A thought on wish spells.

[Dankus Memakus]

Ive seen many wishes used and they either destroy the universe or are an utter waste. I began to think of creative wishes that wouldn't break the game (as much) and i thought, instead of wishing for the inability to die, why not wish for something to increase your power level or versatility. So im thinking instead of bogus wishes why not ask for something extremely useful to a 20th level character. Like lets say you are a wizard, why not wish for the ability to copy any spells into your spellbook, even if they are cleric or druid or bard, or if you are a barbarian why not wish for unending rage. Do you guys think that would break the game? I mean sure it does if the characters are weaker but if they are around level 20 i think it could enable them to do really cool things if the party was clever enough. I mean what if you had three wishes from an efreet and the the two i already stated were asked for and then the paladin asked for incorruptible souls for his party and then they destroyed all the planes of evil? I feel like then although the party may be very powerful the game could continue with very small amounts of broken-ness.Thoughts? Also please tell me cool wish ideas

[Mith]

A few points:

Barbarians already get unlimited rage, so that would not be a good wish.

I wouldn't think that incorrigible souls can be given, only made buy the individual choice. Even if they can be given, how would 3 souls destroy all Evil?

As for good wishes, I think looking at noon ideas might be a start. If I were a Barbarian, I would probably wish for maximum HP for my level. If I have a +7 CON bonus, that puts me at 380 HP if I have done my math right.

[Dankus Memakus]

A few points:

Barbarians already get unlimited rage, so that would not be a good wish.

I wouldn't think that incorrigible souls can be given, only made buy the individual choice. Even if they can be given, how would 3 souls destroy all Evil?

As for good wishes, I think looking at noon ideas might be a start. If I were a Barbarian, I would probably wish for maximum HP for my level. If I have a +7 CON bonus, that puts me at 380 HP if I have done my math right.
I dont play barbs so i didnt know that lol
I thought the lower planes could corrupt souls? I may have been incorrectly educated then.
Max hp is a good choice in upping ypur power level

[dejarnjc]

Like lets say you are a wizard, why not wish for the ability to copy any spells into your spellbook, even if they are cleric or druid or bard,

That's how the genies get ya, you can copy em but you can't prepare em!

Or you can copy them but they must be copied using ink/blood from the blood of innocents.

[Mith]

I dont play barbs so i didnt know that lol
I thought the lower planes could corrupt souls? I may have been incorrectly educated then.
Max hp is a good choice in upping ypur power level

They can corrupt souls, yes, but all that wish does is make the lower planes lose out on a few souls.

[Vaz]

Or you can copy them but they must be copied using ink/blood from the blood of innocents.

Has that ever been an issue?

[Mith]

Has that ever been an issue?

Heck, the warlock already runs an orphanage for just this thing.

[Bobkin]

A few points:

Barbarians already get unlimited rage, so that would not be a good wish.

I wouldn't think that incorrigible souls can be given, only made buy the individual choice. Even if they can be given, how would 3 souls destroy all Evil?

As for good wishes, I think looking at noon ideas might be a start. If I were a Barbarian, I would probably wish for maximum HP for my level. If I have a +7 CON bonus, that puts me at 380 HP if I have done my math right.

You could wish for unlimited Rage as a Fighter/Barbarian.


Similarly you could wish for higher level features for a class that you are multi-classed into.

[Dankus Memakus]

You could wish for unlimited Rage as a Fighter/Barbarian.


Similarly you could wish for higher level features for a class that you are multi-classed into.

I guess you could wish for unarmored defense even while wearing armor, or the ability to rage in heavy armor

[Bobkin]

I guess you could wish for unarmored defense even while wearing armor, or the ability to rage in heavy armor

Lol... I like where your going with this.

[Dankus Memakus]

Lol... I like where your going with this.
...i like heavy armor lol.

[SkyKirasagi]

If my wizard ever gets a wish, I'm thinking of asking for perfect memory of every spell he's ever copied into a spell book, which mechanically speaking would mean having all my learned spells prepared at all times. I don't think it's too broken at a high level, as it doesn't technically make me more powerful, just vastly more versatile without needing to prepare for specific situations. Thoughts?

[Vaz]

Yes that's broke.

[Aett_Thorn]

Some ideas:

1) My Ranger wishes to have everything count as a favored enemy (plus Wisdom to damage once a round against everything isn't that broken)

2) My Bard wishes to increase the Bardic Inspiration die to a d20 (or maybe just 2d8)

3) My Druid wishes to become an immortal, speaking tree (because he's weird like that)

4) My Fighter wishes to have all of the fighting styles from the PHB

5) My Paladin wishes to have his auras extend up to 180 feet

6) My Dwarf Battlerager wishes to have better spiked armor, spiked gauntlets, and a freakin' head spike, finally

7) My Warlock wishes to be able to take two additional invocations. Or, he wishes that his Mystic Arcanum spells can come from any spell list

8) My monk wishes to achieve true inner peace, so that he can clobber foes better

9) My Cleric wishes to be able to pick additional uses for his Channel Divinity from an additional domain's choices.

[Bobkin]

1) My Ranger wishes to have everything count as a favored enemy (plus Wisdom to damage once a round against everything isn't that broken)
You instead get your favorite Ice Cream and deal 1d6 acid damage to it each round until it is fully digested.


2) My Bard wishes to increase the Bardic Inspiration die to a d20 (or maybe just 2d8)
Sure, just pay $9.99 each time you make a roll of the d20. I think that's fair.


3) My Druid wishes to become an immortal, speaking tree (because he's weird like that)
You know what, I'll just let this one go. Done. Treebeard isn't going to be smashing any dragons anytime soon anyway.


4) My Fighter wishes to have all of the fighting styles from the PHB
Okay. But, the ghost of Bruce Lee will not be happy.


5) My Paladin wishes to have his auras extend up to 180 feet
Is that really what you want extended up to 180 feet?


6) My Dwarf Battlerager wishes to have better spiked armor, spiked gauntlets, and a freakin' head spike, finally
Eh.... I think I'll give you a cat toy instead.


7) My Warlock wishes to be able to take two additional invocations. Or, he wishes that his Mystic Arcanum spells can come from any spell list
He also gets a cat toy.


8) My monk wishes to achieve true inner peace, so that he can clobber foes better
Cat toy.


9) My Cleric wishes to be able to pick additional uses for his Channel Divinity from an additional domain's choices.
Do I look like a bible thumper?

[Dalebert]

I'm a fan of just wishing for "safe" things, i.e. 8th level or lower spell effets. That means you should almost always wish for a simulacrum of a powerful character who can give you what you want, including possibly casting a lot of spells for you that you can't cast yourself.

[JackPhoenix]

It isn't that simple.

You've got three choices when you cast Wish: Safe and reliable wish to cast level 8 or lower spell, unsafe (as in, you risk never be able to cast Wish again and pretty nasty penalties to boot) and reliable effects from the list, and unsafe and unreliable effects, which include everything else, and directly advice the DM to screw you over through literal interpretation of the spell.

And remember, it is the character making the wish, not the player: asking for "maximum hp for your level" doesn't make any sense, because the character has no idea levels or hp exist.

So from all Aet Thorn's wishes? Druids gets turned into immortal talking tree... normal tree that can talk, but that's it. Enjoy. And the monk would get inner peace, which means he would no longer have any desire to fight anyone. Everything else doesn't make sense from character's PoV.

[Mith]

It isn't that simple.

You've got three choices when you cast Wish: Safe and reliable wish to cast level 8 or lower spell, unsafe (as in, you risk never be able to cast Wish again and pretty nasty penalties to boot) and reliable effects from the list, and unsafe and unreliable effects, which include everything else, and directly advice the DM to screw you over through literal interpretation of the spell.

And remember, it is the character making the wish, not the player: asking for "maximum hp for your level" doesn't make any sense, because the character has no idea levels or hp exist.

So from all Aet Thorn's wishes? Druids gets turned into immortal talking tree... normal tree that can talk, but that's it. Enjoy. And the monk would get inner peace, which means he would no longer have any desire to fight anyone. Everything else doesn't make sense from character's PoV.

On one hand, directly screw over your players, sure. I would give them some sort of heads up that you are going to try and scree them over.

My suggestion of max HP is based on that being something theoretically achievable by the characater during their career. It is unlikely to roll 20 12s in a row with health, but it is possible. And is not terribly broken like some of the other suggestions. And yes you would word such a thing for an in character point of view. I was just giving the initial idea.

[Dankus Memakus]

I have a good thought. Lets say you have a Lawful good human wizard who wants to be a lich and eternally learn and protect the society but he wants to not have to commit atrocities to be a lich, why not wish for lichdom. I mean sure, thats probably game breaking but itd be kinda fun.

[Mjolnirbear]

On one hand, directly screw over your players, sure. I would give them some sort of heads up that you are going to try and scree them over.

My suggestion of max HP is based on that being something theoretically achievable by the characater during their career. It is unlikely to roll 20 12s in a row with health, but it is possible. And is not terribly broken like some of the other suggestions. And yes you would word such a thing for an in character point of view. I was just giving the initial idea.

Why? It's wish. Every cultural reference to wishes demonstrates how horribly wrong they can go. Jokes, fairy tales, movies, proverbs, books, games, myths, religious doctrines... In fact, I defy you to find me *one* "everything went as planned" wish. I know of exactly one: when Aladdin wishes for Genie's freedom.

There is no need to warn players about the risks to wishes.

And the problem with wishing for Max HP isnt that it's OP, it's that it is that HP is a fourth-wall abstract. So are levels, game terms like AC and spell levels, and mechanics like Advantage or rolling dice.

I'm not a huge meta game nazi. Sure, you recognise the dragon, you don't need to roll to see if you know. But even I wouldn't accept a wish phrased in game terms.

[Sigreid]

I have a good thought. Lets say you have a Lawful good human wizard who wants to be a lich and eternally learn and protect the society but he wants to not have to commit atrocities to be a lich, why not wish for lichdom. I mean sure, thats probably game breaking but itd be kinda fun.

No one with a wisdom over 6 should want to be a lich. Long life, extra power, and spend all that time trapped in a corpse. Lichdom isn't immortality, it's death without getting to move on. :smallbiggrin:

A good wish is from the risky and reliable list. Start stacking those resistances to essentially double your HP in as many circumstances as possible. Side benefit, it helps with concentration checks. :smallsmile:

[Sariel Vailo]

I asked for a major buff if i can increase my int to at least twenty six dm made me able to go beyond twenty but i had to spend all those asi and get the damn book it was fun now tho the wizards int 30 dm said but con 12 and strength 9

[Mjolnirbear]

Casts Mordankainen's Punctuation

[Mith]

Why? It's wish. Every cultural reference to wishes demonstrates how horribly wrong they can go. Jokes, fairy tales, movies, proverbs, books, games, myths, religious doctrines... In fact, I defy you to find me *one* "everything went as planned" wish. I know of exactly one: when Aladdin wishes for Genie's freedom.

There is no need to warn players about the risks to wishes.

And the problem with wishing for Max HP isnt that it's OP, it's that it is that HP is a fourth-wall abstract. So are levels, game terms like AC and spell levels, and mechanics like Advantage or rolling dice.

I'm not a huge meta game nazi. Sure, you recognise the dragon, you don't need to roll to see if you know. But even I wouldn't accept a wish phrased in game terms.

Pigmillion wishing for his statue to come to life worked out pretty well for him, for one.

If the requirement is for in game terms, HP can also be referred to as vitality, as the more vitality you have, the more you can survive combat and trauma. My idea can be translated to "I wish to have the most vitality that a mortal of my stature can achieve."

I think difference in conflicts here is what one may be picturing with wish. I never played at high level games, so my only experience with wishes is with effective boons from an immortal creature. That might explain why I don't immediately jump to "screw one over by their own words", as I am used to the idea that there is some guidance behind the wish, as it is a gift, not just a regular spell.

[Dankus Memakus]

Casts Mordankainen's Punctuation

I found this extremely funny lol

[imanidiot]

From the PHB description of Wish. EMPHASIS MINE.

"You MIGHT be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, THE GREATER THE WISH THE GREATER THE LIKELIHOOD THAT SOMETHING GOES WRONG. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish."

[Beelzebubba]

im thinking instead of bogus wishes why not ask for something extremely useful to a 20th level character. Like lets say you are a wizard, why not wish for the ability to copy any spells into your spellbook, even if they are cleric or druid or bard, or if you are a barbarian why not wish for unending rage. Do you guys think that would break the game?

I like the idea! A few thoughts.

1) Punks like me were breaking the game this way since 1982. Welcome to the club. :smallbiggrin:

2) In the DMG on 227, there are examples of cool things to give characters like you're proposing, and on 231 they go into 'Epic' boons. I'd take a look at the ones in the DMG and scale the home-brew ones accordingly.

3) At 20th level the game is already 'broken' in a few ways :smallbiggrin:, so it's not an issue like it would be at, say, 5th level.

I think it depends on what you give to each person, because one small 'boon' to one character type may absolutely break another. For example, in my 3.X game, an Archer character - with a Portable Hole full of quivers of arrows - found Boots of Flying. He became absolutely unstoppable - he'd just move out of threat range and skewer everyone. If you're careful, and let players know ahead of time if it's accidentally game-breaking then you two will need to change it later, you'll be fine.

Overall, though, I LOVE that kind of stuff. It makes a character unique and flavorful. It's the same reason I always prefer taking a feat like 'Observant' over a +2 Wisdom bonus. You can be really creative with this. In fact, I'd aim for 'enhancing character flavor' over 'power' any day.

[Rhynear]

I'd probably go with something like having the Foresight spell be active on you at all times since at high levels it allows you to cast a different 9th level spell and it scales in strength with the strength of the character so it shouldn't break to many things.

[Vaz]

I'd probably go with something like having the Foresight spell be active on you at all times since at high levels it allows you to cast a different 9th level spell and it scales in strength with the strength of the character so it shouldn't break to many things.
Wait... Your idea of having a 9th level spell cast on you giving you abilities in line with that, is the equivalent of having 3 9th level spells cast on you, and still have your 9th level slot available...

What?

[Theodoxus]

I had a player who gained a wish from a deck of many things. He wished for everyone in the world to know who he was. His character wanted to be the most famous fighter in the world - so he found an easy short cut. However, he got ravaged with the wish's backlack and decided to retire - traveling the world, basking in his fame.

The player brought in a new character, but I made sure to reference his old one every chance I got. The price of fame. It was funny at first, but everyone at the table grew tired of hearing the exploits of the Crimson Avenger everywhere they went. The fact that no one believed they knew him 'before he was famous' was just icing on the cake.

[Mjolnirbear]

Pigmillion wishing for his statue to come to life worked out pretty well for him, for one.

If the requirement is for in game terms, HP can also be referred to as vitality, as the more vitality you have, the more you can survive combat and trauma. My idea can be translated to "I wish to have the most vitality that a mortal of my stature can achieve."

I think difference in conflicts here is what one may be picturing with wish. I never played at high level games, so my only experience with wishes is with effective boons from an immortal creature. That might explain why I don't immediately jump to "screw one over by their own words", as I am used to the idea that there is some guidance behind the wish, as it is a gift, not just a regular spell.

Pygmalion's statue was en-fleshed by Aphrodite. It's not a wish, it's a miracle. But sure, why not. It doesn't actually change my point; there is no need to warn your players about the risks of casting Wish. Your last paragraph shows we are coming from different places indeed. The spell is cast by mortals (fallible) or by djinn (malevolent); something benevolent like a deity wouldn't be using the wish spell.

As for "the most vitality a mortal of my stature can achieve", off the top of my head here are some non-screwing interpretations:
* guy can have sex dozens of times a day
* guy gets younger
* guy becomes immune to disease
* guy can take a beating
* guy grows muscles like The Mountain
* guy becomes a dwarf
* guy stops needing to sleep
* guy gets jackie-chan-level fit
* guy's meat and two veg get bigger (vitality can be a euphemism)
* guy gets pregnant
* guy's touch causes plants to grow and bloom
* guy's touch causes healing
* guy is burgeoning with power
* guy can't sit still like the squirrel in Over the Hedge

Just that sentence...
What do you mean by stature? Height? Weight? Political power? Hierarchy?
By mortal? Dragons may or may not be mortal, and get bigger and stronger with age; maybe you'd grow 40 tall?
By achieve? Maybe you can achieve a lot through determination; maybe you're fated to not achieve much at all. Who's deciding what you can or can't achieve? Fate? The gods? You?

There is nothing in-character you can say that would explicitly mean HP.

If you were my player, and I trusted you to not break my game, I'd sit you down and say to ignore game rules, game terms, all of them. Pretend you *are* your character. What would your *character* want? Your character is the one making the wish. The génie is listening to your character's words. You say "HP" and you will get bottles of steak sauce.

[Dankus Memakus]

I had a cool thought, go fight a tarrasque or a great wrym or something and wish to be its duplicate and have like an epic tarrasque battle

[Sigreid]

I had a cool thought, go fight a tarrasque or a great wrym or something and wish to be its duplicate and have like an epic tarrasque battle

Or find you've just become a mating pair...

[JackPhoenix]

I had a cool thought, go fight a tarrasque or a great wrym or something and wish to be its duplicate and have like an epic tarrasque battle

Funny thing about that: tarrasque's attack don't count as magic, so they would be unable to hurt each other. And dragons fly, so there's that...

[FreddyNoNose]

Some ideas:

1) My Ranger wishes to have everything count as a favored enemy (plus Wisdom to damage once a round against everything isn't that broken)

2) My Bard wishes to increase the Bardic Inspiration die to a d20 (or maybe just 2d8)

3) My Druid wishes to become an immortal, speaking tree (because he's weird like that)

4) My Fighter wishes to have all of the fighting styles from the PHB

5) My Paladin wishes to have his auras extend up to 180 feet

6) My Dwarf Battlerager wishes to have better spiked armor, spiked gauntlets, and a freakin' head spike, finally

7) My Warlock wishes to be able to take two additional invocations. Or, he wishes that his Mystic Arcanum spells can come from any spell list

8) My monk wishes to achieve true inner peace, so that he can clobber foes better

9) My Cleric wishes to be able to pick additional uses for his Channel Divinity from an additional domain's choices.

DM breaks out the Judges Guild Ready Ref sheets, turns to page 36 and refers to the Wishes & Limit Wishes section and table. Ok then......

[FreddyNoNose]

Pygmalion's statue was en-fleshed by Aphrodite. It's not a wish, it's a miracle. But sure, why not. It doesn't actually change my point; there is no need to warn your players about the risks of casting Wish. Your last paragraph shows we are coming from different places indeed. The spell is cast by mortals (fallible) or by djinn (malevolent); something benevolent like a deity wouldn't be using the wish spell.

As for "the most vitality a mortal of my stature can achieve", off the top of my head here are some non-screwing interpretations:
* guy can have sex dozens of times a day
* guy gets younger
* guy becomes immune to disease
* guy can take a beating
* guy grows muscles like The Mountain
* guy becomes a dwarf
* guy stops needing to sleep
* guy gets jackie-chan-level fit
* guy's meat and two veg get bigger (vitality can be a euphemism)
* guy gets pregnant
* guy's touch causes plants to grow and bloom
* guy's touch causes healing
* guy is burgeoning with power
* guy can't sit still like the squirrel in Over the Hedge

Just that sentence...
What do you mean by stature? Height? Weight? Political power? Hierarchy?
By mortal? Dragons may or may not be mortal, and get bigger and stronger with age; maybe you'd grow 40 tall?
By achieve? Maybe you can achieve a lot through determination; maybe you're fated to not achieve much at all. Who's deciding what you can or can't achieve? Fate? The gods? You?

There is nothing in-character you can say that would explicitly mean HP.

If you were my player, and I trusted you to not break my game, I'd sit you down and say to ignore game rules, game terms, all of them. Pretend you *are* your character. What would your *character* want? Your character is the one making the wish. The génie is listening to your character's words. You say "HP" and you will get bottles of steak sauce.

There is where the language has a problem as well as a bit of meta gaming problems. OOC, simply ask the DM how such things correlate in terms of improving HP but using terms appropriate to wish. A DM might balk at this but it is worth asking for and if he keeps balking, then take the hint and forget about hit points. Also, take into account in 1st ed dmg, if your attribute score is at 16, you can only increase it by 1/10th of a point per wish. So there are limits. Many of what people have suggested above are just OP.

[Dankus Memakus]

Pygmalion's statue was en-fleshed by Aphrodite. It's not a wish, it's a miracle. But sure, why not. It doesn't actually change my point; there is no need to warn your players about the risks of casting Wish. Your last paragraph shows we are coming from different places indeed. The spell is cast by mortals (fallible) or by djinn (malevolent); something benevolent like a deity wouldn't be using the wish spell.

As for "the most vitality a mortal of my stature can achieve", off the top of my head here are some non-screwing interpretations:
* guy can have sex dozens of times a day
* guy gets younger
* guy becomes immune to disease
* guy can take a beating
* guy grows muscles like The Mountain
* guy becomes a dwarf
* guy stops needing to sleep
* guy gets jackie-chan-level fit
* guy's meat and two veg get bigger (vitality can be a euphemism)
* guy gets pregnant
* guy's touch causes plants to grow and bloom
* guy's touch causes healing
* guy is burgeoning with power
* guy can't sit still like the squirrel in Over the Hedge

Just that sentence...
What do you mean by stature? Height? Weight? Political power? Hierarchy?
By mortal? Dragons may or may not be mortal, and get bigger and stronger with age; maybe you'd grow 40 tall?
By achieve? Maybe you can achieve a lot through determination; maybe you're fated to not achieve much at all. Who's deciding what you can or can't achieve? Fate? The gods? You?

There is nothing in-character you can say that would explicitly mean HP.

If you were my player, and I trusted you to not break my game, I'd sit you down and say to ignore game rules, game terms, all of them. Pretend you *are* your character. What would your *character* want? Your character is the one making the wish. The génie is listening to your character's words. You say "HP" and you will get bottles of steak sauce.
You could ask to be twice as healthy as a hill dwarf, since they get the boost to hp hopefully you could get some extra hitpoints for that