True Sorcery: Any thoughts

[CowardlyPaladin]

I've heard a few of my players recommend this system, but I have never gotten access towards this system, has anybody heard of it? Evidently it was from the Black Company RPG system first. If so, my questions are


1) Does the system work?

2) what does does it offer that the standard D&D game doesn't

3) Could this system work in the same game as the standard 3E D&D magic systems, like people who use True Sorcery are like another type of caster like Warlock or Binder?

4) Does this relate to the TrueD20 system used in systems like Blue Rose? Or is that something entirely different?

Also didn't Dragonlance's Primal Sorcery use a similar system to this or am I imagining it?


I'm curious about how this works.

[arkangel111]

Looks similar to spheres of power. You should check that out. It's pf but the creators frequent this board so there is a lot more support than you'll find for an obscure 3.x source.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Looks similar to spheres of power. You should check that out. It's pf but the creators frequent this board so there is a lot more support than you'll find for an obscure 3.x source.

I've never heard of that, what is it exactly?

[Firest Kathon]

Spheres of Power is an alternate magic system for Pathfinder, but should work with 3.5 as well. Have a wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/).

[Sagetim]

I have read these rules, but have not had the chance to try and use them. In The Black Company, a campaign setting rulebook, you have a mixture of feats and class features that operate something like:

instead of spells, you have talents, which are like scaled down epic spell seeds from the epic player's handbook. So there's a seed for charm, sleep, energy damage, disintigration and so on. Discrete effects that have a minimum dc associated with them, a minimum effect, and you can raise the dc to raise the effect and modify it depending on the talent involved.

Talents are split between multiple levels, with access generally granted by having a certain Magnitude (capital M). Your Magnitude goes, realistically, from 0 to 3. There are two ways to get Magnitude 4: hit level 50 (yes, level 50, in a dnd game) and take the necessary epic level feats to do it by dint of your skill and expertise. Or hit magnitude 3 (a much more reasonable task of something like level 16 in the caster class) and then get a rather horrifying template applied to you which involves being tortured with magic and then being beholden to the person who did it to you, because if they die (or anyone higher up than them on the pyramid scheme) you lose the template and I think maybe explode or something for good measure.

Anyway, you're looking at magnitude 0 to 3 as a reasonable player. Each rank of magnitude (that is, 1 to 3) gives you a larger bonus to your make the magic happen skill (use magic? mage lore? mageology? whatever). So going up in magnitude serves two purposes: it gives you a dramatic increase in the power of the spells you can regularly utilize, and it opens up new talents to pick from.

From the crunch side, a level 1 wizard is going to do a better job of taking on regular dnd combat than the magic user class in the book. This is because replicating effects like Sleep and Grease can be pretty difficult on the DC chart for the talents, whereas the regular vancian caster may get fewer spells per day, but with reliable effects and results. If you tried to run this character as a regular adventurer, you would probably have a lot of issues at low level, fewer issues at mid level, and then....you still wouldn't have things like Wish. I can't remember if casting in The Black Company makes you eat subdual damage or something, or if it just lets you cast as much as you want and then points and laughs if you botch a skill check. In either case, you have more 'spells per day' potential than a regular dnd wizard, but your power level isn't going to be nearly the same.

For one thing, the energy talent takes a while to get, and kind of sucks. It's not really doing impressive damage, as compared to spells that a wizard, sorcerer, or even cleric could get away with at low to mid level. The magic system in The Black Company definitely feels like it was built to fit the feel of the books it was based on, hacking apart dnd to do so, instead of just taking dnd and plastering a campaign setting over regular 3.5 rules.

Edit: After perusing some pages of the True Sorcery book, I was reminded that the system also involves something called Spell Energy, a fancy but limited use resource. You need at least 1 point to cast spells, but you don't have the expend it to cast a spell. Instead, you can expend a point to get +10 to your Spellcraft check when casting, and probably to do some other things, but that's the basic use. Furthermore, casting does kick you in the shins with subdual damage, but you have a decent hit die, and with a decent con, you can get more spells out per day than a similarly low level wizard (though you might need to rest a bit to recover the subdual damage).

The True Sorcery book also has the class grant you Magnitude 4 at level 20, so that's a rather nice capstone (especially in conjunction with one of the feats, which only requires First Magnitude, that slows down aging based on your magnitude. At Fourth, you stop aging entirely and only accrue benefits for old age).

Casting times are an operation of your Spellcraft modifier minus the dc, but if you're casting much higher than your modifier, then you take more than a standard action to cast. Which can get pretty depressing, since the energy one starts at 1d4 damage, and costs a +5 to upgrade the damage die, and +5 to add a die, per die. And it starts at dc 15. So you need to be able to hit a spellcraft of, say, 45 for it to do 5d6 damage. Then you'll need to crank the dc up higher to get it to have an area of effect of 20ft burst. With a modifier of +5 per 5ft radius of a burst or spread, you're now looking at a dc 65 on Spellcraft....just to cast a basic fireball that a level 5 wizard can throw around up to twice per day, minimum.

Now, the Magnitudes add a lot to your modifier, but they're ranging from +4 at First Magnitude to +8 at Second, +16 at Third, and +32 at Fourth. And those things are spread out to 5, 10, 15, and 20 in the class, so you're probably never going to cast what 3.5 considers a basic fireball until you're over level 10, probably over 15. Not unless you're using extended action casting and blowing one (or more) spell points. And since your cap on how many spell points you can blow on a single casting is based on your Magnitude, you are kind of doubly never casting a fireball with the ease of a 5th level wizard at that level.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I never read the epic level handbook because it doesn't really apply to my games and I'm told it is massively broken, how do spell seed works?

And how does True Sorcery measure up to standard D&D in terms of balance ? or sphere of balance for that matter

[thorr-kan]

True Sorcery is based on the Black Company Campaign Setting's (BCCS) magic system. The two are very similar but not exactly the same. Sagetim seems to have hit most of the high points.

True Sorcery gives some recommendations for use in conjunction w/3.5, but recommends replacing standard spellcasting with True Sorcery.

It was written to mirror BCCS specifically, but it adapts to any similar setting and a lot of urban fantasy as well. I can see it being used for the Black Company, Garrett PI, The Dresden Files, or anything similar.

However, it does seem to require a lot of bookkeeping and number crunching by both DM and player. It's not for newbies nor the faint of heart.

Full disclosure: I love this system. I would love to run it. I have read it extensively, but have not actually played it.

[CowardlyPaladin]

True Sorcery is based on the Black Company Campaign Setting's (BCCS) magic system. The two are very similar but not exactly the same. Sagetim seems to have hit most of the high points.

True Sorcery gives some recommendations for use in conjunction w/3.5, but recommends replacing standard spellcasting with True Sorcery.

It was written to mirror BCCS specifically, but it adapts to any similar setting and a lot of urban fantasy as well. I can see it being used for the Black Company, Garrett PI, The Dresden Files, or anything similar.

However, it does seem to require a lot of bookkeeping and number crunching by both DM and player. It's not for newbies nor the faint of heart.

Full disclosure: I love this system. I would love to run it. I have read it extensively, but have not actually played it.

Oh sweet, you are just the man I am looking for, cause I have a few questions for you

1) Walk me through a True Sorcerer participating in an adventure encounter, the way that a Wizard might. Sagetim explained in detail how the rules work but sadly I am...incredibly stupid so I am having trouble understanding exactly how it works
2) Why do you prefer it to the Vatican system
3) I prefer having multiple magic systems in a game, are their any problems with having Wizards and True Sorcerers hanging out together in a party? What does that do for balance?

[thorr-kan]

Oh sweet, you are just the man I am looking for, cause I have a few questions for you

1) Walk me through a True Sorcerer participating in an adventure encounter, the way that a Wizard might. Sagetim explained in detail how the rules work but sadly I am...incredibly stupid so I am having trouble understanding exactly how it works
2) Why do you prefer it to the Vatican system
3) I prefer having multiple magic systems in a game, are their any problems with having Wizards and True Sorcerers hanging out together in a party? What does that do for balance?
Like I said, never played it, so I can't really say how it works.

I like it from a theory standpoint because it reads like the fantasy novels I like.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I have read these rules, but have not had the chance to try and use them. In The Black Company, a campaign setting rulebook, you have a mixture of feats and class features that operate something like:

instead of spells, you have talents, which are like scaled down epic spell seeds from the epic player's handbook. So there's a seed for charm, sleep, energy damage, disintigration and so on. Discrete effects that have a minimum dc associated with them, a minimum effect, and you can raise the dc to raise the effect and modify it depending on the talent involved.

Talents are split between multiple levels, with access generally granted by having a certain Magnitude (capital M). Your Magnitude goes, realistically, from 0 to 3. There are two ways to get Magnitude 4: hit level 50 (yes, level 50, in a dnd game) and take the necessary epic level feats to do it by dint of your skill and expertise. Or hit magnitude 3 (a much more reasonable task of something like level 16 in the caster class) and then get a rather horrifying template applied to you which involves being tortured with magic and then being beholden to the person who did it to you, because if they die (or anyone higher up than them on the pyramid scheme) you lose the template and I think maybe explode or something for good measure.

Anyway, you're looking at magnitude 0 to 3 as a reasonable player. Each rank of magnitude (that is, 1 to 3) gives you a larger bonus to your make the magic happen skill (use magic? mage lore? mageology? whatever). So going up in magnitude serves two purposes: it gives you a dramatic increase in the power of the spells you can regularly utilize, and it opens up new talents to pick from.

From the crunch side, a level 1 wizard is going to do a better job of taking on regular dnd combat than the magic user class in the book. This is because replicating effects like Sleep and Grease can be pretty difficult on the DC chart for the talents, whereas the regular vancian caster may get fewer spells per day, but with reliable effects and results. If you tried to run this character as a regular adventurer, you would probably have a lot of issues at low level, fewer issues at mid level, and then....you still wouldn't have things like Wish. I can't remember if casting in The Black Company makes you eat subdual damage or something, or if it just lets you cast as much as you want and then points and laughs if you botch a skill check. In either case, you have more 'spells per day' potential than a regular dnd wizard, but your power level isn't going to be nearly the same.

For one thing, the energy talent takes a while to get, and kind of sucks. It's not really doing impressive damage, as compared to spells that a wizard, sorcerer, or even cleric could get away with at low to mid level. The magic system in The Black Company definitely feels like it was built to fit the feel of the books it was based on, hacking apart dnd to do so, instead of just taking dnd and plastering a campaign setting over regular 3.5 rules.

Edit: After perusing some pages of the True Sorcery book, I was reminded that the system also involves something called Spell Energy, a fancy but limited use resource. You need at least 1 point to cast spells, but you don't have the expend it to cast a spell. Instead, you can expend a point to get +10 to your Spellcraft check when casting, and probably to do some other things, but that's the basic use. Furthermore, casting does kick you in the shins with subdual damage, but you have a decent hit die, and with a decent con, you can get more spells out per day than a similarly low level wizard (though you might need to rest a bit to recover the subdual damage).

The True Sorcery book also has the class grant you Magnitude 4 at level 20, so that's a rather nice capstone (especially in conjunction with one of the feats, which only requires First Magnitude, that slows down aging based on your magnitude. At Fourth, you stop aging entirely and only accrue benefits for old age).

Casting times are an operation of your Spellcraft modifier minus the dc, but if you're casting much higher than your modifier, then you take more than a standard action to cast. Which can get pretty depressing, since the energy one starts at 1d4 damage, and costs a +5 to upgrade the damage die, and +5 to add a die, per die. And it starts at dc 15. So you need to be able to hit a spellcraft of, say, 45 for it to do 5d6 damage. Then you'll need to crank the dc up higher to get it to have an area of effect of 20ft burst. With a modifier of +5 per 5ft radius of a burst or spread, you're now looking at a dc 65 on Spellcraft....just to cast a basic fireball that a level 5 wizard can throw around up to twice per day, minimum.

Now, the Magnitudes add a lot to your modifier, but they're ranging from +4 at First Magnitude to +8 at Second, +16 at Third, and +32 at Fourth. And those things are spread out to 5, 10, 15, and 20 in the class, so you're probably never going to cast what 3.5 considers a basic fireball until you're over level 10, probably over 15. Not unless you're using extended action casting and blowing one (or more) spell points. And since your cap on how many spell points you can blow on a single casting is based on your Magnitude, you are kind of doubly never casting a fireball with the ease of a 5th level wizard at that level.


Sadly I am deeply stupid, could you explain that in a more concrete way? Like how would the day to day play experience of a True Sorcerer differ from that of a wizard or normal sorcerer?

[CowardlyPaladin]

Anyone else familiar with this system? Any thoughts

[137beth]

Okay, since a lot of people are referring to a system but no one has linked to it, lemme just drop a link here (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/20498/True-Sorcery?term=true+sorcery&test_epoch=0&it=1) to where you can buy the True Sorcery book.

Unfortunately, I have not used it or read it in detail, so that's about all I can contribute to this thread.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Okay, since a lot of people are referring to a system but no one has linked to it, lemme just drop a link here (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/20498/True-Sorcery?term=true+sorcery&test_epoch=0&it=1) to where you can buy the True Sorcery book.

Unfortunately, I have not used it or read it in detail, so that's about all I can contribute to this thread.

Thanks, and I think you can find a free version of the system online just by googling it.

THe reason why I am curious is I want to check out new magic systems and I am not sure about the balance.

[Sagetim]

Well, the balance that it comes out to is that it's on average weaker than vancian casting, and theoretically allows for more spells per day.

Worth mentioning is how Drain works as a limit on the True Sorcerer's spellcasting. Instead of having discreet spells per day, they take a baseline of 1d8 subdual damage per spell they cast. If they modify the spell they cast (like, raising the dice of damage it deals, for example) then instead of just 1d8, they now pay 1d8 + 1 per 5 dc that the spell requires to complete. So, if you go from Create Energy (dc 15 with 1d4 damage) to Create Energy (dc 20, the extra five to increase your damage die to 1d6) then you are going from taking 1d8 subdual to 1d8+4. Since your base hit die is only a d6, it means that casting a spell can knock you out from the effort of doing so, be it your first spell of the day, or whatever.

Recovering from subdual damage requires either rest, or an influx of healing. Resting for at least an hour nets you 1 subdual damage healed per character level per hour, while any healing (like from cure light wounds) just straight up heals 1 subdual damage for every point of healing it heals (in addition to). So, for example, if you have a minor booboo of 1 damage out of your 6 hp, but massive fatigue in the form of 4 subdual damage, a cure light wounds that heals 4 damage would heal the one boo boo, and also heal the 4 subdual damage.

Spell Energy plays into this by acting as a damage reduction against drain (and only drain, it doesn't help you against regular damage or subdual damage from being slapped repeatedly). Since you start at Student of Magic level by taking your first level of True Sorcerer, you have 1+con mod spell energy as a baseline.

Additionally worth noting is that they have a suggested variant rule to taking subdual damage: a Casting Buffer. It starts as equal to your concentration modifier, and is tracked seperate from hp. Instead of taking subdual damage when you cast, the damage you would have taken is marked off as point spent out of your Casting Buffer. It goes up by 1d8 every caster level after first. It also has the drawback of inflicting fatigue on you if you drop below half, or exhausted if you drop to 0 Casting Buffer. The Casting Buffer replenishes at a rate of 1 per caster level per hour (so 1 per hour at level 1, 5 per hour at level 5, etc). This definitely works better in an actual dnd game, because getting slapped around happens (even if you don't want it to happen to you), so casting out of your already limited hp pool is pretty dangerous.

In either case, the minimum cost to cast a spell is 1, even if you have enough spell energy to bring the drain down to 0 (say you cast a baseline afflict, roll your 1d8, and get a 2. If you have 3 spell energy, that would be -1, but the minimum is 1, so you still take 1 subdual damage or 1 off your Casting Buffer).

Only while writing this post and referencing the pdf did I notice that the book calls it's baseclass The Spellcaster, and right there at the start it mentions an optional rule for letting a character use Charisma for Spellcraft (in fact, it lets you pick a casting stat and use that one for spellcraft, from int, wis or cha). This makes the requirements for playing the class somewhat less MAD, since you can just key your spellcraft to charisma and have a better ability modifier without as much catering to various ability scores.

By way of comparison, let's look at True Sorcerer and Sorcerer, at level 1, 5, and 10.

At level 1, the True Sorcerer has access to talent options like Force, Dispel, Afflict, Charm, Enchant, and so on. But they only get one of those immediately. Talent can be picked as a feat, and they do get a bonus feat at level 1 for their class, so you Could spend up to 3 feats at level 1 to start with 4 talents, immediately pulling ahead in the versatility game. By comparison, the Sorcerer has some cantrips (which you take as skills instead) and two first level spells known. They can't blow feats to get more spells known at level 1 for any reasonable rate (except maybe precocious apprentice, to get a 1/day second level spell).

The Sorcerer has 3 first level spells per day, while the True Sorcerer has a d6 hp, some amount of spell energy, and is probably busy praying that they don't knock themselves out when they cast a spell. If we're operating off the Elite Array, The Sorcerer would have something like 15 charisma, and probably 14 dex, 13 con, etc etc. Meanwhile, the True Sorcerer is going to want to load up on constitution to start with, so putting the 14 in there and 15 into charisma is not a bad plan (it nets them a total of 3 spell energy at level 1, very handy). With 3 spell energy as a point of comparison, (and also 8 hp, from the 1d6+2), we can figure that the True Sorcerer is no longer in danger of knocking themselves out from casting a single spell. Well, a single unmodified spell at least.

So we're going to do a comparison of what kinds of spells they might sling at level 1: Sleep Vs Enchant, Magic missile vs Force, Shield vs Force.

Sleep nets you up to 4 hit dice of monsters in a 10ft radius at medium range (100ft). It's one of the earliest save or dies you can employ, because, with the right aiming you can end an encounter with this spell before it begins, and slit the throats of your enemies while they slumber (or tie them up, I suppose).

Enchant has to be modified to put anyone to sleep, it's baseline effect is to impose a -2 on some stuff. The example Sleep provided by the book is DC 24 (for your spellcraft check*), but it is Touch range, only affects One target, and only affects a target of up to 3 hit dice. So you can't really use it to end an encounter from a safe distance, but if you're already close, you can maybe stop the ogre from beating you to death, assuming he didn't when you were casting this spell next to him. You are also incurring at a 1d8+1 subdual damage when you cast it (dc 24/5, rounded down, is 4. 1d8-3+4= 1d8+1). This means you can knock yourself out casting this spell at level 1.

Sorcerer wins at Sleep at level 1. It's more effective and you can throw it up to 3 times a day without risk of koing yourself and without taking multiple full round actions to get there.


Magic Missile Vs Force: Magic Missile is pretty basic. 1d4+1 damage, no miss, no muss, medium range. It's crap damage, but it will sure seem better when you see the Force option.

Force Hammer (one of the Force talent's options) deals 1d4 Subdual Force damage. Which means you can never kill anyone with it without modification. If you use it as is, it has a 10ft range, is a touch attack, and has a dc of 10. To get it to do lethal damage requires bumping the dc up to 30 (raise dc by +20 for lethal). That means you would take 1d8+3 subdual damage, to do 1d4 lethal damage from up to 10 feet away, as a verbal spell that eats multiple rounds of actions. And by the way, you're not hitting that dc. Even if you add verbal components for a +5 to your spellcraft check, you've got to get a 14 or better on the roll, And you're at serious risk of knocking yourself out to cast the spell.

Magic Missile wins at level 1.

Shield Vs Force: Shield gives you a +4 shield bonus to your armor class, which makes it very good for stacking with things because most arcanists don't have actual shields. It auto blocks magic missiles (and is one of maybe a handful, if that, of spells that actually stop magic missile), and it has a duration of 1 minute per caster level.

The Shield option of Force gives a +2 deflection bonus to AC, and lasts for 1 round. It has a baseline dc of 10. The basic example in the book has 'round up duration to 1 minute' for a dc of 19. This would actually be within your reasonable limits, with a 1d8-2 for the subdual damage roll, and you can actually hit a dc of 19 pretty easily with a +11 spellcraft. If you just need the bonus for one round, you can instead focus on getting more ac out of it, getting a +3 deflection to ac for a dc 17. But going much higher from there would be difficult at level 1 without better stats and more optimization.

The regular sorcerer wins this again: Shield has a baseline duration of a minute, which means instead of taking at least 1 subdual damage (and as much as 6) to get an inferior bonus and no protection from magic missiles, you take no subdual damage and have a source of armor class that stacks with things like a ring of protection and other sources of ac boosting down the line.


*DC's and accomplishing them: the Spellcaster class presented in True Sorcery gets a +2 insight bonus to spellcraft baked into the class by being Student of Magic rank. Furthermore, it (probably) gets to use it's casting stat for spellcraft instead of being locked into int, we'll assume the GM is fine with that, so you get to have charisma based Spellcraft checks. At level 1, it's easy enough to have 4 ranks + 2 charisma + 2 insight for a +8. But wait, there's more, with Skill Focus (Spellcraft) you could get another +3 and have a +11. There are probably some other ways to optimize your spellcraft at level 1, but I'm not going to worry about those, someone else can point them out. The main problem is that without optimizing the crap out of your spellcraft, you are going to have a hard time hitting the dc of 24 to get the very basic version of Sleep out that the system provides.


I just looked at the time and realized I need to be asleep, so I'll have to leave off higher level comparisons until later or into someone else's hands. So far The Spellcaster (True Sorcerer) is looking a little crap compared to regular casting, possibly with people overestimating how powerful more spells in a day is when you nerf those spells.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Yeah it seems like the True Sorcerer (or spellcaster) is kinda ****, I mean they have an extremely limited number of spells and they can easily knock themselves out. The biggest advantage they have over standard casters is the lack of fire and forget limits, but only two spells could knock them out so in essence they become even weaker. And since their casting ability is limited to their con, they don't seem to become stronger as they level up. This doesn't seem to be that powerful of a casting system, but maybe if you modified it, it could be greater.

thanks for you examination of the system btw

[Sagetim]

Yeah it seems like the True Sorcerer (or spellcaster) is kinda ****, I mean they have an extremely limited number of spells and they can easily knock themselves out. The biggest advantage they have over standard casters is the lack of fire and forget limits, but only two spells could knock them out so in essence they become even weaker. And since their casting ability is limited to their con, they don't seem to become stronger as they level up. This doesn't seem to be that powerful of a casting system, but maybe if you modified it, it could be greater.

thanks for you examination of the system btw

sure, but to be fair to the system some of these problems get less bad as you level up. Higher hp is going to have a definite impact against drain, higher ability scores are going to improve your performance more than on a regular sorcerer, and there are some feats that I didn't mention that can play into this whole thing, mostly because they're not very useful at level 1.

One of the factors going into the True Sorcery system is that your casting time is linked to your spellcraft modifier vs the dc of the spell you are casting. If you are casting a spell with a dc below your spellcraft modifier, I think it's a swift action, baseline? That's not bad. But the ranges start incrementing in 5's, so if your spellcraft bonus is +15, and the dc is 16, it falls into the range of 1 to 5, and eats a standard action, but if your spellcraft is +15 and the dc is 21, that's in the range of 6 to 10 it takes Two standard actions. Which is a wierd casting time (this scales up to 3, 5, 10 standard actions then goes into minutes).

One of the feats that plays into that is Talent Focus, which starts out by giving you a +5 to the spellcraft checks on that one particular talent. Now, you have to already have said talent to take it with that one, but that's just a matter of sense making. The important part is multifaceted: one- you can take it with the same talent more than once (though it gives diminishing returns each time, so you get +4 the second time, +3 the third time, and so on), and two- you can take it with different talents (and the first time you take it with any given talent, it gives the full +5 bonus). This can edge your spellcraft modifier up enough to get you out of eating multiple standard actions to cast the spell you want, or get you into range of casting something above your paygrade, so to speak. The main drawback here is that it does nothing about the Drain cost of the spell.

So, if you wanted to make a one trick pony at level one, you could use your bonus feat on talent focus, your first level feat on talent focus again, and your bonus feat for being a human because humans are awesome on Spell Energy Resovoir. Then, just to be a jerk, you dump your best stat into Con. This will net you as much spell energy as you can get your hands on (lets say this nets you an 18 in con), this gives you more hp to tank your self inflicted subdual damage with, and with those two feats your spellcraft modifier is now going to be much closer to hitting 24 with ease (let's say you have 14 charisma backing that up, for 4 ranks + 2 cha mod + 2 insight + 9 talent focus = +17, you can now cast the bastardized sleep with two standard actions across multiple turns (giving you a chance to ready it one round ahead of time and start closing distance, then finish closing distance and cast it in round 2). With a dc of 24, it's going to have a baseline of 1d8+4 drain, then apply spell energy...of 6. 4 con +1 +1more from the feat = 6.

Welcome to some mild optimization, where you're dropping a sleep effect and having a pretty good chance of fielding 2 without a problem in a given situation (1d8-1, with average rolls you would still have a little more hp than your total subdual damage from two castings).

The Energy talent is something that only opens up at level 5 (requiring first magnitude to get). Which is a real pain in the ass, because it starts at dc 15, dealing 1d4 energy damage to a 5ft burst with a 10ft range. As compared to a sorcerer who cries because he can't get fireball until level 6 anyway.

So let's compare level 6 spellcaster and level 6 sorcerer. At 5 the spellcaster gets a free talent (as well they should, so they can actually pick something at that level) along with a bonus feat, and then at level 6 they get a regular feat. So let's optimize a bit to get the most out of our spellcraft and see how Create Energy can stack up against Fireball.

9 ranks + 4 charisma modifier + 2 synergy from 5+ ranks of knowledge arcana + 4 insight bonus + 3 skill focus (a free bonus feat at level 3) + a very reasonably affordable +5 spellcraft magic item + 9 from 2 instances of talent focus = 9 + 4 + 2 + 4 + 3 + 5 + 9 = +36. That's a pretty monstrous skill bonus for a level 6 character. It's also pretty stongly optimized for just create energy. But that's okay.

Since the base dc is 15, you can easily get 20 points of wiggle room out of your +36 modifier and still cast as a swift action. So let's up the dice amount by 4, giving you a 5d4 explosion that you can use a super short range. Real simple point and boom. Now, the downside is that it's going to have a baseline of 1d8+7 drain. Let's see how you're doing for spell energy...In the extreme case of starting with 18 con, and taking one of our level 1 feats as more spell energy, the feat, we had 6 at level 1. We go up by 1 more at level 5 when we hit first magnitude. That's it.

So, dropping that 5d4 explosion is something you can do pretty regularly, but not all the time, because it's eating 1d8 subdual every time. But at least you can do it as a swift action. Now if we want to get a little more ambitious, we can up that to 5d6 damage (or 6d4) and cast it as a standard action, now costing 1d8+1 drain per. Which is not bad, but the main problem is the lack of range.

That said, if you just want to be visually impressive, you can do that with create energy basically all day. The baseline ability of 1d4 damage in a 5ft burst is probably going to look just as impressive as the 5d4 version of the same, it's using the same amount of space and so on. So just using the unmodified talent would be a piddling 1d8-7 drain, meaning you would only ever take 1 subdual damage for using it. Might be helpful for clearing out goblins or impressing the locals. Or setting their houses on fire when they inevitably annoy you.

Now, for comparison, the Sorcerer's Fireball is doing 6d6 damage, hitting an area with 4x the radius (20ft vs 5ft) and is shooting off at a distance that goes for days by comparison (400ft +40ft per level = 640 ft vs 10 ft). That range may not be as useful in a cramped dungeon, and that radius of spread might be a hazard too, but the free scaling damage with no additional effort on the part of the sorcerer is a major advantage. It's the same reason that magic is more potent than psionics in 3.5. Free scaling counts for a lot.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Ok so walk me through this, If I am a True Sorcerery, how do I pick my spells powers and abilities in order to be optimized? Like step by step, how does this system pan out?
Thanks for all your help btw

[Sagetim]

Well, the optimization is going to be very different. The True Sorcerer is going to wind up with waaaay fewer 'spells' than a sorcerer. And given that the sorcerer has kind of a crappy amount of spells anyway, that's really saying something.

Now, it could be argued that the True Sorcerer's 'spells' (talents) are more versatile in their deployment, allowing you to customize it as you cast it to fit the situation better, but the discrete spell effects that a sorcerer can call upon in 3.5 are pretty much always going to be stronger and with less effort. The example with trying to pump create energy up to make an equivalent effect to an equal level sorcerer's fireball is a good example of this. You have to invest a lot into a handful of somewhat variable effects to get even similar results, as compared to a sorcerer who gets to pick a few spells each level and they scale automatically with level.

Bearing this in mind, you aren't looking at the same kind of optimizing that other classes are. To start with, there are some Talents that provide the True Sorcerer with effects that normally lie outside the purview of arcane casters, such as the Healing talent at Second Magnitude (level 10). Third Magnitude (level 15) opens up the Life talent, along with Create Matter.

Healing Lore's baseline effect converts lethal damage to subdual damage, rather than healing it outright, but it has a note that 'for less lethal games, it should be fine to let it just cure lethal damage'. I think the assumption is that Healing Lore doesn't restore subdual damage, even when it cures lethal, but I don't think it explicitly states that. It is not, however, safe to assume that the gm will let you abuse the hell out of this to turn it into an infinite recharging loop for yourself and the team and also just set everyone to full hp between every fight. Even so, healing at all is generally completely off limits to arcane casters (other than bards, who don't count in 3.5 because they're bards).

Create Matter is amazing. It has no material and no xp cost built into it, and with a high enough dc modifier tacked on, you can use it to create gems and gold and other special materials with relative impunity. By the level that you get it, you'll have enough hp to soak the subdual damage for the kind of dc's we're talking about, even if you don't have a magnificent abundance of spell energy. If you want to break a game's economy over your knee and flood the market with materials that people normally pay ridiculous sums of gold for, then this is the Talent that can do that. You can also use it to make finished items with the right craft checks, so you don't have to stop by flooding the market with raw materials, you can make resplendently ornate mithral weapons studded with gems but still masterwork and properly balanced with a wave of your hand (or more likely, a few hours casting to hit the dc required). Point is:Daaaaayum.

Life- raise the dead, for fun and profit. No, seriously, you don't have to spend money on diamond dust for this one. The main downside is this one Does have a baked in xp cost. But at 500 a pop, it could be worse. the main issue is that unless you spring for the massive dc augmentation on it, the person you're spending 500 of your precious xp to raise is going to come back one level lower, etc. It's still something that arcanists can't normally do (and certianly not for Only 500 xp per casting). And not having to drop 5k, 10k, or 25k in diamond dust to cast it makes it rather easier to manage. Though, admittedly, since you could make the diamond dust with Create Matter, that would probably be pretty easy for you to manage anyway.

True Sorcerers are going to best find their optimization not so much by having a single set of abilities that are 'the best' but rather by doing their own thing and doing it really really well. And trying to make sure the thing they do fits teh challenges they'll be facing in the campaign they are in.

[thorr-kan]

Optimization notes:

True Sorcery can combine Talents to make unique spell effects. Examples are provided in True Sorcery.

Careful spell design with low Spellcraft DCs will mean a caster can literally cast some effects at will without any side effects. They will be low power, but dependable.

[Sagetim]

Optimization notes:

True Sorcery can combine Talents to make unique spell effects. Examples are provided in True Sorcery.

Careful spell design with low Spellcraft DCs will mean a caster can literally cast some effects at will without any side effects. They will be low power, but dependable.

Nearly without cost, yeah. There's still a minimum of 1 subdual damage per spell. Which can build up, even at higher level, but you're right in that you can cast magical effects with impunity as compared to a vancian caster.