Morale question

[Aurosman]

So I'm playing a necropolitan, I know that morale effects don't affect undead because they are immune to mind-affecting spells/abilities. I came across the valiant fury spell and it is transmutation. So for spells like that am I still immune to the strength, con(yes I know I have no con), and the will saves. But I still get the extra attack with a full attack?

[flappeercraft]

No bonus to Will, Con or Str. Morale is always considered a Mind Affecting Effect as per RC. The extra attack though does apply as it is not a mind affecting effect as it is not a morale bonus or a mind affecting spell.

[Jormengand]

Be glad that you're immune to the CON bonus - there is precedent (sentry ooze, IIRC) that nonability + number = that number. So adding 2 to your CON from a con of - would give you a resultant CON of 2. Yes, this is stupid.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Worth noting that you can suppress your immunity and voluntarily accept the spells result, as long as it has a saving throw.



Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

The example in the PHB is an elf suppressing her immunity to sleep effects.

[Crake]

Worth noting that you can suppress your immunity and voluntarily accept the spells result, as long as it has a saving throw.



The example in the PHB is an elf suppressing her immunity to sleep effects.

The problem there is that immunity to mind affecting is not a special resistance to magic. There are plenty of mind affecting effects that are non-magical, thus their immunity is not magic specific, and cannot be lowered in a similar manner. The example of an elf lowering their immunity to sleep is tantamount to lowering your spell resistance, or in the case of creatures immune to magic, lowering your spell immunity. Unfortunately for other things, it's not so easy, in fact there are whole options dedicated to being able to grant undead mind affecting bonuses, see the feat Requiem for an example.

If you follow your line of logic, a construct (constructs aren't a valid target for the spell) Elemental, or Plant, which lacks the anatomy to be affected by poison, could willingly succumb itself to the poison spell, despite being immune, which is of course nonsense.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The problem there is that immunity to mind affecting is not a special resistance to magic. There are plenty of mind affecting effects that are non-magical, thus their immunity is not magic specific, and cannot be lowered in a similar manner. The example of an elf lowering their immunity to sleep is tantamount to lowering your spell resistance, or in the case of creatures immune to magic, lowering your spell immunity. Unfortunately for other things, it's not so easy, in fact there are whole options dedicated to being able to grant undead mind affecting bonuses, see the feat Requiem for an example.

- I'm pretty sure there are non-magical sleep effects, so this line of reasoning doesn't work.

Edit: Yep, the poison from a Dark Naga, Homunculus, and Pseudodragon all put the victim to sleep. Pixies also have sleep arrows that are EX.

- Immunity to mind-effecting also covers magical immunities, which according to the text can be lowered.

Edit: Elves have immunity to sleep spells and effects, which is borader than just an immunity to a certain type of magic.


If you follow your line of logic, a construct (constructs aren't a valid target for the spell) Elemental, or Plant, which lacks the anatomy to be affected by poison, could willingly succumb itself to the poison spell, despite being immune, which is of course nonsense.

RAW is often ridiculous; that's not a good argument.

[Crake]

- I'm pretty sure there are non-magical sleep effects, so this line of reasoning doesn't work.

Edit: Yep, the poison from a Dark Naga, Homunculus, and Pseudodragon all put the victim to sleep. Pixies also have sleep arrows that are EX.

- Immunity to mind-effecting also covers magical immunities, which according to the text can be lowered.

Edit: Elves have immunity to sleep spells and effects, which is borader than just an immunity to a certain type of magic.



RAW is often ridiculous; that's not a good argument.

Note how the sleep in the elf's immunity is in italics? That denotes the sleep spell. They're only immune to spells and effects based on the sleep spell specifically. Pixie arrows are also not Ex, as denoted in savage species, the arrows themselves are magical, the Ex ability is denoted as the possession of those arrows, and the ability to create them. Pseudodragon and homonculus poisons are not based on the sleep spell, and thus elves are not immune to them. You will be hard pressed to find a non-magical sleep (not sleep) effect.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Note how the sleep in the elf's immunity is in italics? That denotes the sleep spell. They're only immune to spells and effects based on the sleep spell specifically.

No, sleep effects are not magical in nature; the text would say magical effects if it meant that.


Pixie arrows are also not Ex, as denoted in savage species, the arrows themselves are magical, the Ex ability is denoted as the possession of those arrows, and the ability to create them.

Savage Species is 3.0 and is superseded by the MM.


Pseudodragon and homonculus poisons are not based on the sleep spell, and thus elves are not immune to them. You will be hard pressed to find a non-magical sleep (not sleep) effect.

Elves are immune to sleep effects, not just spells.



Immunity to sleep spells and effects

Effects are far more general, and include things that aren't spells.

Edit: If Elves are only supposed to immune to the Sleep spell, why add the additional text about effects?

[Crake]

Edit: If Elves are only supposed to immune to the Sleep spell, why add the additional text about effects?

As I said, you're ignoring the fact that sleep is in italics. There are non-spell effects that are based on the sleep spell, for example a petal's lullaby song, or a witch's slumbering hex. It's not a spell, but it is an effect (and both supernatural at that). The sleep being in italics is very important, it denotes the difference between the general word sleep, and the sleep spell itself. So elves are immune to the sleep spell, and anything that functions off of it.

As for savage species being superceded by the monster manual, that isn't the case, because the rules aren't contradictory, they're supplementary, clarifying something, and not refuting it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

As I said, you're ignoring the fact that sleep is in italics. There are non-spell effects that are based on the sleep spell, for example a petal's lullaby song, or a witch's slumbering hex. It's not a spell, but it is an effect (and both supernatural at that). The sleep being in italics is very important, it denotes the difference between the general word sleep, and the sleep spell itself. So elves are immune to the sleep spell, and anything that functions off of it.

Then why include the effects clause? Sleep is also a condition, which is separate from the spell.

Edit: It says Sleep spells and effects; I don't buy this argument.

Edit 2: Do have some sort of citation for italics meaning that the passage is referring to the spell sleep? Ah I see, spells are italicized. It doesn't really matter, because it refers to sleep in the plural, meaning it can't be the spell sleep.


As for savage species being superceded by the monster manual, that isn't the case, because the rules aren't contradictory, they're supplementary, clarifying something, and not refuting it.

The MM is quite explicit about the Pixie's sleep arrows being EX; if Savage Species claims otherwise, its wrong.

Edit: Pixies arrows do say they work as the Sleep spell, in any case; while the poisons of the monsters I mentioned earlier do not.

[Crake]

Then why include the effects clause? Sleep is also a condition, which is separate from the spell.

I already gave examples of effects based on the sleep spell that were not spells themselves.


Edit: It says Sleep spells and effects; I don't buy this argument.

There are spells that are based on the sleep spell, see deep slumber for an example.


The MM is quite explicit about the Pixie's sleep arrows being EX; if Savage Species claims otherwise, its wrong.

As I mentioned, SS doesn't deny that the pixie special arrows ability is Ex, it clarifies it to mean that pixies can have and create those arrows.


Edit: Pixies arrows do say they work as the Sleep spell, in any case; while the poisons of the monsters I mentioned earlier do not.

Which is why those poisons would work on an elf.

[Bohandas]

Elves are immune to sleep effects because they don't sleep, period. Lowering their immunity to sleep spells would be like a gibbering mouther lowering it's immunity to decapitation.

[Hiro Quester]

Back to the original question: Can someone immune to mind-affecting lower their immunity to be affected by a morale bonus.

Mind blank grants immunity to mind-affecting effects.

But I thought I read that people with mind blank running can still choose to be affected by particular mind-affecting spells and abilities (like Bard's Inspire Courage). I'll try to find a reference.

[Deophaun]

I'm certain I saw somewhere in the rules that can always benefit from morale effects that you apply to yourself, even if you are normally immune. That said, in my search for that rule, I came upon this amusing entry:

Necromantic Commander Your unliving allies battle the living with exceptional fervor. Prerequisite: Commander rating 2, any evil alignment, ability to command or rebuke undead. Benefit: Undead allies within 30 feet of you that have an Intelligence score of 1 or higher deal an extra 1d6 points of damage on melee attacks made against living creatures. This benefit is considered a morale bonus.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm having trouble finding any rule about being able to lower your immunity to mind-affecting when using Mind blank.


I'm certain I saw somewhere in the rules that can always benefit from morale effects that you apply to yourself, even if you are normally immune. That said, in my search for that rule, I came upon this amusing entry:

A feat that lets you make undead fight more ferociously for you, but is a morale effect. that is weird. Is that From Heroes of Battle?