Do you find Banishment (spell) to be overpowered?

[Hooligan]

Not much to add beyond the title.

I'm playing a wizard & it's one of my favorite combat uses for concentration, to the exclusion of many other spells even after hitting 9th level and opening up wall of force, animate objects, hold monster, etc.

I love that it calls for a charisma save, which hulking monsters usually are deficient in.

I also love that it gives the team 10 rounds to mop up the mooks and then circle the space the target reappears in, mulching the poor bastard upon its' reentry to our plane. Since all our players and the DM find spellcasting material tracking, particularly mats that aren't incredibly rare/expensive, to be obnoxious I don't have to worry about that limitation at our table.

How do you guys feel about this spell?

[Maxilian]

No, its a really useful spell, not that effective in boss fight (but when it works... IT FREAKING WORK!), at high lvl the spell becomes horrible, not because its useless (still really usefull) but painful when the DM goes like "Oh, guess who can cast that too?!!"

[MrStabby]

Banishment is powerful by pretty much any measure.

It scales well
It targets charisma saves

Importantly it fills a niche. Spells like fireball are at their best when facing hordes of easy enemies. Spells like hold monster are great against a single enemy. Banishment is at it's best when fighting a small number of enemies that fall between the other two. It rounds out a spell selection well.

Furthermore it can trivialise some encounters. Raw power is a feature. Using a level 5 spell slot to banish a couple of fire elementals is no joke at all.


I think there are not many spells that need to be toned down - at least not before level 7. This and wall of force are the only spells I can think of that I actually have much of a problem with.

[Kryx]

Yes, it is effectively a "save or lose the combat" type of spell.

Casting it on the big boss and then killing all his minions or casting it on the big dumb brute and then killing the rest drastically simplifies many combats.

I have changed it to the following (changed part in pink):

Banishment
You attempt to send one creature that you can see within range to another plane of existence. The target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or be banished.

If the target is native to the plane of existence you’re on, you banish the target to a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. The target remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. A creature who is native to the plane of existence you’re on can repeat the saving throw at the end of each turn, returning on a success.

If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the one you’re on, the target is banished with a faint popping noise, returning to its home plane. If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed, the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied. Otherwise, the target doesn’t return.

[Tanarii]

Would having the target(s) appear in a space of the DMs choosing make it more balanced, in your opinion?

Not the creature's choosing to its best advantage. The DM's choosing because quick resolution. And maybe narrative blah blah blah.

[MrStabby]

Would having the target(s) appear in a space of the DMs choosing make it more balanced, in your opinion?

Not the creature's choosing to its best advantage. The DM's choosing because quick resolution. And maybe narrative blah blah blah.

I have tried a few things - allowing repeat saves, randomising the time of return, removing the incapacitated condition. All of these help but it is still pretty damn powerful. The location of the return being uncertain will help a lot if you allow your players to ready actions to attack when the spell ends.

[JellyPooga]

Good spell? Yes. Overpowered? Only if your GM lets it be. It won't win a fight on its own; you still need the capability to defeat your foe without it, which makes it a placeholder at best. That's not to say "placeholding" a foe isn't without its use; it can be used to great effect, obviously. Not an aut-win button by a long shot, though.

[Gorgo]

One thought here is that by not worrying about the material component, your DM is making the spell much easier to use, and thus more powerful. If you have to track down something distasteful to each thing you want to cast banishment on, the spell becomes a lot harder to use.

[Kryx]

One thought here is that by not worrying about the material component, your DM is making the spell much easier to use, and thus more powerful. If you have to track down something distasteful to each thing you want to cast banishment on, the spell becomes a lot harder to use.
A material component without cost is replaced with a component pouch or spellcasting focus:

A character can use a component pouch or a speIlcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.

[LudicSavant]

It won't win a fight on its own; you still need the capability to defeat your foe without it

No, you don't. Like, at all.

The ability to defeat a split party and the ability to defeat a united party are very different levels of capability. Even against a solo creature, the ability to defeat someone with several rounds for positioning, buffing, preparation, a hastily constructed trap, and a slew of readied actions for when they reappear is not the same as being able to beat them under normal conditions.

[JellyPooga]

No, you don't. Like, at all.

The ability to defeat a split party and the ability to defeat a united party are very different levels of capability. Even against a solo creature, the ability to defeat someone with several rounds for positioning, buffing, preparation, a hastily constructed trap, and a slew of readied actions for when they reappear is not the same as being able to beat them under normal conditions.

I don't disagree. Banishment grants a significant advantage in many circumstances, but often there is only so much preparation possible and sometimes it's just not enough; under those circumstances, Banishment won't win the fight. Other times, splitting a group by removing a single opponent doesn't have that great an effect. That's why it's good, but by no means overpowered. As significant as the advantage is, the resource cost, which is not small, is about right.

[Kryx]

Other times, splitting a group by removing a single opponent doesn't have that great an effect.
Removing even 1 opponent significantly changes the difficulty of every counter. See the rules presented in the DMG or use an online calculator for a deadly encounter and then remove even a middle tier enemy and the difficulty becomes significantly easier.

Allowing a save every turn is necessary at minimum imo. See Hold Person or Hold Monster for example.

[Coranhann]

My players haven't reach 7th level yet, but I have two rules for this spell:

1 - And that's a general rule : If they use it, I use it. And will use it viciously.

2 - The only thing I don't like about that spell is the ... predictability of it. So I intend to make it last for 2D4+2 turns, rolled by the DM (Mini is 4, not that low. Max is 10, intended duration. Overall is somewhere around 7 without any means of knowing how long it last). Plus, the target might (or might not) spread a bit when it comes back.

Now, this being said. I wouldn't say that it's too powerfull. BUT rule 1 forces me to aknowledge one thing:

Being out of a fight for 10 turns is not fun for a player as he has nothing to do. That's a bad gaming experience.

I have no clue how to fix that. Cause Banishment is clearly ridiculous if it's left to be a tool only the players can use.

[Sigreid]

I think a lot of this discussion is overlooking that banishment lasts for 1 minute, or until someone rings the caster's bell sufficiently to break concentration.

[MrStabby]

I think a lot of this discussion is overlooking that banishment lasts for 1 minute, or until someone rings the caster's bell sufficiently to break concentration.

Or is a permanent effect with no return. Depends on the target.

If you play a game with no angels, elementals, fiends, fey or other extraplanar beings then it is very powerful. If you play vs the broader set of enemies that include extraplanar enemies then it becomes obscene.

[JellyPooga]

Removing even 1 opponent significantly changes the difficulty of every counter. See the rules presented in the DMG or use an online calculator for a deadly encounter and then remove even a middle tier enemy and the difficulty becomes significantly easier.

Allowing a save every turn is necessary at minimum imo. See Hold Person or Hold Monster for example.

Removing one enemy can be significant in combats against small groups or in fights where there's a big boss with minions, sure, but in fights against larger groups (which can easily be just as challenging), removing one foe will change little. That's Banishments weakness; it only affects one guy and while it can change the tide of a battle, it won't always be the spell that wins the fight. Even when it does, you still need to actually address the problem of dealing with the target once the spell wears off (as reduced a problem as it might be), let alone the problem of (in many cases) having to engage enemies while your concentration is occupied and being (at least) a 4th level spell slot down.

As I've said already, I don't dispute that it's a good spell, but it isn't a "win every fight" button by any stretch of the imagination.

[Sigreid]

Or is a permanent effect with no return. Depends on the target.

If you play a game with no angels, elementals, fiends, fey or other extraplanar beings then it is very powerful. If you play vs the broader set of enemies that include extraplanar enemies then it becomes obscene.

Yes, but the tone I was getting from the rest of the discussion in the thread was that the gripe was mostly about non-extra planar beings being taken out of the fight until they could be dealt with individually.

[Kryx]

I think a lot of this discussion is overlooking that banishment lasts for 1 minute, or until someone rings the caster's bell sufficiently to break concentration.
Have you seen the Hold Person or Hold Monster spells? The same is true for them and pretty much every good crowd control spell in the game. It's mention has no bearing on the balance of Banishment in comparison to those spells or much on the game in general as nearly all ongoing spells follow that model.


I don't dispute that it's a good spell, but it isn't a "win every fight" button by any stretch of the imagination.
In my experience it has been exactly that - a spell that completely trivializes any encounter where it succeeds. 1 minute is plenty of time to mop up the now significantly easier encounter while waiting for the big bad to get back. Reducing that based on a saving throw follows the model of nearly every other spell in the game, allowing for it to potentially not persist for the whole combat.

[JellyPooga]

In my experience it has been exactly that - a spell that completely trivializes any encounter where it succeeds. 1 minute is plenty of time to mop up the now significantly easier encounter while waiting for the big bad to get back. Reducing that based on a saving throw follows the model of nearly every other spell in the game, allowing for it to potentially not persist for the whole combat.

I guess it depends on what sort of encounters you normally go up against. If you usually face off against roughly equal numbers or only slightly outnumbered, then yeah, Banishment will be that win-button. If you face off against a mix of encounters, including those where you're outnumbered 2:1 or higher, or against summoners that can create those odds, you simply won't get those results from Banishment. That's been my experience, anyway.

[Sigreid]

[QUOTE=Kryx;22251545]Have you seen the Hold Person or Hold Monster spells? The same is true for them and pretty much every good crowd control spell in the game. It's mention has no bearing on the balance of Banishment in comparison to those spells or much on the game in general as nearly all ongoing spells follow that model.

But Hold Person, Hold Monster and most of the others leave the controlled mob or mobs vulnerable to at least one attack against an incapacitated opponent. With Banish, it's true you don't have to worry about the one mob, but you also don't get the free one or more shot to ring his bell with some serious advantage.

[djreynolds]

My players haven't reach 7th level yet, but I have two rules for this spell:

1 - And that's a general rule : If they use it, I use it. And will use it viciously.
.

That's AWESOME.

It is a strong spell. And the save is that odd charisma roll.

Does charisma encapsulate luck?

IMO, it can be a game changer. Could banishment be considered cheesy at times. Was Vega's leg sweep in Street fighter cheesy?

On the other hand, you're not harmed by it.

I enjoy the ingenuity of players, I've seen it used as a poor man's crazy last ditch get out of jail and hell and teleport me anywhere but here. Could be dry land or the open ocean?

[Kryx]

[But Hold Person, Hold Monster and most of the others leave the controlled mob or mobs vulnerable to at least one attack against an incapacitated opponent. With Banish, it's true you don't have to worry about the one mob, but you also don't get the free one or more shot to ring his bell with some serious advantage.
You also don't have to worry about that mob for 1 minute or until they save, same as hold person.

Hold person is just as strong - allows for crazy Nova rounds as well.
They are different spells for different purposes: burst or avoid.

[Kryx]

If you face off against a mix of encounters, including those where you're outnumbered 2:1 or higher, or against summoners that can create those odds, you simply won't get those results from Banishment. That's been my experience, anyway.
And fireball isn't great against solo enemies... That seems like a silly argument. Spells have their roles and in it's role banishment is an OP spell on my experience.

[LudicSavant]

it isn't a "win every fight" button by any stretch of the imagination.

That's Banishments weakness; it only affects one guy and while it can change the tide of a battle, it won't always be the spell that wins the fight.

Something doesn't need to solve literally every encounter to be problematic. That's like saying that Fireball's 'weakness' is that it only lights groups of people on fire, rather than, say, making you young again so that old age won't kill you. Omnipotence is not a prerequisite for being overpowered.

[Hooligan]

And fireball isn't great against solo enemies... That seems like a silly argument. Spells have their roles and in it's role banishment is an OP spell on my experience.

I'd strongly agree if I didn't like it so much :)

I play at a table where polymorph is banned and the other 4th level spells I value are mostly out of combat things like arcane eye. There are only 3 players in the party and the DM (well and us too I suppose) favors a punishing level of difficulty to his encounters; that coupled with the gritty rest variant leaves us barely keeping our heads above water in spite of banishment. It definitely can and does trivialize some fights, but in my experience that probably only happens 10% of the time I use it.

People seem to have interesting ways of attenuating its potency and I like most of them, with the exception of enforcing the material components (boring as hell) and using it liberally against the party (players getting to do nothing is also boring).

[JellyPooga]

And fireball isn't great against solo enemies... That seems like a silly argument. Spells have their roles and in it's role banishment is an OP spell on my experience.

By the same argument, Fireball is OP because it trivialises many mook fights. Of course Banishment is good for what it's good for; Knock is great for opening doors, but no-one would call it OP for trivialising locked doors.

[Saeviomage]

I personally don't understand why it even works on people native to the plane you are on. Or, for that matter, why it incapacitates them. That, to me, is the crux of the problem: the spell has an extra ability that's been tacked on, which doesn't really fit the spell at all, and it's implications have not been thought through.

[Sigreid]

You also don't have to worry about that mob for 1 minute or until they save, same as hold person.

Hold person is just as strong - allows for crazy Nova rounds as well.
They are different spells for different purposes: burst or avoid.

During which time they are not harmed, have time to figure out what they are going to do and possibly heal.

Since I don't agree there's a problem, I'll bow out of this conversation unless it comes up at my table.

[Rockphed]

I personally don't understand why it even works on people native to the plane you are on. Or, for that matter, why it incapacitates them. That, to me, is the crux of the problem: the spell has an extra ability that's been tacked on, which doesn't really fit the spell at all, and it's implications have not been thought through.

I think the description given above should be changed as follows:

If the target fails their save, they spend 10 rounds traveling to their home plane. During this travel, they do not experience time (though they are vaguely aware that it has passed. If the spell ends before 1 minute passes, the target reappears where it left. A creature banished from its home plane likewise reappears where it left.

[Kane0]

I think it's so good because it pulls two functions: 'Improved Hold Person' and 'Remove Extraplanar Creature'. The latter is the niche it appears to be designed to fill where the former is itself very useful and IMO what pushes it from being a good spell choice to an almost mandatory one.

So the most appropriate thing to do in my mind would be to allow a new save at the end of each turn ALA Hold Person if you are subject to banishment while already on your home plane.
If that doesn't cut it for you then a random duration (2d4+2 rounds sounds good) and/or random return location are also good changes that don't overly impact the spells usefulness.

[Laserlight]

Add to the Evil Overlord List : I will give a standing order to my minions that if I get Banished, they should immediately concentrate their attacks on the Banisher. Sooner or later they'll break his concentration; if they kill him in the process, so much the better.

[Rockphed]

Add to the Evil Overlord List : I will give a standing order to my minions that if I get Banished, they should immediately concentrate their attacks on the Banisher. Sooner or later they'll break his concentration; if they kill him in the process, so much the better.

What happens if the Banisher gets banished before the 10 rounds are up?

[Kryx]

Add to the Evil Overlord List : I will give a standing order to my minions that if I get Banished, they should immediately concentrate their attacks on the Banisher.
Monsters being aware of all spells is too much for my taste, though creatures focusing (or fearing) casters when powerful things happen in general would be a learned approach.

=========

Thanks for the recommendations on appearing in a different spot - I'll grab that idea. :)

[Slayn82]

What happens if the Banisher gets banished before the 10 rounds are up?

The Banisher becomes Banished, and thus, incapacitated, losing his own concentration, making his own targets come back.

Banishment in 5e was fused with the Shadow Well spell. It's powerful, but so is resilient sphere (vs single target) or a well placed Web or Fear or Wall of Stone (against mooks). Or Hypnotic Pattern used by a Bard with an Instrument of Bards (Wis save with disadvantage) against anything.

The DM can counter the party banishment spell in many ways - a sneak attack against the caster forcing a high DC on concentration check, sudden reinforcements on the enemy side, putting the Big Bad under a Tiny Hut spell attacking with a bow while his minions beat and wear down the party, or a hidden trap, placed near the expected point of entry of the pcs - dropping a giant stone on their heads or releasing a large wave of zombies behind them. Anything to recover the sense of pressure on the party.

[Sigreid]

The Banisher becomes Banished, and thus, incapacitated, losing his own concentration, making his own targets come back.



I disagree with this. Per the spell description the banished entity is not incapacitated or harmed in any way. They are just somewhere else. As described, they are actually quite safe.

[Armored Walrus]

If the target is native to the plane of existence you’re on, you banish the target to a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. PHB page 217

[Kryx]

sudden reinforcements on the enemy side.
Many people consider this type of fuding to be cheating - there was a recent thread about fudging either here or on EnWorld.

If you have to suddenly add more enemies to the other side because of a spell then that spell isn't balanced.

[Laserlight]

Monsters being aware of all spells is too much for my taste, though creatures focusing (or fearing) casters when powerful things happen in general would be a learned approach.

If they know that Banish exists, I don't think that's too much. When Heruzar the Mad waves his staff at the CEO and chants, and the CEO disappears, it's not too much of a stretch to say "The employees assume it was a Banish and mass fire on Heruzar."

Of course, sometimes it is an I-Win button, and that's fun for the players. As a DM, I'm okay with that.

One of our funniest sessions was when the players stumbled across a boss, Banished him, and then scrambled to get out of the sinking ship before the 60 seconds ran out.

And sometimes you just say "Legendary Resistance. Next?"

[Kryx]

If they know that Banish exists, I don't think that's too much.
If they have knowledge of Arcana, sure. The vast majority of monsters in the Monster Manual and Volo's do not have Arcana.

But the general rule of thumb "kill the spellcaster if something crazy happens" is reasonable.

[Sigreid]

If the target is native to the plane of existence you’re on, you banish the target to a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. PHB page 217

All right, but incapacitated says you can't take actions or reactions. I can't find anything that says you lose concentration.

If I were going to nerf banishment, I'd take away the incapacitated and let the victim prepare while he's on ice.

[Millstone85]

All right, but incapacitated says you can't take actions or reactions. I can't find anything that says you lose concentration.The rules on the incapacitated condition have nothing to say about concentration, but the rules on concentration do tell us that:
You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.

[Sigreid]

The rules on the incapacitated condition have nothing to say about concentration, but the rules on concentration do tell us that:

Ah, I couldn't find that in the Fantasy Grounds PHB. Still learning my way around it. Thanks.

[SharkForce]

If you play a game with no angels, elementals, fiends, fey or other extraplanar beings then it is very powerful. If you play vs the broader set of enemies that include extraplanar enemies then it becomes obscene.

this part can sometimes be relatively easy to solve.

"house rule: elementals upon death drop materials to make 5 regular arrows deal +1d4 fire/cold/electric/blunt damage" and suddenly greed makes banishment something you do only if needed :P
"house rule: the last drops of a fiend's blood are poisonous, and can be used to coat weapons with a poison that deals 2d6 poison damage and causes the poisoned condition, save for half damage and no poisoned condition, DC 11 + the fiend's proficiency bonus".
"house rule: fey sometimes carry simple charms that create various minor magical effects"

(you should probably also attach some GP value to these things).

and even funnier, they may never even *use* those things, because they're perpetually "saving them for the right moment" until they forget they even have them :P

[LudicSavant]

Add to the Evil Overlord List : I will give a standing order to my minions that if I get Banished, they should immediately concentrate their attacks on the Banisher. Sooner or later they'll break his concentration; if they kill him in the process, so much the better.

The issue with this suggestion isn't so much Kryx's "enemies might not know what spells you'll use" idea. Of course the Evil Overlord knows about and plans for high threat spells, that's a non-issue IMHO.

The real issue is that the strategy Laserlight is suggesting isn't as likely to work in practice as one might assume. Breaking a well-built Wizard's concentration is not a terribly easy thing to do before the enemy's strength is cut in half (or more) by the banishment of the Evil Overlord. Against a party of veteran players, the banisher is going to be one of the hardest targets for your stormtroopers to get to, and well-built wizards tend to have high Concentration, AC, and kiting / avoidance abilities... on top of being able to strike from distant and defensible positions and being actively defended by the their team's tanks/controllers/healers, especially when they have a crucial spell running.

You're basically asking your minions to first bypass all of the tanks, get to the back line, hit the wizard through her magical defenses and trickery, her AC, and then break her concentration with their minion damage, which may very well knock out the wizard's concentration only on a double natural 1, all after the encounter's CR has been cut in half or more. While it's possible, the typical result is that the average minions are going to get mopped up.

[Randomthom]

I would change the spell to give advantage on the save to creatures native to the plane they are being banished from. I'd probably also consider the 2d4+2 duration (rolled by the banished player or DM for monsters).

Therefore, trying to banish a human from the prime material plane would incur a save with advantage but banishing a fire elemental would not.

Likewise, if the players are in the Abyss and a Demon casts Banishment on them, the player makes the save normally but the Demons would save with advantage if the players cast it on the Demons.