*sigh* Looking for in-play examples of spellcasting to understand it better...

[samcifer]

Even after reading up on spellcasting in 3.5 (and Next/5th ed. as spellcasting sounds like it works the same way there), I'm still having a hard time picturing how it works in combat. Could anyone give me examples of how spellcasting works in an actual combat scenario? It seems that enemies roll instead of players (again, I've only ever gotten to play 4th ed., and this seems much different from that edition) and I'm confused on how concentration works in an actual scenario. I'd like to see examples of a turn in combat of how various types of spells work as well as the mechanics involved so that I can understand how spellcasting works better. (if class is a factor, I'm wanting to play a wizard or sorcerer, though if there's differences in spellcasting in combat for divine spells, warlock spells, etc., how are those different?)

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me understand this better.

[Hackulator]

Sorcerer is attacked by some orcs. They are far from him so only a couple reach him the first round. He decides to ,a spell at them, here is how it goes.

1-If they are next to him when he casts a spell, they get an attack of opportunity against him. Generally, he will avoid this by making a concentration check to cast defensively, allowing him to cast without provoking the attack. If he fails that roll, he loses his spell without casting it.

2-He succeeds on concentration and casts fireball. Fireball targets a square so except for rare circumstances, there is no attack roll, you simply pick the square it explodes in

3-Each orc has a chance to dive for cover, dodge or whatever, which is defined by their reflex save bonus. They roll a d20, add their reflex save bonus, and if it is equal or greater than the spells save difficulty (DC), they only take half damage. If they fail they take full damage.

There are a lot of variations. Some spells simply target a creature with no attack roll, like charm person, and the enemy just makes a saving through (in that case a Will saving throw), in which case they are unaffected on a save. The exact mechanics of succeeding and failing a saving throw will be described in the spell, some spells are completely ignored on a save, while some spells have partial effect on a save.

Some spells, will require an attack roll. For example, any spell that fires some sort of ray at your enemy requires an attack roll. These spells may also require a saving throw, or they may not in which case the spell takes affect as long as you make your to-hit roll.

Creatures can also have spell resistance, which can block a lot of spells. IF they do, the caster must make a roll to beat their spell resistance in addition to any other rolls the spell requires such as attack rolls, and the creatures can still make saving throws if applicable.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mechanically it makes little difference if the monster is generating a set DC that the player needs to roll over (armor class), or you are setting a DC that the monster needs to roll over (saves)

If you wanted to you could change the game so that all monsters saves equaled 10+ their normal save bonus and spellcasters rolled 1d20+spell level+dominant modifier to try to beat their save. You would want to roll once per target of the spell, or spells would become all or nothing affairs, but it would change any of the math.

In general there are four groups of spells

1 - No save/no attack spells. These are things like magic missile. They just work. If a wizard is being attacked by a ghost and casts magic missile to deal damage to it he simply rolled the damage and applies it to the ghost. Most buffs fall into this group normally. Your ally does not need to save to resist your spell, but they may CHOOSE to if they don't trust you if the spell states the save as XXX(harmless) for example Fort negates (harmless).

2 - Attack roll spells (also referred to as rays or weapon like spells). For these spells you make an attack roll and compare it to the target's AC, touch, flatfooted or otherwise. Some spells make multiple attack rolls. A wizard shooting an orc with scorching ray rolls 1d20+dex+bab three times and checks to see if each of the rays hit. If they did they do the listed damage once per beam. An attack roll that misses does nothing.

3 - Save spells - These are spells that trigger saves. The target(s) of the spell all individually roll 1d20+save and compare it to the DC set by the casters stats and spell level. The spell has a listed effect if they fail the save and will sometimes have what is called a partial effect even if they pass the save. Spells without a partial effect do nothing to targets who pass their save. Fireball is a spell that targets all creatures in an area and deals up to 10d6 fire damage with a reflex save for half damage. If a wizard casts fireball at a band of orcs the wizard rolls the fireballs damage once. The orcs each make an individual save and try to roll over 10+3(the spell level)+ the wizards int modifier. Orcs who roll low take the full damage. Orcs who roll high take half the damage.

4 - Spells that have both save AND attack roll - Some spells have both an attack roll AND a save. For example Ray of Exhaustion is a ray that also is fortitude save partial. If a wizard casts ray of exhaustion at an ogre he must make an attack roll vs the AC of the ogre. If he misses nothing happens. If he hits the Ogre must make a fortitude save with a DC of 10+3+wizards int. If the ogre fails the save he becomes exhausted for a time. If he passes the save he still suffers the partial effect of being fatigued for a while.

The end result is much the same as 4th edition mathematically. DnD has just been moving more and more to all player driven rolling for some time as the player audience seems to like rolling dice for some reason. It makes no real difference who rolls what from an odds perspective.

[Uckleverry]

It works very much like 4e actually.

You pick the spell you want to cast. Then you spend the action it requires (nearly always standard action). The spell description specifies the range (typically ranged, melee touch, or a 'close' spell aka an area extending from the caster).

In 4e, if someone hits you while you're casting a spell, the spell isn't stopped unless you're stunned or something like that. In 3.5, if you're hit while casting, you immediately roll a Concentration check to see if you lose the casting as you fail to complete the action (and the action is spent).

In 4e, if an enemy is next to you while you use a ranged or an area power, you provoke an opportunity attack. In 3.5 it's the same thing, but spellcasters can 'cast defensively' so as not to provoke -- but then you make a Concentration check or lose the casting and waste the action.

In 4e, your spells target the enemy's Fort, Ref, or Will defense. In 3.5, the roll is just inverted and the defender rolls their Fort, Ref, or Will saving throw. The 4e concept of saving throws is different and doesn't exist per se in 3.5 (a few spells allow you to save again and again, kind of like 4e saves, but even then it's not a plain d20 with 10+ as success, instead it's just rolling the defense roll again).

Edit: Another important difference is that ray-type spells first target 'touch AC' in 3.5, not Ref or other defense like in 4e.

[EldritchWeaver]

To expand on the orc/sorcerer example: Instead of fighting defensively, which has the chance to lose the spell, it might be possible to avoid AoO by employing a 5-foot step. But this requires that after moving you are out of reach from all orcs afterwards and you may not actually move in the same round anymore (you can use your move action only for move-equivalent things like drawing an item from your backpack).

[samcifer]

Mechanically it makes little difference if the monster is generating a set DC that the player needs to roll over (armor class), or you are setting a DC that the monster needs to roll over (saves)

If you wanted to you could change the game so that all monsters saves equaled 10+ their normal save bonus and spellcasters rolled 1d20+spell level+dominant modifier to try to beat their save. You would want to roll once per target of the spell, or spells would become all or nothing affairs, but it would change any of the math.

In general there are four groups of spells

1 - No save/no attack spells. These are things like magic missile. They just work. If a wizard is being attacked by a ghost and casts magic missile to deal damage to it he simply rolled the damage and applies it to the ghost. Most buffs fall into this group normally. Your ally does not need to save to resist your spell, but they may CHOOSE to if they don't trust you if the spell states the save as XXX(harmless) for example Fort negates (harmless).

2 - Attack roll spells (also referred to as rays or weapon like spells). For these spells you make an attack roll and compare it to the target's AC, touch, flatfooted or otherwise. Some spells make multiple attack rolls. A wizard shooting an orc with scorching ray rolls 1d20+dex+bab three times and checks to see if each of the rays hit. If they did they do the listed damage once per beam. An attack roll that misses does nothing.

3 - Save spells - These are spells that trigger saves. The target(s) of the spell all individually roll 1d20+save and compare it to the DC set by the casters stats and spell level. The spell has a listed effect if they fail the save and will sometimes have what is called a partial effect even if they pass the save. Spells without a partial effect do nothing to targets who pass their save. Fireball is a spell that targets all creatures in an area and deals up to 10d6 fire damage with a reflex save for half damage. If a wizard casts fireball at a band of orcs the wizard rolls the fireballs damage once. The orcs each make an individual save and try to roll over 10+3(the spell level)+ the wizards int modifier. Orcs who roll low take the full damage. Orcs who roll high take half the damage.

4 - Spells that have both save AND attack roll - Some spells have both an attack roll AND a save. For example Ray of Exhaustion is a ray that also is fortitude save partial. If a wizard casts ray of exhaustion at an ogre he must make an attack roll vs the AC of the ogre. If he misses nothing happens. If he hits the Ogre must make a fortitude save with a DC of 10+3+wizards int. If the ogre fails the save he becomes exhausted for a time. If he passes the save he still suffers the partial effect of being fatigued for a while.

The end result is much the same as 4th edition mathematically. DnD has just been moving more and more to all player driven rolling for some time as the player audience seems to like rolling dice for some reason. It makes no real difference who rolls what from an odds perspective.

What does the 'bab' in example 2 mean?

[torrasque666]

What does the 'bab' in example 2 mean?
Base Attack B​onus

[samcifer]

Okay, so not every attack requires a roll to hit, so accuracy is only important to certain spells unlike in 4e, where accuracy ALWAYs mattered. Other than that and damage rolls, most rolling will be done by the enemies. It sounds as if Concentration is fairly important, though, as I couldn't always be guaranteed to be able to be outside of swatting distance. So having high Concentration and high Main stat (INT or CHA) are both important to caster characters from the sound of it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Okay, so not every attack requires a roll to hit, so accuracy is only important to certain spells unlike in 4e, where accuracy ALWAYs mattered. Other than that and damage rolls, most rolling will be done by the enemies. It sounds as if Concentration is fairly important, though, as I couldn't always be guaranteed to be able to be outside of swatting distance. So having high Concentration and high Main stat (INT or CHA) are both important to caster characters from the sound of it.

Yes, concentration is important. If you fail a concentration check you waste your action and lose a spell slot. In 3.5 spell slots are VERY VALUABLE. It is not just being threatened that can trigger a concentration check. Generally any time your character ether has his motion restricted or is otherwise distracted the DM can call for a concentration check. You should absolutely ensure that you can hit a DC 20 check every single time as soon as you can. A druid can throw out entangle at 1st level. It entangles things (as the name states) in a large area. Entangled things must make DC 15 concentration checks to cast spells. Smart enemies will delay their action to attempt to shoot you with an arrow in the middle of your casting. Effects that deal damage over multiple turns require a check based on the damage it is dealing each round. The party casters are the most dangerous part of the party. Smart enemies will attempt to keep you from casting. Concentration will help you ignore many of the methods they will use to do so.

If you are a wizard and you cannot cast spells you are little better than a commoner.

[Uckleverry]

Generally speaking, touch AC tends to be pretty low, so spells that require attack rolls (so ray spells and melee touch spells) miss only sometimes, and even then mostly at lower levels.

Your 'spell accuracy' in 3.5 are the DCs for your spells, and you increase those by raising your spellcasting ability score and by taking feats that increase the DCs.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, touch AC is 10+dex unless the target is using one of a small list of spells that help touch AC. A wizard's bab is half that of a fighter's, but that is still decent. Touch AC doesn't really scale up as monsters get more powerful. Actually, as you fight bigger and scarier monsters, touch AC tends to go DOWN.

As a wizard you want a decent Dex score anyway, and ranged touch attacks (most ranged attack roll spells) add your dex to your roll. Consider gloves of dexterity as you level. They are good all around bonuses that add to your ranged attack rolls, armor class and touch armor class, and initiative. You will hit more frequently, dodge more attacks, and will act quicker during the round and thus cast your spells that deny the enemy their actions sooner.

In general a caster should max out their casting stat and then devide the rest of their point buy between dex and con. Str, Wis, and the other mental stats rarely mater.

[samcifer]

Generally speaking, touch AC tends to be pretty low, so spells that require attack rolls (so ray spells and melee touch spells) miss only sometimes, and even then mostly at lower levels.

Your 'spell accuracy' in 3.5 are the DCs for your spells, and you increase those by raising your spellcasting ability score and by taking feats that increase the DCs.

Which feats are those? I know there's a concentration feat that increases your concentration score, but are there other ones?

[Fouredged Sword]

Which feats are those? I know there's a concentration feat that increases your concentration score, but are there other ones?

Concentration is a skill in 3.5. You put skill points into it just like you would a knowledge skill or survival or spot. Your max rank is 3+level, so at level 1 you can put 4 points into it and get +4 to concentration checks. The dominant attribute for that skill is constitution. That means you add your constitution modifier to all concentration rolls. You generally want a +2 or +3 constitution modifier as just about any character and you want to get a +con item shortly after you get your +casting stat item.

So in practice you should have a +7 to concentration checks at 1st level. This will go up 1 point per level as you SHOULD put 1 skill rank in concentration each and every level.

There are two main feats that give bonuses to concentration. The first is "Combat Casting". It grants a nice +4, BUT ONLY TO CHECKS TO CAST DEFENSIVELY. It won't help you cast in a hurricane or earthquake, not help you with someone shooting you during your casting or while you have damage that continues for multiple rounds.

That is why most people who play the game a lot suggest you take the humble Skill Focus (concentration) first. It only grants a +3, but does so to ALL concentration checks.

If you are really concerned about concentration checks and casting defensively, you can take both and they stack. That said, a wizard has no place in melee. Most people simply max out their concentration skill and keep it maxes, and make sure their constitution bonus it pretty high (mostly for the extra HP, but the concentration bonus helps).

There are also some items that are very handy. A Tunic of Steady Spellcasting is an item that grants +5 to a concentration checks. Very handy and a lot cheaper than spending on of your rare feats. Gold flows like water, you only ever get a handful of feats.