Pierce Magical Concealment - Why exactly do many say it cancels miss % from Blink?

[Crichton]

I've seen many around D&D discussions make the claim that the Pierce Magical Concealment feat from Complete Arcane can negate the user's 20% miss chance when they're Blinking. Many advise SA focused Rogues to get this feat in conjunction with a Ring of Blinking to provide Sneak Attack on all attacks. While I would dearly love this to be true, as I play a Rogue that is pretty SA heavy, I can't seem to justify it after reading the descriptions of Blink and of Pierce Magical Concealment.

The description of Pierce Magical Concealment looks to me to be quite clear that it allows you to disregard miss chances you would otherwise incur against your target when your target is under the effect of many types of magical concealment. Blink isn't specifically mentioned, but even if it was, as an attacker who is blinking, your own miss chance against your target has nothing to do with concealment, either yours or your target's.

From the PHB description of Blink:

...your own attacks have a
20% miss chance, since you sometimes go
ethereal just as you are about to strike.

The dead thread "Pierce Magical Concealment and Blinking" from a few months ago claims that PMC "calls out 'miss chances', not 'miss chances from concealment'." While that's blatantly not in the RAW from Complete Arcane (see quote below), even so, your own miss chance as a blinking attacker is because you (and your weapon) go ethereal just as you strike, not from concealment.

From the Complete Arcane description of Pierce Magical Concealment:


Your ability to
ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment
doesn’t grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment

The above clearly shows that PMC negates miss chances from magical concealment, not all miss chances (as the linked thread claimed), and certainly not an attacker's miss chance when blinking, as far as I can tell.

I sure hope I'm wrong, because as an SA rogue, a Ring of Blink and PMC seem pretty dang amazing. I just can't seem to make it work, RAW or RAI...

Any counterarguments??

[Asrrin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm

Explicitly states in the spell that it is a concealment effect.

[Crichton]

Explicitly states in the spell that it is a concealment effect.

Yes, in that it conceals the user from others.

I'm not saying that PMC wouldn't let me hit someone else who's Blinking.

I'm saying PMC wouldn't negate my 20% miss chance against my target while *I'm* Blinking.

That miss chance isn't because I'm concealed, it's because me and my weapon might disappear into etherealness in the middle of my attack. I don't see how PMC would have any effect on that.

[Necroticplague]

The relevant part of pierce magic concealment doesn't actually say the miss chance has to be concealment, and the examples back it up.

fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities And in the case of this combo, blink is granting a miss chance to your enemies. So your pierce magic concealment negates that miss chance.
And the examples actually show that it applies to more than just concealment: ghostform is called out explicitly, and that's an incorporeal miss chance, not concealment.

[Crichton]

The relevant part of pierce magic concealment doesn't actually say the miss chance has to be concealment, and the examples back it up.
And in the case of this combo, blink is granting a miss chance to your enemies. So your pierce magic concealment negates that miss chance.
And the examples actually show that it applies to more than just concealment: ghostform is called out explicitly, and that's an incorporeal miss chance, not concealment.

I really want this to be the case, since it would be to my advantage. But I can't see how to reconcile that with the wording of Blink: "you sometimes go
ethereal just as you are about to strike." That would mean that both me and my weapon are ethereal, and incapable of having any affect on my target in the Material Plane. (Unless I use a Ninja's Ghost Strike or some such method of affecting the Material plane while Ethereal). How would PMC have any effect on my being in the Ethereal Plane?

So to make sure I understand how you're putting it, you're saying that my 20% chance to miss my target is a property of my target, and thus can be negated, and not a property of me being Ethereal, despite the Blink description stating otherwise?

[flappeercraft]

This is honestly one of those answers that makes no sense applying real world logic. It should not work by RAI but it does work in RAW due to how the spell and feat are made.

[Zaq]

Sure, you sometimes go ethereal, but since you've trained to deal with that sort of thing (as represented by taking the feat PMC), you're skilled enough that you don't have to worry about that. You know how to time your strikes to avoid swinging when you're ethereal. Other people who haven't undergone the same sort of training (and that can be internal or external training, mind you—the point is that the feat represents something that you can do that other people cannot) might try to strike right when they go ethereal, but you're better than that, and you only strike when you're corporeal.

[Crichton]

This is honestly one of those answers that makes no sense applying real world logic. It should not work by RAI but it does work in RAW due to how the spell and feat are made.

Logic aside, RAW from the Blink description seems to say that you're Ethereal and can't affect the Material plane, thus you miss. That would mean PMC has no effect. The wording is right there: "your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike."

That's explicitly stating that 20% of the time, you're attempting to attack a Material target while you and your possessions are in the Ethereal Plane, which is impossible with normal items.

The only exceptions I can think of are the Ethereal Reaver from CPsi and the Ghost Strike class feature of Ninjas since they affect the Material Plane from the Ethereal Plane. Oh, and the Seeking enhancement on ranged weapons, since it explicitly states that it ignores ANY miss chance.

What specifically in the RAW of the PMC feat can overcome being Ethereal?

[Crichton]

Sure, you sometimes go ethereal, but since you've trained to deal with that sort of thing (as represented by taking the feat PMC), you're skilled enough that you don't have to worry about that. You know how to time your strikes to avoid swinging when you're ethereal. Other people who haven't undergone the same sort of training (and that can be internal or external training, mind you—the point is that the feat represents something that you can do that other people cannot) might try to strike right when they go ethereal, but you're better than that, and you only strike when you're corporeal.

I agree with the intention, but isn't that a RAI answer to a RAW question?

[Zaq]

The RAW is that you ignore the miss chance. I was responding to your " How would PMC have any effect on my being in the Ethereal Plane?" question.

[Crichton]

The RAW is that you ignore the miss chance. I was responding to your " How would PMC have any effect on my being in the Ethereal Plane?" question.

I guess I don't see that that is the RAW. PMC states that it ignores the miss chance from spells or spell like abilities. Even stretching that to apply backwards (Me as blinker, not me against blinker), the miss chance from Blink of me as the attacker is explicitly stated as not being from the spell, but as me being Ethereal. I'm Ethereal, same as if I Plane Shifted. PMC doesn't negate cross-plane limitations, in any of its wording.

The way I'm reading it, RAW is that if I'm Blinking, it's the same as if I Plane Shifted to the Ethereal Plane. While there I can't affect the Material Plane

Believe me, I want the RAW to favor PMC. It would make my Rogue's SA way more powerful. But that doesn't seem to be what it says. It says PMC would allow my enemy to ignore their miss chance when hitting me while I'm Blinking, but not allow me to strike them while I'm Ethereal

[Necroticplague]

I really want this to be the case, since it would be to my advantage. But I can't see how to reconcile that with the wording of Blink: "you sometimes go
ethereal just as you are about to strike." That would mean that both me and my weapon are ethereal, and incapable of having any affect on my target in the Material Plane. (Unless I use a Ninja's Ghost Strike or some such method of affecting the Material plane while Ethereal). How would PMC have any effect on my being in the Ethereal Plane?
Because the miss chance doesn't come from being Ethereal. If you were Ethereal, you'd be unable to make the attack in the first place (since you can't attack someone on another plane). The spell provides the miss chance of 20%. PMC says that you ignore miss chances from spells.


So to make sure I understand how you're putting it, you're saying that my 20% chance to miss my target is a property of my target, and thus can be negated, and not a property of me being Ethereal, despite the Blink description stating otherwise?
It's not a property of the target. It's a property of the spell. Being Ethereal doesn't provide a 20% miss chance. Blink provides a 20% miss chance.

[Crichton]

Because the miss chance doesn't come from being Ethereal. If you were Ethereal, you'd be unable to make the attack in the first place (since you can't attack someone on another plane). The spell provides the miss chance of 20%. PMC says that you ignore miss chances from spells.


It's not a property of the target. It's a property of the spell. Being Ethereal doesn't provide a 20% miss chance. Blink provides a 20% miss chance.

I'm not sure you've convinced me totally ("sometimes you go ethereal just as you strike" sounds like it comes from being Ethereal to me), but you make a plausible argument. Thank you for breaking it down for me like that.