Vampires don't actually need blood?

[gooddragon1]

I was reading the vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) entry and noticed that they don't take any penalties for not drinking blood. They have some weaknesses to strange things, but nothing about blood other than that they can drain it. So RAW you could have a vampire who doesn't drink blood?

[ExLibrisMortis]

The RAW on diet dependency is in Libris Mortis, in a sidebar on page 10. Vampires are diet-dependent on blood and have an inescapable craving for life force. They must make a DC 15 Will save or take 2d4 WIS damage every three days without blood, and a separate DC 25 Will save or take 1d6 WIS damage every day without energy drain. The DC does not scale with time, so if you automatically succeed those saves, you can more or less ignore your diet requirements. Feeding restores all wisdom damage suffered from failure to feed up to that point (by a permissive reading, you actually restore ability damage from any source, but I don't think that's the intention).

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't know the RAW, but does a ring of sustenance remove the need to feed?

[gooddragon1]

The RAW on diet dependency is in Libris Mortis, in a sidebar on page 10. Vampires are diet-dependent on blood and have an inescapable craving for life force. They must make a DC 15 Will save or take 2d4 WIS damage every three days without blood, and a separate DC 25 Will save or take 1d6 WIS damage every day without energy drain. The DC does not scale with time, so if you automatically succeed those saves, you can more or less ignore your diet requirements. Feeding restores all wisdom damage suffered from failure to feed up to that point (by a permissive reading, you actually restore ability damage from any source, but I don't think that's the intention).

So then:
1. You only use core they don't have to have blood.
Or
2. The vampire uses moment of perfect mind with a high enough concentration check then the vampire doesn't need blood.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So then:
1. You only use core they don't have to have blood.
Or
2. The vampire uses moment of perfect mind with a high enough concentration check then the vampire doesn't need blood.
Yeah, basically, though why you'd run a vampire game without LM is beyond me. Moment of Perfect Mind recharges quickly enough that you can use it on all diet/craving checks, DM permitting.

[Fouredged Sword]

"Was once a creature ruled by appetites, but though harsh training and diamond hard discipline moved past the needs of flesh into a more cerebral world" is a troupe for a reason.

[Gullintanni]

It's worth noting that the diet dependency rules are variant rules as well - there's nothing that requires they be used. I don't find them to be particularly well implemented, but ymmv.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's worth noting that the diet dependency rules are variant rules as well - there's nothing that requires they be used. I don't find them to be particularly well implemented, but ymmv.
Eh, the main body of text explicitly tells you to use the variant rule in the case of a vampire PC. It's not optional.

[Zanos]

So then:
1. You only use core they don't have to have blood.
Or
2. The vampire uses moment of perfect mind with a high enough concentration check then the vampire doesn't need blood.
Is 2. all that abnormal? You can bypass most mechanics with a bit of optimization, and vampires suck anyway.

[GrayDeath]

Ah, but with these options they don´t NEED to suck. :P

[Crake]

2. The vampire uses moment of perfect mind with a high enough concentration check then the vampire doesn't need blood.

Not all DMs would allow you to use an instantaneous ability to overcome a check that represents a day's worth of fortitude and willpower.

[Sagetim]

Ah, but with these options they don´t NEED to suck. :P

Considering their +8 ECL, that's a lot of court mandated sucking that is rather unavoidable. Even if you have monstrous class levels, you're either taking levels of a rather crappy class, or you're not getting anywhere near the full benefits of the template.

Now, in a world where epic levels do not exist, then of course hitting 20 and template stacking makes more sense, as there is no way to go up in level beyond that anyway, might as well stack your ecl modifier up as high as it can go. Why, as a caster you might even want to try some kind of shenanigans to become a lich-vampire, just to mess with people. All the cold beauty of the vampire with the 'nah, you didn't really kill me there' power of the lich backing the 'you didn't kill me hard enough' of the vampire, backing the damage reduction of the lich and the fast healing of the vampire and tight leather pants of a spaniard.

[ATHATH]

Not all DMs would allow you to use an instantaneous ability to overcome a check that represents a day's worth of fortitude and willpower.
Also, what happens if both saves (both for the life drain dependency and the blood dependency) happen simultaneously?

This thread kind of reminds me of Dwarf Fortress's vampires.

[Daefos]

I actually kind of like that D&D vampires (at least in core) don't really need the blood they consume. It helps to present them as monsters, as beings that are callous and indifferent to the harm they cause. They don't need the blood they drink to sustain themselves or their powers in any way, but they crave it nonetheless. And so they ruin lives and enslave the living to get it. Like if a person who smoked occasionally felt a mild craving, and then went out and butchered a family for a cigarette; there's a disconnect between how strong their desire is and the lengths they're willing to go to sate it.

[Kayblis]

Well, even if you ignore Libris Mortis, vampires don't "need" blood the same way any other being(PC, monster, commoner...) don't technically "need" food to live just because it's not clearly stated in the monster description "It MUST eat at least X pounds of meat/fruits/rocks per day or it dies". Yeah, it's undead, but at the same time the name "Vampire" comes with a lot of luggage attached, the same way "Human" kinda means you need to consume specifically organic matter and can't just eat dirt all day.

Even then, you're basically ignoring the [rules made specifically for players of specific race], which is on par with saying "meh, my dwarves don't need to eat or breathe air, I'll just ignore the rules that say they do".

[zergling.exe]

Well, even if you ignore Libris Mortis, vampires don't "need" blood the same way any other being(PC, monster, commoner...) don't technically "need" food to live just because it's not clearly stated in the monster description "It MUST eat at least X pounds of meat/fruits/rocks per day or it dies". Yeah, it's undead, but at the same time the name "Vampire" comes with a lot of luggage attached, the same way "Human" kinda means you need to consume specifically organic matter and can't just eat dirt all day.

Even then, you're basically ignoring the [rules made specifically for players of specific race], which is on par with saying "meh, my dwarves don't need to eat or breathe air, I'll just ignore the rules that say they do".

The things is, despite the rules calling out multiple types as not needing to eat/sleep/breathe, it never really has any consequences to not do them either. I'm not sure where it is but I believe the rules for not sleeping is merely being exhausted (or maybe just fatigued) all the time. No saves vs death or anything. Similarly nothing says that anything bad happens when you don't eat. Breathing is also ignored unless you are underwater, which kicks over to drowning rules. Otherwise nothing says that you NEED to breathe, or even what you breathe, just not water.

[Hackulator]

Well, even if you ignore Libris Mortis, vampires don't "need" blood the same way any other being(PC, monster, commoner...) don't technically "need" food to live just because it's not clearly stated in the monster description "It MUST eat at least X pounds of meat/fruits/rocks per day or it dies". Yeah, it's undead, but at the same time the name "Vampire" comes with a lot of luggage attached, the same way "Human" kinda means you need to consume specifically organic matter and can't just eat dirt all day.

Even then, you're basically ignoring the [rules made specifically for players of specific race], which is on par with saying "meh, my dwarves don't need to eat or breathe air, I'll just ignore the rules that say they do".

Actually, there are rules for starvation if you don't eat. These are ignored by types that don't need to eat, which include undead. While I agree vampires should need blood, RAW they don't and saying so isn't nearly as silly of a rules interpretation as you are suggesting.

[Necroticplague]

I don't know the RAW, but does a ring of sustenance remove the need to feed?

No. Ring of Sustenance only provides 'life-sustaining nourishment'. Vampires have no life to sustain, what with not being alive.

[GrayDeath]

Sadly noone got my pun. :/

[Zanos]

Sadly noone got my pun. :/
I got it, but had already made the joke. :smalltongue:

[Crake]

Even then, you're basically ignoring the [rules made specifically for players of specific race], which is on par with saying "meh, my dwarves don't need to eat or breathe air, I'll just ignore the rules that say they do".

The rules were put into place presumably to deal with players who were forced into the role of undead due to unfortunate circumstance and may be trying to resist their new carnal urges, to create drama. The game likely assumes that the vampires would otherwise happily satiate themselves when necessary, probably behind the scenes unless the players are into that sort of thing.

[Anxe]

Actually, there are rules for starvation if you don't eat. These are ignored by types that don't need to eat, which include undead. While I agree vampires should need blood, RAW they don't and saying so isn't nearly as silly of a rules interpretation as you are suggesting.

I just used those rules but made it into weeks instead of days without "food." Eventually the vampire would take enough damage and become catatonic. Then they could only be awoken with a blood meal. Seemed to fit really well with the lore presented in Underworld's vampire fiction.