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thereaper
2017-08-03, 07:00 AM
Specifically, for the purposes of resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapons.

Obviously, a sword or a bow is considered a weapon. But what about improvised weapons? Or unarmed strikes?

What I'm most interested in, though, is how it relates to monsters. Is a bandit's unarmed strike treated as a weapon? What about a monster's claws and teeth?

nickl_2000
2017-08-03, 07:07 AM
Specifically, for the purposes of resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapons.

Obviously, a sword or a bow is considered a weapon. But what about improvised weapons? Or unarmed strikes?

What I'm most interested in, though, is how it relates to monsters. Is a bandit's unarmed strike treated as a weapon? What about a monster's claws and teeth?

For immunity to non-magical weapons it is immune to anything that does non-magical damage. That means natural weapons, unarmed strikes, improvised weapons, or actual melee/ranged weapon.

What it isn't immune to - Magic spells, Monk Fists after level 6, Druid Wild shape after level 6, any damage from a magical item.

Quoxis
2017-08-03, 08:29 AM
Addition:
Fists/teeth/headbutts aren't weapons, though attacking with them (e.g. any kind of unarmed strike) is considered making a melee weapon attack.
Improvised weapons are weapons you don't add your proficiency bonus to (unless you got the tavern brawler feat).
Most monsters attack with "natural weapons" like claws or bites. Those are weapons, as the name implies.

Twizzly513
2017-08-03, 10:16 AM
Regardless of RAW, in my games if you can hold it then it counts as a weapon. Not necessarily a good weapon. But to me if you can use it to hurt someone it counts as a weapon.

Quoxis
2017-08-03, 02:24 PM
Regardless of RAW, in my games if you can hold it then it counts as a weapon. Not necessarily a good weapon. But to me if you can use it to hurt someone it counts as a weapon.

That IS RAW. Improvised weapon. If i recall correctly, the fluff text even mentions a dead goblin as an improvised weapon.

thereaper
2017-08-03, 03:02 PM
Addition:
Fists/teeth/headbutts aren't weapons, though attacking with them (e.g. any kind of unarmed strike) is considered making a melee weapon attack.
Improvised weapons are weapons you don't add your proficiency bonus to (unless you got the tavern brawler feat).
Most monsters attack with "natural weapons" like claws or bites. Those are weapons, as the name implies.

That would imply that unarmed strikes natively bypass immunity to nonmagical weapons, since they aren't weapons.

Easy_Lee
2017-08-03, 03:08 PM
You need to distinguish between weapons and weapon attacks.

Anything on the weapons table counts as a weapon, except for unarmed strike. These things can be buffed with magic weapon, elemental weapon, etc.

If you make an attack with an object, unarmed strike or otherwise, then that's a weapon attack. This is what the resistance is supposed to apply to. Immunity to nonmagical weapons really means nonmagical attacks, unless I'm mistaken.

Quoxis
2017-08-04, 12:59 AM
That would imply that unarmed strikes natively bypass immunity to nonmagical weapons, since they aren't weapons.

The monk feature that makes their fists magical weapons for the sole purpose to overcome the immunity to nonmsgical ones implies otherwise.

thereaper
2017-08-04, 07:28 AM
The monk feature that makes their fists magical weapons for the sole purpose to overcome the immunity to nonmsgical ones implies otherwise.

Yep, I was reading that too (though it specifies "nonmagical attacks", which doesn't appear to be a thing). The RAW and RAI appear to be in conflict here.

Zalabim
2017-08-04, 08:35 AM
The Errata changes it to non-magical attacks, and I think also defines magical attacks. A magical attack is an attack delivered by a spell, a magic item, or another magical source.

DivisibleByZero
2017-08-04, 09:02 AM
Improvised weapons are weapons you don't add your proficiency bonus to (unless you got the tavern brawler feat).

Wrong.
An Improvised weapon is an item which is NOT a weapon, but is being used AS a weapon.

I can use a soccer ball to play basketball. That doesn't make the ball a basketball. It means I'm using a soccer ball, which is NOT a basketball, AS an Improvised basketball.
There's a difference. It's still a soccer ball, and not a basketball.

I can use a knitting needle to stab someone. That doesn't make a knitting needle a weapon by the game's standards.
The things that are weapons by the game's standards are listed on the weapon table (which is completely subject to DM fiat, but is exhaustive unless the individual DM rules otherwise).

lperkins2
2017-08-04, 04:10 PM
The things that are weapons by the game's standards are listed on the weapon table (which is completely subject to DM fiat, but is exhaustive unless the individual DM rules otherwise).

It is not exhaustive, just essentially so. Specifically, the section on improvised weapons says an item which resembles a weapon off that list closely enough should be treated as the weapon it resembles. This is mostly subject to DM fiat, but does list a table leg as essentially like a club. While an obtuse DM could make a table leg which would not work as a club, there is another RAW source which lists weapons not on that table. Specifically, the Monk, if from an exotic area, might use weapons not on the table, in which case the exotic weapon's statistics are taken from the entry on the table which mostly closely resembles the monk weapon. At present, neither of these exceptions have a statistical impact on the game, but it is evidence that the designers may add sources of different weapons later, and that list is not designed to be exhaustive.

DivisibleByZero
2017-08-04, 10:03 PM
It is not exhaustive, just essentially so. Specifically, the section on improvised weapons says an item which resembles a weapon off that list closely enough should be treated as the weapon it resembles.

No, that isn't what it says.
What it says is that the DM may decide to allow that.
So I repeat: the weapons list is exhaustive unless individual DMs decide otherwise.

Atalas
2017-08-04, 10:11 PM
Regardless of RAW, in my games if you can hold it then it counts as a weapon. Not necessarily a good weapon. But to me if you can use it to hurt someone it counts as a weapon.

been in a situation where the party was arrested, the fighter had shackled himself to a cultist we had just beaten up. We were stripped of weapons, and myself (cleric) and the wizard even had anti-magic manacles put on us. Secret cult member guard was left with us, and proceeded to move to kill us. We were all unarmed. Or so we thought, until the fighter, with his 18 STR score, proceeded to use his manacles to turn his prisoner into a makeshift flail. He then proceeded to BEAT THE ARMED GUARD to death with our captured cultist.

Easy_Lee
2017-08-04, 10:13 PM
From the perspective of weapon features, as in stats and damage, the table is exhaustive. There's no legal way to wield a "weapon" (by the 5e definition of weapon) with stats outside of that table, since being a weapon means falling on that table. From a mechanical standpoint, it doesn't matter what your DM decides is and isn't a weapon. it's still on that table if it's a weapon, unless your DM opts to expand that table.

Quoxis
2017-08-05, 09:10 AM
Wrong.
An Improvised weapon is an item which is NOT a weapon, but is being used AS a weapon.

I can use a soccer ball to play basketball. That doesn't make the ball a basketball. It means I'm using a soccer ball, which is NOT a basketball, AS an Improvised basketball.
There's a difference. It's still a soccer ball, and not a basketball.

I can use a knitting needle to stab someone. That doesn't make a knitting needle a weapon by the game's standards.
The things that are weapons by the game's standards are listed on the weapon table (which is completely subject to DM fiat, but is exhaustive unless the individual DM rules otherwise).

No, that isn't what it says.
What it says is that the DM may decide to allow that.
So I repeat: the weapons list is exhaustive unless individual DMs decide otherwise.

Likewise, you showed that you can state your opinion to try and shut someone up, but that doesn't make it RAW, it means you're stating your opinion.


The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the fantasy gaming worlds, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess.

[...]

Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to Attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead Goblin.

Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.

An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the GM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object).


An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, and if it is similar (in shape/function) to an actual weapon you can treat it as such, otherwise it is a 1d4 weapon.
The one thing that is up to GM fiat is whether the wielder can add their proficiency bonus (and yet again: with the tavern brawler feat, even that isn't needed). The improvised weapon is therefore treated like a weapon from the weapon list, but reflavored (unless it's one of the obscure d4 weapons), and if that and the fact that it's called an improvised weapon doesn't make it a weapon for you, i'm unable to help.

P.S.: Of course any GM can come up with their own rules and simply say "no, you can't hit the enemy with broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead Goblin, and if you do it'll do no damage", but that would be a house rule. The phb is rather clear on this one.