Templates giving actual levels?

[Valwyn]

Okay, so I'm sure it's come up before, but what would happen if templates, like Vampire, actually gave you hit dice like they were class levels? Obviously, you'd have to determine BAB, saves, skills and level progression, but would it be too powerful?

[DarthPeleus]

Depends on your perspective.

Would, say, an adventurer who became a vampire be way stronger relative to his adventuring buddies? Of course.

But that same adventurer vampire would be far weaker than class-level only characters of the same HD.

In short the extra hid dice obviously make you stronger than not having them, but you would rather have class levels.

[Remuko]

Lycanthrope does this. You gain animal HD (Levels) when you get the template.

[Thurbane]

RHD are definitely better than empty LA, but generally worse than class levels.

RHD give BAB, skill, saves and HP. LA give nothing.

RHD will usually be inferior to class levels. Arguably, some of the better RHD (Outsider, Dragon) are better than low tier classes. They are inferior to higher tier classes.

[Malimar]

Replacing LA with RHD is a possibility that helps mitigate some of the problems of LA, but does not completely solve the problems.

The problems it solves are mentioned in the OP: high-LA creatures have comparatively bad HP, HD, saves, and skills.

The problems it doesn't solve is that LA and RHD don't give class features, which are generally superior to the LAs assigned by the game.

You could go the solution of using the LA assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!)'s conclusions (or do what I do: divide all LAs in half, minimum +1 if it already has +1; I'm waiting on the thread to conclude the first MM to see how this houserule stacks up to Inevitability's analyses, but it seems to be working okay for the most part), which are generally better balanced against class levels. It probably wouldn't even hurt to use those numbers and replace LA with RHD.

[Esprit15]

I think in the next game that I run, I'll treat LA as RHD instead (based on creature type) and see how that works. Hopefully it negates the crappy saves, skills, and BAB, without giving any nice things besides the abilities of the creature or template.

[zergling.exe]

Replacing LA with RHD is a possibility that helps mitigate some of the problems of LA, but does not completely solve the problems.

The problems it solves are mentioned in the OP: high-LA creatures have comparatively bad HP, HD, saves, and skills.

The problems it doesn't solve is that LA and RHD don't give class features, which are generally superior to the LAs assigned by the game.

You could go the solution of using the LA assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!)'s conclusions (or do what I do: divide all LAs in half, minimum +1 if it already has +1; I'm waiting on the thread to conclude the first MM to see how this houserule stacks up to Inevitability's analyses, but it seems to be working okay for the most part), which are generally better balanced against class levels. It probably wouldn't even hurt to use those numbers and replace LA with RHD.

In the context of this thread, those RHD would have class features. Whatever abilities the template gives are effectively the class features for the template. You would just have to adjust the RHD/LA to match what those class features are worth.

[Hackulator]

The only template that really gives HD that I know of is multiheaded. I consider Tauric/Lycanthrope/Symbiotic in a different category as those are adding two creatures together as opposed to just adding HD to a creature.

[Wristlet Eater]

Beast of Xvim also gives you a HD.

[Inevitability]

The Chimeric template from MM2 increases HD to 9 if the base creature had less.

[Hiro Quester]

FYI, if you wanted to do this with Vampire, the Wizards have already made a level savage progression for the vampire template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). You'd just have to think about BAB, saves, etc.

It's worth pointing out that for a vampire, for example, while you don't get HD, your current HD become d12s. For some characters, that instantly makes them significantly tougher (like a wizard's d4HD).

You could just spread the growth in HD size over the savage progression levels, too, changing to d6, d8, d10 then d12 at appropriate levels (depending on what the character's original HD were).

[DrMotives]

Warbeast from MM2 adds 1 HD of either animal or vermin, whichever the base creature has.

[Valwyn]

FYI, if you wanted to do this with Vampire, the Wizards have already made a level savage progression for the vampire template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). You'd just have to think about BAB, saves, etc.

It's worth pointing out that for a vampire, for example, while you don't get HD, your current HD become d12s. For some characters, that instantly makes them significantly tougher (like a wizard's d4HD).

You could just spread the growth in HD size over the savage progression levels, too, changing to d6, d8, d10 then d12 at appropriate levels (depending on what the character's original HD were).

Yes, savage progression is sort of what I was thinking, except the character would actually gain skills, BAB, saves, and HP as they progres. As it is right now, you gain a bonus (or penalty) to your ability scores and "template features", such as Su powers when you gain a template, but a level 1 vampire isn't nearly as dangerous as a level 9 character.

In short, would making templates the same as leveling up (albeit in a very specific way) be a bad idea? I'm thinking of doing this with all templates, not just vampires/undead.

[DrKerosene]

Warbeast from MM2 adds 1 HD of either animal or vermin, whichever the base creature has.
How about the Titanic template.

The third level of Emancipated Spawn might work in the hands of a DM.