Overlord-ish world setting

[Calthropstu]

If you haven't watched Overlord, here's a brief rundown:
Magic is heavily restricted, especially to humans. Humans can only get up to 3rd tier spells. It is possible to break this cap, but requires special circumstances.
Special martial magic can be employed by expert martials.
Undead creation is severely restricted by the type of corpse you use. High level undead requires higher level corpses.
Special items can store high level monsters which, when released, can fight for you and are then freed.
High level magic can also be bound into items. The highest magic requires artifact level equipment.

I like the idea of questing in such a world. I do not like the idea of E6 however. Can anyone recommend methods to make this work?

[Fouredged Sword]

What specifically do you dislike about E6? You could just cap spells at 3rd level if you really wanted to.

[Gildedragon]

Options: cap the maximum Spell Level, higher level slots can be used for metamagic. I'd put the cap around 5. One could also do this by taking the Adept spell progression and increasing the number of spells per day they get (up to 8 or 9 base)... and letting them pick from sorc/wiz, cleric, and Druid lists.

Martial magic: ToB and Paladin and Ranger and Meldshapers

Monster Binding in items... contingent summons? Gem magic summons?
Those are both quite expensive so I dunno

[Calthropstu]

What specifically do you dislike about E6? You could just cap spells at 3rd level if you really wanted to.

I do not like E6 because it is possible to go beyond the limits. If I ran such an adventure, it would be with the intent of the PCs ultimately finding methods to do so and setting themselves up as true heroes (villains?) of legend.

[Fouredged Sword]

I do not like E6 because it is possible to go beyond the limits. If I ran such an adventure, it would be with the intent of the PCs ultimately finding methods to do so and setting themselves up as true heroes (villains?) of legend.

I could see this. Perhaps a modified E6 where most of the world operates as E6, but items of great power can be used to expand one's soul to allow additional class levels to be gained. This would basically turn level advancement into a DM driven story element and EXP would be used exclusively for crafting and acquiring feats.

I am running something similar in my E6 underdark game. In that game things all operate at different E levels based on the magic umph their race possess and how long they have to prefect their crafts during their lifetimes. Humans operate at E6. Elves sit at E8. Dwarves at E7. Mindflayers can grow up to E12 before they start doing weird things and get culled before they turn into a new elder brain and become competition to the existing brain (who is E20).

Perhaps have EXP fuel the summoning mechanic. Invest EXP into a summon and play pokemon master with it so long as it survives. It would be a repeatable summon that generates a single instance of a summon monster spell that is always the same creature. Perhaps one epic feat (post 6th level feats gained every 5000 exp) ups it one table. You start able to summon a fiendish raven and end with an elemental monolith after 8-9 feats.

[Alcore]

It's not that humans are capped but XP gain becomes harder.


If you read the original work you would know this little gem; people who fight and kill monsters (grind for XP) become stronger, inhumanly so. They can't figure out why, theories exists.


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Think of it as D&D; the fastest way to level is by combat. But these are people. They don't want to bleed, suffer or die. So they do other things (pick commoner or expert like classes). Great warrors keep fighting the same things most times so after awhile they simply stop gaining XP. Then their aging, food, water, health and other life issues get involved.

Fighters (PC classes) who live awhile reach third tier and those rare few talented reach up to fifth tier. I know of only one confirmed human (who is a vampire) who can cast sixth tier.


Overlord's settings (pre and post transportation) are based on MMOs. 1-100 levels and hundreds of classes and races. Each 'level' increases each attribute by a small amount. A level 1 fighter cannot compare with a level 10 without better equipment than the other guy.


You can't use D&D to emulate a MMO mechanically....

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I won't go further on that tagent unless asked;


Why not a limit of six HD per class, XP bar reliant on total HD rather than level (capping level at 100/ he can't see his own level and while he thinks he might have gained warrior 1 he can't tell if he's 101). Also increase attribute gain by level. Bleach D20 has a larger rate of growth (page 10?) Which I'll pass on if desired.

[Calthropstu]

It's not that humans are capped but XP gain becomes harder.


If you read the original work you would know this little gem; people who fight and kill monsters (grind for XP) become stronger, inhumanly so. They can't figure out why, theories exists.


------

Think of it as D&D; the fastest way to level is by combat. But these are people. They don't want to bleed, suffer or die. So they do other things (pick commoner or expert like classes). Great warrors keep fighting the same things most times so after awhile they simply stop gaining XP. Then their aging, food, water, health and other life issues get involved.

Fighters (PC classes) who live awhile reach third tier and those rare few talented reach up to fifth tier. I know of only one confirmed human (who is a vampire) who can cast sixth tier.


Overlord's settings (pre and post transportation) are based on MMOs. 1-100 levels and hundreds of classes and races. Each 'level' increases each attribute by a small amount. A level 1 fighter cannot compare with a level 10 without better equipment than the other guy.


You can't use D&D to emulate a MMO mechanically....

--------------------

I won't go further on that tagent unless asked;


Why not a limit of six HD per class, XP bar reliant on total HD rather than level (capping level at 100/ he can't see his own level and while he thinks he might have gained warrior 1 he can't tell if he's 101). Also increase attribute gain by level. Bleach D20 has a larger rate of growth (page 10?) Which I'll pass on if desired.

I only watched the anime, I do not read manga ever. I am not talking character level, I am talking spell level. The tier 3 spell example they used was lightning bolt... which exactly matched what you would find in D&D.
A scale of spell level access = char lvl /10 seemed to be in effect... which would make humans cap at lvl 30 (5-6 for d&d)
But yeah, a story driven plot to find ways to increase power beyond the caps is exactly what I was thinking of.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then it sounds like what you want is standard DND, but NPC's are heavily weighted to be lower level than the assumed spread in 3.5.

[Calthropstu]

Then it sounds like what you want is standard DND, but NPC's are heavily weighted to be lower level than the assumed spread in 3.5.
Not exactly. The PCs will have serious trouble breaking the xp cap. Serious research will need to be done to get past lvl 6. Long in game time (months) of research. It won't be a simple "kill monsters, get xp) thing.
Eventually, an artifact will be available that will allow them to go past 6th, but it will only get them to 8th.
As they progress, more and more powerful artifacts will need to be found... and it won't be as simple as a knowledge check.

[Alcore]

The manga has its gems but that is still an adaptation. The light novels (with a picture every 20-40 pages) is the original work. Nothing is left out.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then I would go back to E6 (I know you said you didn't like it) and build in story driven methods to break into E7, then E8, then E9, ect. You are more or less just going by "EXP for storyline accomplishment" rather than "EXP by encounter", and if your group is aware of this and agrees that advancement will be slow that should be fine.

I would consider an E6 like mechanic that allows them some form of advancement outside of leveling, as static character sheets are somewhat boring to play for extended periods.

[Zanos]

If you haven't watched Overlord, here's a brief rundown:
Magic is heavily restricted, especially to humans. Humans can only get up to 3rd tier spells. It is possible to break this cap, but requires special circumstances.
It's uncommon, but the circumstances aren't exactly "special". Evileye can cast up to 5ths and Fluder can cast up to 6ths, and while both of them are very gifted and very old(by human standards, they're around 200ish), they aren't blessed by any unique circumstances other than their age and talent. Presumably with enough skill and time, anyone could achieve what they did. I think a couple of non-immortal casters have picked up 4ths, but I'd have to double check.


Special martial magic can be employed by expert martials.
Tome of Battle handles this fine.


Undead creation is severely restricted by the type of corpse you use. High level undead requires higher level corpses.
Between Ainz Creating Death Knights, Elder Liches, Wraiths and other high level undead permanently from basic corpses and Khajits bone dragons with the gem, that doesn't seem to be the case. Quality of available corpses doesn't seem to matter much.


Special items can store high level monsters which, when released, can fight for you and are then freed.
IIRC this only happened once, so while it's possible it's not exactly a frequently or commonly used tactic. In any case you could use smoky confinement for a consumable that releases a creature.



High level magic can also be bound into items. The highest magic requires artifact level equipment.
D&D supports that normally as far as I know. Spell storing items or regular item crafting.

"Artifact level" isn't exactly correct. Stuff that normal people consider the domain of gods is technically craftable, just not by anyone alive today. The stuff that actually can't be made is the World items from, which would be started as actual artifacts.

Other stuff would just require high level spells to craft that are outside of the domain of most humans.


I like the idea of questing in such a world. I do not like the idea of E6 however. Can anyone recommend methods to make this work?
Well, it isn't an E6 world, it just seems like there's a filter on becoming particularly experienced because adventuring is insanely lethal.

[Braininthejar2]

I don't think there was any cap in place. It was just a fantasy world with very few player characters. An average person will not suffer enough adversity in life to exp beyond level 2. Adventurers exist, but since the dangers are real, and there is no DM to fudge rolls in the players' favor, a teen-level adventuring party is something that will happen about once a generation.

I think the royal archmage in that setting could cast level 6 spells. You could have a pretty long campaign without hitting that cap. Balbur's Gate fits under that cap.

[RedWarlock]

Every time someone mentions Overlord, I think they're referencing the action/command game Overlord (which was the dark version of Pikmin like the way Darksiders feels like a dark LoZ:OoT..) the one with the color-coded goblin-ish minions and the deranged fantasy world.

Keep getting my hopes up..

[Prime32]

I only watched the anime, I do not read manga ever. I am not talking character level, I am talking spell level. The tier 3 spell example they used was lightning bolt... which exactly matched what you would find in D&D.
A scale of spell level access = char lvl /10 seemed to be in effect... which would make humans cap at lvl 30 (5-6 for d&d)
But yeah, a story driven plot to find ways to increase power beyond the caps is exactly what I was thinking of.
They're books, available in English even (https://global.bookwalker.jp/de41b71fd6-ed7a-4811-8083-b5f1336c3706/). There's a manga adaptation but it's less faithful than the anime.

The progression goes:

1st-tier: Lv1-7
2nd-tier: Lv8-14
3rd-tier: Lv16-21
4th-tier: Lv22-28
5th-tier: Lv29-35
6th-tier: Lv36-42
7th-tier: Lv43-49
8th-tier: Lv50-56
9th-tier: Lv57-63
10th-tier: Lv64+
Super-tier (1/day): Lv70-79
Super-tier (2/day): Lv80-89
Super-tier (3/day): Lv90-99
Super-tier (4/day): Lv100


So basically: lv1-70 in YGGDRASIL corresponds to lv1-20 in D&D, with each MMO level corresponding to 3.5 D&D levels. Most spellcasters are sorcerer-style casters, using the Spell Points variant with the "free daily metamagic" rule, and receiving 3 spells known per level (that's per MMO level, not D&D level :smalleek:). Also, spells go up to lv10.
Once you reach epic, the levels match up more or less 1:1 (you get an extra super-tier spell every 10 levels, just like with epic spells), which places Ainz and the Floor Guardians as lv50 D&D characters.

While the spellcasters are ripped directly from 3.5, martial classes rely mostly on "Skills" with individual cooldowns, making them closer to 4e's daily/encounter powers.

Classes are short (5-15 levels in the MMO), but often have "sequels" (e.g. once you've finished Druid, you can take levels in Arch Druid). Monsters are playable through racial classes, and have a similar branching progression: Ainz is a Skeletal Mage 15/Elder Lich 10/Overlord 5 for instance. Some racial classes (like Angel) require a special item to enter, similar to the promotion items from Fire Emblem.

People from the New World follow different rules to the MMO characters from YGGDRASIL. While it's possible for Ainz and co. to see their class levels, their builds often appear nonsensical (such as having a prestige class at lv1), and Ainz suspects that they don't have a level cap either. They can also learn or invent "martial art techniques" which are entirely separate from level progression, don't have many restrictions on when they can be used (somewhat similar to ToB) and cannot be learned by YGGDRASIL characters under any circumstances. Finally, "Wild Magic" is what people of the New World used in the distant past before some YGGDRASIL players were transported there and taught people their own magic system; it follows completely different rules (e.g. no spell levels, powerful casters can resurrect the dead at no cost) but is harder to learn and often has less raw power; only a handful of beings like ancient dragons are still capable of using it.

[Zanos]

Spell Point Wizard is actually the best approximation for Yggdrassil casting. IIRC there is an Arcane/Divine magic split, but all spells are learned and there's no cap other than your time. And they have mana, obviously.

[Prime32]

Spell Point Wizard is actually the best approximation for Yggdrassil casting. IIRC there is an Arcane/Divine magic split, but all spells are learned and there's no cap other than your time. And they have mana, obviously.Nah, it's explicitly 3 spells known/level. Though the Overlord's "Dark Wisdom" ability lets you burn resources to learn extra spells beyond that limit.

[Zanos]

Nah, it's explicitly 3 spells known/level. Though the Overlord's "Dark Wisdom" ability lets you burn resources to learn extra spells beyond that limit.
Ah, I must have missed that bit. I kind of speed read the LN, especially the early chapters. Bad translation was painful.

I still don't think it's quite sorcerer style, though. They do have to go around and actually learn those spells as far as I can recall.

[Alcore]

They do have to learn. Besides wild magic.

Manga was light hearted and made me smile, anime had good action but only gave a passing knod to the setting (it's focus is the story). If i had to pick it would be the novels or the manga unless it was a battle.

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Oh and corpse quality does matter, and material quality, for Ainz couldn't make undead higher than 30 with human corpses. Additionally their NPC magic item creator could not make scrolls above 3rd (using paper). The first wanted to do genicide against a lizard folk kingdom for quality corpses and the second a concentration camp for chimeras was created by the floor guardian with the red suit; their skin would be peeled off, healing would regrow new skin, i think hard labor was involved and the repeated the next day. The skins could hold scroll levels 4th and 5th (6th is a maybe/unspecified/not remembered)

Manga and anime does not cover it. Which is good.



Don't much see the reason though. The only 'wild' death knight in the setting massacred three whole battalions before being captured by more battalions and a few national heros. Their best wizard still can't control it. It's level 30.

[Mehangel]

I am pretty sure you could very easily use Spheres of Power and Path of War (and maybe Spheres of Might) to accomplish these.


Magic is heavily restricted, especially to humans. Humans can only get up to 3rd tier spells. It is possible to break this cap, but requires special circumstances.
Humans may not be higher than low-casters


Special martial magic can be employed by expert martials.
Path of War


Undead creation is severely restricted by the type of corpse you use. High level undead requires higher level corpses.
Death sphere


Special items can store high level monsters which, when released, can fight for you and are then freed.
Conjuration sphere


High level magic can also be bound into items. The highest magic requires artifact level equipment.
Advanced Talents

[Gildedragon]

So re Undead corpse quality:
It already is a thing. Humanish (hyooms, elves, helps, horns etc) can only produce 1HD Undead

Now if you want humanish corpses to create sturdier undies, drop this line from the undead templates: "Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1)" and need for set HD Undead (like a mohrg) use a corpse with those HD. They gotta find thrmselves a lvl 14 warrior to get one of those babies

As for Equipment quality:
Implement the War of the Lance "tiers"
Base
Masterwork item
Item of Reknown
Item of Fame
Item of Glory
Item of Legend

[Calthropstu]

A lot of good info in this thread, thanks everyone. The anime didn't really go into the details of the level system. I knew that Ainz had access to top tier spells, I assumed he was lvl 100.
In the anime, it mentioned humans were restricted to third tier spells, and that the most powerful of casters were restricted to 6 tier... hence the bone dragons being mistakenly believed to be immune to magic (immune to tier 6 and below)
Chain lightning was tier 7... which it is also tier 7 in D&D (and always has been) which leads me to believe the magic system is, in fact, D&D based (or at least inspired.)
So it isn't too hard to convert I would think. The level breakdown earlier in the thread was most helpful.

[Prime32]

A lot of good info in this thread, thanks everyone. The anime didn't really go into the details of the level system. I knew that Ainz had access to top tier spells, I assumed he was lvl 100.He and the Floor Guardians are all lv100 (except for the Guardian that was designed to place crippling debuffs on parties that kill it, then release a horde of monsters into the boss room).

In the anime, it mentioned humans were restricted to third tier spells, and that the most powerful of casters were restricted to 6 tier... hence the bone dragons being mistakenly believed to be immune to magic (immune to tier 6 and below)
Chain lightning was tier 7... which it is also tier 7 in D&D (and always has been) which leads me to believe the magic system is, in fact, D&D based (or at least inspired.)You don't know the half of it. Shalltear mentions that she only takes full damage from weapons that are both silver and magic, and explicitly has levels in that vampire PrC from Book of Vile Darkness (she both names it and uses its abilities). Albedo is a nalfeshnee, and Nishiki Enrai brags about how he has an obscure ability that lets him sneak past a Purple Worm's ability to sense vibrations through the ground.

If you look closely in the skeletal dragon fight, Nabe even sheathes her sword so that she can bludgeon the dragon with it.

[Zytil]

It's uncommon, but the circumstances aren't exactly "special". Evileye can cast up to 5ths and Fluder can cast up to 6ths, and while both of them are very gifted and very old(by human standards, they're around 200ish), they aren't blessed by any unique circumstances other than their age and talent. Presumably with enough skill and time, anyone could achieve what they did. I think a couple of non-immortal casters have picked up 4ths, but I'd have to double check.

Between Ainz Creating Death Knights, Elder Liches, Wraiths and other high level undead permanently from basic corpses and Khajits bone dragons with the gem, that doesn't seem to be the case. Quality of available corpses doesn't seem to matter much.

IIRC this only happened once, so while it's possible it's not exactly a frequently or commonly used tactic. In any case you could use smoky confinement for a consumable that releases a creature.

To clarify,
Fluder has several apprentices capable of casting 4ths.

Ainz has stated that it's difficult to create anything more powerful than a Death Knight(A level 35 monster) from a standard human corpse without burning XP.(This is basically the entire motivation for the lizardman arc.)

IIRC, the gem used by the Theocracy contained a Summon Monster spell, not a sealed monster.

[Zanos]

A lot of good info in this thread, thanks everyone. The anime didn't really go into the details of the level system. I knew that Ainz had access to top tier spells, I assumed he was lvl 100.
In the anime, it mentioned humans were restricted to third tier spells, and that the most powerful of casters were restricted to 6 tier... hence the bone dragons being mistakenly believed to be immune to magic (immune to tier 6 and below)
No human in recent memory has been able to cast magic higher than 6th tier, but my reading of the LN was that this wasn't a hard cap, it's just that magic is hard and getting to even 3rd level spells is pretty difficult considering the dangers of adventuring.

There's a character in the LN that can cast 6th tier magic but is an otherwise "normal" human. He's lived longer than any human could unassisted, but as far as I know he has no unique abilities that "unlocks" 6th tier magic for him. He's just very good and very old.

There's a 5th tier caster that meets similar criteria.

A handful of characters the 6th tier caster has trained have achieved 4th tier magic. Not many, but 4th tier casting is at least non-unique in the LN.


Chain lightning was tier 7... which it is also tier 7 in D&D (and always has been) which leads me to believe the magic system is, in fact, D&D based (or at least inspired.)
So it isn't too hard to convert I would think. The level breakdown earlier in the thread was most helpful.
It's heavily D&D based. They used metamagic feats and spells pretty frequently. I'm pretty sure the martial skills are at least somewhat inspired by Tome of Battle. If you want to look at the wiki for spells Ainz has cast you'll find that a lot of them are cribbed straight from D&D. Off the top of my head I know he casts Delay Teleportation(Anticipate Teleport), Cry of the Banshee(Wail of the Banshee), Wish Upon a Star(explicitly consumes XP too), Fly, Mass Fly, Haste, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Magic Arrow(Magic Missile, explicitly can't be dodged), Gate, Freedom(of Movement), and probably some other spells I missed.

Also remember that Overlord magic goes from 1-10 + Super, but D&D magic goes from 0-9 + Epic. So the number of levels and progression is very similar.

I don't speak Japanese but I've heard that the author confirmed Overlord was D&D inspired at some point. It's pretty obvious either way, though.

EDIT: Ninja'd, at least partially. Been awhile since I read the Lizardman stuff.

[Random Sanity]

To add to Zanos's list: Protection from Energy(X) shows up a couple of times verbatim, Reinforce Armor is a pretty clear Mage Armor substitute, and an early villain fires off an Acid Javelin which is basically Melf's Acid Arrow.

[Blackhawk748]

You don't know the half of it. Shalltear mentions that she only takes full damage from weapons that are both silver and magic, and explicitly has levels in that vampire PrC from Book of Vile Darkness (she both names it and uses its abilities). Albedo is a nalfeshnee, and Nishiki Enrai brags about how he has an obscure ability that lets him sneak past a Purple Worm's ability to sense vibrations through the ground.

That is some serious sexual dimorphism

[Yogibear41]

I guess I was the only one that clicked on this thread thinking of a dark master with his goblin minions. :smallfrown: because "evil always finds a way"

[Prime32]

That is some serious sexual dimorphismShe seems to have multiclassed into succubus for the shapeshifting abilities, but her true form is a "wide-mouthed gorilla".

[Alcore]

I guess I was the only one that clicked on this thread thinking of a dark master with his goblin minions. :smallfrown: because "evil always finds a way"

I do too :smallfrown:


Found and played that overlord first. Second has a deeper story but it pales in comparison to sitting on your own throne or basking in the glow of a room full of gold.

[Blackhawk748]

She seems to have multiclassed into succubus for the shapeshifting abilities, but her true form is a "wide-mouthed gorilla".

Huh, i only saw the anime so i've only seen her larger than average mouth, but i can kinda see it. Plus it makes sense with how her body is laid out.