Dragon Disciple advice

[QuadraticGish]

I'm looking for some advice on my gishy Dragon Disciple build. It's not efficent, but my other party members are an Eldritch Archer(Magus, has a packmule Fighter as a companion), Theologian(Cleric), and a Broodmaster(Summoner) so I'm not worried about it. We're using the PFSRD for most of our material and any 3rd party material has to be cleared by the DM. Anything DSP made is sadly right out the window right from the getgo. Scholar here, is one of the classes he preapproved as fitting for the campaign which is very based on the "A journey to the True World" sourcebook from AD&D IIRC. So in other words, chances are I can't plan on buying any magic items. The game has already started, so my character is set in stone for the time being. I'd like to hear what you guys think could be good options for the future.

Wyvaran Scholar 1/ Crossblooded Sorcerer 3(Crystal Draconic, Sage)

Str: 15
Dex: 12(+2)
Con: 13
Int: 17(-2)(+1)
Wis:11(+2)
Cha: 13

Spells
0th: Prestidigitation, Spark, Read Magic, Detect Magic
1st: Grease, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor(bloodline)

Feats: Telling Tail, Wing Bash
Traits: Magical Knack, Reactionary

Notable equipment(that's not directly survival related): Wand of Silent Image, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Handy Haversack, Cracked Dusty Rose Prism, Potion of CLW, 4 acid flasks, 4 alchemist's fire, 4 antitoxins, 2 caltrops, 4 tanglefoot bags, ioun torch, 4 thunderstones, Traveler's Any-tool.

Other: Traded out Low-Light vision for the Kobold Kin racial trait. Two of my favored class bonuses from Sorcerer have been spent on the Sorcerer bonus to count as one level higher for the purposes of Dragon Resistances(4). The other two were just spent on HP. I also took both the 1st and 3rd level bloodline abilities from the Draconic Bloodline. All HD after first level are averaged, attributes were rolled, and the non-dragon requirement for DD is waved. Edit: Bloodline Arcana from the Sage Bloodline switches Sorcerer casting and class features to use Int. Fractional BAB is in play.


My character was learning to be a scholar before he caught wind of an adventuring society hosting a challenge in the area. During that, his sorcery awakened and he went off to attend multiple challenges until he was eventually invited to join. Only to find out that it was mostly nobles paying people to do said things and then claiming the fame. Wanting to get away from these kinds of people and get some real adventure, he chose to go on the ship taking a voyage to the new world; hoping to find actual adventurers. Mostly disappointed in that regard though. Let me know if there's anything I'm missing up there and I'll edit the post.

[CharonsHelper]

I think that you are gaining almost nothing from the Scholar class. (I realize it may have RP reasons, but you're asking for mechanical help.)

I would suggest going either straight crossblooded sorcerer (Draconic & Abyssal: the Abyssal so that you can eventually get the +STR bonus) or go at least 2 levels of Paladin (get proficiencies, HP, and major boost to saves).

It depends if you want to go mainly melee with a bit of arcane buffing, or a true hybrid of combat/spells.

Going Tiefling is beneficial as with the cross-blooded your CHA counts as +2 for all sorcerer abilities.

Especially if you're going straight sorcerer, you might consider a natural weapon build to help make up for the low BAB. Get the Tiefling alternate racial for a bite attack and get the claw ability. (when getting a single attack with the bite, since your claws won't be manifested you'll actually get 1.5x STR on the bite attack until you get more attacks) Get an Amulet of Mighty Fists and eventually grab the ring to be able to case Barkskin as a sorcerer spell for the natural armor enhancement.

Intelligence does NOTHING for a Dragon Disciple (yes - I realize that with Sage you can cast off of it - but DD abilities are CHA based). Drop it down to 10 ASAP. If you go Paladin you could even get away with dumping Wisdom.

Get a decent Dex for AC, a decent Con, a decent Cha (either 14 or 16 after racial - as a gish you mostly should be casting stuff without DCs) and jack up your Str.

[Geddy2112]

So all of your current build is set in stone? Unfortunately your ability scores are pretty bad for a DD or even a sorcerer. Your intelligence is way too high, and why did you put your +1 there? it did not even boost it to the next modifier, when your str and cha were 15 and 13 respectively, so they would both be boosted to something much better. I would beg your DM to retrain that ability score increase and put it into Str or CHA, heck, even your con could be boosted to 14. Also, beg to see if you can retrain that scholar level-I agree it does almost nothing for your build except delay your entry into DD. If you are really lucky, see if you can rearrange your ability scores so you can get your INT into the 10-12 range, and put that 18 you rolled into one of your more important stats, like STR or CHA. For a DD natural attack sorcerer, stats are generally Str>Cha>Dex/Con>Int>Wis. Even with the sage bloodline, you are going into a CHA based prestiege class, so you either need to abandon those plans or redistribute those stats(and crossblood with another bloodline).

If you don't have magical items to boost your ability scores, things are going to be very very tough for you. Boost your casting stat to 19 and then put the rest of what you can get into strength and maybe con.

[QuadraticGish]

I'm stuck replying on my phone due 'net issues so I will be brief about Charisma. The sage bloodline arcana changes all of my Sorcerer class features and casting to use Int instead of Cha.

[CharonsHelper]

The sage bloodline arcana changes all of my Sorcerer class features and casting to use Int instead of Cha.

Both of us noted that. Sage bloodline is a BAD mix with DD.

[QuadraticGish]

Both of us noted that. Sage bloodline is a BAD mix with DD.
Sorry, I missed that. Can you please point out where it says DD abilties work off of Charisma as well as how Scholar delays going into DD? It refers to the breath weapon working like the bloodline ability which means it should run off of Int right? Am I misunderstanding something about how DD or the Sage bloodline works?


Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks*.

Languages: Draconic.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.

I must be missing something about this then. It still looks like I can still get in at 6th level.

[CharonsHelper]

Sorry, I missed that. Can you please point out where it says DD abilties work off of Charisma as well as how Scholar delays going into DD?

It refers to the breath weapon working like the bloodline ability which means it should run off of Int right?

No. Draconic bloodline abilities always use CHA.


Am I misunderstanding something about how DD or the Sage bloodline works?

It seems so.


Unlike most sorcerers, whose innate magic is powered by force of personality, you use your intellect to understand and master your mystic powers. You use your Intelligence, rather than your Charisma, to determine all class features and effects relating to your sorcerer class, such as bonus spells per day, the maximum spell level you can cast, the save DCs of your spells, and the number of daily uses of your bloodline powers.

Doesn't apply to stuff gained from Dragon Disciple.

Besides which - none of the other stuff that the Sage/Arcane bloodline gives you mesh at ALL with being a Dragon Disciple.


I must be missing something about this then. It still looks like I can still get in at 6th level.

You are correct there. I'm not sure what Geddy was referring to there.

Nonetheless - it hurts the build a lot as it delays both spellcasting & melee abilities. You don't gain BAB, weapon/armor proficiencies etc. (though it is a stupidly OP dip for the Int to AC - that's just stupid)

[QuadraticGish]

No. Draconic bloodline abilities always use CHA.
Why is that? Isn't it a class feature under the purview of the Sage Arcana? If I'm misunderstanding something, then it sounds like something I need to bring up to my DM since he was working off the same logic with this as I was. I read it as basically making Sorcerer entirely work on Int.



Doesn't apply to stuff gained from Dragon Disciple.
So, what exactly happens if I do go DD anyway? How do the interactions work?



Besides which - none of the other stuff that the Sage/Arcane bloodline gives you mesh at ALL with being a Dragon Disciple.

Guilty as charged on that. It was a mostly mechanical standpoint to have Sorc run off of Int so I can use Scholar as a one level dip to help drag up my AC and help fill in holes that the party has in some knowledge skills and survival most importantly(especially if we run out rations). We had some coordination on who covers what skills, so I'm pretty reluctant on ditching Scholar due to the breadth of skills. Wizard was my second choice, but I went with Sorcerer off of a recommendation from the DM when he said that gold will likely be worthless on the island and that it was unlikely that there would be any scrolls sold. I figured that survival against nature was also a priority, I decided on Sorcerer so I could still function in the case I was separated from my equipment for whatever reason. Which did(mostly) actually happen as we shipwrecked and washed up on the island with only select items remaining. I also chose Wyvaran because I wanted to play with early fly speed and see how it could contribute towards exploring despite the -2 to Int. I only later noticed that it had feats to grab a Primary tail attack and two secondary wings. I figured grabbing those would help when I would need to conserve uses of my claws.


Nonetheless - it hurts the build a lot as it delays both spellcasting & melee abilities. You don't gain BAB, weapon/armor proficiencies etc. (though it is a stupidly OP dip for the Int to AC - that's just stupid)
I'll admit it does slow down BAB and hit my casting; I went in knowing that it was going to hurt, but it's not completely bad as the DM was nice enough to allow fractional BAB so I at least have a BAB of +2 for the time. My fault for neglecting to mention that.

[CharonsHelper]

I'll admit it does slow down BAB and hit my casting; I went in knowing that it was going to hurt, but it's not completely bad as the DM was nice enough to allow fractional BAB so I at least have a BAB of +2 for the time. My fault for neglecting to mention that.

Well - that certainly makes it more viable. And as I said before - it does get the 3rd party OP ability of INT = AC. (Frankly - it's a perfect example of why I don't allow 3rd party stuff at my own table without review.)

[TheFamilarRaven]

I assume your DM is allowing the Wildblooded (where you get the sage bloodline) and the Crossblooded archetype to stack? Because by RAW they can't since they both alter the bloodline ability. Just genuinely curious.


No. Draconic bloodline abilities always use CHA.
Doesn't apply to stuff gained from Dragon Disciple.


This is an odd conclusion to draw after reading the Sage bloodline text. The passage clearly says "all class features and effects related to your sorcerer class". It then goes on to list some examples, using the words "such as..." indicating that the following examples are just that; examples. Not the only features affected by the bloodline arcana.

So, (momentarily ignoring the aforementioned conflict between the Wildblooded and Crossblooded archetype), The draconic bloodline is a class feature of the sorcerer. Thus all abilities that are modified by charisma are then effected by intelligence instead.

Furthermore, the Dragon Disciple class stacks with levels in sorcerer when determining bloodline powers. Thus the DD is getting the bloodline powers as a sorcerer. I suppose you could make the case that since you get the Breath Weapon bloodline powers early, that they run off Charisma instead because in this case you're not technically getting them as a Sorcerer. But then like, whatever man. Because eventually the Sorcerer will be high enough level to get the bloodline power and change it back to intelligence.

[QuadraticGish]

I assume your DM is allowing the Wildblooded (where you get the sage bloodline) and the Crossblooded archetype to stack? Because by RAW they can't since they both alter the bloodline ability. Just genuinely curious.
How did I miss that. If he realized it, then he let it pass since we're already in play. I'm gonna ask just in case.

[Spore]

Huh. I have made several iterations of my Dragon Disciple character. I played him for a cumulative 2 hours, as the character was just needed for a cameo and then I fine-tuned him again.

Basically what I have learned is the following: For raw power, the DD is a downgrade from the sorcerer class. For being a brute gish you need to have a few things set before the game even starts (such as dragon color like a Noxious Bite Barb/Sorc/DD). But what I prefer is to go along Wizards design philosophy of prestige classes (I know it's Paizo but they ripped the classes straight from vanilla 3.5): You cannot expect a prestige class to suit your needs. You have to suit your character towards the prestige class.

The DD is suited for "dragon combat", you want to emulate dragons, so you have to fight like one to get the most out of it. So your combat options should include:

1) Superior blasting, both with Fireballs (Red DD reigns here, but Elemental Spell along with Magical Lineage, but this prevents you from taking Magical Knack that pushes your caster level for more damage) and the breath weapon

2) Flight: You have Fly, Overland Flight and later on Wings. Get your hands on an robe of arcane heritage. Maybe even make it your prime quest to recover your ancient family's heirloom. Getting Wings earlier is important.

3) DEADLY melee combat: With being a sorcerer your HP pool is small so your claws and bites need to hit hard. Prebuffing is as important as your whole feat and talent choices.

My DD was lost on my old computer (after I fried the motherboard with a generous shower of mineral water) but it went something along this:

Half-Orc Red Dragon Sorcerer 7 (not wild blooded, the delay in casting spells is not worth it. You loose so much utility) /Dragon Disciple 4 with approximate stats of 16/12/16/12/10/15. The robe pushed me enough to grant me wings and honestly I feel 7th level is the maximum for DD levels as the class is just not very good. If your AC/HP is exceptional you can cut it off earlier.

It is just stupid that a Dragon Disciple5/Dragon Disciple 7 learns Dragon Form on the same damn level and sacrifices 2 levels for that AND is locked into his dragon type. The class is written terribly.

[QuadraticGish]

Update here after getting word from my DM. He is going to allow me to stack Crossblooded/Wildblooded and has ruled that the Sage bloodline will affect all my bloodline powers; including those that DD touches on.


Huh. I have made several iterations of my Dragon Disciple character. I played him for a cumulative 2 hours, as the character was just needed for a cameo and then I fine-tuned him again.

Basically what I have learned is the following: For raw power, the DD is a downgrade from the sorcerer class. For being a brute gish you need to have a few things set before the game even starts (such as dragon color like a Noxious Bite Barb/Sorc/DD). But what I prefer is to go along Wizards design philosophy of prestige classes (I know it's Paizo but they ripped the classes straight from vanilla 3.5): You cannot expect a prestige class to suit your needs. You have to suit your character towards the prestige class.

The DD is suited for "dragon combat", you want to emulate dragons, so you have to fight like one to get the most out of it. So your combat options should include:

1) Superior blasting, both with Fireballs (Red DD reigns here, but Elemental Spell along with Magical Lineage, but this prevents you from taking Magical Knack that pushes your caster level for more damage) and the breath weapon

2) Flight: You have Fly, Overland Flight and later on Wings. Get your hands on an robe of arcane heritage. Maybe even make it your prime quest to recover your ancient family's heirloom. Getting Wings earlier is important.

3) DEADLY melee combat: With being a sorcerer your HP pool is small so your claws and bites need to hit hard. Prebuffing is as important as your whole feat and talent choices.

My DD was lost on my old computer (after I fried the motherboard with a generous shower of mineral water) but it went something along this:

Half-Orc Red Dragon Sorcerer 7 (not wild blooded, the delay in casting spells is not worth it. You loose so much utility) /Dragon Disciple 4 with approximate stats of 16/12/16/12/10/15. The robe pushed me enough to grant me wings and honestly I feel 7th level is the maximum for DD levels as the class is just not very good. If your AC/HP is exceptional you can cut it off earlier.

It is just stupid that a Dragon Disciple5/Dragon Disciple 7 learns Dragon Form on the same damn level and sacrifices 2 levels for that AND is locked into his dragon type. The class is written terribly.

1. I'm not really suited for blasting, as I did wind up taking Magical Knack and I have a variant bloodline with a different ability. Though I will keep in mind to pick something up.

2. I do have flight speed from Wyvaran(though it's probably no good for combat at the moment due to clumsy maneuverability) and with the campaign setting I can't ever be certain about getting one.

3. What spells would be good for ramping up my damage or my attack rolls? I do get 5 attacks with the claws included right now.

Also, what would be ideal cut off points for DD? I don't quite want to break out before DD 8 because that Int boost there. It is another point of AC and increase in spell DC for me.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Are you married to playing a Sorcerer? A lot of DMs allow Bloodrager access to DD since it synergizes much better.

[Geddy2112]

Update here after getting word from my DM. He is going to allow me to stack Crossblooded/Wildblooded and has ruled that the Sage bloodline will affect all my bloodline powers; including those that DD touches on.
In this case, you are doing pretty well for yourself buildwise. That said, if you didn't need charisma you could have dumped it outright, and you still need to increase your STR as well, and the other physical stats don't hurt.


3. What spells would be good for ramping up my damage or my attack rolls? I do get 5 attacks with the claws included right now.

Also, what would be ideal cut off points for DD? I don't quite want to break out before DD 8 because that Int boost there. It is another point of AC and increase in spell DC for me.

Alter self is a good disguise utility spell, and a free +2 strength as another medium creature. Although not a damage spell, false life is a great spell to know to buff your HP, as it is eventually an all day buff. Siphon might is both a good debuff and powerful buff for you. Haste is incredible for you and the whole party. THe monstrous physique spells are decent depending on what you choose, but that is more about getting extra attacks, not increasing the ones you have.Since you probably won't have access to stat boosting items, the fox's cunning, bull's strength and similar spells may be very useful. Decapitate is a high level spell to know, but it buffs critical hits with your claws.

8 is the very latest any character should be in DD, and it is really only for you because of the INT boost, otherwise you would have left at 6 or possibly earlier. You already have wings from being a wyvern(not to mention fly spell, overland flight, and could get them as a bloodline power etc), and 9th level is a non spellcasting level increase. 10th level 2nd form of the dragon/day and increasing your blindsense is garbage. As an aside, you should probably take the arcane bloodline power at level 9 for the extra spells over dragon breath, and the school focus power at level 15 over wings.

[QuadraticGish]

Are you married to playing a Sorcerer? A lot of DMs allow Bloodrager access to DD since it synergizes much better.
It was a big consideration during concepting along with the Magus' Eldritch Scion archetype.


In this case, you are doing pretty well for yourself buildwise. That said, if you didn't need charisma you could have dumped it outright, and you still need to increase your STR as well, and the other physical stats don't hurt.
Our attributes started at 3d6s with a pool of 7d6 to distribute to each stat to boost our chances of getting a better stat as it was stilll keep 3. They were rolled straight, so I'm stuck with what I'm stuck with. It's pretty ironic since I rolled a higher strength on this character than on my Warder in a campaign run by someone else in this group.



Alter self is a good disguise utility spell, and a free +2 strength as another medium creature. Although not a damage spell, false life is a great spell to know to buff your HP, as it is eventually an all day buff. Siphon might is both a good debuff and powerful buff for you. Haste is incredible for you and the whole party. THe monstrous physique spells are decent depending on what you choose, but that is more about getting extra attacks, not increasing the ones you have.Since you probably won't have access to stat boosting items, the fox's cunning, bull's strength and similar spells may be very useful. Decapitate is a high level spell to know, but it buffs critical hits with your claws. Ah, I forgot alter self that. Though do I still keep my natural attacks and wings like that? I'm assuming not. I honestly forgot that False Life had that long duration, I'll probably be picking that up. Haste is always good and the Brood Master already has it, but there's always room for more. For Monstrous Physique, what are some good forms to look out for? Also, holy crap decapitate; I've genuinely never heard of this spell before. This is definitely a keeper.



8 is the very latest any character should be in DD, and it is really only for you because of the INT boost, otherwise you would have left at 6 or possibly earlier. You already have wings from being a wyvern(not to mention fly spell, overland flight, and could get them as a bloodline power etc), and 9th level is a non spellcasting level increase. 10th level 2nd form of the dragon/day and increasing your blindsense is garbage. As an aside, you should probably take the arcane bloodline power at level 9 for the extra spells over dragon breath, and the school focus power at level 15 over wings.
So the clumsy maneuverability on my racial wings shouldn't be an issue later? I'm a bit worried it might be since it does mean a hefty -8 to all my fly checks. Any ideas for feats I should take down the line? I'm thinking about picking up Prestigious Spellcaster at 7th and it's prerequisite next level to grab back a level of spellcasting I would normally lose out on.

[Geddy2112]

Our attributes started at 3d6s with a pool of 7d6 to distribute to each stat to boost our chances of getting a better stat as it was stilll keep 3. They were rolled straight, so I'm stuck with what I'm stuck with. It's pretty ironic since I rolled a higher strength on this character than on my Warder in a campaign run by someone else in this group.
So you straight up old school rolled stats. You did say it was a modified AD&D. Sounds pretty hardco



Ah, I forgot alter self that. Though do I still keep my natural attacks and wings like that? I'm assuming not. I honestly forgot that False Life had that long duration, I'll probably be picking that up. Haste is always good and the Brood Master already has it, but there's always room for more. For Monstrous Physique, what are some good forms to look out for? Also, holy crap decapitate; I've genuinely never heard of this spell before. This is definitely a keeper.
You lose wings and stuff when you polymorph, but you can always whip out your bloodline claws. Alter self is a cheap dirty buff if you need to save higher level spell slots, don't need flight, or need a disguise. It also has a better duration.

There is a guide to polymorphing here (http://rpgbot.net/pathfinder/characters/polymorph.php) and several others floating around online. The best forms grant better fly speed(and maneuverability) and a ton of natural attacks. There are plenty of utility forms:special senses like scent, movement like swim or burrow speeds, water breathing, and depending on what you shift into, a good disguise.


So the clumsy maneuverability on my racial wings shouldn't be an issue later? I'm a bit worried it might be since it does mean a hefty -8 to all my fly checks. Any ideas for feats I should take down the line? I'm thinking about picking up Prestigious Spellcaster at 7th and it's prerequisite next level to grab back a level of spellcasting I would normally lose out on.
By the time you get the wings in DD, you get them by taking a normal level in sorcerer. Plus, you can polymorph into a form that flies. Or cast fly/overland flight. With a single rank in fly, you reduce the penalty to -4,-3 with your dex mod. Keep in mind that this is your base flight, the kind you will rarely if ever use, but good enough to have until you can rely on all day magic or permanent wings. Also, it is a nice backup against being dispelled/antimagic field. Most fly checks are really easy and you only need them doing complicated things.

Even with your garbage BAB, power attack is a good feat for you. I would use my bloodline feats to grab it. Improved initiative is always good, and also a bloodline feat. At higher levels you want quicken spell, which is again, a bloodline feat. I would consider combat casting as you might be casting in melee and concentration checks are not guaranteed.