What intiates Combat?

[Footman]

Hello, i have a Rules Question that is giving me Headache.

Okay so here is the Problem:
We have a Spell Dancer Magus with the Dimensional Agility Feat stealthed around 200 Feet away from a Divination Wizard. Both of them are Lvl 20.
Now before Intiative is rolled, the Magus activates his Spell dance (and waits a Round). He would like to Swift Action D-Door next to the Wizard and cast (which he gained via Spell Blending) Antimagic Field. Then he would tell the Wizard that he is gonna kill him now.

So my Questions:
Is there a Suprise Round?
You can only Take a Standard Action or a move Action, which means our Magus can't use his Swift Action to D-Door. The Forewarned Ability of the Divination Wizard will Activate and the Wizard will know "Something will Attack me now!". Now the Magus having no other option than crossing this Distance waits out the Suprise round and does Nothing, since he wants to Swift Action D-Door and Cast Antimagic Field on his First Turn, which he can't do in the Suprise Round.
So is the Suprise round always forced, wherever the Magus wants to or not?

Second Possibility:
Since the Magus doesn't Attack the Wizard with anything, there is no Suprise Round, and Combat starts when the Magus tells the Wizard that he will kill him, since both the Swift D-Door and the Antimagic Field have been Cast before Combat Actually begins. Forewarned doesn't activate since there is no Suprise round, since there was no Attack.

My Head hurts.
Does anyone have an Idea how to rule this?

Thanks for answers in advance.

[Dekion]

Okay, first of all, the Monk can take a swift action during a surprise round, as, per the details under swift actions "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action," and a surprise round would qualify. Mechanically translating events like this is difficult, because it doesn't make a lot of sense, but, at this point, I would rule that the monk has intent, so they both roll initiative and things play out from there as this seems to be what the rules indicate. The Wizard has a good chance of winning initiative (auto 20 plus 10 plus Dex plus feats/traits/other abilities,) and as such taking a standard action to prepare (knowing something is up,) including getting the heck out of there. This could render the intentions of the monk moot, as he may no longer have a target, or may have a much better prepared target than anticipated. However, if the wizard is still within range, and the monk can get to him and cast his anti-magic field in the surprise round, it all may come down to how the dice fall.

[Aracor]

Okay, so a surprise round occurs when not everyone in combat is aware of the fight. So in this case, unless the wizard somehow finds out that the magus is there before combat initiates (such as hearing the verbal components of the dimension door spell), the magus gets a surprise round. If the magus chooses not to act on the surprise round and the wizard is still not aware of the magus, combat was never initiated. The only way the magus will get a full-round on the wizard before the wizard gets to act is if the magus actually beats the wizard in initiative.

But the magus CAN swift action dimension door and cast antimagic field in the surprise round, because as mentioned above, you can take a swift action in the surprise round. At that point, then it's up to initiative.

Second possibility is incorrect. He is initiating combat with the swift dimension door and antimagic field - that's the surprise round.


To put it simply, combat starts when any party takes any kind of offensive action against another party. If both (or all) sides are aware, roll initiative. If one or more sides is unaware, there's a surprise round.

[Kallimakus]

As far as I am concerned, initiative is rolled before the magus can take the swift action. After that, assuming that the Wizard fails Perception check, there is a surprise round. Divination wizard's forewarning kicks in, and they get to act, potentially before the Magus.

Subsequently it depends on the Wizard. He is aware of a threat, but not the Magus. He might try another active Perception roll, or cast a spell, or ready an action. I will assume that spell dance doesn't break stealth (since it doesn't say it does), though as a GM I would probably tule The other way. That aside, depending on who goes first, the Wizard might get another full turn before the Magus can dimension door.

Furthermore, Dimension Door prevents any other action before the caster's next turn, regardless of action used.

[Footman]

Thanks for the answers.
But i think you can take a Swift Action in the Suprise Round.

Here is a Special Ability of the Rogue Archetype "Bandit."


Ambush (Ex)
At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.


If you could take a Swift Action, why would it be specifically detailed in this ability that the Rogue can take it? If you could take a Swift anyway it would make no sense to mention it specifically in the Ability.

[Dekion]

Dimensional agility removes the "end of turn" effect of dimension door.

[Dekion]

But i think you can't take a Swift Action in the Suprise Round.

Core Rulebook p.188 under Swift Actions would beg to differ, per my quotation bracketed text in my first reply.

[Footman]

Core Rulebook p.188 under Swift Actions would beg to differ, per my quotation bracketed text in my first reply.

I have read it.


Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic item.



The Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

While it is not outright stated, but the Rogue Archetype implies something different. You can "normally" take a Swift Action whenever you could take a Free Action.
The Suprise Round seems to be an Exeption. Otherwise it would not make sense to specifically mention it in the Rogue Ability.

[Yanisa]

I have read it.

While it is not outright stated, but the Rogue Archetype implies something different. You can "normally" take a Swift Action whenever you could take a Free Action.
The Suprise Round seems to be an Exeption. Otherwise it would not make sense to specifically mention it in the Rogue Ability.

There is also a part under Restricted Activity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Restricted-Activity) (page 183 of the core rulebook) that specifically says you can take a swift action during any moment you are limited to only a move- or standard action. The core rule book (in a rare case) is really solid on repeating this.
My guess is that the writer of the archetype wasn't aware of this rule (or plainly forget during the writing). It happens a lot with Pathfinder, especially the smaller companion books suffer from this because they are less proof read.

Then again it doesn't really matter because there won't be a surprise round. Both combatants are always aware of combat. One because he wants to start combat, and one because of magical foresight. What actually the start of combat is isn't explained in the rules, as far as I know, so that's seems to be a DM call. In any case there won't be a surprise round.
It gets double weird if the wizard wins initiative and then counters the action that started combat. So the trigger of combat is an action that never will happen.

I, personally, would play it out like with activating spell dance as the start of combat, because the Magus only does that as part of the ambush, thus with hostile intent. The Wizard (failing his perception check) knows he is in combat but is unable to fight (and casts a buff?). Then round 2 kicks in with the Magus casting dimension door and doing his thing. (Also in my take it doesn't really matter if there is a swift round or not... unless the wizard is a PC.)

[Footman]

@Yanisa

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Aracor]

I missed the divination wizard part. So update.

If the wizard fails the perception check, there is a surprise round. The wizard probably wins initiative, and can act without knowing what is threatening them or where they are. This may take the form of a readied action, or simply casting a spell. A readied action (depending on wording) may result in the wizard casting a spell after the magus casts dimension door and appears, but before they can manage to cast antimagic field.

If the wizard succeeds at the perception check to see the magus, then there's no surprise round. They both roll initiative to determine who goes first.

It sounds like the magus is trying to guarantee at least one full round of actions if not more before the wizard gets to act. That simply cannot be guaranteed. Honestly, the wizard probably gets more than one perception check in this situation because the magus has been moving around in the bushes for a while taking actions.

Using dimension door and then antimagic field is absolutely a hostile act and would comprise the magus's first actions in combat, either a surprise round or the first round. After that, the wizard will get a chance to take actions of their own.

[Yanisa]

I missed the divination wizard part. So update.

If the wizard fails the perception check, there is a surprise round.

To be honest I made it sound if it was more clear then the rules actually are, but...:

Forewarned (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/) works even when you fail an perception check.
A surprise round (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Surprise) can only happen if 1 or more of the combatants are unaware of combat.
The magus, the ambusher, starts combat, thus is always of combat.
The wizard, having forewarned is always aware of combat, or else he couldn't act in an surprise round.
Because everyone is aware of combat there cannot be a surprise round.
Yet the wizard is unaware of the magus because he failed that perception check. (He does know that general combat is about to happen because his forewarned triggered.)
A computer would crash about here.

I interpreted this as a normal round starts, instead of an surprise round, in which the Wizard knows there is combat but is unaware of who is about to attack him. (And the Magus can do his spell dance)
You can also argue this would lead to an surprise round in which everywhere is aware, but that goes against the whole definition of a surprise round. Then again this is an abnormal situation.

[Aracor]

To be honest I made it sound if it was more clear then the rules actually are, but...:

Forewarned (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/) works even when you fail an perception check.
A surprise round (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Surprise) can only happen if 1 or more of the combatants are unaware of combat.
The magus, the ambusher, starts combat, thus is always of combat.
The wizard, having forewarned is always aware of combat, or else he couldn't act in an surprise round.
Because everyone is aware of combat there cannot be a surprise round.
Yet the wizard is unaware of the magus because he failed that perception check. (He does know that general combat is about to happen because his forewarned triggered.)
A computer would crash about here.

I interpreted this as a normal round starts, instead of an surprise round, in which the Wizard knows there is combat but is unaware of who is about to attack him. (And the Magus can do his spell dance)
You can also argue this would lead to an surprise round in which everywhere is aware, but that goes against the whole definition of a surprise round. Then again this is an abnormal situation.
But Forewarned specifically says it allows the wizard to act in the surprise round, so based on that wording, the surprise round absolutely still happens. And it also specifically says that the wizard is still flat-footed until they act, so you are absolutely correct that this results in a surprise round in which everyone is aware.

There's no crash here because the bolded part is actually incorrect - until the surprise round actually occurs, forewarned doesn't trigger. The magus starts combat and rolls initiative. Since the wizard is unaware, there is a surprise round. Forewarned activates, allowing the wizard to act in the surprise round. Wizard rolls initiative, gets a 30+modifiers (due to natural 20 + 1/2 of wizard level). Wizard may actually go first against a threat they weren't even aware of due to the awesome power of divination, but since they're still unaware of the threat, they might not be sure how to respond.

[Yanisa]

There's no crash here because the bolded part is actually incorrect

The problem parts of the rules as:

Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round.

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens
The wizard must be aware, or else he cannot act in an surprise round. But because all combatants are aware, a surprise round shouldn't happen. (*) Because no surprise round happens, forewarned doesn't trigger. Thus the Wizard is unaware of combat. Thus the Magus gains an surprise round, thus forewarned triggers, does the surprise round fails, thus magus surprise round, thus forewarned, etc.

*This is were I would quit and set the combat to a normal round where the wizard is aware of combat but not his assailant.
But I agree you can use the same reasoning to get a surprise round in which everyone acts. Then again, I knew a player who used that line of thinking to claim there should always be an surprise round in every single combat. And that would have bogged down the game, so I am kinda biased against that.

[Aracor]

The wizard must be aware, or else he cannot act in an surprise round. But because all combatants are aware, a surprise round shouldn't happen. (*) Because no surprise round happens, forewarned doesn't trigger. Thus the Wizard is unaware of combat. Thus the Magus gains an surprise round, thus forewarned triggers, does the surprise round fails, thus magus surprise round, thus forewarned, etc.

*This is were I would quit and set the combat to a normal round where the wizard is aware of combat but not his assailant.
But I agree you can use the same reasoning to get a surprise round in which everyone acts. Then again, I knew a player who used that line of thinking to claim there should always be an surprise round in every single combat. And that would have bogged down the game, so I am kinda biased against that.
Your first statement is clearly false. The forewarned supernatural ability explicitly states that it allows the diviner to act in the surprise round despite failing their perception check (i.e. being unaware). The issue is that this is a rather unusual example - there are only two combatants. This does create a strange situation in which all combatants act in the surprise round, but I don't see how that's problematic.

Maybe you can clarify - how would having a surprise round every combat bog down the game? Literally the only difference between a surprise round and the first round of combat is that not everyone gets to act, and you're limited to either a standard or move action rather than a full-round action. In my experience, over half of combats DO have a surprise round simply because fights don't necessarily occur on planet bowling ball, and it's not uncommon (especially in combats with large numbers of combatants on both sides) for at least one combatant on either side to be unaware that combat is starting. The more combatants, the more likely this is.