Vampire Soul

[Hiro Quester]

Our party elf wizard is considering letting a vampire kill him, so he can become one. We're at or approaching Epic level, so he says the LA won't affect him much. He's morally towards "the deeper end of the alignment pool". And he is supremely motivated by gaining knowledge, so living forever seems a good idea.

As the good Divine member of the party, my character (druid) thinks his friend becoming an undead abomination is a bad (!) idea. He's trying to convince him not to do that.

In a discussion recently, someone mentioned that when one becomes a vampire, one loses their soul, and the vampire imprisons your soul inside your body.

That is, you don't exactly become a vampire. Rather a vampire gets to take over your body, skills, knowledge, etc. and pretends to be you; rather like what happened to Durkon in OOTS comic (as in this example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)).

If that's true (rules wise), then my character would probably use that as part of his argument to stay a pure elf and not let an evil abomination control him.

Is there a rule that specifies this? I can't find any mention of souls in the Monster Manual entry for vampires.)

Further question: is there a cure for vampirism? Can one cast, say, "true resurrection" on a vampire, to cure him of being undead (and get my friend's soul back in control of his body).

Edit: Ah. I see the answer to my last question. True Ressurection says:

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

So my Vampire friend would have to be totally destroyed, then True Resurrection could resurrect him as he was before becoming Undead. Right?

[mastermisha1]

Not sure about all vampires, but the Shadow Sun Ninja capstone ability deals with what happens when they abuse the ability. In thier case, thier souls go to Dispater (I believe) while they themselves become vampires.

[Zanos]

That's a thing Rich wrote for the comic, it doesn't happen in the game as far as I can tell. As an aside, I think that's specific to Dwarven vampires, because Malack seemed to be pretty adamant that his mortal and vampire selves were a continuous existence, and thought that Durkon would still be Durkon once turned.

Being turned into a vampire does change your alignment to Evil and enslave you to your creator though, so it's still a pretty bad idea. You don't need to become a vampire to be immortal though. Lich of Necropolitian would be fine. At near epic levels I'm pretty sure just a spell can do it also.

[Crake]

It'll come down to your DM, there's no rules for this sort of thing, but one of my DMs claimed than when you become a vampire, a demon possesses your body and it's no longer you inside, kinda like what's happening in giantitp. That was long before what happened to durokan, so I believe it's got some kind of mythological basis behind it, but again, nothing in the standard dnd lore on vampires would suggest that to be the case.

If one of your friends is making that claim, and it's a player at your table, the best thing to do would be to check with the DM to confirm or deny this claim.

[Anymage]

Buffy had the "it's not really you, it's just a demon aping who you were" thing a while ago. (Although buffyverse vamps, like how OotSverse vamps seem likely to turn out, do seem to show continuity with their old selves.)

Unfortunately from this angle, though, even if vampires turn out to be an unattractive option, something like a lich is still an unliving abomination that still continues to be "you".

Elves naturally live for a nice long time, and RAW the reincarnation spell resets your age to a nice new young adult body. Extrapolating slightly, Reincarnation is a 4th level druid spell whose primary function is bringing you back from the dead. Limited Wish can emulate up to a fifth level druid spell, so resetting your existing body to young adult, without having to die beforehand, is a reasonable if not explicitly spelled out option.

But while the char op answer is pretty clear (the vampire's +8 LA will smart even at epic levels, and even the lich's +4 LA is probably worse than raw caster levels), this sounds like an in character option. And while the vampire's drawbacks may tip the scales, the general question of if the advantages of undeath are worth becoming an undead is an entirely in-character choice for your friend.

[Dancingdeath]

Lich is THE go to for wizards trying to live longer and gain power. Also don't know how he'd deal with not being able to be in sunlight and being destroyed by it. Limits travel to a degree and severely hampers certain interactions. Can't meet people outside or shop in the daytime. I realize there are ways around those issues but all a lich has to so is cast an illusion on themselves and they're good to go. Also the no longer you argument seems to be the prevailing opinion.

[Inevitability]

Complete Divine, page 126:


Some undead such as vampires and wights create spawn out of a character they kill, trapping the soul of the deceased in a body animated by negative energy and controlled by a malign intelligence. Sometimes the undead creature can access the memories of the deceased (vampires, spectres, ghouls, and ghasts can), and sometimes they can’t (as with shadows, wights, and wraiths).

So what happens in OotS is basically RAW.

[Ellrin]

I know one of the books has a flavor quotation snippet from a vampire talking about his soul, which he specifies as no longer having--which suggests to me both continuity of mind and self, and the actual soul having left the body (and not simply being trapped inside). I remember using this to justify the existence of intelligent undead without souls when I briefly played a necromancer years ago.

AFB, so I'm not positive which book it was in--probably Libris Mortis, though possibly Heroes of Horror or another "evil"-themed book.

[Crake]

Complete Divine, page 126:



So what happens in OotS is basically RAW.

At the same time, there are things like the emancipated spawn, which seem to suggest the opposite of this, allowing a freed spawn to regain it's former memories and personality. It was in fact designed for player characters, which seems to imply that it's the same person, not some other entity. Perhaps it could be argued while the spawn is under it's master's control, that malign intelligence is it's master? After all, the master has total control over the spawn.

[Inevitability]

At the same time, there are things like the emancipated spawn, which seem to suggest the opposite of this, allowing a freed spawn to regain it's former memories and personality. It was in fact designed for player characters, which seems to imply that it's the same person, not some other entity. Perhaps it could be argued while the spawn is under it's master's control, that malign intelligence is it's master? After all, the master has total control over the spawn.

One could also argue that Emancipated Spawn represents a character whose imprisoned soul manages to break free and overcome the malign intelligence that controls its body.

[Hiro Quester]

Complete Divine, page 126:

So what happens in OotS is basically RAW.

This is the argument I was looking for (OOC) to try to convince my wayward elf friend (IC). Thanks!

[Zanos]

I will point out that none of the later books particularly Libris Mortis describes any of the example vampires as being anything other than twisted versions of themselves, and the ones that were Evil beforehand were pretty much exactly the same after they became vampires. There's even a Drow in LM that does it on purpose.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As the good Divine member of the party, my character (druid) thinks
Stop right there.

Before you go any farther, discuss this out-of-game with the wizard's player. Figure out how you want to deal with the tension as real people before you let it play out in-character. Make sure you're both on board with a "you've destroyed your soul, I will find a way to undo this and redeem you" arc before you try to unilaterally impose it on them. Always discuss plans for inter-party conflict with all affected parties first; it'll save everyone a lot of headache and potential hurt feelings that way.

[Hiro Quester]

Stop right there.

Before you go any farther, discuss this out-of-game with the wizard's player. Figure out how you want to deal with the tension as real people before you let it play out in-character. Make sure you're both on board with a "you've destroyed your soul, I will find a way to undo this and redeem you" arc before you try to unilaterally impose it on them. Always discuss plans for inter-party conflict with all affected parties first; it'll save everyone a lot of headache and potential hurt feelings that way.

Of course. This is always good advice.

And I'm trying to be preventative, as a friend IC. Not sure my character would do anything beyond talking about it.

As one of the few good characters in a neutral group (whose members court temptations toward evil acts they try to rationalize as for the greater good), we have such discussions sometimes.

We basically have a couple of Belkar types in our group (blaster sorcerer, necromancer Cleric of Boccob who should know better than to encourage this vampire idea). This player is our Varsuvius (ethics is secondary to complete arcane mastery).

My job is in part to try to "keep them pointed at the bad guys" as Roy says. And to caution them about their life choices.

So we have these discussions regularly. (With OOC discussions and explanations about why we think our characters would respond in such and so way.)

OOC we also enjoy talking politics, which many of us have fundamental disagreements about. We have had lots of practice at being friends while disagreeing (in and out of character).

[Wristlet Eater]

Complete Divine, page 126:

So what happens in OotS is basically RAW.

I never liked this as I feel like it's a lot more interesting in many ways if it is the original person. So I choose to go with the interpretation that the 'malign intelligence' means the master controlling the spawn, and 'sometimes' in the next sentence means even some shadows, wights and wraiths can remember their lives.

[Crake]

One could also argue that Emancipated Spawn represents a character whose imprisoned soul manages to break free and overcome the malign intelligence that controls its body.

That could definitely be argued, though the prestige class never mentions anything like that.

[Fouredged Sword]

Emancipated Spawn could also just be an evil undead spirit who wants freedom and has all the memories of the original, but is metaphysically a different being.

Really, you get down to a meta level. Becoming a vampire changes your mind. Your alignment alters. The vampire you has all your memories, even your soul, but makes decisions differently than the original, sometimes by a lot, sometimes by a little.

At what point you are metaphysically a different person, well that is up to you. Some would say you never change. Others would say you are a different person as soon as you decide you are.

[Hiro Quester]

At what point you are metaphysically a different person, well that is up to you. Some would say you never change. Others would say you are a different person as soon as you decide you are.

Good point. Other times you think you are the same person, but might not be.

BTW, I'm a philosophy professor IRL and often have this very discussion with my students, about what could change about you and you would be "a different person". Usually it's about teleportation (as Sheldon points out here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQZzSrAIp-E); youtube link, 1 min).

But I'm so going to add being bitten by a vampire to that discussion next time.

[Thurbane]

Complete Divine, page 126:


Some undead such as vampires and wights create spawn out of a character they kill, trapping the soul of the deceased in a body animated by negative energy and controlled by a malign intelligence. Sometimes the undead creature can access the memories of the deceased (vampires, spectres, ghouls, and ghasts can), and sometimes they can’t (as with shadows, wights, and wraiths).

So what happens in OotS is basically RAW.

Good find - when I saw this thread initially, I was digging through Libris Mortis, but it didn't have much on this topic.

[Zanos]

Good point. Other times you think you are the same person, but might not be.

BTW, I'm a philosophy professor IRL and often have this very discussion with my students, about what could change about you and you would be "a different person". Usually it's about teleportation (as Sheldon points out here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQZzSrAIp-E); youtube link, 1 min).

But I'm so going to add being bitten by a vampire to that discussion next time.
You should check out SOMA if you're into identity/existential horror.

But really any traumatic experience can change someone, I'm not sure how vampire is all that different if you cut out mystical demon possession.

[Fouredged Sword]

You should check out SOMA if you're into identity/existential horror.

But really any traumatic experience can change someone, I'm not sure how vampire is all that different if you cut out mystical demon possession.

Ah soma, where you escape to a paradise AND get doomed to watery hell at the same time!

[Wristlet Eater]

Really, you get down to a meta level. Becoming a vampire changes your mind. Your alignment alters. The vampire you has all your memories, even your soul, but makes decisions differently than the original, sometimes by a lot, sometimes by a little.

At what point you are metaphysically a different person, well that is up to you. Some would say you never change. Others would say you are a different person as soon as you decide you are.

True, but other things can also do that to you, like various life-changing events. The difference is whether it was the original self that was changed, or whether a personality with all your memories but from the beginning a fundamentally different entity takes over, especially as in the second case it would mean that the original soul still exists somewhere.

In the first scenario I would argue that the undead's actions would be a lot closer to those it would have taken in its living existence.

Furthermore it could be argued that the alignment change is the result of some effect related to undeadification that mentally pushes the soul towards evil acts, but the soul theoretically has the option to try and resist, as seen in the rare non-evil vampire, wight, ghoul, etc.

[Hiro Quester]

Ah soma, where you escape to a paradise AND get doomed to watery hell at the same time!

Please no spoilers!

Thanks, though. People keep mentioning it in this context, I should check it out.

[DrKerosene]

I was hoping the spell Vile Death was relevant, but it just makes me wonder how many intelligences can be crammed into one body.

There is apparently a chance for a Mindflayer ceromorphosis to result in the original individual conciousness surviving and continuing in a Mindflayer body. I don't see why your DM couldn't allow a similar case for your Wizard. Being a Lich or Revenant might be more appropriate for the theme I'm going for. Actually, I think (Savage Progression?) Ghost Template might be good if your Wizard can come up with an unsolvable anchor/obsession to keep Rejuvenating.

Edit: If they do go Vampire, they can try to pursue the Vampire Lord template, which might be fun.

[Fouredged Sword]

Please no spoilers!

Thanks, though. People keep mentioning it in this context, I should check it out.

Be warned. It isnt a horror game in the boo eak variety. Rather, it is the oh god what did i just do variety. Not for the overly empathetic.

[Sagetim]

Our party elf wizard is considering letting a vampire kill him, so he can become one. We're at or approaching Epic level, so he says the LA won't affect him much. He's morally towards "the deeper end of the alignment pool". And he is supremely motivated by gaining knowledge, so living forever seems a good idea.

As the good Divine member of the party, my character (druid) thinks his friend becoming an undead abomination is a bad (!) idea. He's trying to convince him not to do that.

In a discussion recently, someone mentioned that when one becomes a vampire, one loses their soul, and the vampire imprisons your soul inside your body.

That is, you don't exactly become a vampire. Rather a vampire gets to take over your body, skills, knowledge, etc. and pretends to be you; rather like what happened to Durkon in OOTS comic (as in this example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)).

If that's true (rules wise), then my character would probably use that as part of his argument to stay a pure elf and not let an evil abomination control him.

Is there a rule that specifies this? I can't find any mention of souls in the Monster Manual entry for vampires.)

Further question: is there a cure for vampirism? Can one cast, say, "true resurrection" on a vampire, to cure him of being undead (and get my friend's soul back in control of his body).

Edit: Ah. I see the answer to my last question. True Ressurection says:


So my Vampire friend would have to be totally destroyed, then True Resurrection could resurrect him as he was before becoming Undead. Right?

Well, I'll sidetrack back to this, but there are better ways to be immortal in 3.5. The soul thing is not grounded in the rules of 3.5 dnd, like, at all. The closest it comes to that is that the vampire that turns you into a vampire can/does have control over you (they have limits on how many hit dice of spawn they can control, but a level 10 vampire would probably be willing to drop all it's spawn to have a level 20 wizard at it's beck and call). As I recall, vampires currently under the thrall of their creator cannot act directly against it (so, they could ask the party to go gank the guy, but would be unable to help gank the vampire. Furthermore, they may be required to fight to defend their master to the best of their ability).

There's also the very real downside of exploding in sunlight, and with higher level spells in play (you did mention that you're all epic or thereabouts), there are a number of spells in 3.5 that replicate sunlight and explode vampires. There's also the whole feeding thing, which might be something you can get around with a ring of sustenance (or adding the effect of a ring of sustenance to your other, more useful high level rings).

Let's look at the benefits though: summoning some Very low cr animals to your aid (meh), inflicting negative levels on a natural attack (nice, but some effort has to go into this to make it useful to a wizard), a grappling focused blood draining attack (which is nice for someone with a full bab, and most wizards on this forum seem loathe to use Tenser's Transformation), Fast Healing 5 (which is nice for between combat, but neigh on useless In combat), Gaseous Form (which can still be ganked), The ability to create spawn (free minions, but without legwork you're going to likely have them trying to get you killed at some point), some limited form shape shifting, a little DR (at your level, very little dr and probably easily overcome), and a spammable short range domination*, +2 or more to each of your remaining stats.

* One the bright side, the dc scales with hit die, but on the downside (for the wizard) it's charisma based, not int. And while the domination can be spammed as a standard action, you have high level spells at your disposal that are probably going to be taking your action economy up. Now, that said, it's a nice thing to have in your back pocket for dealing 'peacefully' with situations.

The trade offs, however, are pretty damning. The ECL is not inconsequential, it's +8. Even with ecl buy off, you're not going to be able to start until you're deep into epic levels. Now, if the game is capped at 20 then stacking templates on after you hit 20 isn't as bad an idea. But if you're a full caster, 8 ecl is damning. It's 8 dead levels for your casting, and at epic levels that's a significant amount of epic feats, skill ranks, and ability to solve problems (for one, this would lock them out of epic spells and higher than 9th level slots for a long time).

This is where other options are going to start showing their appeal. The Necropolitan has a very low bar for entry, going through the ritual, losing a level (for dying) and then getting up and walking around with basically just the undead type instead of humanoid. With enough Gentle Repose, you could probably pass for normal (well, other than being corpse cold). As a high level wizard, it wouldn't be out of your means to have a non item slot widget for gentle reposing your body at all times, being a magic item, it would only get supressed if hit by a dispel (and only then for 1d4 rounds). Now, the Necropolitan doesn't have a lot of benefits attached, but it also has a 0 ecl. The only cost is the level you lose for dying and coming back from Not True Resurrection.

Lich is another undead option, which would provide more direct benefits to a wizard. It's 4 ECL, which means that it's actually feasible to start buying some of that off if ECL buyoff is in play. It has Paralysis touch with negative energy damage, some dr, some natural armor, a +2 to int, wis, and cha, and the wholy phylactery thing for not dying. It also has no specific weakness that rises in the east, sets in the west, and occupies the sky for somewhere between 6 to 18 hours a day. Furthermore, there are wizard spells that can increase the durability of the phylactery (such as by raising it's hardness, etc). It may not be giving you the +6 strength that vampire does, but lich and vampire give the same int bonus. You know, the one relevant to wizards.

Elan are an oft overlooked 3.5 option. Being part of psionics, it may not be allowed at all, but it's technically possible to make the transition from squishy mortal to Elan. I don't think they ever bothered to actually write rules for it for 3.5, but the fluff (which can be adhered to or ignored as the DM sees fit) has it that becoming an Elan is a rebirth for the being who undergoes the process. Energizing their form with psychic power and transforming into the race as presented in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. a -2 charisma is not a bad trade off for having no age limit. You wind up being the Abberation subtype instead of humanoid (which druids may not be very cool with, but probably more cool with it than Undead. At least Abberations are alive, huh?). It has no ECL, you can't be turned, you don't have your alignment auto adjusted to evil, and you're not a (probably) rotting corpse walking around. The trade off is that you are going to need a memory bottle (or whatever they are called) so that you can cheat the system and restore your memories from pre-Elanification to retain your class levels and give the finger to the more traditional Elan who probably assumed you were going to start some kind of new life under their tutelage and guidance (and possibly take all your now level inappropriate gear away for their own usage).

Anyway, the Elan option requires the DM to be willing to allow Psionics, or at least psionic races. But I'd point to that as the preferrable option to going undead. Now, if he's planning to go undead and make dropping negative energy with impunity a whole thing then obviously he needs either Tomb Tainted Soul, or to be undead to make that work. But in that case Necropolitan is going to get you more mileage for less cost (costing basically just xp, rather than effective levels, a feat, etc).


Something of a side track but worth noting: I'm not aware of anywhere in the rules that states that undead look like rotting monstrosities immediately. If the body is fresh, especially if it's been preserved with gentle repose or similar effects, it seems reasonable to assume that it could pass for living just fine, especially if care and effort is put into preservation post reanimation. So if part of it is 'I don't want to look like a monster, vampires look like people' then pointing this out and clarifying if the DM is going to house rule in some way or other is worth discussing.

TL;DR- there are mechanically better templates to choose from, Necropolitan for 0 ecl, Lich for only a +4 ecl and some solid benefits, or not-undead option of trying to go Elan and preserving your memories in a memory bottle to reverse potential level loss.

[Hiro Quester]

snip

Thanks for that very thorough response.

You echoed one of my main concerns, and one that should be his.

Mine is that we meet undead pretty regularly, and I've set off Sunburst spells to deal with them, knowing the can't hurt party members significantly. And the whole natural sunlight thing.

His concern should be the lost caster levels, and no access to epic spells (unless he get the feat first). That might be a stronger concern to him than the state of his soul.

That and being the thrall of another vampire. Honestly, many of the rest of the party would be highly motivated to take the other vampire out to make sure he at least has free will.

But the main point is that the benefits don't seem to outweigh the costs. And as you say, there are other options (though him doing something as evil as becoming a lich also has ramifications for our party and its members).

[Sagetim]

Thanks for that very thorough response.

You echoed one of my main concerns, and one that should be his.

Mine is that we meet undead pretty regularly, and I've set off Sunburst spells to deal with them, knowing the can't hurt party members significantly. And the whole natural sunlight thing.

His concern should be the lost caster levels, and no access to epic spells (unless he get the feat first). That might be a stronger concern to him than the state of his soul.

That and being the thrall of another vampire. Honestly, many of the rest of the party would be highly motivated to take the other vampire out to make sure he at least has free will.

But the main point is that the benefits don't seem to outweigh the costs. And as you say, there are other options (though him doing something as evil as becoming a lich also has ramifications for our party and its members).


I mean, to be fair to Necropolitans and Liches, they're both very self contained. Neither of them is forced to victimize people to continue to exist (whereas Vampires have that whole blood thing going on). It's generally much more fun to do bad or evil things because you Want to and Choose to, not because they are Necessary. Also, I don't know evil becoming a lich would really be on the grand scheme of things. Sure, you're giving the finger to the natural cycle instead of dying and letting your soul get victimized by the gods of your setting, but you're not say, destroying someone's soul to do it, you don't need to kill other people to pull it off, if you get your supplies in order you can just go hang out in a secluded demiplane and craft the phylactery and be pretty much done. The Necropolitan similarly does not involve victimizing anyone (to the point that Necropolitans are written up as having their own intelligent undead filled city that functions just fine, thank you).

Compare with Vampire, and you have a template that gives you the need to feed and minions from feeding, putting it in a similar category in my mind as other undead that are forced to victimize others, like wraiths, spectres, wights, and so on.

Oh, you have a party with a cleric who can cast create undead/create greater undead. I'm kind of surprised he hasn't been considering doing the ultimate in neigh on unkillable at high level things and gone for making a deal with the cleric to be raised as a ghost. As long as his gear is left on his dead body, he can continue adventuring with the rest of you, counting as one of the cleric's animated undead. Furthermore, ghosts aren't particularly weak to sunlight itself, and even if something does kill him, he will auto succeed the level check to come back (it's like, dc 16, and you are rolling 1d20+ your level, he can't fail, it's not an attack roll or saving throw). Now, he won't get great benefits in the form of stat bonuses (I think ghosts get a +4 to charisma or something, but I do recall they get charisma bonus to deflection modifier), but the whole 'neener neener you can't end me' is a pretty solid aspect. That, and being commanded by the cleric might well get him around any kind of 'you are stuck in one place' thing that ghosts might normally be subjected to. The ECL +5 is going to hurt through.

Related: are you guys using the ECL buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana? IF so, then an ecl 3 or less is negligible enough to be bought off at your level, while 4 still needs a little more time to reach 0, and 5 needs yet more time (well, levels).

[zergling.exe]

Also, I don't know evil becoming a lich would really be on the grand scheme of things.

In 3.5, unspeakably. Literally the word used by the MM in the Lich Characters section.

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.
That sounds like it would be pretty evil right there.

[Fouredged Sword]

In 3.5, unspeakably. Literally the word used by the MM in the Lich Characters section.

That sounds like it would be pretty evil right there.

It is so evil that none of the books will speak to what it is.

[ShurikVch]

Complete Divine, page 126:

So what happens in OotS is basically RAW.Note: rule in Savage Species allow - on a successful Will save - to keep the original alignment after the transformation
So, if control of the "malign intelligence" would result in Lawful Good creature, I wanna see it!
(Well, unless it will be one of those "For not even a stone wouldn't cast any shadows / He's ready to leave no stones to stand.")



Buffy had the "it's not really you, it's just a demon aping who you were" thing a while ago. (Although buffyverse vamps, like how OotSverse vamps seem likely to turn out, do seem to show continuity with their old selves.)Hey, Buffy the Vampire Slayer called, she want her vampires back.



In 3.5, unspeakably. Literally the word used by the MM in the Lich Characters section.

That sounds like it would be pretty evil right there.
It is so evil that none of the books will speak to what it is.Please let me quote Objulen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?97687-Objulen) there:
That would be hilarious just to lampshade how arbitrarily terms like "unspeakably evil" gets kicked out for monsters without any real justification or background. While being undead would be a highly alien state, unless there's something tangible to demonstrate why a state of being is evil, I generally don't feel obligated to limit my options. Considering the non-evil undead that have been created for D&D over the years, especially the non-evil liches, such as baelnorn, it seems that the generic monster machine needn't always get in the way of having an interesting story.

As for vampires, spawn have every reason for ptsd and other disorders due to their term of slavery, but since nothing forces you to feed on sapient living creature as opposed to a cow, there's nothing making vampires evil other than the assumption that this how we want vampires to be portrayed.Or may I point at Village of Eternal Night in Neverwinter Nights, where Belial openly admitted there was, actually, no need to slaughtering the children, demon just messed with Jhareg brothers - For the Evulz (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz)
Once again, Savage Species:
Player characters who become liches change their type to undead. They do not have to change their alignment to evil; however, they do not gain the fear aura supernatural ability unless they do.Also, Good Liches in Monsters of Faerûn and Libris Mortis
Jander Sunstar (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar), vampire, Chaotic Neutral
Nijel Turnbottom, "Lichie Lich" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a), Neutral
Oh, and
Not all dread necromancers are evil, but however, may turn into Liches at 20th level...

[hamishspence]

Nijel Turnbottom, "Lichie Lich" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a), Neutral

That's an April Fools Day character, so shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Jander was CN in Faerun, but became CE in Ravenloft, I read.

[Kantaki]

That's an April Fools Day character, so shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Jander was CN in Faerun, but became CE in Ravenloft, I read.

Doesn't everyone turn evil in Ravenloft?:smalltongue:

[Sagetim]

I was wondering if anyone would mention Lichie Lich, but that aside, According to RAW Dread Necromancers don't actually turn into liches at 20, so they don't get the boosted ability scores and so on, they just kind of get a middle finger from the errata that they don't get the template applied, and that their class abilities represent what they would have gotten from being a lich anyway or something.

[ShurikVch]

That's an April Fools Day character, so shouldn't be taken too seriously.I'm completely aware about it; but, for example, Fabulous Cats! (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) is April Fools too, but it gave us 3.5 RAW for the Cheshire Cat


Jander was CN in Faerun, but became CE in Ravenloft, I read.If the article (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar) in Mistipedia is correct, he was still CN in 2e, but printed as CE in d20



Doesn't everyone turn evil in Ravenloft?:smalltongue:No, not everyone - Dante Lysin (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Dante_Lysin) is still CN



I was wondering if anyone would mention Lichie Lich, but that aside, According to RAW Dread Necromancers don't actually turn into liches at 20That argument is rather old, but I'll give it one more try:
Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich.Isn't it not enough for you?
Are you have some different definition of "Lich", which is not the template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) with this name?
OK, how would you explain the phrase "and becomes a lich"?


they just kind of get a middle finger from the errataWhat? :smallconfused:
There is an ERRATA for the Heroes of Horror?
Show me!!!

[Hiro Quester]

Another hazard of becoming a vampire I just realized: No dungeon crawls or burglary.

You are "utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so." So you must be welcomed into a private space. You can only enter public places without an explicit invitation.

This probably means you can’t Dimension door into a room that you have not been invited into (e.g. to escape from danger in the nearby room).

And it almost definitely means that you can't explore a dungeon unless explicitly invited in by its owner. So no exploring a dungeon for loot or adventure.

You also become a wimp. You can’t enter an area with garlic in it, or come within 5ft of a mirror. So a commoner chef with a frying pan of garlic, or a hairdresser with a mirror can totally freak you out.

And any 1st level cleric can hold you at bay with a holy symbol.

You also can’t cross running water. To cross a stream or use a ship you have to be carried in your coffin.

So while vampire has a few strengths and advantages, these weaknesses seem kinds limiting to an adventurer type. Especially the no dungeon crawls without invitation thing.

[ShurikVch]

So while vampire has a few strengths and advantages, these weaknesses seem kinds limiting to an adventurer type. Especially the no dungeon crawls without invitation thing.In general - I'm agree with you: Vampires have way too many limitations, so their huge LA is totally uncalled

But in specific examples - I'm disagree with you

Thus:

Another hazard of becoming a vampire I just realized: No dungeon crawls or burglary.

You are "utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so." So you must be welcomed into a private space. You can only enter public places without an explicit invitation.

This probably means you can’t Dimension door into a room that you have not been invited into (e.g. to escape from danger in the nearby room).

And it almost definitely means that you can't explore a dungeon unless explicitly invited in by its owner. So no exploring a dungeon for loot or adventure.Since when dungeon count as "home or building"?

You also become a wimp. You can’t enter an area with garlic in it, or come within 5ft of a mirror. So a commoner chef with a frying pan of garlic, or a hairdresser with a mirror can totally freak you out.

And any 1st level cleric can hold you at bay with a holy symbol.How often in adventures you encounter with a garlic?
I mean - outside the actual kitchens/eateries/etc?

And "recoiling" thing doesn't prevent a vampire from using ranged attacks
Or, you know, Special Attacks
How long it will take for Vampire to tell: "Drop it. And give me your neck."?


You also can’t cross running water. To cross a stream or use a ship you have to be carried in your coffin.It's incorrect: Vampire need either coffin or ship - not both

[Hiro Quester]

Since when dungeon count as "home or building"?

It's a structure, with rooms, often owned by someone (not public space).

In our current campaign, we have had to sneak around or invade several dungeons owned by folks who explicitly did not want us there, and were sending minions to stop us. that's not an uncommon plot device.


And "recoiling" thing doesn't prevent a vampire from using ranged attacks
Or, you know, Special Attacks

Yes, there is that. But still, its a weird limitation. Might make for fun RP if the DM adds commoner hairdressers or kitchens to an encounter. :smallwink:

And it means you never can know if your own hair is done right, since you can't see yourself in a mirror, and mirrors make you recoil, too. That also enables the party to mess with the vampire's appearance (e.g. prestidigitation, gusts of wind, write "dispel me" on his forehead, etc.)



It's incorrect: Vampire need either coffin or ship - not both

True. I wonder if they can fly over a body of water. Or teleport over one?

[ShurikVch]

It's a structure, with rooms, often owned by someone (not public space).The word "building" suggesting it was build - thus all "natural" dungeons aren't buildings by definition

And owned... Or just squatted (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting)?
What proofs of ownership those so-called "owners" have?
Even if they built it - without the official permission, dungeon is illegal, and can't be owned
If their ancestors owned that dungeon - without the proper procedures, the dungeon very well may be escheated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escheat)
And any Undead isn't an owner by the very definition - because any rights (including the right of ownership) lasts only up to death

And now I see a Lawyer Vampire - with maxed Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (law) - who use obscure technicalities to enter the buildings uninvited... :smallbiggrin:



True. I wonder if they can fly over a body of water. Or teleport over one?As I understand that RAW - he can teleport, but not fly: flying is a movement; teleportation - isn't