5e grappling: explain the mechanics behind dropping an opponent from above your head

[The Shadowdove]

Hey forum-lurkers,

I've got a typical Goliath barbarian.

I've read that, as per raw, any creature over 6'9" can use their movement while grappling to lift a creature over their head as part of their movement. The intention is for this to result in a fall/drop of the still-grappled opponent; which causes them to suffer the prone condition and take 1d6 falling damage.

Explain how this is possible a little further if you're a book savvy sort. I don't trust my own understanding of the rules enough to come to a conclusion.

Also, what does your opponent categorize as during this interaction, an object?

Does an 8' tall Goliath with the ability to lift ridiculous amounts of weight above their head 1.5x their height require a standing jump in order to accomplish this, or does their height alone allow for the foe to be in excess of the 10' required for the 1d6 fall that results in a prone status?

Thank you in advance,

Dove.

[TheUser]

Hey forum-lurkers,

I've got a typical Goliath barbarian.

I've read that, as per raw, any creature over 6'9" can use their movement while grappling to lift a creature over their head as part of their movement. The intention is for this to result in a fall/drop of the still-grappled opponent; which causes them to suffer the prone condition and take 1d6 falling damage.

Explain how this is possible a little further if you're a book savvy sort. I don't trust my own understanding of the rules enough to come to a conclusion.

Also, what does your opponent categorize as during this interaction, an object?

Does an 8' tall Goliath with the ability to lift ridiculous amounts of weight above their head 1.5x their height require a standing jump in order to accomplish this, or does their height alone allow for the foe to be in excess of the 10' required for the 1d6 fall that results in a prone status?

Thank you in advance,

Dove.

I see where you're going with this and I have done the build and had the appropriate boosts.


Flying Suplex Build!

Enlarge Spell on the Goliath.
Jump Spell

If a target is 2 sizes smaller you no longer incur a movement penalty from grappling the target.

Goliath is large from spell and counts as 1 size larger for lift/carry/drag (does this count for grappled targets? Ask your DM, odds are if you double down with bear totem at level 6 even if the variant encumbrance rules kick in they make your medium sized opponent a rag doll).

7ft Goliath is now 14ft tall and goes from weighing 300lbs to 900. With jump spell they can get the target ~40ft airbourne (1.5x height from being enlarged holding the enemy up and then triple the base jump height from jump spell).

Standard fall for a PC is 4d6 from 40ft (goliath doesn't take fall damage from its own jumps) but the enemy in question isn't just falling 40ft it's got a 900lb enlarged goliath landing on it. Triple weighted PC adding to the impact of the fall for +12d6. Coupled with the fact the Barbarian is actively slamming them and gets enlarged boost you can ruled it as a bare minimum 1d4+16d6+str mod.

However, given that it requires a slew of concentration spells and actions from allies and 40ft of open air space this seems completely balanced.

[JackPhoenix]

Triple weighted PC adding to the impact of the fall for +12d6. Coupled with the fact the Barbarian is actively slamming them and gets enlarged boost you can ruled it as a bare minimum 1d4+16d6+str mod.

Citation needed

[TheUser]

Citation needed

There's only 1 rule with respects to fall damage and you know it. 10ft = 1d6 fall damage.
It's left ambiguous to provide DM fiat.

If you apply logic/physics you get this.

It's not a huge stretch nor does it really break the game with the immense number of requirements (2 concentration spells and a roided out goliath totem barbarian).

[tieren]

There's only 1 rule with respects to fall damage and you know it. 10ft = 1d6 fall damage.
It's left ambiguous to provide DM fiat.


But that damage is the same for everything that falls, whether its a 45 pound gnome, a 150 pound human, a 300 pound goliath, or a 3000 lb dragon.

To imply you automatically get triple damage for being enlarged is a bit of a stretch.

definitely in the "ask your DM" realm.

[Joe the Rat]

Does an 8' tall Goliath with the ability to lift ridiculous amounts of weight above their head 1.5x their height require a standing jump in order to accomplish this, or does their height alone allow for the foe to be in excess of the 10' required for the 1d6 fall that results in a prone status?


Based off the "standard" human proportions, your "wingspan" (arms outstretched, fingertip-to-fingertip) is about the same as your height. Halve that, reach up, 1.5 reach (which is added to your jump for how high you can reach with a leap). Which is an oversimplification and exaggeration. But an 8' Goliath should easily have 2.5' - 3' long arms, so something hoisted overhead would be over 10' up - high enough by rules to inflict fall damage.

[smcmike]

This is definitely "ask your DM" territory. There are a number of places in the RAW that are open to interpretation or DM changes.



Based off the "standard" human proportions, your "wingspan" (arms outstretched, fingertip-to-fingertip) is about the same as your height. Halve that, reach up, 1.5 reach (which is added to your jump for how high you can reach with a leap). Which is an oversimplification and exaggeration.

Yeah, it certainly is - using the 1.5 x height reach rule, LeBron James would be able to touch a basketball rim flat-footed. A more accurate measurement for real people is 1.3 or so - I'm a bit over 6', and my overhead reach is almost exactly 8'.



But an 8' Goliath should easily have 2.5' - 3' long arms, so something hoisted overhead would be over 10' up - high enough by rules to inflict fall damage.

Yup. Of course, questions remain for the DM: is "grabbing" an opponent necessarily equivalent to holding them over one's head? There aren't any rules for this, but in real life there is a huge range of levels of control one might have over another person while grappling them, and lifting that person arm's reach overhead is at the far upper end of that range.

Also, if you are dealing with really heavy opponents, a DM might wonder if RAW lifting necessarily means overhead max extension.

[The Shadowdove]

Based off the "standard" human proportions, your "wingspan" (arms outstretched, fingertip-to-fingertip) is about the same as your height. Halve that, reach up, 1.5 reach (which is added to your jump for how high you can reach with a leap). Which is an oversimplification and exaggeration. But an 8' Goliath should easily have 2.5' - 3' long arms, so something hoisted overhead would be over 10' up - high enough by rules to inflict fall damage.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, anything 6'7" or taller (10÷1.5=6.66r) can use their movement to lift something/someone over their head (given they're strong enough) and allow gravity to do damage, forcing them prone, while the grapple is still maintained?

I imagine this is because the book states the only way to end a grapple, aside from the grappler intentionally ending it, is to win at an escape check, if the grappler is incapacitated, or if the grappler or grappled are forcibly moved apart.

And since it was merely movement that was used, you also are free to use a second attack within the same turn if you have one to spare?

Thanks again.

[TheUser]

But that damage is the same for everything that falls, whether its a 45 pound gnome, a 150 pound human, a 300 pound goliath, or a 3000 lb dragon.

To imply you automatically get triple damage for being enlarged is a bit of a stretch.

definitely in the "ask your DM" realm.

The idea is that the enlarged creature doesn't take triple fall damage because it's limbs and muscles have been strengthened by the enlarge spell (advantage on strength checks) so it still takes the flat 1d6 per 10ft, however, having a 900lb goliath overtop of the target using it to break it's fall is grounds for at least doubling the damage (because you have a sandwich effect).

Like I said, it requires 2 spells, a host of features and 3 different players turns to set up; 16d6 is not a stretch for damage from those 3 players using their turns this way especially when it requires 40ft of head room.

[Unoriginal]

A suplex would be more a Shove than a Grapple, just a shove that push the target behind the user.

[Easy_Lee]

Goliath barbarian / shadow monk, grapple then bonus action teleport for a 60' suplex. Monks are pretty good at avoiding fall damage I hear.

Also good for getting casters into the party's melee range, or sneaking up on someone, grabbing him, then vanishing before he can scream. His friends will wonder where he went.

[The Shadowdove]

If you grapple someone as a barbarian (40ft movespeed) and do a running high jump(3+str mod straight up):

-Does the grappled foe take falling damage?
-Do you take falling damage as well?
-Does this knock your foe prone?
-Do you get knocked prone for jumping over 10 feet in height? (Ring of jumping, etc)
-Do you maintain the grapple?

[Dalebert]

Goliath barbarian / shadow monk, grapple then bonus action teleport for a 60' suplex. Monks are pretty good at avoiding fall damage I hear.

Shadow monks can only teleport themselves.

[Easy_Lee]

Shadow monks can only teleport themselves.

If that was the case then they would leave their clothing, weapons, and anything else they were carrying behind.

Can a shadow monk pick up a rock and then teleport with the shadows with that rock? If so, he can pick up a creature and do the same. The book doesn't say that you can't, so this is a ruling unless there's some errata I don't know about.

[Kryx]

If that was the case then they would leave their clothing, weapons, and anything else they were carrying behind.

Can a shadow monk pick up a rock and then teleport with the shadows with that rock? If so, he can pick up a creature and do the same. The book doesn't say that you can't, so this is a ruling unless there's some errata I don't know about.
It is not a ruling.


At 6th-level, you gain the abilily to slep from one shadow into another. When you are in dim light or darkness, as a bonus action you can teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness.

There are many features and spells that allow you to target multiple creatures including yourself. This feature is not one of them or it would say so.

[Easy_Lee]

It is not a ruling.



There are many features and spells that allow you to target multiple creatures including yourself. This feature is not one of them or it would say so.

That's an inference. Again, here's another situation. Say you have a bag of holding. Say there is a creature in that bag of holding. If you use this feature, is that creature left behind? If so, why? If not, why?

I'm not reading between the lines here. The text doesn't say. It's not enough to say that you can't do it if the feature doesn't specifically say you can do it. The reason why that logic fails is because the book doesn't have rules for swinging from chandeliers, either, or an infinite number of other possibilities. It doesn't say what happens when you harvest poison from a summoned creature. These are things the DM must decide.

Anything not specified by the book MUST be ruled by the DM. Yours may be a common ruling, but it's still a ruling. It's a ruling because the book doesn't say.

So again, unless there's a rule or errata specifically for this (such as specific DM guidelines on teleportation features), then this is a ruling.

Let's not derail the thread any further than this. If you want to keep discussing it, I request you take this to PMs.

[JackPhoenix]

That's an inference. Again, here's another situation. Say you have a bag of holding. Say there is a creature in that bag of holding. If you use this feature, is that creature left behind? If so, why? If not, why?

No, because you're not teleporting the creature. The creature is in extradimensional space, you're teleporting the bag, the creature's location never change, only the location of the extradimensional space's opening.

[Kryx]

I'm not reading between the lines here. The text doesn't say.
You are definitely reading between the lines trying to gain a benefit that is entirely unintended.

Here are any examples of spells that specifically call out multiple targets where there are multiple targets intended:

You and the creatures you designate when you cast this spell can open the object normally...

You and up to eight willing creatures within range project your astral bodies...

You establish a telepathic link with one beast you touch that is friendly to you or charmed by you. The spell fails if the beast’s Intelligence is 4 or higher. Until the spell ends, the link is active while you and the beast are within line of sight of each other...

To you and any creatures you designate when you cast the spell, the writing appears normal...

You and any creature you designate when you cast the spell can enter the extradimensional dwelling...

A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection...

You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence...

You and creatures you designate at the time you cast the spell can pass through...

The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate...

Until the spell ends, you and the target can instantaneously share words...

This spell instantly transports you and up to eight willing creatures of your choice that you can see within range...

Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination circle...

This spell wards a willing creature you touch and creates a mystic connection between you and the target until the spell ends...

You and up to ten willing creatures you can see within range assume a gaseous form for the duration...

You and up to five willing creatures within 5 feet of you instantly teleport to a previously designated sanctuary...
This was a quick search for the words "you and". I'm sure there are many others.
The most important there are Teleport, Teleportation Circle, and Word of Recall - all teleportation spells, all specify that you can bring extra targets.

Your reasoning is that because the feature doesn't specify you can't include other creatures then it's totally fair game. That's so preposterous...

[Susano-wo]

Hey forum-lurkers,

I've got a typical Goliath barbarian.

I've read that, as per raw, any creature over 6'9" can use their movement while grappling to lift a creature over their head as part of their movement. The intention is for this to result in a fall/drop of the still-grappled opponent; which causes them to suffer the prone condition and take 1d6 falling damage.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't a rule? Like, lifting a grappled opponent over your head sounds likable reasonable thing to do with a grapple check or something, but its hardly RAW, I don't think? Also, iwhy would you have to be a certain height? shouldn't it be just based on STR?

[Easy_Lee]

I tried to get you to take this to PMs. I apologize to Shadowdove for the resulting thread derailment.

Now, as to you Kryx. Here's what you can do: You can show me the text where it says that anything you're carrying does not go with you when you use the shadow monk ability. Since objects the monk is carrying obviously go along, it's up to the DM to decide whether creatures go along, too.

You cannot make assumptions about this ability based on similar abilities. I've tried that before, and it doesn't apply to 5e. Each ability is ruled independently. I'm sure you can think of many examples of this, and that I don't need to go into detail.

By the way, this ability isn't even magic. It's a Ki ability. In fact, it doesn't even mention the word "teleport." The word is "step." So there's one more reason why none of the spells you listed have anything to do with it.

One reminder for everyone: we're all equals here. None of us has superior insight into the rules or a perfect ability to predict RAI. There are no DMs on the playground; we're all players trying to collaboratively interpret the game. There is no need to be dismissive, accusatory, or rude. I am not a player at your table.

And as of this point, I'm not going to talk about shadow monks any more in this thread. And I really hope that everyone else has enough respect for Shadowdove to follow suit. This whole discussion is a tangent based on a suggestion that I already regret posting, because it led to the derailment of Shadowdove's thread.

[Vogonjeltz]

Citation needed

Also for this part:


Standard fall for a PC is 4d6 from 40ft (goliath doesn't take fall damage from its own jumps)

Nothing in the rules on Jumping removes falling damage. Is there some Goliath rule that removes falling damage from jumps that I was heretofore previously unaware of?

[greenstone]

…can use their movement while grappling to lift a creature over their head as part of their movement.

Assuming you have the lifting capacity to hold your foe at arms length above you, that would be a pretty difficult thing to do with a struggling target. I think I'd be requiring both hands to do the lift, and give advantage to the defender and disadvantage to the grappler on the grapple check.

Grappling is, after all, specifically not carrying.

[The Shadowdove]

If it were ruled by RAW and not real life examples, how does this play out?

Let's assume you actually need a jump to accomplish the feat of getting a foe high enough to take damage. 5' reach of a medium creature being as limiting as it is.

Actually, on page 182 of the players handbook under High Jump it states that "you can extend your arms half your height above your head during your jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of your jump plus 1&1/2 times your height."

So this might actually supercede the 5' reach rule.

When jumping, following a 10ft run, an 8' tall Goliath with 20 strength can reach a total of 12' above the height of 3+strength (5).

Meaning the foe is actually 20' above ground. Am I correct?

Does this allow you to maintain a grapple if you simply let them fall while holding them as you also succumb to gravity?

If not, so what, you release your foe and they fall. They take damage and are automatically prone. You then regrapple them or make an attack with advantage?

[TrinculoLives]

I don't get it. Since when are creatures able to lift other creatures above their heads? Where is this mentioned in the rules? Being able to reach above you when you jump =/= being able to lift other creatures above you when you jump.

[The Shadowdove]

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/893255830245564417

[Mellack]

I would think lifting a creature above one's head would at very least require both hands to have grappled the target. So two free hands and two grapple checks before you can try. Perhaps I might allow one hand to do it if the target were extreemly light.

PS: Mearls is not known for playing strictly by the rules. Crawford is the rules guy.

[JackPhoenix]

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/893255830245564417

So MM would allow it in his game. That doesn't have any bearing on actual rules, RAW or RAI.

[The Shadowdove]

So MM would allow it in his game. That doesn't have any bearing on actual rules, RAW or RAI.


Yeah a couple people just informed me he's more for flavor and "rule of cool". Gonna see if I can get Crawford to bite.

[Hrugner]

I would think lifting a creature above one's head would at very least require both hands to have grappled the target. So two free hands and two grapple checks before you can try. Perhaps I might allow one hand to do it if the target were extreemly light.

PS: Mearls is not known for playing strictly by the rules. Crawford is the rules guy.

You could probably do a one handed hip toss, extend your legs and push their stomach with your other hand for a throw at full arms length above your head. Hell of a maneuver, but I agree it would be complicated and fantasy only. Outside of wrastlin' toddlers I mean.

[Beelzebubba]

Standard fall for a PC is 4d6 from 40ft (goliath doesn't take fall damage from its own jumps) but the enemy in question isn't just falling 40ft it's got a 900lb enlarged goliath landing on it. Triple weighted PC adding to the impact of the fall for +12d6. Coupled with the fact the Barbarian is actively slamming them and gets enlarged boost you can ruled it as a bare minimum 1d4+16d6+str mod.


That's... enthusiastically hopeful. And no way in hell legal.

First, not taking damage from the Jump implies the character landing using leg muscles/agility to land softly. If the Goliath intentionally slams on top of the victim with it's body weight to cause more damage, then he will take damage too.

The Goliath takes only 1d6 per 10' from falling. There are no rules for 'bigger things = taking more falling damage', and the extra mass has been built into the rules of larger beings already (they hit harder). That means his body weight on top of the slam-ee can inflict, at most, 1d6 per 10' without getting into seriously over-powered house rules.

All this 'DOUBLE and TRIPLE and SLAM and' sounds straight out of 3E character op, like you saw the Hulking Hurler and had a religious experience. That is not how 5E does it. Here's how I would rule it:


Slam-ee takes 4d6 falling damage.
If Goliath wants to slam on top, he decides how much he commits to it, and rolls up to 4d6, and that damage is divided equally between the Goliath and the Slam-ee. Odd point goes to the Slam-ee.
Since the Goliath is slamming, then add 1d4+STR.


Of course, you can rule that two first-level spells and a grapple, a tactic available to the party at 1st level, are as damaging as a Disintegrate spell. Your prerogative. :smallsmile:

[MrFahrenheit]

Here's the important question everyone seems to be missing: can the character suplex a train?

[Naanomi]

Here's the important question everyone seems to be missing: can the character suplex a train?
A quick review of train weights show the locomotive part weight in the lightest common trains are about 250,000 lbs or so (there is of course a lot of variation).

A 30 STR bear Totem Goliath with the Brawny feat; with Enlarge and Enhance Ability... can lift 28,800?

So... no; even with access to UA material, buffs from two spell casters, and a supernaturally high strength you cannot even get close to suplexing a light train engine

[Joe the Rat]

But what if it's a ghost train? Those probably aren't as heavy...

[Zorku]

But what if it's a ghost train? Those probably aren't as heavy...
Yeah, but their athletics score is so high that it's never gonna come up in gameplay.

[Hrugner]

But what if it's a ghost train? Those probably aren't as heavy...

You may as well just throw a tent at it then.

[The Shadowdove]

Jeremy Crawford
Replying to @The_Shadowdove and @mikemearls
Nothing in the rules prevents it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/900796842992181249