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Vasdenjas
2007-08-09, 11:47 AM
Hey everyone! I'm creating a Master of Many Forms (MoMF) for a campaign that I'm jumping into, and get to start at level 11. I made a Human with Able Learner, so I have a number of ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Speak Language. Add in my bonus from Wild Shape (humanoid, or whatever form I take), a Ring of Mind Shielding, and a Headband of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic, and I'm set for being a decent infiltrator. That is, until I run into a mid-to-high level Cleric or Wiz/Sorc, who happens to have True Seeing up, in which case all my skills/powers are simply wasted.

So, is there anything that might help me bypass this situation, at least even possibly? Like, any combination of Misdirection, Non-detection....anything? Even something that may at least make the guy make a Caster Level check to see through my disguise?

My forms will still be decent in combat (even though technically, any 17th+ level full caster w/ Shapechange will be better than a MoMF any day, so I still feel it's not completely balanced), but I'd like to be able to be a bit spy-ish as well. Thanks for any input all! :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2007-08-09, 12:06 PM
Site crashed as I was posting last time ...
A mundane disguise kit will foil True Seeing. Remember, TS only punches through magical disguises.

crazedloon
2007-08-09, 12:11 PM
non-detect forces a caster level check for divination spells to detect you or see you normally as true seeing is a divination spell it should work.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-09, 12:14 PM
A mundane disguise kit works well. There is also some controversy as to weather a spell (I can't remember the name) that protects one from divination effects on one's self (mind blank?) would prevent true seeing from working. I am inclined to say yes, since true seeing seems to screw quite a lot of things for characters and NPCs alike as there is currently no way around it (except hiding and a nonmagical disguise kit).

Zim
2007-08-09, 12:15 PM
Cast Blindess on your target. No sight=no problem.

Dausuul
2007-08-09, 12:16 PM
Hey everyone! I'm creating a Master of Many Forms (MoMF) for a campaign that I'm jumping into, and get to start at level 11. I made a Human with Able Learner, so I have a number of ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Speak Language. Add in my bonus from Wild Shape (humanoid, or whatever form I take), a Ring of Mind Shielding, and a Headband of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic, and I'm set for being a decent infiltrator. That is, until I run into a mid-to-high level Cleric or Wiz/Sorc, who happens to have True Seeing up, in which case all my skills/powers are simply wasted.

So, is there anything that might help me bypass this situation, at least even possibly? Like, any combination of Misdirection, Non-detection....anything? Even something that may at least make the guy make a Caster Level check to see through my disguise?

My forms will still be decent in combat (even though technically, any 17th+ level full caster w/ Shapechange will be better than a MoMF any day, so I still feel it's not completely balanced), but I'd like to be able to be a bit spy-ish as well. Thanks for any input all! :smallbiggrin:

Well, I haven't dug through all the books, but my first impulse is to say you're screwed in that situation. True seeing is very hard to beat. What you want to do is find ways to avoid ever getting into a position where such a caster is looking at you; or, if you know you're going to be facing true seeing, prepare a mundane disguise instead.

Fortunately, true seeing only has a 1 minute/level duration, so it's unlikely that a wizard or cleric will be walking around with it active for no reason. So your best defense is not to give them a reason. Make sure your Bluff and Disguise skills are as high as you can possibly get them; you might even want to dip a level in rogue, which would raise the cap to 3+level and let you take full advantage of Able Learner. Be careful and avoid doing anything suspicious. If you encounter a wizard or cleric whom you suspect has the ability to cast true seeing, find an excuse to leave the room ASAP.

In the event that you do get spotted, your best bet is to do one of two things. Either escape and then pick a new shape the moment you're out of sight, or force the wizard or cleric to keep your secret safe. I'm not aware of any spells that let a druid do the latter (though a high Intimidate might be useful), and a magic item won't have a high enough save DC to beat a caster's Will save. For the former, I recommend a cape of the mountebank or something along those lines.

Once your party arcanist hits level 15, it is possible that mind blank will shield you from true seeing. However, this depends very heavily on how your DM interprets the wording of the two spells.

Falrin
2007-08-09, 12:21 PM
Wizard:
Hey look that drow/centaur/mindflayer is actually a guy with a moustache. better not investigate then.

Polymoprhed guy:
hehe, my disguise worked, I know a moustache would be a solid way to hide my true identity from these drow/centaur/mindflayer.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-08-09, 12:25 PM
Fortunately, true seeing only has a 1 minute/level duration, so it's unlikely that a wizard or cleric will be walking around with it active for no reason.

Actually, a Incarnate can put up a constant true seeing effect at 19th level. You have 2 things going for you here:
1. Your GM probably won't use Incarnum magic.
2. He probably won't send 19th-level NPCs after you unless he's sadistic.

Iku Rex
2007-08-09, 01:16 PM
You just need nondetection (caster level check). Depending on the DM's interpretation, mind blank may also do the trick.

Dausuul
2007-08-09, 02:00 PM
You just need nondetection (caster level check). Depending on the DM's interpretation, mind blank may also do the trick.

Hmm...

Looking at the text of nondetection, it does appear that you're right by RAW; anyone using "a divination" must attempt a caster level check. However, it looks as if the intent of the spell was to keep you from pinging "magic radar" spells like detect evil and scrying, rather than to prevent anti-illusion spells from defeating your illusions and polymorphing. So I would definitely check with your DM before counting on it to save you from true seeing.

Fixer
2007-08-09, 02:36 PM
Already mentioned:
Mundane disguise
Non-Detection
Mind Blank

Getting Creative:
Geas/Quest/Charm spells on casters (risky as they tend to have high will saves)
Contingent Dispel Magic (set to go off upon divination by True Seeing)
Personalized Anti-Magic Field (custom spell, I think you stay in your assumed form in an antimagic field, but I forget.)

Clove
2007-08-09, 02:48 PM
You can use the "Metal Gear" ultimate infiltration tool. A cardboard box.

Hide in box. No one can see you.

"Huh... It's a box" *guard walks away*

Seriously though, you could focus on staying out of sight completely and rely only on the disguise when you absolutely must interact with others.

Person_Man
2007-08-09, 02:52 PM
The solution is intelligent Roleplaying. People don't just walk aroud with True Sight continuously on. They generally need a reason to cast it. Don't give them one.

FYI, Polymorph is an easily broken spell, and MoMF is well known to be a clearly broken PrC. Unless your entire party is very powerful, avoid turning into Hydra and other crazy forms. It will just make everyone else feel worthless, and although it might be cool the first time, they'll quickly grow to resent you.

Vasdenjas
2007-08-09, 03:22 PM
Hey all. Thanks for the great ideas.

Physical Disguise skill - I thought about this as well, but it would work only for certain races (i.e. - other human-like medium humanoids). If I was trying to infiltrate an Orc camp, for example, I think it would be difficult to come up with the right body paint and such.

Mind Blank - This spell doesn't seem like it would work, RAW. Only works on Diviniations and effects targetting thoughts or emotions.

Nondetection - This looks like a good option. I'd have to talk with my GM, and see his interpretation, but yeah, it does say 'a diviniation', not specific ones. Hmm...I'd have to look into maybe getting a ring that would let me cast it 2-3 times per day, but a decent caster-level....like 10+.

Cardboard box - Awesome idea! Of course, I'd rather have from the original Metal Gear "Remoto Conturol Missile"!!

Unfortunately, none of the spell-casting options will work for me. As a MMF, I'm giving up the majority of my spellcaster levels. Yeah, MoMF ends up being pretty weak compared to a full-caster/Shapechange Druid, but I guess it's more of a style choice than a power one. Oh Well.

As for intelligent rp'ing, I'll definitely have to do a lot of that. However, there are items that give continuous True Sight, but they're expensive, so unless I give the GM a reason to hate me, maybe I won't have to worry. :smallbiggrin: Maybe it's just me, but True Sight just seems too powerful, like it should need to make a Caster level check as is, since right now it can just outright defeat any illusion, even those of higher level spells, like Weird, Shades, and Screen

I also don't intend to overpower the other PC's. I won't be able to do Hydra (Magical Beast, plus I'm not taking the Frozen Wildshape feat for Cryo-Hydra). I've visited the Wizards CO boards, so I know the tricks, but the majority of them are just way too cheese for me. I'll be using a different form for every battle. Dire Lion, Troll, Ogre, Pixie....mix it up a lot!

Tokiko Mima
2007-08-09, 03:31 PM
Do you think a contingency with the conditions of "someone within 300 feet has a true seeing spell active" and a greater dispel set to activate would work?

RAGE KING!
2007-08-09, 03:39 PM
i dont know crap about magic, but would an ioun stone be able to absorb the spell?

Iku Rex
2007-08-09, 04:01 PM
Mind Blank - This spell doesn't seem like it would work, RAW. Only works on Diviniations and effects targetting thoughts or emotions.Actually, it "protects against ... information gathering by divination spells or effects". If you look at the rest of the spell description it's clear that this is not restricted to divinations that target "thoughts and emotions". Example from the spell description: arcane eye.

The 3.0 main FAQ mentions "...mind blank's ability to block ... all forms of divination..."

So this is very much a debatable issue per the RAW.

However, the semi-official answer is that nondetection can block see invisible or true seeing, while mind blank can't. You can find some old threads with e-mail answers from the then-sage or CustServ through Google.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showpost.php?p=263622&postcount=30 (Sage answer from 2002 on mind blank mentioning nondetection)
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12550004&postcount=30 (CustServ answer from 2007 on nondetection)

Aximili
2007-08-09, 04:56 PM
That is, until I run into a mid-to-high level Cleric or Wiz/Sorc, who happens to have True Seeing up, in which case all my skills/powers are simply wasted.
Considering that trueseeing has a 1min/lvl duration, you'd have to be very highly unlucky to run into someone currently under it's effect. So you really shouldn't be too worried about that.
And it still only sees through magical disguises, so you'll just have to be a bit more careful when pretending to be something you can't use regular disguises for.:smallwink: