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View Full Version : 2nd Ed: Idea's Thoughts and Suggestions Welcome



Leon
2007-08-09, 10:04 AM
We have the grace of a couple of weeks to work out what we are going to do. We have it pretty well sorted but i thought that i'd throw it out and see what responses it turned up

outline: We have a Eberron Style Airship (200ft by 40ft)
a party of 3 Clerics, 2 mages, 1 Gladiator, 1 Fighter, 1 Fighter/Mage/Goddess with a bow.

We are to defend a temple of Lathander from 5 Fallen Helmite Paladins riding Blue Dragons + possible ground support

We do have the possible help of 2 Silver Dragons and the Temple Cleric's and Associated Dawnlords


my main Question is how do 2E Dragons compare to what i know of 3E ones, they more or less the same or do they differ greatly

Kurald Galain
2007-08-09, 10:06 AM
They're stronger, by virtue of 2E characters having less hit points.

Leon
2007-08-09, 10:22 AM
so we are still going to expect strafing runs of lighting ever 1d4 rounds and be hard to hit

its_all_ogre
2007-08-09, 11:04 AM
dragons are hugely lower on hps compared to 3.x dragons.
they get no con bonus and have only d8 for HD.
their spells are no longer boosted by having a high charisma.
i would argue that they are weaker personally, dragons in 3e get more hps than players.

Telonius
2007-08-09, 11:18 AM
I know nothing about 2e dragons. But for 3e, they're tougher the older they are. They generally have very high AC, very high HP, and Spell resistance. The more powerful ones can cast spells as a sorcerer. If you know IC what color the dragons are, you can prepare for their their breath weapon by setting up a Resist Energy spell. Eberron dragons are also a bit different from normal D&D dragons, in that the alignments are not as set, and they have much more support from "dragon society" than the typical "sleeps on a pile of gold" loner that you might be used to.

EDIT: You might find the SRD entry on Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) helpful.

MrNexx
2007-08-09, 11:19 AM
Arguably, they are weaker, but it's a fine line; while the 2nd edition dragons don't have as many bonuses, neither do the players.

What level are we talking about?

If 5th or higher, it would behoove your druid to learn call lightning for the day... not for the dragons, but for the riders. You might also want some weather control, if capable of it; it will ground YOUR dragons and reduce the usefulness of your "goddess", but it will also ground their dragons (or lessen the benefit of having them). Cast Faerie Fire on the dragons, if possible, to make them stand out against a dark sky. Also, you're going to want the protection from lightning spell, if you can manage it.

2nd edition dragons do have spells, but they gain them later. Your real fear (no pun intended) will be that they're older than Juveniles... at that point, they pick up Magic Resistance and a fear aura.

Leon
2007-08-09, 11:30 AM
Arguably, they are weaker, but it's a fine line; while the 2nd edition dragons don't have as many bonuses, neither do the players.

What level are we talking about?

If 5th or higher, it would behoove your druid to learn call lightning for the day... not for the dragons, but for the riders. You might also want some weather control, if capable of it; it will ground YOUR dragons and reduce the usefulness of your "goddess", but it will also ground their dragons (or lessen the benefit of having them). Cast Faerie Fire on the dragons, if possible, to make them stand out against a dark sky. Also, you're going to want the protection from lightning spell, if you can manage it.

2nd edition dragons do have spells, but they gain them later. Your real fear (no pun intended) will be that they're older than Juveniles... at that point, they pick up Magic Resistance and a fear aura.

The party Ranges in Level from 7-9 (im the only 9 - Full Cleric)

Wev'e been told Young Adult+ for the dragons

Spells for us is free range - if its on the list of Clerical spells we can cast it spontaneously. so i think most of our 4th lvl spells are going to go toward protection from lightning

Ive no idea what our allies power level is like - story wise we just arrived at the Trinity Temple complex to drop off Refugees and pick up troops, ive talked to the 2 silvers and the knights who ride them, mostly about what we have encounted so far and gained more info on what we face

Meat Shield
2007-08-13, 08:44 AM
My experience with dragons is that the difficulty of the encounter is not something you calculate based upon the stat blocks. Rather, it is the deviousness and skill of the DM. This goes for 2nd or 3rd edition.

Things in your favor: 1) The dragons are not in their lair. Big plus, they gotta come to you. 2) You are flying - while not negating their flight, it minimizes the advantage of it. 3) Dragons are color coded for your convenience! Any sort of lightning resistance would rock.

Suggestions:

1) See if your DM would allow your airship to drag a steel cable to the ground, effectively grounding yourself and minimizing the impact of lightning breath (not eliminating, but minimizing or reducing). 'Cuz I know the first thing I would do is hit that ship with five lightning breaths at once. Ignore the PCs the first round and take out the ship.
2) Obviously, you must concentrate on the dragons, not the riders. Take out the mounts, and the ground may very well take care of the riders for you.
3) CALLED SHOT: WING. 'Nuff said. You gotta ground those dragons.
4) Get those silver dragons to help you by ANY MEANS NECESSARY. You have to keep all five dragons from concentrating on one target at once, and the only way to do it is by giving them more dangerous targets besides your airship.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 12:23 PM
Ok, then. First level spells should include "Remove Fear"; see if your priestly allies would be willing to stock you up on Remove Fear, even if they won't get in the actual fight.

Again, Call Lightning on the Dragon Riders, or the troops below...it's quite useful to reducing their numbers. If you've got a day or so, you might also consider Divination to get some more information.

Since you're unable to Control Weather (a 5th level druid spell would let you use enough wind to ground the dragons, and the cleric is the only level 9), look at other ways of increasing your strength... like with 3rd edition, your best options are buffs and no-save battlefield controls... you have too many targets to do more than hit a few with fireballs or lightning bolts.

Cleric/Druid spells
5th level cleric: For the battle, you may want to keep Raise Dead or Cure Critical Wounds on hand; Insect plague is a good combat spell, but it will mostly serve to keep the lower HD off your back (look at its area of effect... but its duration is low.) Pre-battle, pester your deity with Commune.

4th level: Protection from Lightning. If you're sending someone out to melee with the advancing hordes, then Protection from Evil, 10' radius is a good option, since it enhances troops around him, as well. Your druid may consider Giant Insect... it will give you some flight capabilities, but they're fragile. Cloak of Bravery is a trap... don't use it.

3rd level: Spike growth is great for holding back your opponents; it slows them, damages them, and gives you time to deal with them. Prayer is similar to Protection from Evil, 10' radius, in that it gives good bonuses... its downside is that it's short duration, and your priest has to be in battle. Glyph of warding is a good preparation spell; it will keep your enemies from storming the gates, at least. Don't forget a Dispel Magic or two, and learn to love Call Lightning... 9d8 or more damage to a 10' radius, repeatedly, is not a bad option. Create Food and Water is if you get into a seige situation. Some Continual Light rocks might also be a good idea; easy to throw, they may interfere with your enemy using the cover of darkness to attack.

2nd level: Littering the area with Wyvern Watch will give you some small advantage, as can Trip, but I wouldn't suggest them. Silence 15' radius is your friend, as is Hold Person and Heat Metal. Your druid should probably stock up on Charm Person or Mammal... nothing says chaos like charming a few enemies in the middle.

1st level: Remove Fear is great, as is Faerie Fire (though the big dragons may ignore it, you can also use it against incoming humanoids). Bless is also a good option, since it can be sent away from the caster. You might try some Animal Friendships in preparation, and don't neglect Entangle... one of those can foul the enemy advance.

Wizard spells:
Rule 1: Don't neglect the big damage spells... they'll cause a lot of problems within the approaching enemy hordes.

4th level: Wall of fire is probably better than Wall of Ice, if you have a choice. Stoneskin on your warriors will help them live longer. Rainbow Pattern will destroy a formation as your enemies back up on themselves. A Minor Globe of Invulnerability is also useful for blocking incoming spells; cast one and crowd your casters around the person who cast it... you can still cast OUT of a minor globe. I don't suggest a lot of single target spells (like Phantasmal killer), unless you have means of getting at non MR creatures. Confusion is a great spell of this level, and using Dig to make some trenches will help, too.

3rd level: Wind Wall is great against enemy archers, and Protection from Normal Missiles provides a great defense (as does Prot Evil 10' radius, but note the lower duration... have the cleric cast it, unless your wizard has nothing else). Slow is good, but I would not suggest Haste... you lose too many people from the System Shock for aging a year. Again, though, this level has two big-damage spells, and they are good choices for this level (I'd go fireball over lightning bolt; if there's no ground support, then at least it will be useful against the dragons)

2nd level: Use Strength on your warriors, unless they're already carrying strength-enhancing items (like Gauntlets of Ogre power, or a Girdle of Giant Strength). Web is a great spell, as is Stinking Cloud and Glitterdust. Flaming Sphere is great for breaking up the enemy, but not so much against fliers. Again, Continual Light rocks break up the advantage of night.

1st level: You want at least one Shield spell; depending on what the ground support is made up of, Sleep MIGHT be useful, but if its not coming, don't memorize it. The oft-neglected Message spell can keep your allies in contact without the DM being able to say "Wait, he wouldn't know what's going on. Grease is great against ground troops, less so against flying creatures. Enlarge is great for your fighters, but there's a slightly sneakier use to it... cast it on the dragon riders, or their saddles. If they're strapped in, they MIGHT burst out of their seats. If you target the saddle, though, it gets too large to fit the dragon (as its straps loosen with additional length), fouling the dragon and possibly spilling the rider. If you have a few days, and the priests don't have good equipment, try casting Armor on your priestly allies... it's a nice, long duration spell which will keep them safe. Of course, if they have Chainmail or better, don't both.

Meat Shield
2007-08-13, 01:20 PM
Good thoughts Nexx! It has been too long since I played 2nd Ed to have remember the spells needed.

More:
5) Don't suppose you have any dragon slaying arrows or ability to create them?
6) If you have archer support, maybe have them concentrate on the dragon wings? I have not done the math, but thirty or forty archers concentrating on the left wing of the lead dragon would have a better chance of bringing it down than your fighter by himself I think.
7) Ground opponents: see Nexx's spells for barricades and barriers, but don't forget about mundane barricades and barriers. Collapse buildings. Lock gates. Pools of oil ready to be lit. Trenches. Funnel attackers into a kill zone. If you have large numbers of able bodied citizens unable to otherwise contribute to the battle, put 'em to work building defenses.
8) Do you have Chain Lightning yet? Better against the riders than Call Lightning I think.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 03:47 PM
8) Do you have Chain Lightning yet? Better against the riders than Call Lightning I think.

They won't have that, yet; the cleric is the only 9th level, and you need 11th to cast Chain Lightning.