What can I do with Cunning Action + Fast Hands Sleight of Hand?

[puzzler7]

In the near future I will (hopefully) be playing a Thief rogue with expertised sleight of hand. This means that I start with a +7 Sleight of Hand bonus, which becomes +11 by level 4. With Cunning Action and Fast Hands, I can use my bonus action to make a Sleight of Hand check. This apparently has no limits, except for whatever DC the DM decides to set, and my imagination. So what trickery can I pull off with this?

Some of my ideas:
- Unstrap someone's armor/shield.
- Use the rope provided by burglar's pack to tie someone's feet together, tripping them (which, incidentally, gives me advantage and sneak attack).
- Use said rope to tie an enemy to an adjacent enemy/nearby object.
- Unstring someone's bow/cut their bow string

Thoughts? What else can I do?

[Quoxis]

The normal use is drinking/applying a potion. No DM will disallow that. Holiest of ****s, by RAW this isn't allowed. Probably still allowed by any DM you ask, but technically not AL legal. Whoa.
The rest... More problematic. All in all i'd try and use the environment to your benefit. Kick a firebowl/brazier (?) over to create difficult terrain with potential fire damage, throw your grappling hook up a balcony, climb up (which thieves get a bonus to!) and shoot the baddie from high up, throw the wizard's familiar in or out of the opponent's reach (which is forced movement and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks), perform a rude gesture...

[polymphus]

Yeah I don't think I'd allow the stuff you listed, if I was DMing. It's simply too powerful -- easily knocking people prone/disarming etc without a save should not be available of level 2.

I mean, I'd allow you to try, but it would be an extremely difficult check that even a +11 is gonna have an extremely hard time with.

Fast Hands is extremely good, but you're trying to make it godlike and I think you're pushing against the designers' intentions.

[Coffee_Dragon]

With Cunning Action and Fast Hands, I can use my bonus action to make a Sleight of Hand check. This apparently has no limits

It presumably has all the limits Sleight of Hand would have normally, such as not making you invisible.


Some of my ideas:
- Unstrap someone's armor/shield.
- Use the rope provided by burglar's pack to tie someone's feet together, tripping them (which, incidentally, gives me advantage and sneak attack).
- Use said rope to tie an enemy to an adjacent enemy/nearby object.
- Unstring someone's bow/cut their bow string

Why would any of these be Sleight of Hand and not Use an Object? Why would anyone let you do any of these things in combat? If you can do any of them with the target standing stock still allowing you to do it, why don't you just slit their throat instead?

[Vogonjeltz]

In the near future I will (hopefully) be playing a Thief rogue with expertised sleight of hand. This means that I start with a +7 Sleight of Hand bonus, which becomes +11 by level 4. With Cunning Action and Fast Hands, I can use my bonus action to make a Sleight of Hand check. This apparently has no limits, except for whatever DC the DM decides to set, and my imagination. So what trickery can I pull off with this?

Some of my ideas:
- Unstrap someone's armor/shield.
- Use the rope provided by burglar's pack to tie someone's feet together, tripping them (which, incidentally, gives me advantage and sneak attack).
- Use said rope to tie an enemy to an adjacent enemy/nearby object.
- Unstring someone's bow/cut their bow string

Thoughts? What else can I do?

As noted, Sleight of Hand doesn't do any of those things. Let's refer to PHB 177 for what it's used for:

"Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person".


The normal use is drinking/applying a potion. No DM will disallow that.

Drinking a potion is explicitly an action, and not included in the Use an Object action. So, it's not one of the valid uses of Fast Hands.

[Armored Walrus]

Drinking a potion is explicitly an action, and not included in the Use an Object action. So, it's not one of the valid uses of Fast Hands.

Fast Hands explicitly allows you to take the Use an Object action as a bonus action. So drinking a potion is absolutely allowed RAW.

Note the Sleight of Hand skill doesn't allow you to do anything you normally couldn't do. It simply allows you to do it without being seen (opposed by the opponents passive perception). So OP's examples are all things that anyone could do in combat, the opponent would just see them do it, and it would require an action. They all fall under the Actions in Combat rules

"When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the GM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure."

Fast Hands just lets you attempt it as a bonus action instead, and gives you a chance that the enemy won't notice that you did it. At my table, you'd have a hard time convincing me that you managed to tie a rope around their feet in the middle of combat, without them noticing. But undoing a strap I might allow, with some type of roll, like an attack roll, or like an opposed grapple roll. I probably would allow you to roll sleight of hand to see if you do it subtly, and succeeding on that roll would give you advantage on the roll to actually undo the strap.

[Kane0]

Pickpocket someone as you stab them or steal a weapon they aren't currently holding
Pickpocket and plant something on the same turn (action + bonus)
Throw caltrops/coins/ball bearings as a bonus action
Throw a lasso
Use a gnomish device
Use an alchemical item (flash powder, smokestick, tinder twig, etc)
Apply poison to weapon
Trigger a trap/device

[polymphus]

Pickpocket someone as you stab them or steal a weapon they aren't currently holding
Pickpocket and plant something on the same turn (action + bonus)
Throw caltrops/coins/ball bearings as a bonus action
Throw a lasso
Use a gnomish device
Use an alchemical item (flash powder, smokestick, tinder twig, etc)
Apply poison to weapon
Trigger a trap/device
Quoting hard. OP read this quote ^. All of these are much more reasonable uses. I'm not 100% on 'throw a lasso' (since it's essentially an extra attack) but the rest are all much more solid.

While stuff like 'cutting a shield strap' miiiiiight be RAW it's horribly OP and I don't think DMs would allow it without severe restrictions.

[puzzler7]

Alright, thanks! I definitely will be making use of those.

I can understand why my original ideas would be OP/unallowed. Would you, as a DM, allow tying a rope to someone's belt (presumably to the back of it, when they aren't looking)? Could I cut their bowstring if it was on their back?

[mephnick]

Fast Hands explicitly allows you to take the Use an Object action as a bonus action. So drinking a potion is absolutely allowed RAW..

I allow it at my table but I'm pretty sure it's not RAW and was established as against the rules pretty early on. Maybe someone can track down a sage advice.

[Armored Walrus]

Heh, DMG page 141, Activating an Item - (referring to magic items) "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."

Of course, here they call the action Use an Item, and in the Fast Hands description they call it the Use an Object action, and on PHB 193 they also call it the Use an Object action.

<walks away shaking his head>

[mephnick]

<walks away shaking his head>

Pretty much. That's why I allow it. Fast Hands can be used to field dress a wound with a med kit in a bonus action but drinking a potion is..too complicated..or something?

[Armored Walrus]

Yep, I would've said that's why I ignore Sage Advice, but that's actually RAW...

There is no thief at my table, but if I ever have one I will definitely allow drinking a potion with Fast Hands.

Back on topic. Here's a cool idea, I think. I would attempt to "shank" a target to get the jump on them at the end of a social encounter. Use Sleight of Hand to draw my dagger without the target seeing it, as a bonus action thanks to Fast Hands, and then attack with my action.

[Zene]

Use your bonus action each round to work on an origami crane. Gently set it on your enemy's head when done.