How useful is Diplomacy?

[sorcererlover]

Without going TO level of optimization. Just max skill ranks + 6 from skill synergy + charisma bonus + minor equipment like circlet of persuasion. No binding naberius or whatever for the silver tongue.

[Jormengand]

As written, it's one of the most powerful skills in the game, possibly edged out by knowledge which allows you to answer any question with a DC 30 (or lower) check so long as it doesn't concern a monster with more than 20 hit dice. Because it allows you, with a couple of minutes and a decent bonus, to turn anyone helpful, meaning that they are likely to "Protect, back up, heal, aid", "Chat [with], advise, offer limited help [to], [and] advocate" you and they "Will take risks to help you". So long as you can consistently make the DC 20 check, you can change anyone's attitude so that they love you. The epic use, fanatical, is nice but not easy enough to be worth doing.

In practice, your DM almost certainly doesn't use the written rules, so there's no way I can give an answer which isn't DM-dependent.

[DEMON]

In a real game, or on these forums?

Also: see Jormengand's answer.

[sorcererlover]

As written, it's one of the most powerful skills in the game, possibly edged out by knowledge which allows you to answer any question with a DC 30 (or lower) check so long as it doesn't concern a monster with more than 20 hit dice. Because it allows you, with a couple of minutes and a decent bonus, to turn anyone helpful, meaning that they are likely to "Protect, back up, heal, aid", "Chat [with], advise, offer limited help [to], [and] advocate" you and they "Will take risks to help you". So long as you can consistently make the DC 20 check, you can change anyone's attitude so that they love you. The epic use, fanatical, is nice but not easy enough to be worth doing.

In practice, your DM almost certainly doesn't use the written rules, so there's no way I can give an answer which isn't DM-dependent.

How do you do all this without TO level optimization?

[Jormengand]

How do you do all this without TO level optimization?

A half-elf or illumian or +4 CHA race with the persuasive and skill focus (diplomacy) feats, 18 base CHA, and 5 skill ranks in diplomacy and bluff, who has a masterwork tool of diplomacy, gets a +20 bonus to diplomacy checks. Then go make enough diplomacy checks to make anyone you like friendly.

[DEMON]

How do you do all this without TO level optimization?

Basically Half Elf's only chance to grab the spotlight.

[sorcererlover]

A half-elf or illumian or +4 CHA race with the persuasive and skill focus (diplomacy) feats, 18 base CHA, and 5 skill ranks in diplomacy and bluff, who has a masterwork tool of diplomacy, gets a +20 bonus to diplomacy checks. Then go make enough diplomacy checks to make anyone you like friendly.

Persuasive is bluff and intimidate, no diplomacy, but otherwise the math checks out. If you add in sense motive and knowledge:nobility you get a +22 bonus to diplomacy checks at level 2.

But how is a bunch of friendly and helpful NPCs broken? We're talking mostly commoners here, so at best I'm thinking it just lets you accomplish plot related stuff like gathering information, or get their help to accomplish a quest, like hiding you from authorities if you're a thief, or a cleric casting some long duration buff. They're not gonna adventure with you.

Only abuse I can see is if you're caught by a bunch of guards, they let you go unless you're in for some serious crime or there is relatively little chance of them getting caught about releasing you.

[Jormengand]

Persuasive is bluff and intimidate, no diplomacy, but otherwise the math checks out. If you add in sense motive and knowledge:nobility you get a +22 bonus to diplomacy checks at level 2.

But how is a bunch of friendly and helpful NPCs broken? We're talking mostly commoners here, so at best I'm thinking it just lets you accomplish plot related stuff like gathering information, or get their help to accomplish a quest, like hiding you from authorities if you're a thief, or a cleric casting some long duration buff. They're not gonna adventure with you.

I meant Negotiator. And unfortunately, the Sense Motive and K(N) don't work:


If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

It's a "Do you have one of these skills y/n?" check, not "How many of these skills do you have?"

You can turn the BBEG helpful. You can turn any NPC helpful. Oh, the high priest of whatever wants you to go on a quest? Neat, what level cleric (or at the very least, what level adept) is the high priest of whatever? What level is the king, and what kind of support can the king offer you? Diplomacy is basically mind control on a budget.

Remember, they're likely to "Protect, back up, heal, aid", "Chat [with], advise, offer limited help [to], [and] advocate" you and they "Will take risks to help you". That's a LOT. That's MAJOR. Especially if you can convince anyone at all relevant to the campaign setting.

[DEMON]

And unfortunately, the Sense Motive and K(N) don't work:

It's a "Do you have one of these skills y/n?" check, not "How many of these skills do you have?"


I'm fairly sure this course of thought is not shared by all.
Synergy gives an unnamed bonus and thus should stack with itself.

[daremetoidareyo]

Diplomacy is awesome. Even if you use the diplomacy fix from the giant himself, the skill allows you to make allies with NPCs who hold more power than you do. Guards, jailors, merchants, politicians, rival NPCs with class skills. You can mobilize a group to lend help towards a cause. But to reap these benefits you need a DM who gives you a little downtime and allows you to explore a town. That DM has to like the town too. A DM who treats the town as a place to dump loot and buy new gear like a videogame isn't going to properly administer rampant diplomacy.

When in town, you should diplomacy the following types of people:
Sheriffs/officers of military: If the DM has these guys named, get them to friendly. It will help when you get arrested. If you don't get arrested, good job.
Anyone who you do trade with: don't use it for haggling, use it for information retrieval. Being able to ask who bought what when is situationally useful
Your guild: Anyone of influence is a potential quest giver.
Your nemesis guild: Friendly faces across the aisle can purchase you lattitude for political shenanigans
The church: Someday, someone's gonna die, and you will need help.
Specialists in wierd subjects: If there is a weird specialist in a town, befriend them, they are almost always future plot points or potential arrows in your quiver of badassity if you need to solve a specific type of problem.
People who hate the town or its government: If bad stuff goes down, you need to have sway with the new power brokers.
Monstrous beings near the town: Make a mini-quest to befriend the local goblin brigands or whatever and make them like you and your kith. This will allow you build unlikely allies in the face of existential threats.
Anyone who has to the power to order you dead: See sheriffs, but mayors, assassin guilds, etc.

Be the Little Finger that you want to see in the world.

Now this is about managing probability. Having people be friendly towards you doesn't mean that they will risk their life for you, but they will feel bad about having to harm you. Having this loose network of friendly NPCs allows you to problem solve politically some problems that you may be more likely to approach violently. You can get farmers block supply lines by wrecking a section of road, instigate new legal restrictions by getting magistrates to make curfews/travel paper logs, imply that you need a villain dead to a master assassin because he poses a threat to their illegal enterprise, etc.

[Jormengand]

I'm fairly sure this course of thought is not shared by all.
Synergy gives an unnamed bonus and thus should stack with itself.

Stacking doesn't come into it. It doesn't say "You get a +2 bonus for each of these skills" it says "If you have any of these skills, you get a single +2 bonus irrespective of how many of them you have". It's not that there are multiple bonuses that don't stack, it's that there's a single bonus that you either have or you don't.

[sorcererlover]

You can turn the BBEG helpful. You can turn any NPC helpful. Oh, the high priest of whatever wants you to go on a quest? Neat, what level cleric (or at the very least, what level adept) is the high priest of whatever? What level is the king, and what kind of support can the king offer you? Diplomacy is basically mind control on a budget.

Remember, they're likely to "Protect, back up, heal, aid", "Chat [with], advise, offer limited help [to], [and] advocate" you and they "Will take risks to help you". That's a LOT. That's MAJOR. Especially if you can convince anyone at all relevant to the campaign setting.

Can you be a little more specific? Like how is a helpful king or a helpful priest broken? All I see is you getting some mundane supplies and maybe a magic equipment relative to your character level.


Diplomacy is awesome. Even if you use the diplomacy fix from the giant himself, the skill allows you to make allies with NPCs who hold more power than you do. Guards, jailors, merchants, politicians, rival NPCs with class skills. You can mobilize a group to lend help towards a cause. But to reap these benefits you need a DM who gives you a little downtime and allows you to explore a town. That DM has to like the town too. A DM who treats the town as a place to dump loot and buy new gear like a videogame isn't going to properly administer rampant diplomacy.

When in town, you should diplomacy the following types of people:
Sheriffs/officers of military: If the DM has these guys named, get them to friendly. It will help when you get arrested. If you don't get arrested, good job.
Anyone who you do trade with: don't use it for haggling, use it for information retrieval. Being able to ask who bought what when is situationally useful
Your guild: Anyone of influence is a potential quest giver.
Your nemesis guild: Friendly faces across the aisle can purchase you lattitude for political shenanigans
The church: Someday, someone's gonna die, and you will need help.
Specialists in wierd subjects: If there is a weird specialist in a town, befriend them, they are almost always future plot points or potential arrows in your quiver of badassity if you need to solve a specific type of problem.
People who hate the town or its government: If bad stuff goes down, you need to have sway with the new power brokers.
Monstrous beings near the town: Make a mini-quest to befriend the local goblin brigands or whatever and make them like you and your kith. This will allow you build unlikely allies in the face of existential threats.
Anyone who has to the power to order you dead: See sheriffs, but mayors, assassin guilds, etc.

Be the Little Finger that you want to see in the world.

Now this is about managing probability. Having people be friendly towards you doesn't mean that they will risk their life for you, but they will feel bad about having to harm you. Having this loose network of friendly NPCs allows you to problem solve politically some problems that you may be more likely to approach violently. You can get farmers block supply lines by wrecking a section of road, instigate new legal restrictions by getting magistrates to make curfews/travel paper logs, imply that you need a villain dead to a master assassin because he poses a threat to their illegal enterprise, etc.

Nice list, thanks. I'll make great us of it!

[Jormengand]

Can you be a little more specific? Like how is a helpful king or a helpful priest broken? All I see is you getting some mundane supplies and maybe a magic equipment relative to your character level.

The high priest will protect you, back you up, and will take risks to help you. That means if you ask him to do a thing, he will do it even at significant risk to himself. You can literally make the king do what you want! That's insane!

[sorcererlover]

The high priest will protect you, back you up, and will take risks to help you. That means if you ask him to do a thing, he will do it even at significant risk to himself. You can literally make the king do what you want! That's insane!

Helpful is not fanatic though. Like lets say you want this king's advisor dead. You diplomacy the king to helpful. He's not gonna outright murder the king's advisor (unless he's an evil king), he will probably give you complete access and all the resources you need to conduct your investigation, but he's not gonna murder him without proof.

On a more evil viewpoint, you are out to steal some sort of thing from the castle's armory, and someone caught wind of your plans and alerted the king. You could diplomacy the king to saying that guy is a liar, and the king will protect you in the sense that he won't imprison until that guy comes up with hard proof, but I doubt that if that guy does bring hard proof, the king won't let you go unpunished. he might secretly arrange your escape but, I don't see how any of this is "broken".

I also don't think the high priest will adventure with you, being at your beck and call like a summoned monster just because he's helpful.

But I am a noob at diplomacy, so... could you please be more specific on why having everyone friendly or helpful is broken if you can't apply it in combat?

[DEMON]

Stacking doesn't come into it. It doesn't say "You get a +2 bonus for each of these skills" it says "If you have any of these skills, you get a single +2 bonus irrespective of how many of them you have". It's not that there are multiple bonuses that don't stack, it's that there's a single bonus that you either have or you don't.

Hmm, I can't say I agree with this reading, but then again, I can't say it's absolutely not valid, either.

My reading of "if you have x, y, or z, you get a +2 bonus" is as follows: While it doesn't say you get the +2 for each skill synergy, it doesn't explicitly say you don't, either.

You have x? Cool, +2 bonus. You have y? Cool, +2 bonus. You have z? Cool, +2 bonus. What sort of bonuses are these? Unnamed? Awesome, then they stuck.

Again, as I have said before (the Duskblade discussion, where I'm most definitely in the minority, but I still stand by my ruling of Full Attack Channeling), I'm not a native speaker, so when it comes to arguing semantics, I might be missing something obvious, grammar-wise. But at the same time, when the topic is actually disputed, I'm against presenting one's option/ruling as the one and only way it tends to be ruled at the tables.

[Jormengand]

Helpful is not fanatic though. Like lets say you want this king's advisor dead. You diplomacy the king to helpful. He's not gonna outright murder the king's advisor (unless he's an evil king), he will probably give you complete access and all the resources you need to conduct your investigation, but he's not gonna murder him without proof.

On a more evil viewpoint, you are out to steal some sort of thing from the castle's armory, and someone caught wind of your plans and alerted the king. You could diplomacy the king to saying that guy is a liar, and the king will protect you in the sense that he won't imprison until that guy comes up with hard proof, but I doubt that if that guy does bring hard proof, the king won't let you go unpunished. he might secretly arrange your escape but, I don't see how any of this is "broken".

I also don't think the high priest will adventure with you, being at your beck and call like a summoned monster just because he's helpful.

But I am a noob at diplomacy, so... could you please be more specific on why having everyone friendly or helpful is broken if you can't apply it in combat?

I mean, there's a difference between what makes sense (they won't adventure with you just because they like you) and what's written in the actual rules (they will go out of their way to, and take risks to, help you just because they like you).

[prototype00]

I've always wondered how "Helpful" would look if you Diplomacied a hostile Orc Lord mid fight? (It's hard but technically doable with Naberius)

Immediately break off hostilities?
Turn on his allies and start fighting them?

Prototype00

[Jormengand]

I've always wondered how "Helpful" would look if you Diplomacied a hostile Orc Lord mid fight? (It's hard but technically doable with Naberius)

Immediately break off hostilities?
Turn on his allies and start fighting them?

Prototype00

One of those two, yes. "Protect" or "Advocate" you while "Tak[ing] risks to help you."

[RoboEmperor]

I mean, there's a difference between what makes sense (they won't adventure with you just because they like you) and what's written in the actual rules (they will go out of their way to, and take risks to, help you just because they like you).

People do that in real life. They follow/worship people they think are awesome and will take risks to help them. Death note (anime) had strangers helping Light because they believed in what he was doing, so... there's no reason why an exceptional superhuman (a.k.a. PCs) can induce such worship with their silver tongue. Hitler in WWII is a real life example.

Going out of their way and taking risks to help you doesn't mean blind idiot mindraped slave though. A mercenary might adventure with you for free for a while, an amount that he thinks is enough, before demanding payment or leaving, but definitely not a high priest, unless he's excommunicated or needs to travel to a new city. Mercenary could also just offer a "friendship discount" instead of free service. Same with merchants.

I think diplomacy is overrated. The only real abuse I found is hostile->helpful in 1 round or less, and even then, the DM can say "BBEG isn't in the mood for listening so your words fall on deaf ears".

I just think "Great Friend" for Helpful. He might give you his car, he might not, depends on the guy.


I've always wondered how "Helpful" would look if you Diplomacied a hostile Orc Lord mid fight? (It's hard but technically doable with Naberius)

Immediately break off hostilities?
Turn on his allies and start fighting them?

Prototype00

If the Orc is a grunt, the grunt will be like "Is there another way?" and the chief will be like "Kill Him too!". No different than Charm Monster.

[Jormengand]

People do that in real life. They follow/worship people they think are awesome and will take risks to help them. Death note (anime) had strangers helping Light because they believed in what he was doing, so... there's no reason why an exceptional superhuman (a.k.a. PCs) can induce such worship with their silver tongue. Hitler in WWII is a real life example.

Going out of their way and taking risks to help you doesn't mean blind idiot mindraped slave though. A mercenary might adventure with you for free for a while, an amount that he thinks is enough, before demanding payment or leaving, but definitely not a high priest, unless he's excommunicated or needs to travel to a new city. Mercenary could also just offer a "friendship discount" instead of free service. Same with merchants.

I think diplomacy is overrated. The only real abuse I found is hostile->helpful in 1 round or less, and even then, the DM can say "BBEG isn't in the mood for listening so your words fall on deaf ears".

I just think "Great Friend" for Helpful. He might give you his car, he might not, depends on the guy.

I mean sure diplomacy can not work the way it says in the rules if the DM changes it to work in a way that makes sense. I never denied that.

[RoboEmperor]

I mean sure diplomacy can not work the way it says in the rules if the DM changes it to work in a way that makes sense. I never denied that.

I just think you are overstating "Protect, back up, heal, aid" quite a bit. Nothing more. A helpful king or mayor is helpful, but that's it, not broken. A helpful guard captain is not gonna forsake all of his moral values just for you. His definition of "protect" might be to properly rehabilitate you and keep you imprisoned beyond your sentence until he is sure you're a changed man.

No DM change or houseruling.

[Jormengand]

His definition of "protect" might be to properly rehabilitate you and keep you imprisoned beyond your sentence until he is sure you're a changed man.

I mean sure if the DM wants to twist the rules against you then Diplomacy is terrible.

Knowledge allows you to answer questions about your speciality, but it doesn't say that the answers you get are correct!

[Baby Gary]

in most of the games that I play high priests are usually epic clerics or some mash up of divine stuff. get them to fanatic and you have your self a new minion, with epic spellcasting (because your DM gave it to them so if something really big ever came up) I think that is OP

side note, there is no limit on how many fanatic people you can have at once so just go through the town walking and then the entire town will follow you, die for you, you get the point.

[eggynack]

It's a "Do you have one of these skills y/n?" check, not "How many of these skills do you have?"
As a counterpoint, the skills actually granting the bonuses are structured the other way. "If you have 5 or more ranks in bluff, you get a +2 bonus..." and the other two skills are listed without mention of the surrounding skills as well. Thus, while the rules do seem to construct these bonuses as a y/n as you've stated, they also construct them as three separate bonuses that, by the rules, should stack just fine. Nothing about the diplomacy "or" construction particularly overrides this set of bonuses you're getting, as far as I can tell, and you'd clearly run a +6 if the line in diplomacy weren't there at all.

[prototype00]

People do that in real life. They follow/worship people they think are awesome and will take risks to help them. Death note (anime) had strangers helping Light because they believed in what he was doing, so... there's no reason why an exceptional superhuman (a.k.a. PCs) can induce such worship with their silver tongue. Hitler in WWII is a real life example.

Going out of their way and taking risks to help you doesn't mean blind idiot mindraped slave though. A mercenary might adventure with you for free for a while, an amount that he thinks is enough, before demanding payment or leaving, but definitely not a high priest, unless he's excommunicated or needs to travel to a new city. Mercenary could also just offer a "friendship discount" instead of free service. Same with merchants.

I think diplomacy is overrated. The only real abuse I found is hostile->helpful in 1 round or less, and even then, the DM can say "BBEG isn't in the mood for listening so your words fall on deaf ears".

I just think "Great Friend" for Helpful. He might give you his car, he might not, depends on the guy.



If the Orc is a grunt, the grunt will be like "Is there another way?" and the chief will be like "Kill Him too!". No different than Charm Monster.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's like Charm Monster basically, without the magic. The leader could still ask him to kill me and he might do it depending on his relationships with the Orc lord.


One of those two, yes. "Protect" or "Advocate" you while "Tak[ing] risks to help you."

Sure, that's why you always attempt to diplomance the biggest guy there.

Hmm Voice of the Dragon + Guidance of the Avatar is already a simple combo for +30 diplomacy. Not too difficult for a Chameleon to manage...

[rel]

Diplomacy is strong enough that almost no one uses it as written.

It lets you make friends with the powerful. Help that is trivial to a powerful character is a HUGE boon to a low level diplomancer.

Let me explain by flipping things around for a moment. As a PC have you ever:

done a quest for a poor NPC pro bono? I have. Many times.

handed over a pitance in your eyes (say 80gp in copper) to a friendly NPC? Again, I have.

dropped a powerful spell to help someone on a whim? I once revivified a random commoner because he was fortunate enough to get killed while standing next to me.

Offered a bit of covert help to some street level group of scrubs because you liked them better than their competition? I never did this personally but I have seen it happen.

Overthrown a two bit overlord because his peasants seemed sad? Again, I haven't done it but I have seen it.

Diplomacy lets you be the NPC in those kinds of scenarios and get someone at a much higher tier of power trivially solve a problem for you.

[Ivanhoe]

I have never quite understood why people considered the diplomacy skill as broken. In that, I would second sorcererlover's initial concerns.

What diplomacy does is highly dependent on the npc it is used on, the situation and how the GM interprets it, in particular the "take risks" part.
True, it is very useful, and at high levels when you can turn people from hostile to helpful in combat in 1 round (-10 penalty to check) it also is very powerful, better than the "charm" spells line (which only get npc to "friendly" maximum). But then we are talking about levels where people, fly, kill 100 opponents in a round, teleport, dominate, wish etc.

Something to consider:
1) The diplomacy effect has no fixed duration. So, it could last quite long - but it is constantly influenced by new things happening to and interactions with the npc. If you mistreat the npc, the attitude changes again. Favorable/unfavorable conditions might come up etc.
Examples:
You turned a guard friendly or helpful first, but then his true friends/colleagues or officer turn up and change his behavior again. It is up to the GM to see which attitude wins. A neutral guard generally not enthusiastic about his job may look the other way and only pay lip service to his officer when helping the character. A lawful neutral guard convinced of what he does (say, having done an oath to protect a house/castle whatever that has always been guarded by his family), will not do what the character wants and deliver him to his officer for trying to intrude/trespass. He'll be "helpful" or "friendly", though, in that he asks his officer to treat you fairly or even lightly (taking risks in your behalf).
An evil hill giant may be convinced to not kill you, but not change his view on the world. He might expect the character to go with him to raid a helpless village and still cheat/try to murder him afterwards, even if he believes he's an OK guy (because he is evil).

2)"Helpful" is the maximum you can achieve without epic rules. That is fairly limited. When people take risks to help you it does not mean that they will throw away their lives for you. They will also not love you. They will be helpful - that is all, and completely up to the GM to interpret.
At the other end of the spectrum, "hostile" does not mean "hates you". They will likely attack you but not risk everything they have for it or do it when there are better alternatives. It is not the worst attitude an npc can have towards your character.
This is important in that it means when npc hate you, for instance in an extreme case a lich or demons out for your soul you have no chance at all to use diplomacy with any effect on them. That can only achieved by magic (if at all; undead e.g being immune to mind-affecting etc)

[Pugwampy]

If DM is lenient with the rules and allows retries , very very useful.

Half your time is down time running in a town fulll of fool NPC suckers. A quarter or possibly 10 percent of your encounters are humanoids that can be reasoned with .

[Twurps]

The skepticism to the power of the diplomacy skill seems to revolve a lot around 'but that doesn't mean they will fight for you?'
If that's your worry, you're not doing diplomacy right. As a good diplomancer you don't have to fight. EVER. why would you? you can amass great power just by befriending people with power. (who you get close to by first befriending their friends/advisors/etc) Those people can easily eliminate whatever risk/obstacle was in your way, without putting themselves in harms way. Even if they don't: with great power comes great wealth. Hire a few guys to solve your problem for you.

If the king is your friend, he still won't fight for you, but he can send out a small detachment of armed men at whatever your problem is. There's very little that a 'regular' group of 4 adventurers can accomplish at lvl2, that the kings army can't.

That's why I've never seen any DM use the diplomacy rules RAW and I'm happy for it.

[Buufreak]

Going by the exact letter of RAW, you can do damn near everything and anything with a Diplo check as long as there is someone to use it on. No TO, no metagaming, no nothing. Just a roll of the die and adding of bonus. That's it.

Now, how a DM wants to actually use it is almost a guarantee to be anything but.

[martixy]

This quite accurately illustrates the RAW of diplomaNcy(or at least the perceived brokenness):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F74mBRjwTc

[Ivanhoe]

The skepticism to the power of the diplomacy skill seems to revolve a lot around 'but that doesn't mean they will fight for you?'
If that's your worry, you're not doing diplomacy right. As a good diplomancer you don't have to fight. EVER. why would you? you can amass great power just by befriending people with power. (who you get close to by first befriending their friends/advisors/etc) Those people can easily eliminate whatever risk/obstacle was in your way, without putting themselves in harms way. Even if they don't: with great power comes great wealth. Hire a few guys to solve your problem for you.

If the king is your friend, he still won't fight for you, but he can send out a small detachment of armed men at whatever your problem is. There's very little that a 'regular' group of 4 adventurers can accomplish at lvl2, that the kings army can't.

That's why I've never seen any DM use the diplomacy rules RAW and I'm happy for it.

I am not sure where you see the RAW that leads to "amass great power".
If manage to get a king helpful he will be that. But what does it mean? That is up the the GM to decide. There is no RAW to support that the king will "send out a small detachment of armed men". It could be that that is what the king does given the personality of the king, his alignment and the value of the armed men.
A king actually wants to be helpful for a great many people, but not all will get those men. Again, up to the GM to decide what the matter is.

Consider the following (relatively low-level) scenario:
The group has to somehow see the king but are completely unknown in royal capital city. There goal is to find support of a 100 men-at-arms to save their village from attack (or whatever).
They'll at first have to even get into the presence of the king. But, say, during a public parade they get close enough for a rushed check to get the king's attention to turn him from indifferent to helpful "Sire...my father has fought for your army once - please hear the request of your humble servant"...
The king will then be "helpful". But what could that mean? It would mean then that he'll grant you enough time to make your case (he takes risks to do so, because what king listens to all subjects coming to him with their petty interests?). What he'll decide then may be influenced by another diplomacy check, the GM may require actual roleplaying or whatever.
Even IF the group then gets the small detachment to help them - these men again are no slaves to the group and will possibly desert if treated badly. The king, possibly not very strong-willed, could be convinced not to change his orders that the men-at-arms only accompany the group for some way, in case an opponent npc is among the king's advisors (again a conflicting diplomacy use/turn of events as outlined in the skill, meaning an npc with a higher diplomacy roll will "win" vs the character eventually).
Now, if the king were evil or would never send men of his for other quests, that "helpful" could mean a completely different reaction...

[johnbragg]

This quite accurately illustrates the RAW of diplomacy(or at least the perceived brokenness):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F74mBRjwTc

Nice. But that's better modeled as a Bluff check (+20 to target's Sense Motive) or even a series of Bluff checks. He didn't get to the Diplomacy check where the adventurer persuades the guard to let the adventurer go while the guard goes to go into exile, never speaking of his "crime".

(I'm okay with ridiculously-high DCs shading into spell effects, personally.)

[martixy]

Nice. But that's better modeled as a Bluff check (+20 to target's Sense Motive) or even a series of Bluff checks. He didn't get to the Diplomacy check where the adventurer persuades the guard to let the adventurer go while the guard goes to go into exile, never speaking of his "crime".

(I'm okay with ridiculously-high DCs shading into spell effects, personally.)

My bad. Added the missing N.

[Jormengand]

I am not sure where you see the RAW that leads to "amass great power".
If manage to get a king helpful he will be that. But what does it mean? That is up the the GM to decide. There is no RAW to support that the king will "send out a small detachment of armed men". It could be that that is what the king does given the personality of the king, his alignment and the value of the armed men.

There is RAW which supports that he will take risks to protect, heal, back up, and advocate you, though. The king will take risks to help you is pretty major unless the DM is deliberately a jerk about it.

[johnbragg]

There is RAW which supports that he will take risks to protect, heal, back up, and advocate you, though. The king will take risks to help you is pretty major unless the DM is deliberately a jerk about it.

The thing is, "take risks" covers an enormous amount of ground. The king might risk wasting a squadron's time. Or he might risk the fate of the kingdom.

As a tangent, I'd say that if you've successfully gotten your problem to the king, it's either a king-sized problem and getting it into his inbox is a worthy accomplishment (have some XP) Or it's a trivial problem for the king, but you've leveraged your abilities to get that problem solved. (have some XP.)

It doesn't mean that you are now the Svengali or Rasputin who has permanently brainwashed the king to do your bidding. (Unless it's that kind of campaign.)

EDIT: The king will only let you out of jail so many times as a result of that initial Diplomancy roll.

[RoboEmperor]

The skepticism to the power of the diplomacy skill seems to revolve a lot around 'but that doesn't mean they will fight for you?'
If that's your worry, you're not doing diplomacy right. As a good diplomancer you don't have to fight. EVER. why would you? you can amass great power just by befriending people with power. (who you get close to by first befriending their friends/advisors/etc) Those people can easily eliminate whatever risk/obstacle was in your way, without putting themselves in harms way. Even if they don't: with great power comes great wealth. Hire a few guys to solve your problem for you.

If the king is your friend, he still won't fight for you, but he can send out a small detachment of armed men at whatever your problem is. There's very little that a 'regular' group of 4 adventurers can accomplish at lvl2, that the kings army can't.

That's why I've never seen any DM use the diplomacy rules RAW and I'm happy for it.

XP. If you get someone else to do the job for you, you don't get xp. Also, highly unlikely you have access to a king at level 2, him being in a castle and you being in a village.


There is RAW which supports that he will take risks to protect, heal, back up, and advocate you, though. The king will take risks to help you is pretty major unless the DM is deliberately a jerk about it.

Two negatives make a positive. If you're a jerk trying to use diplomacy to murder an entire town and get away scott free, the DM can be a jerk about it and end your adventuring life, all within RAW, because a helpful guard captain is never going to let you get away with slaughter, because duty beats personal feelings, unless he's a crooked guard.

If you guys read 1st party adventure paths, it spells out what helpful NPCs do, and most of the time it's avoiding combat, receiving an item, and gaining information.

[johnbragg]

XP. If you get someone else to do the job for you, you don't get xp.

Not as much, anyway. In my view, persuade authorities to help counts as an encounter. There is a task for the PCs to accomplish, there are stakes for success or failure. And there are mechanics to support determining whether the PCs succeed or fail.


Also, highly unlikely you have access to a king at level 2, him being in a castle and you being in a village.

OTOH, if you manage to get yourself an audience with the king, and convince him, you have achieved a great deal. That's most likely several noncombat encounters.

Seriously, if your 1st level party discovers that there is a big ol' orc horde camped a week away from your village, and you get to the Duke's castle in the local small city and convince him of the threat and an army rides out to save your village, guess what?

You just saved your village!

[Buufreak]

Two negatives make a positive.

... Did you just try to explain game mechanics that specifically ignore any mention of negative numbers, and for damn good reason, with a mathematical rule about multiplying negative numbers?


If you guys read 1st party adventure paths, it spells out what helpful NPCs do, and most of the time it's avoiding combat, receiving an item, and gaining information.

Yes, because obviously the only possible interpretation of rules come from 1st party materials, and equally obviously all 1st party material is sound tight examples of perfect integration of systems, sub systems, abilities and features, and in absolutely no way ever contradicts itself in ways that make everything stated prior meaningless.

[johnbragg]

Yes, because obviously the only possible interpretation of rules come from 1st party materials, and equally obviously all 1st party material is sound tight examples of perfect integration of systems, sub systems, abilities and features, and in absolutely no way ever contradicts itself in ways that make everything stated prior meaningless.

All that aside, 1st party materials are solid evidence of what RAI is. Since it's written by the same team (more or less) that wrote the RAW.

[Buufreak]

All that aside, 1st party materials are solid evidence of what RAI is. Since it's written by the same team (more or less) that wrote the RAW.

The same "team" that can't even consistently produce tables for books? The same "team" that contradicts itself in nearly every other book? The same "team" that brought us the truenamer? I think I will take my chances working outside their intent.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate here, that pure RAW diplomacy can be not broken without TO stuff.

Actually IIRC, NPCs do help you fight/clear a dungeon if you get them to helpful, but they take a share of the XP.

I think RAI for diplomacy is how it's used in the 1st party adventure paths. A helpful NPC helps you achieve your cause, but they are all either noncombatants or helps you out of combat, or they are at your ECL and take a share of the XP. None of them ever do your job for you, because frankly your party is the strongest entity in the immediate region and only your party can save the crisis at hand. Reaching a king to do your job for you requires massive downtime unless you start in the same city as the king is in.

All this stuff saying you can turn a high priest or a king into your personal pet is ludicrous.

As I said before, hostile->helpful within 1 round breaks the game without question, but before that diplomacy bard did that in a game I played, he just went around getting the party free food, free lodging, information, discounts at merchants, and let us avoid punishment for small crimes. Hardly broken.

[daremetoidareyo]

I think a lot of these arguments come down to what should be complex skill checks. 1 diplomacy check to switch an NPC to Friendly is one thing. You will need follow-up diplomacy and bluff checks per request that taxes resources from the recipient. At least that's what me and other DM's I know do. 1 diplomacy check to establish your value and follow-up diplomacy checks to make requests: bigger requests are made with penalties, and anything that would transgress the NPC's alignment is either forbidden or has a huge check modifier.

The Epic rules on fanatic are a different story altogether

[johnbragg]

The same "team" that can't even consistently produce tables for books? The same "team" that contradicts itself in nearly every other book? The same "team" that brought us the truenamer? I think I will take my chances working outside their intent.

So, take your chances with legalistic interpretations of their equally well-crafted RAW?

I'm not sure what you're advocating here.

I'm saying that published WOTC adventures give case studies of how Team WOTC expected things to work. Yes, Team WOTC was sloppy and inconsistent much of the time. But we can get a general idea of what the designers expected us to do at our tables.

That may conflict with the RAW the designers wrote. OK, but the fact that RAW and RAI don't line up is an important data point. Choosing RAI over RAW is an option. An option with its own tradeoffs--RAI is even less precise than RAW.

But I can't quite wrap my mind around rubbishing RAI because the designers were sloppy and inconsistent--and then taking a fundamentalist attitude towards the RAW that issued from those same sloppy, inconsistent designers.

[Ivanhoe]

As a side note, nobody I know of is arguing that the spell "Charm Person" is broken. So why should the diplomacy skill be?

[RoboEmperor]

As a side note, nobody I know of is arguing that the spell "Charm Person" is broken. So why should the diplomacy skill be?

Will save at a +5 saving throw. Enchantment immunity/removal is super common. Level 1 spell protection from x stops it.

Diplomacy on the other hand cannot be blocked without making the target deaf.

But in exchange, charm monster is almost as good as dominate monster if you managed to somehow beat their defenses.

[johnbragg]

As a side note, nobody I know of is arguing that the spell "Charm Person" is broken. So why should the diplomacy skill be?

1. Charm person is limited in duration, which the skill check isn't.

2. I remember text that basically imposes a backlash effect--when the charm wears off, the target tends to resent it.

EDIT: Can anybody find the actual text for that backlash effect? It's not in the spell description.....

3. And of course, charm person is a spell. Only spells are allowed to break the game world. :smallbiggrin:

[Buufreak]

So, take your chances with legalistic interpretations of their equally well-crafted RAW?

I'm not sure what you're advocating here.

I'm saying that published WOTC adventures give case studies of how Team WOTC expected things to work. Yes, Team WOTC was sloppy and inconsistent much of the time. But we can get a general idea of what the designers expected us to do at our tables.

That may conflict with the RAW the designers wrote. OK, but the fact that RAW and RAI don't line up is an important data point. Choosing RAI over RAW is an option. An option with its own tradeoffs--RAI is even less precise than RAW.

But I can't quite wrap my mind around rubbishing RAI because the designers were sloppy and inconsistent--and then taking a fundamentalist attitude towards the RAW that issued from those same sloppy, inconsistent designers.

My point is RAI is subjective, with no well set standard, and as such is foolish to try to establish a basis for use.


1. Charm person is limited in duration, which the skill check isn't.

2. I remember text that basically imposes a backlash effect--when the charm wears off, the target tends to resent it.

EDIT: Can anybody find the actual text for that backlash effect? It's not in the spell description.....

3. And of course, charm person is a spell. Only spells are allowed to break the game world. :smallbiggrin:

3.1. Or powers.

[Jay R]

It depends on your DM.
It depends on your DM.
It depends on your DM.

Really. It depends on your DM. Trust me.

[martixy]

My point is RAI is subjective, with no well set standard, and as such is foolish to try to establish a basis for use.

Counterpoint: RAW isn't the game and isn't what happens at the table.

[Gnaeus]

As a side note, nobody I know of is arguing that the spell "Charm Person" is broken. So why should the diplomacy skill be?

So, my party of low teen adventurers is on a world spanning quest. In it, we find ourselves in a city full of undead ruled by an epic Lich. (This actually happened in a game). The Lich interrogated us as to why we are there. My Chameleon had no trouble hitting diplomacy DCs in the 40s. We don't play with RAW, but if we had, one minute later, the epic Lich would think of himself as our friend. He would at that point be likely to transform from an antagonist to an ally. He would freely share information possessed by a millennia old godlike intellect. He would pass information that we weren't to be harmed. He would open the markets of the city to us. He might cast spells on our behalf or assign a flunky to do so for him. He would probably write a letter of introduction to other non-hostile rulers. These are all trivial to him, but huge to us. He's immune to mind affecting, but not diplomacy.

In game, even without RAW, the DM took my massive diplomacy into account and ruled that the Lich found us polite and looked on us favorably. He didn't go out of his way to help us, as RAW would make him do. But he listened to us. He traded information. He allowed us free passage in his city and assigned a flunky we could contact for future negotiations. All to his benefit, of course, but that's a pretty good reaction from an undead thing for a group of murderhobos. It completely transformed a sizable chunk of the campaign in a way no spell could match.

I would absolutely agree that RAW diplomacy is the best skill in the game, and even without RAW it still very likely could be. Even if you can't hostile>friendly in a round, being able to improve the disposition of anyone who will talk to you, including the movers and shakers of the game world, transforms campaigns in a very positive way.

[awa]

there is also in combat use, using diplomacy as a full rnd action gives you a -10 penalty but if you have a +20 modifier that means you have a roughly 50% chance of stopping an attacker from attacking you by changing them from hostile to unfriendly no matter how powerful they are and unlike spells this only gets easier as your skill improves but the dc does not.

Yes dc 60 making them your friend is unlikely without some investment but not trying to kill you is often good enough

[RoboEmperor]

there is also in combat use, using diplomacy as a full rnd action gives you a -10 penalty but if you have a +20 modifier that means you have a roughly 50% chance of stopping an attacker from attacking you by changing them from hostile to unfriendly no matter how powerful they are and unlike spells this only gets easier as your skill improves but the dc does not.

Yes dc 60 making them your friend is unlikely without some investment but not trying to kill you is often good enough

Unfriendly = slavery from you

[daremetoidareyo]

there is also in combat use, using diplomacy as a full rnd action gives you a -10 penalty but if you have a +20 modifier that means you have a roughly 50% chance of stopping an attacker from attacking you by changing them from hostile to unfriendly no matter how powerful they are and unlike spells this only gets easier as your skill improves but the dc does not.

Yes dc 60 making them your friend is unlikely without some investment but not trying to kill you is often good enough

If they're lawful, it's actually roughly a 50% chance that they feel terrible for killing you anyway under captain's orders. But, if you're chaotic and planning longterm and get a contingent resurrection SLA, that is the first cobblestone towards alignment conversion.

[Luccan]

Unfriendly = slavery from you

Depending on the person in question, sure. Which also equals still alive.

[prototype00]

Depending on the person in question, sure. Which also equals still alive.

I think this is the important bit here. It depends on the person that you're diplomancing, and it isn't mind control.

I mean that's not a call to be overly harsh or anything, but a friendly Watch Captain is going to behave differently from a friendly Red Dragon.

[Ivanhoe]

So, my party of low teen adventurers is on a world spanning quest. In it, we find ourselves in a city full of undead ruled by an epic Lich. (This actually happened in a game). The Lich interrogated us as to why we are there. My Chameleon had no trouble hitting diplomacy DCs in the 40s. We don't play with RAW, but if we had, one minute later, the epic Lich would think of himself as our friend. He would at that point be likely to transform from an antagonist to an ally. He would freely share information possessed by a millennia old godlike intellect. He would pass information that we weren't to be harmed. He would open the markets of the city to us. He might cast spells on our behalf or assign a flunky to do so for him. He would probably write a letter of introduction to other non-hostile rulers. These are all trivial to him, but huge to us. He's immune to mind affecting, but not diplomacy.

In game, even without RAW, the DM took my massive diplomacy into account and ruled that the Lich found us polite and looked on us favorably. He didn't go out of his way to help us, as RAW would make him do. But he listened to us. He traded information. He allowed us free passage in his city and assigned a flunky we could contact for future negotiations. All to his benefit, of course, but that's a pretty good reaction from an undead thing for a group of murderhobos. It completely transformed a sizable chunk of the campaign in a way no spell could match.

I would absolutely agree that RAW diplomacy is the best skill in the game, and even without RAW it still very likely could be. Even if you can't hostile>friendly in a round, being able to improve the disposition of anyone who will talk to you, including the movers and shakers of the game world, transforms campaigns in a very positive way.

Well, admittedly, diplomacy is more powerful than enchantment spells in this regard. But still, it is not broken.
Several things to consider (cool story/example btw!):
The GM ruled that this particular lich was not the standard "unspeakably evil" undead, but someone not outright hating the characters just because they are there (in which case diplomacy would not have worked, in particular not the use of diplomacy for a full minute).
Will "helpful" mean a creature becomes your friend? Not necessarily, because that is not what the skill says.
Even if it were interpreted so by the GM, what does it mean to be the friend of a lich (I mean, in a case where the group is not evil). It is definitely plot-affecting/advancing, very interesting and challenging. But not broken.

[awa]

unfriendly= "Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult"
hostile = "Attack, interfere, berate, flee"

Attacking is hostile, enslaving would be interfering which also requires hostile.

I mean sure diplomacy is not broken if you dont actually use the diplomacy rules

[johnbragg]

unfriendly= "Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult"
hostile = "Attack, interfere, berate, flee"

Attacking is hostile, enslaving would be interfering which also requires hostile.

I mean sure diplomacy is not broken if you dont actually use the diplomacy rules

They're broken if you insist on interpreting them in unreasonable ways.

But if you take into account that the target is still an independent being with its own perspective, motives, tendencies, experiences, etc it doesn't have to be broken.

"Friendly" doesn't mean "let me drop everything else in my life and go get mead in the nearest tavern." Often it means "I like you. I keel you last and keel you quick." Nothing personal, just business. Professor X and Magneto were always friends on some level, but there are other considerations which are usually more important.

Making the Great Wyrm Dragon or the Lich King "friendly" doesn't mean they stop being dragons and lich kings. From the lich king's POV, being a vampire thrall (immortality! d12 HD! Undead immunities! Fast healing!) and a servant in his court is a pretty sweet deal for puny insignificant mortals like the PCs. It's doing you a huge favor from its point of view, like adopting a rescue dog and bringing it to the vet and getting its shots and having it fixed and yeah we probably should get one of those invisible fences with a shock collar. Good doggie!

[awa]

I just quoted what the book said, an unfriendly creature will not attack because if it was attacking it would be hostile (heck it wont even interfere with you because that is also hostile). Now some monsters are more likely to be hostile then others but that does not change the fact that unfriendly is different than hostile.

Just because you should not run it that way does not change whats written in the book.

[johnbragg]

I just quoted what the book said, an unfriendly creature will not attack because if it was attacking it would be hostile (heck it wont even interfere with you because that is also hostile). Now some monsters are more likely to be hostile then others but that does not change the fact that unfriendly is different than hostile.

Just because you should not run it that way does not change whats written in the book.

The sensible baseline to use is Indifferent, "Socially expected interaction." If they're guards, and you're infiltrating the palace, "Indifferent" means they're going to try to capture or kill you. If they're guards, and you're walking down the main street in town, they're going to ignore you. If you're walking down the main street in town after curfew, they're going to be suspicious and try to find out what you're doing out after curfew.

If the guards are Hostile, ("It's Those Bastards! Get them!") and you're infiltrating the palace, they're going to want to kill you after capturing you and torturing you in nasty ways. If you're walking down the main street in town, they'll maybe say mean things to you, maybe invent a reason to arrest you or kill you on the spot (depending on local levels of Law/Chaos Good/Evil). IF you're walking down the main street in town after curfew, roll initiative because they're going to try to kill you.

Unfriendly is, obviously, somewhere in the middle. If you're infiltrating the palace, they won't take any trouble at all to capture you alive rather than killing you. If you're walking down the street, they'll generally harass you and see if they can find a reason to imprison you. If you're out after curfew, they're maybe killing you, maybe imprisoning you but they're not asking any questions first.

Changing the dungeon guards attitudes from Hostile to Friendly doesn't mean they pretend-forget to lock the door and take a bathroom break while you escape. It means they don't kick you in the guts and dump your gruel on the floor (Hostile to indifferent), it means that maybe a biscuit that got dropped in the kitchen makes it into your gruel, and maybe they don't search your straw pallet as often as they're supposed. (Indifferent to friendly.)

[awa]

that's not what the skill says, not even slightly
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

You can certainly run it like that but dont pretend its raw, just say you dont allow diplomacy

[johnbragg]

that's not what the skill says, not even slightly
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

You can certainly run it like that but dont pretend its raw, just say you dont allow diplomacy

You're reading "Possible Actions" as "Mandatory Outcomes." Which is why you're saying that Hostile attitude means they will (always) attack you, and Unfriendly doesn't. Which is why your reading of RAW is ridiculous. That doesn't make RAW ridiculous, it makes a ridiculous reading of RAW ridiculous.

The left and middle columns of the table, "Attitude" and "Means" are ironclad RAW. The rightmost column, labelled "POSSIBLE ACTIONS", is not ironclad RAW, they are suggestions based on context.

"Possible" means maybe, maybe not depending on the circumstances.

So take the prison guard situation.
Hostile--Will take risks to hurt you. Maybe he can kill you and make it look like an accident.
Unfriendly--Wishes you ill. EXtra spit in your soup, extra boots in your behind.
Indifferent--Doesn't much care.
Friendly--Wishes you well. Maybe a crust of bread with your soup, maybe a small favor.
Helpful--will take risks to help you. Maybe he smuggles you a cake, and he doesn't know it has a saw baked into it.

[awa]

you still haven't read the rules i see so I'm gonna stop talking to you

So it seems pretty clear diplomacy is incredibly powerful if you follow the rules as written, but if the skill does not do what the skill says it does then it is less powerful, how much less depends on how far you deviate from the rules.

[RoboEmperor]

unfriendly= "Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult"
hostile = "Attack, interfere, berate, flee"

Attacking is hostile, enslaving would be interfering which also requires hostile.

I mean sure diplomacy is not broken if you dont actually use the diplomacy rules

btw those are just examples, "possible actions" NPCs at these attitudes could do, not what they have to do. As everyone said before, it depends on the NPC.

A bandit chief who doesn't give a **** about who he kills is going to kill you all the way up to indifferent.

A lawful stupid NPC who chops thieves hands off arguably will still chop your hands off even at helpful, but would do everything he can to make sure you don't bleed out or get infections.

All depends on the NPC.

[johnbragg]

btw those are just examples, "possible actions" NPCs at these attitudes could do, not what they have to do. As everyone said before, it depends on the NPC.

A bandit chief who doesn't give a **** about who he kills is going to kill you all the way up to indifferent.

A lawful stupid NPC who chops thieves hands off arguably will still chop your hands off even at helpful, but would do everything he can to make sure you don't bleed out or get infections.

All depends on the NPC.

Right. I think it's important to make the distinction--the "Possible Actions" column is not hard-and-fast RAW, it's suggested examples. IF the example don't make sense, it is not RAW mandatory to use them.

[Twurps]

Also, highly unlikely you have access to a king at level 2, him being in a castle and you being in a village.
The king doesn't have to be the first/only person a diplomancer uses his skills on. He can get a trader to help him get to town, get a nobleman to help him get a audience with the king, etc, etc




Two negatives make a positive. If you're a jerk trying to use diplomacy to murder an entire town and get away scott free, the DM can be a jerk about it and end your adventuring life, all within RAW, because a helpful guard captain is never going to let you get away with slaughter, because duty beats personal feelings, unless he's a crooked guard.

Being dump and messing stuff up isn't a measure of the skills power. Why would the diplomancer be a jerk? Isn't that a bit counterproductive? Why would he murder a town? he doesn't need to kill to get what he wants/needs.

your argument is like saying wizards aren't powerfull, because they get access to spells that could kill them.




All this stuff saying you can turn a high priest or a king into your personal pet is ludicrous.
On PO levels, I agree. But nobody has to be turned into a personal pet. A king willing to take risks and helping is more than enough. What a king deems 'a little risk' and/or 'a little help' is huge for a lvl 2 character. And besides: the diplomancer doesn't have to stop at the king. Others (noblemen, rich traders etc) might do the same.

Maybe we just have different views of 'broken' though. The above example is already broken in my book, but if turning kings into personal pets is the norm, then PO diplomacy at lower levels isn't broken. It's all perspective.

[RoboEmperor]

When a thaumaturgist casts a planar ally spell (including the lesser and greater versions), he makes a Diplomacy check to convince the creature to aid him for a reduced payment. If the thaumaturgist’s Diplomacy check adjusts the creature’s attitude to helpful the creature will work for 50% of the standard fee, as long as the task is one that is not against its nature.

Direct RAW further supporting that helpful creatures are not your puppets, and won't do anything against their nature. Note here that you need a class feature to get a 50% discount.

[johnbragg]

Maybe we just have different views of 'broken' though. The above example is already broken in my book, but if turning kings into personal pets is the norm, then PO diplomacy at lower levels isn't broken. It's all perspective.

A low-level diplomancer doesn't turn the king into his or her pet. It may result in you becoming the king's pet, if you're not careful.

[Twurps]

A low-level diplomancer doesn't turn the king into his or her pet.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? Maybe you were just agreeing with me, in which case: nevermind.

[johnbragg]

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? Maybe you were just agreeing with me, in which case: nevermind.

I was agreeing-and-amplifying. The agendas of a king and of a 2nd level murderhobo are different enough that what the king perceives as doing you a great favor might not be what your murderhobo actually wants.

"Hey king, since I'm so awesome can ya lend me a magic sword so I can complete my rat-slaying quest"
"Indeed you are awesome. You'll make an awesome Sargeant of the Royal Guard."
"Err, that's great Your Majesty. Y'see the thing is....."

[rel]

since the king is your friend he won't do stuff that you are not cool with as a 'favor'.
This is the kind of thing a non-murderous NPC does if you FAIL the diplomacy check but make a reasonable request that the NPC doesn't want to do and feels like turning around on you.

[Mordaedil]

Diplomacy is only useful as long as the NPC gives you time to use it too, not everybody is going to be willing to give you the discourse needed to even attempt a diplomacy check, and given that, you've effectively added 10 to the DC, making them basically as difficult to pull off as an epic check.

[prototype00]

Diplomacy is only useful as long as the NPC gives you time to use it too, not everybody is going to be willing to give you the discourse needed to even attempt a diplomacy check, and given that, you've effectively added 10 to the DC, making them basically as difficult to pull off as an epic check.

Naberius can help you out there.

[eggynack]

Diplomacy is only useful as long as the NPC gives you time to use it too, not everybody is going to be willing to give you the discourse needed to even attempt a diplomacy check, and given that, you've effectively added 10 to the DC, making them basically as difficult to pull off as an epic check.
The absolute hardest normal diplomacy usage, hostile to helpful, is as difficult to pull off as the easiest epic uses, friendly or helpful to fanatic. Something like hostile to indifferent, a change I'd think would destroy a conflict in its tracks (why is this indifferent person attacking you?), with the -10 penalty for a rushed check, is only a DC of 35. Not trivial, but not super difficult either. I've seen high optimization diplomancy builds that can use some of the higher order epic uses, like unfriendly to fanatic's 120, as a full round action, a decent amount pre-epic. The OP specified that we weren't going TO here, but I suspect that you can pull off this hostile to indifferent maneuver without touching that stuff, given how high you can go when you really go all out.

[Gnaeus]

The absolute hardest normal diplomacy usage, hostile to helpful, is as difficult to pull off as the easiest epic uses, friendly or helpful to fanatic. Something like hostile to indifferent, a change I'd think would destroy a conflict in its tracks (why is this indifferent person attacking you?), with the -10 penalty for a rushed check, is only a DC of 35. Not trivial, but not super difficult either. I've seen high optimization diplomancy builds that can use some of the higher order epic uses, like unfriendly to fanatic's 120, as a full round action, a decent amount pre-epic. The OP specified that we weren't going TO here, but I suspect that you can pull off this hostile to indifferent maneuver without touching that stuff, given how high you can go when you really go all out.

I'd say trivially, if you start with a couple of assumptions:
1. That the diplomancer is of a class we would expect to be good at diplomacy
2. That less than 100% effectiveness is still good

For example:
Bard (or other Cha class w/diplomacy) 10
13 ranks diplomacy
22 cha at level 10 in a primary stat with items 13+6=19
+ 2 synergy bonus (taking worst case ruling that it doesn't stack, with which I disagree)=21
+3 skill focus diplomacy =+24.

So with one feat investment, a basic op single classed character could stop fights 50% of the time. Without a dip into marshal or binder. And with no spells or specialist gear.

My intimimancer, on the other hand, is focused on locking down foes with intimidate, but his diplomacy is crazy high by accident. Take that charisma focused character and start stacking skill buffs like heroism, luckstone, ring of eloquence (PF), headband of persuasion (because a lot of the things that boost one social skill boost them all).

Then add the possibility of aid another from a teammate or familiar. Add a masterwork item (I am dressed very nicely) or a circumstance bonus (toss a bag of silver at their feet). It doesn't take significant PO to make a D.C. 35 check 100% of the time.