+9 Con saves = not losing concentration for minor damage?

[TheUser]

Going to have a level 6 Paladin with +9 constitution saves and was thinking that makes concentration rolls for anything under 20 damage not necessary yes?

Unlike attack rolls, rolling a 1 on a save isn't an automatic failure right?

[Millstone85]

That seems to be true.

[FinnS]

That seems to be true.

And you solve that simple problem by being a Halfling.

[jeanquilt]

Yes, you will automatically pass any DC 10 or less CON save. There are penalities for nat 1's and no bonuses for nat 20's on anything other than attack roles, RAI. PHB says "concentration save DC is 10 or half the damage you take, whichever is less" so for any attack that does less than 22 damage (because 21 rounds down to a DC 10 save), you don't technically need to make the save because you'll pass.

However, your DM might still ask you to roll the die, and I would recommend you do regardless, just with the full confidence that you will succeed.

Can I ask how you got to +9? I might try to implement that on a future character.

[TheUser]

Yes, you will automatically pass any DC 10 or less CON save. There are penalities for nat 1's and no bonuses for nat 20's on anything other than attack roles, RAI. PHB says "concentration save DC is 10 or half the damage you take, whichever is less" so for any attack that does less than 22 damage (because 21 rounds down to a DC 10 save), you don't technically need to make the save because you'll pass.

However, your DM might still ask you to roll the die, and I would recommend you do regardless, just with the full confidence that you will succeed.

Can I ask how you got to +9? I might try to implement that on a future character.

Human Variant with Resillient Constitution

+3 Constitution modifier, +3 Proficiency bonus, Aura of Protection + 3 = 9

I'll also be running Heavy Armor Master (because it's a low level campaign) so I will have to take 25 from bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage before I need a concentration save teehee

[Biggstick]

I personally am a huge fan of doing this on Oath of the Crown and Oath of Vengeance Paladins. Both have an amazing third level spell to cast (Spirit Guardians and Haste respectively) that you don't want to lose concentration on.

Seeing as how you're running a low level campaign though, I probably would have gone for something else feat-wise for my level 1 feat. Is their a concentration spell that you're that worried about losing concentration on as a Paladin?

[TheUser]

I personally am a huge fan of doing this on Oath of the Crown and Oath of Vengeance Paladins. Both have an amazing third level spell to cast (Spirit Guardians and Haste respectively) that you don't want to lose concentration on.

Seeing as how you're running a low level campaign though, I probably would have gone for something else feat-wise for my level 1 feat. Is their a concentration spell that you're that worried about losing concentration on as a Paladin?

Bless, Bane, Hunter's Mark, Shield of Faith, Heroism, Compelled Duel, Aura of Vitality, Haste etc. etc. There's a whole slew of concentration spells I want to make use of.

I look forward to saving time on concentration rolls when facing off against little hitters.

[Malifice]

Yep. Thats true.

Of course from mid-levels damage of 20+ per attack is pretty common.

It really means that mooks stand no chance of dropping your concentration.

IMG I use the old 'natural 1 fails saves' and 'natural 20 passes' rule as a house rule.

Particularly at high level when save DC's get higher, its nice to always have a chance (you're saving each round for most effects, so with inspiration and so forth. you're a chance).

[SharkForce]

Yep. Thats true.

Of course from mid-levels damage of 20+ per attack is pretty common.

It really means that mooks stand no chance of dropping your concentration.

IMG I use the old 'natural 1 fails saves' and 'natural 20 passes' rule as a house rule.

Particularly at high level when save DC's get higher, its nice to always have a chance (you're saving each round for most effects, so with inspiration and so forth. you're a chance).

unless you're doing something pretty screwy, or you *seriously* dumped a stat, you shouldn't need the 1=fail and 20=success the great majority of the time. that's the whole point of bounded accuracy... the save DC for almost anything is possible for almost anyone. even at high level... most monsters stop at DC 18, never mind 19, even for the powerful ones, and the few that don't are usually relatively minor effects (ancient dragons can get wing buffet DCs over 20, but that's generally a knock prone effect that costs 2 legendary actions)

likewise for the PCs... unless you're handing out magic items that boost DCs (which are in general terribly broken and poorly designed specifically because of how non-proficient saves work), the highest save DC you should be looking at for monsters to make is DC 19, which can even be made with a -1... you need a very specifically targeted effect to get a guaranteed fail unless you changed something to ruin the system in the first place, in which case the game doesn't need fixing, it needs you to have not broken it in the first place.

[Malifice]

unless you're doing something pretty screwy, or you *seriously* dumped a stat, you shouldn't need the 1=fail and 20=success the great majority of the time.

Have you played to high level mate? Only two saves cale with bounded accuracy (3 with a feat, and Monks get all 6). Save DCs keep on trucking.

The party is currently 16th level and DC 20+ saves are in (relative) abundance.

They fought an Ancient Green the other day with DC 19 Wisdom saves (fear) DC 22 Con saves (breath) and DC 23 Dex saves (wings) in addtion to needing DC 30+ Con saves to keep concentration on spells when breathed on.

Its hard to maintain concentration on Bless for an extra +1d4 to saves when you're copping a DC 40 Con save to keep it running in the first place.

There was a Lich the other day I threw at them with DC 21 Spell saves. In fact most DCs they resist at this level are DCs in the 15 (low end of the scale) to 25 (upper end) mark.

This way, there is always a chance. Plus, there is always a chance that their +10 Con saves wont be enough to keep a spell running when the mook they've been ignoring pokes them with a spear.

It works in my games.

[SharkForce]

.

Have you played to high level mate? Only two saves cale with bounded accuracy (3 with a feat, and Monks get all 6). Save DCs keep on trucking.

The party is currently 16th level and DC 20+ saves are in (relative) abundance.

They fought an Ancient Green the other day with DC 19 Wisdom saves (fear) DC 22 Con saves (breath) and DC 23 Dex saves (wings) in addtion to needing DC 30+ Con saves to keep concentration on spells when breathed on.

Its hard to maintain concentration on Bless for an extra +1d4 to saves when you're copping a DC 40 Con save to keep it running in the first place.

There was a Lich the other day I threw at them with DC 21 Spell saves. In fact most DCs they resist at this level are DCs in the 15 (low end of the scale) to 25 (upper end) mark.

This way, there is always a chance. Plus, there is always a chance that their +10 Con saves wont be enough to keep a spell running when the mook they've been ignoring pokes them with a spear.

It works in my games.

i would classify consistently fighting CR 21+ creatures (particularly for non-epic characters) as standard fights to be pretty screwy.

[Gastronomie]

Unless you get debuffs to your saving throw, like Bane (-1d4), you are correct.

[Malifice]

i would classify consistently fighting CR 21+ creatures (particularly for non-epic characters) as standard fights to be pretty screwy.

There are 5 x 16th level Pcs.

A single CR 21 creature is a hard fight. Not even deadly. They should be able to deal with around 6-8 (medium-hard) encounters between long rests.

CR is a guideline. It's the Encounter xp budget that matters.

[TheUser]

There are 5 x 16th level Pcs.

A single CR 21 creature is a hard fight. Not even deadly. They should be able to deal with around 6-8 (medium-hard) encounters between long rests.

CR is a guideline. It's the Encounter xp budget that matters.

Somehow I envision a single Solar (CR 21) or Brass Dragon (CR 20) absolutely man-handling a level 16 party if it catches them outdoors...Level 17 seems far more doable(something about having level 9 spells makes it far more possible).

[Malifice]

Somehow I envision a single Solar (CR 21) or Brass Dragon (CR 20) absolutely man-handling a level 16 party if it catches them outdoors...Level 17 seems far more doable(something about having level 9 spells makes it far more possible).

Not a chance in hell.

Fighter with sharpshooter action surges and fires 6 shots at plus 9 doing 1d8 plus 1d12 plus 17 damage per hit. Thats over 100 damage there.

Vengeance Paladin drops hunters mark and attacks twice dropping smites in each hit (10d8+16+2d6 more damage).

Wizard, cleric and rogue haven't acted yet.

You would be surprised how potent 16th level PCs can be.

[TheUser]

Not a chance in hell.

Fighter with sharpshooter action surges and fires 6 shots at plus 9 doing 1d8 plus 1d12 plus 17 damage per hit. Thats over 100 damage there.

Vengeance Paladin drops hunters mark and attacks twice dropping smites in each hit (10d8+16+2d6 more damage).

Wizard, cleric and rogue haven't acted yet.

You would be surprised how potent 16th level PCs can be.

Do you apply disdvantage to arrows fired directly upward?

How does vengeance pally participate if the solar never lands?

If it's 600 ft high then flies higher after attacking then teleports 120ft up after only to descend/fall for free movement on it's turn how do you reach it/close the distance?

What spells do your cleric and wizard have with range 600ft?

[Citan]

Do you apply disdvantage to arrows fired directly upward?

How does vengeance pally participate if the solar never lands?

If it's 600 ft high then flies higher after attacking then teleports 120ft up after only to descend/fall for free movement on it's turn how do you reach it/close the distance?

What spells do your cleric and wizard have with range 600ft?
I'll let Malifice expose answer (it's his party after all, and I'm not familiar with those creatures -nor have MM now) but...
1. If it's 600 feet away, then that creature must not have anything significant for offense either?
2. If it free-falls from that high a distance, it should take at least one full turn to make the whole 600 feet is my guess (but I admit I never really used the fall mechanic to such extent, and nothing in PHB says how long a fall should take -and I stopped physics 20 years ago XD), so the party should have time to react and adapt.
3. Once the creature is within 300 feet, any decent Wizard will have kept Earthbind as a prepared spell (maybe creature has too high a save though?).
Or someone could erect a protective Wall (Stone, Force) to create some cover and force the enemy to come and use its abilities from a narrowed angle.

I'm sure there are better/other ways to act, but not familiar with high level creatures keeping at a high distance. ;)

EDIT: could find some information on both creatures. Ancient Brass Dragon is honestly "meh", as in any properly built party should be able to take care of it without much problem. Solar is... Quite another thing: most of its abilities are not that impressive, but the Slaying Arrow is quite frightening indeed, extremely dangerous for most people except the high-resilience martials. On the plus side, it would fire at disadvantage if long-range, whereas you can expect any party to have at least one with Sharpshooter or Spell Sniper. ;)

[Toofey]

i would classify consistently fighting CR 21+ creatures (particularly for non-epic characters) as standard fights to be pretty screwy.

So what you still run your level 20 parties through encounters with Orcish highwaymen?

[TheUser]

I'll let Malifice expose answer (it's his party after all, and I'm not familiar with those creatures -nor have MM now) but...
1. If it's 600 feet away, then that creature must not have anything significant for offense either?
2. If it free-falls from that high a distance, it should take at least one full turn to make the whole 600 feet is my guess (but I admit I never really used the fall mechanic to such extent, and nothing in PHB says how long a fall should take -and I stopped physics 20 years ago XD), so the party should have time to react and adapt.
3. Once the creature is within 300 feet, any decent Wizard will have kept Earthbind as a prepared spell (maybe creature has too high a save though?).
Or someone could erect a protective Wall (Stone, Force) to create some cover and force the enemy to come and use its abilities from a narrowed angle.

I'm sure there are better/other ways to act, but not familiar with high level creatures keeping at a high distance. ;)

EDIT: could find some information on both creatures. Ancient Brass Dragon is honestly "meh", as in any properly built party should be able to take care of it without much problem. Solar is... Quite another thing: most of its abilities are not that impressive, but the Slaying Arrow is quite frightening indeed, extremely dangerous for most people except the high-resilience martials. On the plus side, it would fire at disadvantage if long-range, whereas you can expect any party to have at least one with Sharpshooter or Spell Sniper. ;)

The brass dragon can sleep breath, grab one of the party members who falls asleep and fly away with them using wing attacks and dashes (or burrow). If the dragon uses the massive intellect score provided for dirty tactics it will ravage the party. Ok good it grabbed a party member that was asleep and flies away to isolate it. They are asleep and the dragon restarts the combat with that lone party member by opening with a crit + it's other multi-attacks then dropping them 200ft. 4d10+ 8 (the crit bite) + 4d6 +16 (2 claws) and then 20d6.

Averages to around 130 damage. If it thinks you're a caster it will just keep you in it's grip and make sure you can't breath/speak/move your hands to cast and repeatedly attack you for...let's say 3 rounds until you die?

Rinse and repeat with any number of party members...


The Solar is firing down. So sure I mean you could apply disadvantage but it only has to go up and down from the 600ft mark; it's not moving and falling 600ft a round it's hovering around the 600-700ft mark e.g. 600ft on it's turn and 700ft on everyone else's turn and shooting with impunity using teleport to stay overtop of them.

[SharkForce]

So what you still run your level 20 parties through encounters with Orcish highwaymen?

an ancient dragon or a pit fiend are never a random encounter. they should be specific creatures that have names, a history, etc... there is no "ancient red dragon lair", there's "the lair of Vermithrax the Vengeful, who burnt down the City of Townsville because an adventurer who tried to kill Vermithrax used to live there 15 years before", and you don't just wander across it casually, when it shows up, there should be a reason, because that dragon should be a visible part of the setting.

meanwhile, there are plenty of strong creatures that can provide a suitable challenge for high level PCs without cheapening the impact of powerful monsters by treating them like mooks.

a drow mage, a drow priestess of lloth, and 4 drow elite warriors are a hard encounte for that same group of level 16 characters, for example. that's how bounded accuracy works. you don't need to be constantly fighting the generals of hell as if they were nothing special in 5th edition, a group of relatively minor creatures (none of those creatures are above CR 10) can still pose a threat.

this isn't to say you should *never* encounter a CR 21+ creature when you're high level. it just means that they shouldn't be treated the same as orcs # 273 through 281.

[Malifice]

The Solar is firing down.

And the Wizard drops Wall of force or teleports the party away. Or one of a million other shenanigans.

At high level a 5e party can dish out a considerable amount of damage and has access to a vast array of powers.

I certainly don't run my monsters stupid, and they rather regularly deal with CRs in the low 20s.

As they should, because a CR 21 Monster for them is only a hard encounter. According to the 5E DMG they should be able deal with a few of them in a single adventuring day. And I assure you, they can and do.

PCs in my game also have access to a bonus feat at first level, and they are all fairly heavily tooled up with magic items. All of them have their three attunement slots filled up. Those items include whelm, a talisman of the sphere, a robe of stars, a few Ioun stones, Dragon armour, a diadem that turns the wearers wisdom to 21 and grants them a continual protection from evil, and a fragment of the rod of seven parts. In addition there are assorted plus one or two weapons and armour, A bag of holding (containing several diamonds for raise dead and potions of healing of all sorts).

They just found a luck blade after slaying and ancient green dragon.

They are currently in a demi plane completing a series of quests for an ancient Druid order (They just dealt with an ancient green dragon, after dealing with a Titan) in order to find the location of the phylactery of Dragotha.

The latter of whom is an Ancient red Dragon Dracolich (with the spell casting trait) and a few additional abilities granted by the DM (CR 29).

They won't have to deal with him though until they complete their current quest (Which involves slaying a 20th level cleric who has the hand of vecna), leaving the plane and then fighting their way through to the Draco Lichs lair (at which point they should be a round 18th level).

Then it will be off to fight a God.

[TheUser]

And the Wizard drops Wall of force or teleports the party away. Or one of a million other shenanigans.

At high level a 5e party can dish out a considerable amount of damage and has access to a vast array of powers.

I certainly don't run my monsters stupid, and they rather regularly deal with CRs in the low 20s.

As they should, because a CR 21 Monster for them is only a hard encounter. According to the 5E DMG they should be able deal with a few of them in a single adventuring day. And I assure you, they can and do.

PCs in my game also have access to a bonus feat at first level, and they are all fairly heavily tooled up with magic items. All of them have their three attunement slots filled up. Those items include whelm, a talisman of the sphere, a robe of stars, a few Ioun stones, Dragon armour, a diadem that turns the wearers wisdom to 21 and grants them a continual protection from evil, and a fragment of the rod of seven parts. In addition there are assorted plus one or two weapons and armour, A bag of holding (containing several diamonds for raise dead and potions of healing of all sorts).

They just found a luck blade after slaying and ancient green dragon.

They are currently in a demi plane completing a series of quests for an ancient Druid order (They just dealt with an ancient green dragon, after dealing with a Titan) in order to find the location of the phylactery of Dragotha.

The latter of whom is an Ancient red Dragon Dracolich (with the spell casting trait) and a few additional abilities granted by the DM (CR 29).

They won't have to deal with him though until they complete their current quest (Which involves slaying a 20th level cleric who has the hand of vecna), leaving the plane and then fighting their way through to the Draco Lichs lair (at which point they should be a round 18th level).

Then it will be off to fight a God.

Wall of Force meet burrow speed 40ft

but now the truth comes out, stuff you left out

"my level 16 party deals with CR 21 stuff all the time"

neglects to mention bonus feats, loads of magic items and +2 weapons

I don't suppose you had them roll stats?

[Citan]

Wall of Force meet burrow speed 40ft

but now the truth comes out, stuff you left out

"my level 16 party deals with CR 21 stuff all the time"

neglects to mention bonus feats, loads of magic items and +2 weapons

I don't suppose you had them roll stats?
Please, stop right now.
You are at the time just being dishonest for the sake of trying to be right, which is unconstructive.
In the post just before, you were talking about the Solar.
Solar has NO burrow speed.

As for the Dragon, well, if he is stupid enough to try and come down all the way from up there to bring the party frow below, a) there is a 95% chance the party will realize what happens unless the Dragon first flies away far (meaning also letting time for party to plan something) and b) now the Dragon put himself perfectly in the target range of any and every nasty spells and abilities casters and martials could rain down on him (because, while burrowed, only the Frightful Presence would be possibly available and only if the party is indeed aware of its presence, in which case they may have prepared some counters. So it would need to unburrow to attack, at which moment party will unleash everything Readied in worst case).

Same holds true for everything you told in the post about Sleeping breath and the like. 90 foot is a great range, but casters still should have many spells that can reach that distance. Also, since as you and other said you usually don't stumble randomly on dragons, party would probably have prepared the spells they consider the most fit.

Beyond that, it's true that the magnitude of Malifice's magical equipment is (from my little experience) quite higher than usually for a party of that level.
But having at least some of those would be expected nevertheless (at least all the Ioun stones and +1/+2 equipment) for a party of that level. And they also need some smarts to use them in the right manner at the right moment.

Malifice indeed went a bit far in implying that any party of level 16 characters could easily slay such high-CR creatures. It's obviously false, since it depends so much on the party itself.
But just knowing the party is a five-people one, you can expect at least one Wizard/Sorcerer, one Bard/Cleric, and one Rogue/Fighter, which opens many options already.

[Malifice]

Wall of Force meet burrow speed 40ft

but now the truth comes out, stuff you left out

"my level 16 party deals with CR 21 stuff all the time"

neglects to mention bonus feats, loads of magic items and +2 weapons

I don't suppose you had them roll stats?

Well then the Solar or Dragon can fly down 600 feet and burrow under the wall of force if it wants to.

It's a bonus feat at first level. And no, I use point buy.

The magic items are standard for a party of 16th level PCs. In a campaign featuring magic items of course. Which is pretty much all of them, including every single published one to date.

Feel free to sit down and generate random magic items for hoards and so forth under the DMG. 3 to 5 magic items each is par for the course at this level.

They also had the opportunity in Absalom to sell a few magic items and order in a few that they wanted. Whelm was recovered in White plume Mountain. They recovered Aqua and lightning (a matched pair of a Mithril long sword and short sword, both have the finesse quality, one adds 1D6 thunder damage and the other adds 1d6 lightning damage, they allow the casting of fly and the generation of a 10D6 lightning Bolt 1/ short rest), a fragment of the rod of seven parts, the talisman of the sphere, and the diadem during various parts of the adventure path.

I tend to factor in the magic items and the bonus feat by increasing their effective levels by 1-2 when budgeting my encounters. This gives me a slightly higher encounter budget to work with.

The party consists of a CG male half elf Swashbuckler 11/ fighter 5 (Battle Master) who is an agent of the eagle knights and deep undercover (wielding the long sword Aqua and the short sword Lightning) and who just can't say no to a pretty face, a NG female wood elf Moon druid 14/ Paladin 2 with a penchant for cheap ale and big nights out (Dragon armour and a special magic item called the diadem of zosiel that grants her a wisdom score of 21 and a continual protection from good and evil effect) -, a 15th level LN female scourge aasimar Fey warlock (tome) who is an emissary from the fey wild from her mysterious patron (She has a rod of the pact keeper +1 and a robe of stars, and the party have entrusted her with the fragment of the rod of seven parts), a LG female dwarven War cleric 10/ Devotion paladin 6 (Equipped with adamantine full plate and the magical Warhammer whelm, and until recently a +2 shield) of Torag who likes to get around using her boots of flying and acting like a small blonde plump Valkyrie, and a CN male human Lore Bard 15 (who has been studying under the warlock to learn the magic initiate feat) ; a member of the pathfinder society who is slipping towards CE (and now rather interestingly has a luck blade with two wishes) and has developed a rather unhealthy obsession with obtaining the hand of vecna. He also has a wayfinder that has 2 ioun stones is in it.

We also had a Sharpshooter archer fighter 11 in the party, but we haven't seen him for a while. He's having real life girlfriend issues.

So far the toughest fights they have fought have been a Titan and his six gargoyle mooks, an ancient green dragon (it ambushed them immediately after they finished a fight with 8 land sharks and nearly resulted in a TPK), And a Spell Weaver Lich.

The island they are on has presented them with four challenges. They need to complete each challenge for a cabal of Druids. The first challenge was dealing with the Titan. They still have three more to go, and each encounter is a CR of around 24-25 (but is the only encounter they are expected to get for that adventuring day). Each creature is legendary.

They also have quite difficult random encounters to deal with as they move about the demi plane (Advanced land sharks and soforth) and there is a rival party of NPC adventurers that are seeking the same thing they are. That party features an advanced assassin, two 12th level monks, an Efreet and a 20th level cleric of Vecna (with the hand of vecna).

In case you haven't figured it out yet I'm running Age of Worms (plus a smattering of AD and D adventures converted to 5E) set in Golarion and converted for 5E.

[Theodoxus]

Wall of Force meet burrow speed 40ft

but now the truth comes out, stuff you left out

"my level 16 party deals with CR 21 stuff all the time"

neglects to mention bonus feats, loads of magic items and +2 weapons

I don't suppose you had them roll stats?

LOL - that was your take away?

I'm super curious how the party will deal with a 20th level cleric who can simply use Divine Intervention (and being an NPC, being run by the DM, who's granting said DI at 100% chance, how can it possibly be fair?) to avoid/disappear party/send back in time/send forward in time/kill their grandparents before they're born/trap on said demi-plane for eternity by permanently making them forget any spells/powers/abilities exist to get them out... the list can go on and on and on... and then, if they defeat the cleric - because he miraculously used DI 3 days ago to get some fresh fish delivered from his favorite watering hole - they have to face his god?

Maybe gods in Malifice's universe are just superpowered immortals and not god-like... one could hope.

[Malifice]

LOL - that was your take away?

I'm super curious how the party will deal with a 20th level cleric who can simply use Divine Intervention (and being an NPC, being run by the DM, who's granting said DI at 100% chance, how can it possibly be fair?) to avoid/disappear party/send back in time/send forward in time/kill their grandparents before they're born/trap on said demi-plane for eternity by permanently making them forget any spells/powers/abilities exist to get them out... the list can go on and on and on... and then, if they defeat the cleric - because he miraculously used DI 3 days ago to get some fresh fish delivered from his favorite watering hole - they have to face his god?

Maybe gods in Malifice's universe are just superpowered immortals and not god-like... one could hope.

He's already used that ability. I'm not that cruel!

I've created him more as a monster then stating him up as the 20th level PC. I used the archmage as my base (To give him ninth level spells and spell slots), then granted him some unique abilities mirroring those that a cleric of the death domain would have. I gave him cleric spells instead of mage spells and bumped AC up to 20 (Magic armour and a shield and the hand of vecna). I also bumped up his hit dice by 50%. I also gave him proficiency in constitution saves and the war caster feat. Wisdom was increased to 20.

Being a cleric of vecna (and with access to divination magics and divine intervention) With a wisdom and Intelligence score of 20, I have presumed he knows the player characters capabilities. He has a method to escape force cage, and a method to grant himself resistance to radiant damage. Plus a few other tricks up his sleeve. His spell save DC is 19.

For the assassin I used the one from the monster manual, added multi-attack, cunning action, uncanny dodge and the crossbow master feat. Added kenku racial traits, and +1 repeating crossbow (fires an additional round as a bonus action) and armour.

For the monks I am using the martial artist NPCs, but have increased their armour class by 4 each, increased their wisdom and dex scores by 4, increased save DCs by 3, increased damage to 1D10, bonus to hit by three, general proficiency bonus by 1, and given them proficiency in every saving throw. I also converted them to tieflings.

The efreet comes straight from the monster manual. He is noble and owes the cleric one more wish (that I intend to use to screw over the party).

[Malifice]

Malifice indeed went a bit far in implying that any party of level 16 characters could easily slay such high-CR creatures. It's obviously false, since it depends so much on the party itself.
But just knowing the party is a five-people one, you can expect at least one Wizard/Sorcerer, one Bard/Cleric, and one Rogue/Fighter, which opens many options already.

I didn't say the encounters were easy. According to the encounter calculator and XP budgeting system they are in fact hard (and occasionally deadly).

Of course a party is expected to deal with several hard encounters in a single adventuring day.

Deadly encounters are a little bit more problematic. I'm not too worried if it is the only encounter of the adventuring day (they can nova with a bit more freedom, so it all evens out). Although they should be able to do it if it is the only encounter, there is a real risk in a deadly encounter that one or more PC could die. Of course our party features a Bard and a Cleric who both have access to raise dead (and revivify) so death at this level is an economic concern. And the party are carrying around a bag of holding which contains over 12 x 500 GP diamonds.

As long as one of those two remain up at the end of the fight the party can raise any dead members.

The campaign in total has featured around 8 or 9 player character deaths. The druid has died three times, the swashbuckler has died once, the cleric twice, and the bard and warlock once each. They have all been raised or Reincarnated each time.

They also had a gnome wizard who used to adventure with them, but he was eaten by displacer beasts and Perma killed. Vale.

For a campaign that has been running weekly for 2 1/2 years that's not too bad.

Not many DMs run campaigns to high-level. I feel like many in this thread are under estimating the power and resources that high level player characters have.

[PeteNutButter]

Going to have a level 6 Paladin with +9 constitution saves and was thinking that makes concentration rolls for anything under 20 damage not necessary yes?

Unlike attack rolls, rolling a 1 on a save isn't an automatic failure right?

*Anything under 22* damage you mean, since you halve it and round down. I've been in the same boat, and it's quite nice, especially if you're vengeance and don't want to lose concentration on your haste. Paladin 6 is overpowered, and does a solid job of breaking the bounded accuracy. At least they had the good sense to move it from level 2 (in previous editions) to level 6.

[SharkForce]

*Anything under 22* damage you mean, since you halve it and round down. I've been in the same boat, and it's quite nice, especially if you're vengeance and don't want to lose concentration on your haste. Paladin 6 is overpowered, and does a solid job of breaking the bounded accuracy. At least they had the good sense to move it from level 2 (in previous editions) to level 6.

bounded accuracy allows large bonuses actually. it just doesn't allow high DCs.

a DC 25 save is a problem for bounded accuracy. a +10 bonus to make a saving throw does not.

(that said, the general statement that the level 6 paladin aura is powerful is indeed true).

[Motorskills]

My AL-legal Devotion paladin 14 has +13 CON saves, happily runs around with Protection From Evil, Shield of Faith, Aura of Vitality etc.

I heroically made a DC 29 CON save (Concentration) at Dallas EpiCon a couple of weeks ago, the Life Cleric was working overtime to keep me standing - even if my Prot Evil stayed up, I was still taking hits in the 40 - 60HP range from the Death Giant.

Yes it's great, no I don't think it is over-powered, it costs a lot to get that....and frankly the spells the paladin gets aren't all that great. :)

[SVamp]

an ancient dragon or a pit fiend are never a random encounter. they should be specific creatures that have names, a history, etc... there is no "ancient red dragon lair", there's "the lair of Vermithrax the Vengeful, who burnt down the City of Townsville because an adventurer who tried to kill Vermithrax used to live there 15 years before", and you don't just wander across it casually, when it shows up, there should be a reason, because that dragon should be a visible part of the setting.

meanwhile, there are plenty of strong creatures that can provide a suitable challenge for high level PCs without cheapening the impact of powerful monsters by treating them like mooks.

a drow mage, a drow priestess of lloth, and 4 drow elite warriors are a hard encounte for that same group of level 16 characters, for example. that's how bounded accuracy works. you don't need to be constantly fighting the generals of hell as if they were nothing special in 5th edition, a group of relatively minor creatures (none of those creatures are above CR 10) can still pose a threat.

this isn't to say you should *never* encounter a CR 21+ creature when you're high level. it just means that they shouldn't be treated the same as orcs # 273 through 281.

The day I face an ancient dragon as a mook cause he's 'the right CR' is the say I'd quit that game lol. It seems you'd run the type of game I'd love to play. Kudos.

[Zalabim]

CR is a guideline. It's the Encounter xp budget that matters.
And the thing that CR is a guideline for is "PC's under this level might not be able to handle this monster's abilities," which can mean the creature is harder than its XP value indicates.

bounded accuracy allows large bonuses actually. it just doesn't allow high DCs.

a DC 25 save is a problem for bounded accuracy. a +10 bonus to make a saving throw does not.

(that said, the general statement that the level 6 paladin aura is powerful is indeed true).
Actually reverse that. The save DC is what determines the accuracy of the effect, and the save bonus acts like AC in preventing the effect from landing. Saving throw effects are typically more devastating, so saving throw DCs are effectively lowered by using 8 for their base and the roll mechanic favoring the defender. The effects have an impact even on a "miss" to kind of make up for this or vice versa and save DCs are a little easier because of things that have a half effect like fireball and dragon breath. Unarmored with 10 Dex is AC 10, but no proficiency with 10 Dex is like having Dex AC 14 against Dexterity save effects.