions over the course of its effect.

Shapechange can give you more extra actions in the long term, too, by Shapechanging into a Choker to take advantage of its Quickness (one extra move or standard action per round. Absurd to remember when we used to be able to do that with a third-level haste.) And unless you completely screw up, Shapechange should be able to completely protect you against any attack... Celerity -> Shapechange -> take any form the enemy can't hurt, then do whatever.

The point is, yes, Time Stop tricks look nasty... but when you get down to it, anything that you can't handle with Shapechange or Gate is probably so overwhelmingly powerful that nothing you're likely to do in those Time Stop turns is going to help you anyway. It's like arguing the advantages of a sniper rifle against a pair of laser-guided atomic bombs that, as a bonus gift, also come with every other weapon ever designed. And can do your laundry.

You're thinking about power again, not utility, and utility is what makes a mage so great. A time stop nets you 1d4+1 spells right here, right now, no questions asked, heck if you use quickened spells you can cast twice that many. In the period of a round you can cast shapechange, gate in a bunch of creatures, and re-quicken cast all of your low-level buffs, dimension dooring out before your duration ends.

Maryring
2007-08-09, 03:00 AM
Not without Foresight it isn't, as it is Foresight that allows you to not be caught flatfooted, and thus be able to cast (greater) celerity

Also...

And can do your laundry.
Why do people always say that the wizard does the laundry? Don't you know? Dirty underwear is the second biggest gateway to ultimate arcane power. Right below the mythical doily.

TheOOB
2007-08-09, 03:01 AM
Not without Foresight it isn't, as it is Foresight that allows you to not be caught flatfooted, and thus be able to cast (greater) celerity

Also...

Why do people always say that the wizard does the laundry? Don't you know? Dirty underwear is the second biggest gateway to ultimate arcane power. Right below the mythical doily.

Because a level 0 wizard spell cleans better then an army of commoners.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-09, 03:02 AM
The wizard does the laundry because he has Prestidigitation, which can clean things!

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-08-09, 03:03 AM
There are a few problems with both Gate and Shapechange:

Gate:
1) You don't command the creature mentally-it has to perform a single service for you. So if you are not very specific, problems arise if the creature doesn't want to help. Telling "Help me slay the dragon" to the 40 HD Balor may result to a CL 40 Blasphemy SLA on the Balor's part. Yes, it slays the dragon so the Balor "obeyed". Guess what? It also slew you. Gate's power depends on the DM.
2) Banishment.
3) Gateseal.
4) Can't summon/call in protected areas (such as within a forbiddance effect or a dimension lock or a hallow/unhallow with dim. anchor tied in) so it is useless against a smart BBEG.

Shapechange:
1) You can't Shapechange into outsiders-because you can't polymorph into outsiders.
2) Greater Dispel Magic!
3) Mordenkainen's Disjunction!
4) You lose all your items the creature can't wear. Dragons don't have the same slots as humans do-and so do most of the very powerful creatures out there.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-09, 03:19 AM
Edit: whoops, double post. Anyway, you can Shapechange into Outsiders, Belial. (Incidentally, the really good ones--say, Solars--are humanoid-shaped and thus have all the appropriate slots.) Shapechange explicitly removes all type restrictions.

Jasdoif
2007-08-09, 03:21 AM
The wizard does the laundry because he has Prestidigitation, which can clean things!Exactly! What else would a Time Stop and/or Shapechange slinging wizard do with those cantrip slots, anyway? They're basically getting Eschew Detergent as a bonus feat....

TheOOB
2007-08-09, 03:28 AM
Just remember, if a spell takes an action to use, and it doesn't directly affect an enemy, it is better with time stop.

earlblue
2007-08-09, 03:29 AM
Heh...

I suppose I should clarify myself.

Wish is potentially the most powerful spell. It has been for the two previous editions. It is true that it depends largely on the DM, that a weak DM will allow too much, and a mean DM too little. But a good DM will use the players' wish to further the game. So, the player can attempt to do anything with the wish, while the DM should limit it if the player is going overboard.

The other spells are designed with a certain effect in mind, and is powerful with regards to that aspect. a time stop spell is great in a fight, allow you to cast more spells within a round. But other then that, what use do you really have for 1d4+1 rounds of extra time?

So.

O'BeQuiet UWannabe.

Kioran
2007-08-09, 03:32 AM
Wish is actually pretty crappy.

You are wrong in so far as Wish is pretty powerful and has unique applications. You are right, however, if you say Wish is terribly expensive for what it does and not worth the hassle most of the time. But thatīs not crappy, thatīs inefficient.

Kaelaroth
2007-08-09, 05:46 AM
Wish is only fun, at least in my opinion, when you are DMing.

Evil Wizard: I will grant you one Wish!
PC Fighter: I wish I was more intelligent!
Evil Wizard: Baleful Polymorph
PC Fighter: Ribbit.

You don't even need the ninth-level XP draining newbie trap! :smallsmile:

Kioran
2007-08-09, 06:05 AM
Itīnot a newbie trap - itīs a highly powerful, possibly campaign altering spell which is terribly costly - something like a minor artifact really. Now Iīm aware that story-driven/story-driving magic is not terribly popular around here, but thatīs what wish is - you use it once, possibly twice tops, during the finale of a long-running campaign. Or buy it from an NPC to boost your stats - but only in epic or quasi-epic campaigns, so that hardly counts.#

But with Psionics as a dry-run for the 4th ed Arcane Magic system (donīt tell itīs flavor - itīs a playtest, nothing more, nothing less), these things and interesting, but not terribly useful spells like "Tenserīs floating disk" will disappear anyway if itīs adopted.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-09, 06:06 AM
I think the reason Time Stop is such a popular example is that the two spells you note make terrible discussion pieces.

Gate (for summoning) is unsubtly broken (though expensive, unless you don't do it directly). Gate-based calling is a manufacturer of brokenness, contaminating everything it touches. Gate+Titan->universal splat, as is often noted.

Shapechange is the capstone of the already critically messed up polymorph family of spells. They don't seem to get much discussion, maybe because their problems are so clear that WoTC stopped trying to make them work and essentially deprecated the lot of them.

Falrin
2007-08-09, 06:41 AM
Wish: High Xp cost, Crappy Limits & Possible DM screwover. TO much negatives for the effort.

Gate: Hey look, here's wish again, and again, and again. Oh and he took his budy Miracle with him along with his infinite army for when he still feels lonely.

Shapechange: Uhu. Hey look, I'm wathever I want. 'But aren't you supposed to be a squishy, high int caster?' 'Nah, not anymore, now I'm a perfect meatshield, even higher int, flying, teleporting caster/fighter/rogue thing.'

Timestopt: Hey wait a sec, I've got an idea: Let's buff first. As buffing is thé most important thing you can do before a fight, now is your chance.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-09, 12:35 PM
Not without Foresight it isn't, as it is Foresight that allows you to not be caught flatfooted, and thus be able to cast (greater) celerity

You could also dip 2 in Scout: Uncanny Dodge from a Scout is never flatfoot.
Sure you won't be able to cast 9th level spells till 19th level if a wizard, but you just gained immunity from flatfootedness.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-09, 12:55 PM
http://oneofthejonesboys.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/bunny.jpg

Once wizards reach 9th level spellcasting, the game balance is so completely messed up that parsing out which 9th level spell is the uber-brokennest is...well...silly.

In it's own way, Gate and Shapechange are really good spells to exist because they force players to look at them and realize exactly how ridiculous the wizard really is.

Jasdoif
2007-08-09, 12:55 PM
You could also dip 2 in Scout: Uncanny Dodge from a Scout is never flatfoot. No, Uncanny Dodge just means you retain your Dex bonus to AC when flatfooted. You're still flatfooted.

...or is the Scout's different? I can't check Complete Adventurer at the moment.

mudbunny
2007-08-09, 01:02 PM
Shapechange can be powerful, it all depends on how picky the DM is about the line in the description for Shapechange that goes:


You can become just about anything you are familiar with.


IMO, simply killing something does not make you familiar with it. Knowing how to effectively kill something doesn't make you familiar with it.

PirateMonk
2007-08-09, 01:10 PM
IMHAO, having enough ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill does make you familiar with it.

Falrin
2007-08-09, 01:10 PM
Read a book about it.

Gate it in.

Summon it.

Ask you Druid Budy to summon it.

Go to a friendly guy of it's kind (greater teleport)

Start at LvL 7 and say you roamed the entire world with a freak circus gathering the most abscure & strange monsters around, travelled along with a horizon walker and had cable tv before you decided to become a wizard.

That's the druids: Only shape into something you know Fluff.With Know Planes, Arcana, nature & Religion well in the +30 you should know them.

puppyavenger
2007-08-09, 01:21 PM
Wait I thought it was generaly agreed that programed amnisia was the most powerful 9th level spell.

PirateMonk
2007-08-09, 01:29 PM
How long does it take to cast?

Indon
2007-08-09, 01:29 PM
Just remember, if a spell takes an action to use, and it doesn't directly affect an enemy, it is better with time stop.

It's also better if you're a Choker.

Drider
2007-08-09, 01:44 PM
I thought silent(+1), still(+1), widened(+3) quickened (+4) Ray of Frost was the best 9th lvl spell... OMG, with this new knowledge...I CAN RULE THE WORLD!!!...at least the campaign world.

Indon
2007-08-09, 01:46 PM
I thought silent(+1), still(+1), widened(+3) quickened (+4) Ray of Frost was the best 9th lvl spell... OMG, with this new knowledge...I CAN RULE THE WORLD!!!...at least the campaign world.

It's certainly the most awesome way to cool your drinks while your gated solars do everything for you.

Magi_Ring_O
2007-08-09, 01:51 PM
Back to the Gate argument, can't you just Gate in something that can cast Wish for you for free?

PirateMonk
2007-08-09, 01:52 PM
Because that's cheezy. :smalltongue:

SurlySeraph
2007-08-09, 02:35 PM
Back to the Gate argument, can't you just Gate in something that can cast Wish for you for free?

Exactly. This is why Gate is more overpowered than Wish.

Jack Mann
2007-08-09, 02:58 PM
Shapechange can be powerful, it all depends on how picky the DM is about the line in the description for Shapechange that goes:


IMO, simply killing something does not make you familiar with it. Knowing how to effectively kill something doesn't make you familiar with it.

There is no rule for familiarity. Therefore, any limits based on familiarity will ultimately be house rules.

mudbunny
2007-08-09, 03:03 PM
There is no rule for familiarity. Therefore, any limits based on familiarity will ultimately be house rules.

Hence why I had the phrases "IMO" and "it all depends on how picky the DM is".

Indon
2007-08-09, 03:06 PM
Exactly. This is why Gate is more overpowered than Wish.

Don't you have to bargain with the creature for that use? The use of Gate that only summons them for 17 rounds doesn't let them do things like that, I thought.

Jack Mann
2007-08-09, 03:10 PM
Hence why I had the phrases "IMO" and "it all depends on how picky the DM is".

Ah. I posted too quickly. It's a reflex, since too many people take their definition of familiarity as the RAW.

Incidentally, how does one acquire familiarity in your games, if fighting the creature is not enough? Does one have to perform a dissection? Get a research grant from the Great University of Druidism? Have been raised by the creature in question as part of one's backstory?

Indon
2007-08-09, 03:14 PM
Incidentally, how does one acquire familiarity in your games, if fighting the creature is not enough? Does one have to perform a dissection? Get a research grant from the Great University of Druidism? Have been raised by the creature in question as part of one's backstory?

...knowledge checks?

mudbunny
2007-08-09, 03:23 PM
Ah. I posted too quickly. It's a reflex, since too many people take their definition of familiarity as the RAW.

True dat.


Incidentally, how does one acquire familiarity in your games, if fighting the creature is not enough? Does one have to perform a dissection? Get a research grant from the Great University of Druidism? Have been raised by the creature in question as part of one's backstory?

None of my games have gotten that high, so I haven't had to worry about it yet, yet I would require a knowledge check as well as some study of them.

That being said, there would have to be some levels.

Basic critters (kobolds, goblins, etc) that have abilities similar to that of a Core PC class wouldn't require much studying at all.

As you start adding things that go beyond what ability the PC casting the spell has, you start upping the DC of the check. Some things that would have an effect:

Wings
Breath weapons
Special abilities


Of course, spending lots of time interacting with the race would provide a bonus to the DC check, as would being assisted in the prep for the spell by a being with knowledge of the race.

For example, if you are playing a dragonborn wizard, becoming a dragon is easier as you are part dragon yourself. Likewise, becoming a creature with wings/breath weapon would also be easier.

If they have never met it, well, they simply can't become it.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-09, 03:31 PM
Don't you have to bargain with the creature for that use? The use of Gate that only summons them for 17 rounds doesn't let them do things like that, I thought.

Nope! It's a short-term service that doesn't cost them anything (since they don't spend the experience points on the spell-like Wish).

Jothki
2007-08-09, 04:14 PM
Can you use Gate to grab things with class levels? Summoning a level 34 wizard seems like an obvious application.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 04:31 PM
Can you use Gate to grab things with class levels? Summoning a level 34 wizard seems like an obvious application.

...even if you could, that is probably the worst idea I have ever heard EVER, because unlike a random outsider, which doesn't have 34 levels of caster plus epic spellcasting plus as much free time as it wants, a really freaking epic wizard (even if he has no protections against that sort of thing) will remember your face perfectly, will be able to find you across no matter how many planes, and willbe able to unmake you and probably your ancestors for three generations back too.

Isn't "Don't Mess With Epic Casters", like, Rule -1 of D&D?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-09, 04:32 PM
Can't summon unique creatures, so no wizards, or probably anything with class levels.

Indon
2007-08-09, 04:45 PM
...even if you could, that is probably the worst idea I have ever heard EVER, because unlike a random outsider, which doesn't have 34 levels of caster plus epic spellcasting plus as much free time as it wants, a really freaking epic wizard (even if he has no protections against that sort of thing) will remember your face perfectly, will be able to find you across no matter how many planes, and willbe able to unmake you and probably your ancestors for three generations back too.

Isn't "Don't Mess With Epic Casters", like, Rule -1 of D&D?

He wouldn't need to do all of that.

He could just Gate you in.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 04:46 PM
He wouldn't need to do all of that.

He could just Gate you in.

HAH. Yeah, he could, couldn't he.
Epic lulz ensue.

greenknight
2007-08-09, 06:28 PM
There are a few problems with both Gate and Shapechange:

Gate:
1) You don't command the creature mentally-it has to perform a single service for you. So if you are not very specific, problems arise if the creature doesn't want to help.

You can control the creature mentally if you have telepathy. Furthermore, you control the creature, so you can stop it from taking particular actions in the course of performing the service for you. That said, it might take a particular action without letting you know first, so there is some potential for problems to arise.


2) Banishment.

Let's consider this for a moment:

1) Banishment allows a Will save to negate, and SR applies.
2) Outsiders have good Will saves, and many have high Wisdom scores
3) You can Gate in a single creature with up to 2x Caster Level HD
4) There's no restriction on Gated creatures having Templates, so there's nothing wrong with Gating a creature with the Pseudonatural Template, for example (no, that doesn't make them unique)
4) By the time you can cast Gate, you probably have at least one item which increases your effective Caster Level

So, you Gate in a pseudonatural outsider with at least 36 HD (and maximum hitpoints, since that's part of the template), a base Will save of 25+, and a Wisdom score of 30+, which means their final Will save is 40 or more, and the creature has a SR of 180+. Good luck getting through that SR, but even if you could it's likely to only fail its save on a 1 anyway.


3) Gateseal.

Gateseal targets a gate or portal, not a creature, so it can't do anything to a Gated creature. Furthermore, the Gate which is used to call the creature only remains open long enough for the creature to come through, so it's already gone by the time you get around to casting this spell.


4) Can't summon/call in protected areas (such as within a forbiddance effect or a dimension lock or a hallow/unhallow with dim. anchor tied in) so it is useless against a smart BBEG.

But you can summon/call outside the protected area, and the Gated creature can then move inside it - and remember, pseudonatural creatures have double their normal speed.

Aximili
2007-08-09, 07:33 PM
Yes, but a clelerity/time stop combo will let you shapechange and prepare before you opponent can act.

Infact, I think it could be argued that celerity is the most powerful spell in the game.
If you won initiative, you could do that without celerity.
If you didn't win initiative, you'd be flatfooted until the start of your first turn, and thus wouldn't be able to cast celerity.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-09, 07:42 PM
Hey question on gate, could you summon somthing with gate and use magic jar to push him out, then you have there powers and what not.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 07:43 PM
If you won initiative, you could do that without celerity.
If you didn't win initiative, you'd be flatfooted until the start of your first turn, and thus wouldn't be able to cast celerity.

Foresight.

Aquillion
2007-08-09, 07:51 PM
...even if you could, that is probably the worst idea I have ever heard EVER, because unlike a random outsider, which doesn't have 34 levels of caster plus epic spellcasting plus as much free time as it wants, a really freaking epic wizard (even if he has no protections against that sort of thing) will remember your face perfectly, will be able to find you across no matter how many planes, and willbe able to unmake you and probably your ancestors for three generations back too.

Isn't "Don't Mess With Epic Casters", like, Rule -1 of D&D?Technically...

You can order them to do anything that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level, and they'll do it. So you could order the wizard to fight for you, then have him kill himself at the end of it... killing yourself doesn't usually take too long, particularly not if you're a high-level wizard.

It probably isn't a very good idea, though...

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 07:55 PM
Oh, it's great. I mean, it's not like an epic character might plan for his death, contingent True Resurrections, all that jazz, right? And I'm sure he won't even be pissed that you had him hara-kiri himself.

Zeful
2007-08-09, 08:14 PM
Read a book about it.

Gate it in.

Summon it.

Ask you Druid Budy to summon it.

Go to a friendly guy of it's kind (greater teleport)

Start at LvL 7 and say you roamed the entire world with a freak circus gathering the most abscure & strange monsters around, travelled along with a horizon walker and had cable tv before you decided to become a wizard.

That's the druids: Only shape into something you know Fluff.With Know Planes, Arcana, nature & Religion well in the +30 you should know them.

Reading a book does not equate to familiarity unless it's a book that specifically denotes the creatures habitat, strengths and weaknesses, written by someone familiar with the creaute in question. And even then you'll still need real-life exeriance.

Of all the ways you listed to gain familiarity, only the circus really works, as you have to know enough about the creature to ensure not only it's survival but it's ability to perform.
Knowledge (nature) only provides one useful piece of knowledge about the creature in question and that's for a check of 10+HD. There are no rules on familiarity so it's up to the player to discuss with the DM what he's familiar with.

Time stop itself isn't powerful, but it can be used in conjuction with metamagic rods and other spells to destory a shapechanged or Gateing wizard quickly. You can easily set up an Widened Antimagic Field and ruin both's ability to adaqutely fight back.

This is, of course, my veiws on the subject.

Yahzi
2007-08-09, 10:30 PM
I mean, it's not like an epic character might plan for his death, contingent True Resurrections, all that jazz, right?
Isn't the best way for an epic-level character to prevent this kind of nonsense is to just kill every wizard who gets to 16th level?

Heck, that's probably the first Epic spell they craft: "Kill anybody who can ever catch up to me!"

:smallbiggrin:

You know... that's actually a pretty cool adventure hook. Party has to find out how to undo the Epic spell that prevents anyone from becoming a high level caster. And the Epic wizard long ago got bored and went off to some other reality, so the whole world is trapped in low magic. Yet magic items abound, since every 15th lvl caster has to make them like mad, or risk leveling and thus... dying.

I like it:

Level and die!

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-09, 10:59 PM
Hence why I had the phrases "IMO" and "it all depends on how picky the DM is".

Which then turns the game into a contest of:
"I cast shapechange"
"Shapechange is overpowered"
"I become a dragon"
"You aren't familiar with them, you become a 1 HD lizard."
"You're an ass."
"You're a munchkin"
And around and around we go.

Aximili
2007-08-09, 11:16 PM
Foresight.
Foresight and it's amazing 10min/lvl duration?

Solo
2007-08-09, 11:19 PM
Someone is going to find a way to persist it. I don't know how you could possibly do it, but someone probably has a way to persist it...

mudbunny
2007-08-09, 11:23 PM
Which then turns the game into a contest of:
"I cast shapechange"
"Shapechange is overpowered"
"I become a dragon"
"You aren't familiar with them, you become a 1 HD lizard."
"You're an ass."
"You're a munchkin"
And around and around we go.

Or, and I am just throwing this out there as a random idea, when the player(s) get high enough that they can shapechange, the DM, I don't know, talks to them and sets some limits??

I know, I know, silly, stupid idea.

Emperor Tippy
2007-08-09, 11:23 PM
Foresight and it's amazing 10min/lvl duration?

Level 20 and you extend it with your greater rod of extend. It lasts 400 minutes or 6 hours and 40 minutes. You should only be outside of your MMM for that long each day when adventuring anyways so it isn't a problem. And if you need more time you can always prepare another one.

Jack Mann
2007-08-09, 11:31 PM
Foresight and it's amazing 10min/lvl duration?

By the time you're casting timestop, you've got at least a CL of 17. It's probably 18, actually, with an orange ioun stone. 180 minutes is three hours. Extend it with a metamagic rod (well worth it), and you've got six hours up. It's not all day, but it's a fair enough time for your more hazardous travel.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-09, 11:37 PM
No, Uncanny Dodge just means you retain your Dex bonus to AC when flatfooted. You're still flatfooted.

...or is the Scout's different? I can't check Complete Adventurer at the moment.

Yep, Scout is different: he has Foresight's Never caught Flatfoot ability added to his uncanny Dodge. He is the only one though. All other uncanny dodges are copy pasted from rogue or Barbarian.

Aximili
2007-08-10, 12:23 AM
Level 20 and you extend it with your greater rod of extend. It lasts 400 minutes or 6 hours and 40 minutes. You should only be outside of your MMM for that long each day when adventuring anyways so it isn't a problem. And if you need more time you can always prepare another one.

Ok, granted.

Indon
2007-08-10, 02:43 AM
Or, and I am just throwing this out there as a random idea, when the player(s) get high enough that they can shapechange, the DM, I don't know, talks to them and sets some limits??

I know, I know, silly, stupid idea.

I imagine a Shapechange spell with a small list of known forms wouldn't be that bad.

In exchange for limiting the forms (and probably fixing them at that list, barring a small amount of addition) I'd allow the forms to be advanced in HD to match caster level.

greenknight
2007-08-10, 02:49 AM
Someone is going to find a way to persist it. I don't know how you could possibly do it, but someone probably has a way to persist it...

Easy. Foresight is a Personal range spell, and it's on the Cleric's spell list for certain domains. So, all you need is Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell. Problem is, Clerics don't get Celerity as a class spell (or even a Domain spell), so it's not as useful to them.

mudbunny
2007-08-10, 07:47 AM
I imagine a Shapechange spell with a small list of known forms wouldn't be that bad.

In exchange for limiting the forms (and probably fixing them at that list, barring a small amount of addition) I'd allow the forms to be advanced in HD to match caster level.

Shapechange will end up being only as broken as the DM lets it be broken. If the DM is letting the player flip through MMI-MMV, and various other splat books, then he is deserving of a hammergun to the head.

horseboy
2007-08-10, 12:35 PM
Paul Bunyan is the most powerful 9th-level spell!

Man, what did I start? :smallamused:

But no, Wish is a horrible idea. You can only use it to kill off the tarrasque. Any other time, it's subject to too much DM dickery. Blame Monkey's Paw if you need to, but only the most n00b of DM's will let one slide.

Likewise, Gate, or the summoning of any sentient creature is also a Bad Idea. Not only are you messing directly with the beings that cause wishes to be twisted, but they have their own lives. You ruin his anniversary and there WILL be Hell to pay. (Hmm, interesting motivation for a BBEG: Hey, I've got nothing against you guys, but to get her to shut up about the time you ruined her plans for our get away, I've just got to kill you.)

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-10, 01:53 PM
Man, what did I start? :smallamused:

But no, Wish is a horrible idea. You can only use it to kill off the tarrasque. Any other time, it's subject to too much DM dickery. Blame Monkey's Paw if you need to, but only the most n00b of DM's will let one slide.

Likewise, Gate, or the summoning of any sentient creature is also a Bad Idea. Not only are you messing directly with the beings that cause wishes to be twisted, but they have their own lives. You ruin his anniversary and there WILL be Hell to pay. (Hmm, interesting motivation for a BBEG: Hey, I've got nothing against you guys, but to get her to shut up about the time you ruined her plans for our get away, I've just got to kill you.)

Actually, "Monkey's Paw" wish fulfillment is the ultimate n00b DM move.

One of your players just spent 5000 xp and cast a 9th level spell; turning him into stone because he asked "I wish I was tougher," just to prove how sneaky you can be is really bad form.

Given, if you're making a wish from, say, an Efreeti and there is cause for the wish to be twisted; there is cause to turn it against you.

But, unless players are trying to be really greedy, it's generally good to fulfill the wish in at least a mostly positive way.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-10, 01:57 PM
Or, and I am just throwing this out there as a random idea, when the player(s) get high enough that they can shapechange, the DM, I don't know, talks to them and sets some limits??

I know, I know, silly, stupid idea.
I'm not suggesting what good DMing is; I'm exaggerating the problem of the suggestion to limit the spell by strictly enforcing the term "familiarity."

Polymorph and Shapechange are so inherently and irredemably overpowered that to set "reasonable limits," you have to choose really weak forms and arbitrarily limit them, because even one or two good forms breaks the spell wide open.

If the DM was reasonable, he'd either ban Polymorph/Shapechange altogether and either use the Giant's variant, or just dump changing altogether.

horseboy
2007-08-10, 02:30 PM
Actually, "Monkey's Paw" wish fulfillment is the ultimate n00b DM move.

One of your players just spent 5000 xp and cast a 9th level spell; turning him into stone because he asked "I wish I was tougher," just to prove how sneaky you can be is really bad form.

Given, if you're making a wish from, say, an Efreeti and there is cause for the wish to be twisted; there is cause to turn it against you.

But, unless players are trying to be really greedy, it's generally good to fulfill the wish in at least a mostly positive way.

Of course, being turned into a statue is weak. Turning you into the Tarrasque, however, and sending the new NPC on a rampage across the country side, that's way more fun. :smallbiggrin:

PowerWordSneeze
2007-08-10, 02:50 PM
Someone is going to find a way to persist it. I don't know how you could possibly do it, but someone probably has a way to persist it...

Well, you could pick up a level of Cleric and then get the Southern Magician (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Southern_Magician,Rac) feat and DMM Persist, and you're in business (if you have enough turns, but that's nothing a few nightsticks can't handle).

Jack Mann
2007-08-10, 03:06 PM
Incantatrix can do it, either with instant metamagic or with metamagic effect (assuming they've pumped spellcraft to the point where a DC 57 or 60 isn't too difficult).

Arbitrarity
2007-08-10, 03:15 PM
Lesee. 42 from ranks, int, basic synergy, skill foc (qualifier for Archmage). Now... Either use Moment of prescience, or get a custom item. Or some third option.

Aquillion
2007-08-10, 04:26 PM
Easy. Foresight is a Personal range spell, and it's on the Cleric's spell list for certain domains. So, all you need is Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell. Problem is, Clerics don't get Celerity as a class spell (or even a Domain spell), so it's not as useful to them.Get the Spell domain and use Greater Anyspell, maybe? I forget the spell levels involved, though, so I'm not sure Greater Anyspell would reach.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-08-10, 08:41 PM
One of your players just spent 5000 xp and cast a 9th level spell; turning him into stone because he asked "I wish I was tougher," just to prove how sneaky you can be is really bad form.


In that situation, shouldn't a good DM give him one of wish's defined abilities- the +1 innate bonus to an ability score, namely CON?

Anyway, by itself, Time stop is indeed not the most powerful 9th level spell- it's the fact that 1d4+1 well-chosen spells (or 5 for Maximizers) without being pressured by enemies and other impending dooms are better than a single 9th level spell. Especially if those other spells are also 9th leve. :smallbiggrin:

And while I'm at it, if you're going to persist time stop, make sure you have some way to escape!

Jack Mann
2007-08-10, 08:47 PM
In that situation, shouldn't a good DM give him one of wish's defined abilities- the +1 innate bonus to an ability score, namely CON?

Exactly. They redefined wish precisely to avoid jerkish behavior by DMs.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-10, 11:12 PM
Exactly. They redefined wish precisely to avoid jerkish behavior by DMs.

"I wish to recieve a gold piece"
"Someone throws one directly between your eyes, killing you instantly."
"...Do I get a saving throw"
"What's your DC?"

Belteshazzar
2007-08-10, 11:56 PM
I only allow shapechange into a creature the character has actually encountered and observed in action for some length of time. But then I also use spell failure/critical rules to prevent blatant spell spamming as well so I may seem harsh.

Irenaeus
2007-08-11, 04:52 AM
Of course, going strictly by RAW, I would think Wish is the most powerful spell because of the following line:

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast.
:smallbiggrin:

robotrobot2
2007-08-12, 01:26 PM
None of the spells are truly broken. Any of the spells named in this thread can really win more than one encounter. Also, they all have lower level spells to counter them:
Gate: Dimensional Lock
Time stop: Antimagic field
Shapechange: Greater Dispel Magic
Wish: Antimagic Field

PirateMonk
2007-08-12, 08:12 PM
None of the spells are truly broken. Any of the spells named in this thread can really win more than one encounter. Also, they all have lower level spells to counter them:
Gate: Dimensional Lock
Time stop: Antimagic field
Shapechange: Greater Dispel Magic
Wish: Antimagic Field

Yes, but all of those except Greater Dispel require them to be up before hand, and with Celerity this means they must be up 24/7.