Breaking BM: Revised

[Easy_Lee]

For those who haven't heard, there's a revised Ranger in UA. It's so popular that I hear some AL DMs allow it, and there are rumors that it will soon become official.

With that in mind, I think it's time to revisit an old character build.

For the sake of this build, I'll stick to PHB + Revised Ranger only. I'll let the playground decide what they might do if given the option to use other source books.

What's New

The revised ranger is significantly different from the base. The following are the most important differences for our purposes:

You no longer select any beast that meets the size and CR requirements. Instead, a list is provided from which rangers "normally" select a companion.
The beast now gains ASIs, hit dice, and two additional skills, is proficient with all saves, uses your proficiency, and gains your favored enemy feature. Most importantly, it now acts on its own.
Beast Conclave no longer gains extra attack. I suggested this a long time ago for a free acting beast. Looks like WotC had the same idea.
The BM level-up features are significantly different. The beast no longer shares spells with you at any level, but it can make a reaction attack whenever you attack and gains a whirlwind attack.
From a JC tweet, magic items attuned to companions have no effect on your attunement slots. This both confirms that your companion can attune items, and also that it doesn't stop you from doing the same. Double attunement slots.
Because you can revive the beast, it isn't the end of the world if it dies.

With the above in mind, our ideal strategy changes.

We want to be in melee range with our beast, because its attacks are powerful. Using reach weapons could interfere with the beast's reaction attack, so we should stick to normal range only.

Modifiers to attack, for our beast, are very powerful due to its two attacks and multiattack feature.

TWF, for the first time ever, is actually the ideal way to go because you don't get extra attack and want to be in melee. You still want a backup hand crossbow just in case.

Lore

Mastiffs are impressive hounds prized by humanoids for their loyalty and keen senses. Mastiffs can be trained as guard dogs, hunting dogs, and war dogs. Halflings and other Small humanoids ride them as mounts.

That's right, the saddle we need exists in this universe. Anything that fits a mastiff can easily be modified to fit a samd-size wolf.

The Build

http://img12.deviantart.net/1b7d/i/2014/229/f/9/wolfrider_by_butchrbill-d7vl3j2.jpg
It looks like a child riding a pet dog. This is the cutest build ever!

Stout Halfling
Stats: Dexterity > Wisdom > Constitution
Feats: Mounted Combatant at 4
Tools: Leatherworker's Tools
Skills: we don't need stealth, acrobatics, insight, or perception. Doggo has those taken care of. This opens us up to a variety of more interesting skill builds.
Gear:

Two scimitars or shortswords, a hand crossbow
Studded Leather or your best medium armor (stay light so Doggo can carry you)
A backpack with leatherworker's tools and plenty of doggo food.
A mastiff saddle from a halfling village which we will modify (leatherworker's tools) to fit a wolf - assuming this is even needed.

Spells: Cure Wounds (in case companion goes down), Jump, Darkvision, Water Walk, any other spells you need to ensure you're able to function in the environment.

Doggo
Trait: I stay on alert so others can rest
Flaw: if there's food left unattended, I'll eat it.

We choose a wolf. He has proficiency in perception and stealth, and has advantage on perception checks based on smell or sound (Keen Hearing and Smell). We'll add acrobatics and insight via Beast Conclave - Doggo knows when you're lying.

He also has Pack Tactics.

He has a bite attack for 2D4+2. From the stat block, this appears to be Dex-based (+4 to hit, +4 stealth, 15 dexterity = 2 + 2 proficiency).

Whenever he bites someone, they must succeed on a strength saving throw or fall prone. This is DC 11, which might be based on his strength (8+2+1) or even his constitution or wisdom - it doesn't say. It also isn't clear whether this scales - ask your DM. I would think it would increase with his proficiency at least, so let's say it scales to DC 15 without any stat changes.

He has a D8 hit die, so he'll have 3(D8+CON) when we get him - assuming we treat him like a player, it'll be HP 21. If we use the beast statblock and add a D8 +1 CON, that's HP 17.

He has natural armor = 13. That's really nice, because it means we don't need to find barding (though there's no reason we can't later). He adds your proficiency bonus to this, so his AC ranges from 15 to 19.

ASIs go to dexterity first, then constitution or wisdom - your choice. If your DM decides the bite DC is based on strength, consider leveling strength instead of dexterity, though that will change your barding choice (see below).

Playstyle and Special Tactics

We're riding Doggo. Pack tactics gives him advantage on every attack. If he prones a target with bite, then our whole party gets advantage on melee attacks. There's no size limit to bite, by the way.

If you expect traps, take the dodge action. Doggo already has advantage on dexterity saving throws from Mounted Combatant, and will probably have the same dexterity mod that you do.

If you're incapacitated, have Doggo carry you out of there. If he's incapacitated, heal him with cure wounds. You and Doggo fight as a team and watch each other's backs.

Coordinated attack: when you attack, your companion can use its reaction to attack. That's really nice. With TWF, that's four attacks/round at level 5, two of which force a strength save or prone. Who else can do that every round?

Due to proficiency and scaling ASIs, Doggo will eventually be making at least two bite attacks per round with advantage, dealing 2D4+5(Dex)+6(Prof) and forcing a strength save or prone on a hit. That's average 16 damage per hit, by the way, better than two flurry attacks from a monk. And we haven't even equipped him with anything.

At level 11, Doggo gains storm of claws and fangs, which is fantastic because there's no reason not to use this every turn. Unlike a hunter ranger, Doggo won't lose his second attack for doing this as long as we attack on the same turn. That means you can effectively whirlwind attack and still make three normal attacks in the same round. That's better than a hunter. If these count as bite attacks, you can knock a hoard prone. His attacks still have advantage from pack tactics, by the way.

Special tactic: you take the dodge action, Doggo moves into position. If it attracts any attacks, redirect them to yourself and those attacks have disadvantage.
Dash: Doggo has a speed of 40' and can dash without losing his reaction. That means you can move 80' and still make three attacks that round. You could also jump off him and dash + bonus action dash (revised rangers can do that) if you really needed to move 155' that round for whatever reason. But don't do that. Doggo doesn't get left behind.

Barding: if we give him studded leather barding, Doggo's AC can go as high as 23. This is very good. We should be able to craft this ourselves using downtime.

Attunement: attune Doggo to any magic items he can equip. As per the tweet above, this won't interfere with your attunement.

Conclusion

The revised ranger is a significant improvement over the base. Beast Masters are no different. The new version lets us do a lot of things we couldn't before.

Four attacks per round every round at level 5 is unheard of - hunters can only do this if they take horde breaker and TWF / crossbow expert and are fighting multiple foes. Against a horde past level 11, the sheer number of attacks possible per round is astronomical, and there's no downside to it.

Doggo will likely have more HP than the party wizard. Due to proficiency, he'll also have better saves, as his dexterity and either constitution or wisdom saves will be competitive with a player's. And if your DM is a goofball and lets you swap Doggo's ASIs for feats, the possibilities are endless.

Good dog.

[PartyChef]

I did a similar build with a Kobold. Pack Tactics all around. It is also fun to role play it as the Kobold serves/worships the wolf (since he is mostly there to heal the wolf and trigger his reaction attack).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Might want to specify (Revised) Ranger- I thought that this thread was about the BattleMaster Fighter.

Here's a problem for you- how is Doggo overcoming resistance to non-magical attacks? Because past level 6 or so, you're going to be running into a lot of those, and it'll cut your wolfs damage in half.

[Easy_Lee]

Might want to specify (Revised) Ranger- I thought that this thread was about the BattleMaster Fighter.

Here's a problem for you- how is Doggo overcoming resistance to non-magical attacks? Because past level 6 or so, you're going to be running into a lot of those, and it'll cut your wolfs damage in half.

You'll have to find a magic item for it, such as the Insignia of Claws from HotDQ.

[Desteplo]

I'm sure you can buy it make silvered, adamantine, magical metal claws for your animal. Like rooster fighting metal claw

[Easy_Lee]

I'm sure you can buy it make silvered, adamantine, magical metal claws for your animal. Like rooster fighting metal claw

Well, for a wolf you'd want to enhance its teeth. So get it a crunk grill, I guess. Maybe you can do some Wolverine operation on it with a fabricating wizard, unsure.

[Lolzyking]

I like the revised ranger but I hate the new beast list.

I've been playing a regular BM Kobold with a Giant crab, its the most effective character I've ever played, I've never been so succesful at capturing and taking enemies alive before.

[Gignere]

Well, for a wolf you'd want to enhance its teeth. So get it a crunk grill, I guess. Maybe you can do some Wolverine operation on it with a fabricating wizard, unsure.

I think that is the balancing factor on 5 attacks at level 5. 3 attacks at half damage on most mobs is still good.

[mephnick]

Doggo doesn't share your initiative and if you're riding him doesn't get to attack per the mounted combat rules. Even if the DM allowed it to attack you'd constantly be readying to wait for your animal's turn since you'd likely beat it in initiative. Revised Ranger is better, but it destroyed the mounted BM build.

[Sigreid]

Doggo doesn't share your initiative and if you're riding him doesn't get to attack per the mounted combat rules. Even if the DM allowed it to attack you'd constantly be readying to wait for your animal's turn since you'd likely beat it in initiative. Revised Ranger is better, but it destroyed the mounted BM build.

So I just re-read to make sure. If you're going to go shorty mounted BM, I'd go for crossbow expert at level 4. The critter gets it's goodies when you take the attack action and/or it can see you. It doesn't need you to do a melee attack. So, hand crossbow seems the way to go though you should talk to your DM about it first since he might rule that your pet can't properly see you with you on its back. I wouldn't rule that way, but I could see it out of some.

[Arcangel4774]

Doggo doesn't share your initiative and if you're riding him doesn't get to attack per the mounted combat rules. Even if the DM allowed it to attack you'd constantly be readying to wait for your animal's turn since you'd likely beat it in initiative. Revised Ranger is better, but it destroyed the mounted BM build.

You can allow the mount to act independently, which allows it to function as normal (it can take attacks and any other actions) and keep it's turn in initiative. In combat it acts as the player wishes, regardless of mounted status, unless the player is unconscious. A DM should allow it to attack if he pays attention to the rules, but you are right in having to wait in terms of initiative. Doubley so, in fact, as you as the range have advantage on initiative roles.

[Arcangel4774]

He has a bite attack for 2D4+2. From the stat block, this appears to be Dex-based (+4 to hit, +4 stealth, 15 dexterity = 2 + 2 proficiency).

Whenever he bites someone, they must succeed on a strength saving throw or fall prone. This is DC 11, which might be based on his strength (8+2+1) or even his constitution or wisdom - it doesn't say. It also isn't clear whether this scales - ask your DM. I would think it would increase with his proficiency at least, so let's say it scales to DC 15 without any stat changes.

ASIs go to dexterity first, then constitution or wisdom - your choice. If your DM decides the bite DC is based on strength, consider leveling strength instead of dexterity

And if your DM is a goofball and lets you swap Doggo's ASIs for feats, the possibilities are endless.

Good dog.

I've been down the rabbit hole of guessing at where the beasts get their numbers. While ac is down right impossible to reason, you can figure out bite and it's rider based on the wolf stats and comparison yo other beast like a dire wolf. The bonus to attack is str/dex + prof. The rider effect to drag down is 8 + str + prof.

Oh and my dm is a goofball. My gf has her very own great wolf sif lol

[Zene]

there's a revised Ranger in UA. It's so popular that I hear some AL DMs allow it

I know this isn't really the point of your post, so I apologize for sidetracking a little. But just wanted to point out that any DMs allowing any UA material --whatever the reasoning--are definitely not playing AL. By definition.

[Lolzyking]

I know this isn't really the point of your post, so I apologize for sidetracking a little. But just wanted to point out that any DMs allowing any UA material --whatever the reasoning--are definitely not playing AL. By definition.

yeah The revised ranger article only mentions the next iteration may be AL legal for testing.

that means its still illegal.

[Beelzebubba]

This is great! Love the character and the analysis.

Our table had a new Ranger join, and I was going to suggest allowing the use of the UA.

He's a Tabaxi, and it would be hilarious if the cat...rode a cat.

[mephnick]

You can allow the mount to act independently, which allows it to function as normal (it can take attacks and any other actions) and keep it's turn in initiative. In combat it acts as the player wishes, regardless of mounted status, unless the player is unconscious. A DM should allow it to attack if he pays attention to the rules, but you are right in having to wait in terms of initiative. Doubley so, in fact, as you as the range have advantage on initiative roles.

Yep, ok you're right. Got confused. I'd still never played a mounted BM without getting permission to act on a shared initiative.

[Easy_Lee]

The initiative thing can be an issue. I've never played with a DM who wouldn't let players decide to delay their turn, but I realize they're out there.

That said, there's a way to cope.

We're most worried about the ranger going before the wolf. If that sort of thing will be a problem, we can take the Dueling style and build for medium armor with strength and a shield while the wolf builds for dexterity. This maximizes his chance of going first.

Say he loses anyway. On our turn, we'll ready an action to hit the chosen target when we get in range. We'll also bonus action cast ensnaring strike. The wolf charges, we attack, he attacks. This technically doesn't count for coordinated assault because it isn't the attack action, but a DM might ignore that, ask yours. More importantly, your foe just took two strength saving throws if both attacks hit, and both of them can make it difficult to get away. If he tries to get away and Doggo didn't already take his reaction via coordinated assault, he can take it now.

This build has higher AC as well, so it works better with mounted combatant. You could turn it into a horde tank by dodging every turn while the wolf whirlwinds (past 11). So that's a thing.

[Oramac]

Looks fantastic! I definitely want to play one of these now. My only critique is this part:


Modifiers to attack, for our beast, are very powerful due to its two attacks and multiattack feature.

The beast companion loses multiattack, if it has it. The UA is pretty specific about this, and even has a sidebar explaining why.

That being said, it's still a really cool build and will be a lot of fun!

[Easy_Lee]

Looks fantastic! I definitely want to play one of these now. My only critique is this part:



The beast companion loses multiattack, if it has it. The UA is pretty specific about this, and even has a sidebar explaining why.

That being said, it's still a really cool build and will be a lot of fun!

I meant whirlwind attack. So many terms. Whirlwind bite is powerful, and it gets better the more modifiers you can apply to it.

[Oramac]

I meant whirlwind attack. So many terms. Whirlwind bite is powerful, and it gets better the more modifiers you can apply to it.

Ahh yes. In that case, you're spot on. That's a fantastic feature.

[Oramac]

He's a Tabaxi, and it would be hilarious if the cat...rode a cat.

Sadly, Tabaxi are medium size. So by RAW they can't ride their Panther companion.

That said, were I the DM I'd definitely allow it, if only for the ridiculous visuals.

[Easy_Lee]

Sadly, Tabaxi are medium size. So by RAW they can't ride their Panther companion.

That said, were I the DM I'd definitely allow it, if only for the ridiculous visuals.

Well, the new beast conclave says beasts are usually picked from the given list. It doesn't say always, and does specify that the DM might pick for the player. Thus, a DM is well within his right to give the player whatever beast he deems fit, no homebrew or breaking of RAW required.

That said, what if you play a tabaxi child? There aren't rules for that, so it'd be up to the DM to decide size.

[GorogIrongut]

This is great! Love the character and the analysis.

Our table had a new Ranger join, and I was going to suggest allowing the use of the UA.

He's a Tabaxi, and it would be hilarious if the cat...rode a cat.

If I were the DM, I would deliberately go out of my way to custom design a companion/mount for this character. A Gigantic Rat for the cat to ride.

[Zorku]

I've been down the rabbit hole of guessing at where the beasts get their numbers. While ac is down right impossible to reason, you can figure out bite and it's rider based on the wolf stats and comparison yo other beast like a dire wolf. The bonus to attack is str/dex + prof. The rider effect to drag down is 8 + str + prof.

Oh and my dm is a goofball. My gf has her very own great wolf sif lol
There are only a couple of edge cases where it's hard to distinguish. For the most part natural armor on monsters just works like player armor except that they can't take it on or off.
At 13 AC and a +2 Dex mod the wolf is getting just 1AC from natural armor, which equates to leather or padded. The studded leather barding overrides natural armor to make the armor equation into 12+Dex, and since it's got this unusual proficiency boost to AC this tops out at 12+5+6=23 AC.

While I'm at it, the wolf statblock has a proficiency of +2, so the +4 to hit with a bite attack has to be dex based, since the Str is only +1. The rider does indeed seem to be Str based (8+2+1=11.) Con and Wis are set to the same +1 as Str, but wolves are not monks or anything weird like that, so it should be obvious that this is closely related to grappling. Where the bite is a melee attack you should be able to perform it with Str, but with a feat at level 4 you'd be waiting until at least level 12 before the to hit was better than starting Dex allows.

You've got proficiency and pack tactics making these rolls hit quite a lot more often than everyone else (anyone made the mistake of playing with the flanking rules? Yeah, like that,) and with all of these attacks, even when disadvantage cancels out your pack tactics, you're going to be getting a crit just about once every 5 rounds (18.55% for 4 attacks, 22.62% for 5. More than one crit happens 1.4%,2.25% of the time. The flurry attack can make this much more silly.)

Anydice.com apparently can't compute the crit chance for 5 attacks at advantage, but if I'm doing this correctly by hand... the 9.75% crit chance you have on each attack means we have a 33.66%,40.13% chance for at least one crit on 4,5 attacks w/ advantage. This means that you most likely crit once in every standard combat encounter... at level 5. With this many attacks I'm not sure you can expect combat to last 3 rounds though.

[Easy_Lee]

There are only a couple of edge cases where it's hard to distinguish. For the most part natural armor on monsters just works like player armor except that they can't take it on or off.
At 13 AC and a +2 Dex mod the wolf is getting just 1AC from natural armor, which equates to leather or padded. The studded leather barding overrides natural armor to make the armor equation into 12+Dex, and since it's got this unusual proficiency boost to AC this tops out at 12+5+6=23 AC.

While I'm at it, the wolf statblock has a proficiency of +2, so the +4 to hit with a bite attack has to be dex based, since the Str is only +1. The rider does indeed seem to be Str based (8+2+1=11.) Con and Wis are set to the same +1 as Str, but wolves are not monks or anything weird like that, so it should be obvious that this is closely related to grappling. Where the bite is a melee attack you should be able to perform it with Str, but with a feat at level 4 you'd be waiting until at least level 12 before the to hit was better than starting Dex allows.

You've got proficiency and pack tactics making these rolls hit quite a lot more often than everyone else (anyone made the mistake of playing with the flanking rules? Yeah, like that,) and with all of these attacks, even when disadvantage cancels out your pack tactics, you're going to be getting a crit just about once every 5 rounds (18.55% for 4 attacks, 22.62% for 5. More than one crit happens 1.4%,2.25% of the time. The flurry attack can make this much more silly.)

Anydice.com apparently can't compute the crit chance for 5 attacks at advantage, but if I'm doing this correctly by hand... the 9.75% crit chance you have on each attack means we have a 33.66%,40.13% chance for at least one crit on 4,5 attacks w/ advantage. This means that you most likely crit once in every standard combat encounter... at level 5. With this many attacks I'm not sure you can expect combat to last 3 rounds though.

I agree that strength is the most reasonable, I just mentioned constitution and wisdom because I couldn't guarantee I was right. Like I said, I can't guarantee that it scales either, since Beast Conclave says nothing about ability DCs scaling. But 8+STR+Prof is likely.

And yes, good point about crits. Advantage from pack tactics means the wolf will get these often. However, the trouble with wolf crits is that its weapon die is 2D4. Crits only add 2.5 damage. It's one more reason I'm not fond of the crit rules; crits from the iconic dagger-wielding assassin barely matter.

But altogether, having a high number of attacks is the build's main strength. As far as I know, no other build will get this number of attacks as reliably (as long as you can work out initiative, or your DM allows a combined turn which is ideal both for you and for keeping combat from taking forever). Saves aren't a big problem like they used to be, as the beast gets proficiency with everything (although INT saves will bite you in the ass).

What do you guys think about getting a druid to cast Awaken on Doggo? It wouldn't add much combat-wise, but it could be quite fun for RP.

[Oramac]

Well, the new beast conclave says beasts are usually picked from the given list. It doesn't say always, and does specify that the DM might pick for the player. Thus, a DM is well within his right to give the player whatever beast he deems fit, no homebrew or breaking of RAW required.

That said, what if you play a tabaxi child? There aren't rules for that, so it'd be up to the DM to decide size.

Touche, sir. That might go in the "Questions to ask your DM" section like you had in the original Breaking BM guide. (of which I was a big fan as well)

[Easy_Lee]

Touche, sir. That might go in the "Questions to ask your DM" section like you had in the original Breaking BM guide. (of which I was a big fan as well)

It might. In this case, I tried to stick as much to the base rules as possible: PHB + UA Revised Ranger only. I'm sure players can come up with many different builds depending on what their DM will allow.

Initiative is the biggest sticking point I've found. I haven't thought up a good solution to that yet. If I do, I may edit the OP.

[mephnick]

Initiative is the biggest sticking point I've found. I haven't thought up a good solution to that yet. If I do, I may edit the OP.

If I were a DM I'd let you share initiative but cut your bonus to a straight +2 or something. I feel a deal could be made if it really made the concept work.

[Easy_Lee]

If I were a DM I'd let you share initiative but cut your bonus to a straight +2 or something. I feel a deal could be made if it really made the concept work.

Right, and like I've said, I've yet to play with a DM who won't let players choose to reduce their initiative. It's one of those gamey things that doesn't make a lot of real life sense; why can't I just wait and go at the same time as or after someone else?

But it's technically not RAW. Further, as shown by the alternative initiative rules that came out recently, some people at WotC seem to actually like finicky initiative. I have no idea why, but there it is.

[djreynolds]

Grab PAM and sentinel. DMs love to attack beasts and familiars, and just eat up reaction attacks and still have a BA with PAM.

[Easy_Lee]

Grab PAM and sentinel. DMs love to attack beasts and familiars, and just eat up reaction attacks and still have a BA with PAM.

Trouble is that rangers don't get the great weapon fighting style, and halflings don't have high strength. You could use a quarterstaff in one hand and take magic initiate at level 8 to pick up shillelagh, though. But then you'd have to wait until level 12 for PAM.

[djreynolds]

Trouble is that rangers don't get the great weapon fighting style, and halflings don't have high strength. You could use a quarterstaff in one hand and take magic initiate at level 8 to pick up shillelagh, though. But then you'd have to wait until level 12 for PAM.

Defensive style is very yawn.

But I like sentinel with beastmaster, DMs cannot help striking out at beasts.

I literally had a reaction attack ever turn with PAM/sentinel. Also 1 level of monk makes quarterstaffs sweet.

Also, very humbly, I though this was just BM in general, I like your build as is.

[Easy_Lee]

Defensive style is very yawn.

But I like sentinel with beastmaster, DMs cannot help striking out at beasts.

I literally had a reaction attack ever turn with PAM/sentinel. Also 1 level of monk makes quarterstaffs sweet.

Also, very humbly, I though this was just BM in general, I like your build as is.

A level of monk would work. Unarmored AC, bonus action attack, and you could one-hand the quarterstaff and take dueling to make it an effective 1D10 weapon. It delays your progression, but that wouldn't be a huge problem, especially if you took it at level 6.

[Chugger]

Easy I like your original breaking bm thread a lot. Just wanna say I was channeling it right now over on someone's Hydra post. I gotta go in and add a link to your other thread! Then I'll come back and read this new one, which I started - looks cool so far. Thanks. (done http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532482-How-can-i-make-a-Hydra-more-fun&p=22264833#post22264833)

[Easy_Lee]

Easy I like your original breaking bm thread a lot. Just wanna say I was channeling it right now over on someone's Hydra post. I gotta go in and add a link to your other thread! Then I'll come back and read this new one, which I started - looks cool so far. Thanks. (done http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532482-How-can-i-make-a-Hydra-more-fun&p=22264833#post22264833)

Thanks, I appreciate it. I may add some optional sourcebook material to the OP. Ghostwise Halflings, for instance, make for pretty good rangers and can communicate with Doggo without breaking stealth.

[Chugger]

Sounds good!

[Chugger]

Almost forgot - like this new revised post. So for it to be "totally AL official" it needs to be published (or somehow anointed)? That would be nice. Here's hoping - and thanks again for the awesome post!

[Easy_Lee]

Almost forgot - like this new revised post. So for it to be "totally AL official" it needs to be published (or somehow anointed)? That would be nice. Here's hoping - and thanks again for the awesome post!

It has to be published in an AL-legal source. Right now, AL allows players to use "PHB+1", meaning the player's handbook and one of the following: Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, the Elemental Evil Player’s Companion, and Volo’s Guide to Monsters. Revised Ranger would have to show up in a new source that then became AL-legal. I've been hearing rumors that it might show up in the next AL-legal sourcebook, but there's no guarantee it will remain in its current form. In fact, they'll probably change it again if they make it AL-legal.

[Chugger]

Thanks. We'll have to see what happens.

[Zalabim]

Might want to specify (Revised) Ranger- I thought that this thread was about the BattleMaster Fighter.

Here's a problem for you- how is Doggo overcoming resistance to non-magical attacks? Because past level 6 or so, you're going to be running into a lot of those, and it'll cut your wolfs damage in half.
Already answered rather specifically, but in general, other than probably not being able to silver Doggo's bite, and not getting a Magic Weapon spell from the party's wizard, the beast personally deals with having non-magical attacks the same way the ranger does: By getting a magic item. This is a programmed response.

And yes, good point about crits. Advantage from pack tactics means the wolf will get these often. However, the trouble with wolf crits is that its weapon die is 2D4. Crits only add 2.5 damage. It's one more reason I'm not fond of the crit rules; crits from the iconic dagger-wielding assassin barely matter.
Crits would add 5 damage, and the assassin, crit or not, is devastating because of sneak attack. The fact that it's a dagger instead of a rapier barely makes a difference to the damage.

Right, and like I've said, I've yet to play with a DM who won't let players choose to reduce their initiative. It's one of those gamey things that doesn't make a lot of real life sense; why can't I just wait and go at the same time as or after someone else?

But it's technically not RAW. Further, as shown by the alternative initiative rules that came out recently, some people at WotC seem to actually like finicky initiative. I have no idea why, but there it is.
If you're trying to go at the same time as someone else and you aren't specifically coordinating like with a countdown, and sometimes even if you are, you're either just guessing (and rolling initiative simulates that) or reacting to whatever they do and in that case, you just take your turn after their turn. Others are also trying to react to whatever that person does, so you'll go before or after those others based on how the initiative rolled out. It's one of those real life things that don't make a lot of gamey sense.

It has to be published in an AL-legal source. Right now, AL allows players to use "PHB+1", meaning the player's handbook and one of the following: Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, the Elemental Evil Player’s Companion, and Volo’s Guide to Monsters. Revised Ranger would have to show up in a new source that then became AL-legal. I've been hearing rumors that it might show up in the next AL-legal sourcebook, but there's no guarantee it will remain in its current form. In fact, they'll probably change it again if they make it AL-legal.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/893255239435927552 Relevant tweet.

[Easy_Lee]

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/893255239435927552 Relevant tweet.

Ah, good to know. I still expect it to change before it's released.

[Zorku]

I agree that strength is the most reasonable, I just mentioned constitution and wisdom because I couldn't guarantee I was right. Like I said, I can't guarantee that it scales either, since Beast Conclave says nothing about ability DCs scaling. But 8+STR+Prof is likely.

And yes, good point about crits. Advantage from pack tactics means the wolf will get these often. However, the trouble with wolf crits is that its weapon die is 2D4. Crits only add 2.5 damage. It's one more reason I'm not fond of the crit rules; crits from the iconic dagger-wielding assassin barely matter.

But altogether, having a high number of attacks is the build's main strength. As far as I know, no other build will get this number of attacks as reliably (as long as you can work out initiative, or your DM allows a combined turn which is ideal both for you and for keeping combat from taking forever). Saves aren't a big problem like they used to be, as the beast gets proficiency with everything (although INT saves will bite you in the ass).

What do you guys think about getting a druid to cast Awaken on Doggo? It wouldn't add much combat-wise, but it could be quite fun for RP.
I was just doing the math a little bit more long form so that people could see it.

Since they add proficiency to a strange place I'd expect stat scaling to not apply, but because they mention that your pet gets ASIs at the same time you do they apparently do something. Just getting better saving throws is probably too small of a benefit. Applying to skill checks seems obvious, because that's so much a part of what ability scores DO. Boosting save DCs and attack bonus/damage is easy enough math, but at the same time I somehow feel like they don't expect the reader to actually know how to do that, or maybe that this is just one step further than people will go if they're not trying to min-max a character...

Everything about how the underlying math of the game works makes me think that the ability scores do all the stuff they normally do, but that proficiency bonus to AC and damage makes me suspicious that something else is happening here.

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Well no, it's double the dice (not just 1 more,) so a wolf crit is adding 5 damage for an average of 14 (4d4 +2 dex + 2 prof = 8-20 possible damage.) This is roughly as good as a crit on any 1d10 weapon. As proficiency climbs and you pump some dex improvements into the companion the crits will have way less overall impact (@level 13 +4 dex +5 prof) but early on it's almost as good as 1 extra attack.

And your assassin crits are basically all about doubling the sneak attack dice. I hear some tables actually make you roll and resolve attacks one at a time, but basically everyone I've ever seen play rolls all their attacks together (except on their very first set of dice,) and then rolls damage all at once, mostly in order to speed up combat. I haven't seen any fuss about which attack they assign the sneak attack dice to. If both attacks crit, well, people pitch enough of a fit with just the one sneak attack's damage output, so doubling that would outright get the class banned at a lot of tables :/

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Awaken feels off archetype to me, but if that's how your character rolls then go for it.


Right, and like I've said, I've yet to play with a DM who won't let players choose to reduce their initiative.
The first 5e table I played at wouldn't allow that. Said that initiative was supposed to be simplified and that tracking who delayed went against that, and that the ready action was there for a reason. They also said that you couldn't ready an action past the bottom of the round, since that's how the rules read (I think errata changed that after awhile?)

He was a pretty cool guy, but I think I asked too many questions about how things worked instead of just asking if I could do a thing. I still kind of have that problem.

[Ravinsild]

Can all this be done basically the exact same but with a Goblin from Volo's?

[Beelzebubba]

If I were the DM, I would deliberately go out of my way to custom design a companion/mount for this character. A Gigantic Rat for the cat to ride.

:smallbiggrin:

I'll work with the other DMs to make this happen.

[Beelzebubba]

The first 5e table I played at wouldn't allow that. Said that initiative was supposed to be simplified and that tracking who delayed went against that, and that the ready action was there for a reason. They also said that you couldn't ready an action past the bottom of the round, since that's how the rules read (I think errata changed that after awhile?)

The first part is legit, the old generic 'Hold' has been replaced by 'Ready'. Next round you act at the same number, it doesn't reset. Sage Advice (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015) talks about it.

I looked it up, you're right there too, errata (https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf) says Ready works until the beginning of your next turn.

[Oramac]

Can all this be done basically the exact same but with a Goblin from Volo's?

It wouldn't be AL legal (assuming the Revised Ranger is published, not in a revised PHB), but I believe it would work otherwise.

[Easy_Lee]

Can all this be done basically the exact same but with a Goblin from Volo's?

Any small race should work. I chose halfling both to keep the build as accessible as possible and for the lore of halflings riding mastiffs.