Great Old Ones Who Wouldn't Bother Warlocks

[Basement Cat]

So my Green Knight paladin had to deal with a Dark Cult and in order to stop them he dipped into the Warlock class for 2 levels (this is how we role played him multiclassing). The Cult was a weird smorgasborgh of crazies who represented several Great Old Ones and were planning--of course--on opening the Gate to bring them back (and destroy the world).

So my DM said I could choose which Great Old One I'd make a pact with. Being fond of H.P. Lovecraft (and no fool) I chose to make a 'pact' with The Great Daemon Sultan Azathoth:


[O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.

The catch, as it were, is that Azathoth is described as being mindless and entirely indifferent to the existence of its worshipers. Thus, I reasoned, there would be no reason to be concerned that Azathoth would ever interfere in my PC's life the way a Fiend or Fey would.

My DM thought about it and pretty much agreed with me. Not that he's stated that I'm entirely off the hook... :smalleek:

So there's the idea: Great Old Ones exist, sure, but because of their very nature people can tap some of them for power (Warlock 'pact') without necessarily drawing their attention. Does this make sense to you? Do you think it goes against the core 'idea' of a Warlock even though it's only a two level dip?

[imanidiot]

So my Green Knight paladin had to deal with a Dark Cult and in order to stop them he dipped into the Warlock class for 2 levels (this is how we role played him multiclassing). The Cult was a weird smorgasborgh of crazies who represented several Great Old Ones and were planning--of course--on opening the Gate to bring them back (and destroy the world).

So my DM said I could choose which Great Old One I'd make a pact with. Being fond of H.P. Lovecraft (and no fool) I chose to make a 'pact' with The Great Daemon Sultan Azathoth:



The catch, as it were, is that Azathoth is described as being mindless and entirely indifferent to the existence of its worshipers. Thus, I reasoned, there would be no reason to be concerned that Azathoth would ever interfere in my PC's life the way a Fiend or Fey would.

My DM thought about it and pretty much agreed with me. Not that he's stated that I'm entirely off the hook... :smalleek:

So there's the idea: Great Old Ones exist, sure, but because of their very nature people can tap some of them for power (Warlock 'pact') without necessarily drawing their attention. Does this make sense to you? Do you think it goes against the core 'idea' of a Warlock even though it's only a two level dip?

I treat Warlocks the same as Paladins, for both you aren't "really" a Warlock/Paladin until 3rd level when you get the Pact/Oath class features. Your 2 level dip is just fiddling around with dark magic and figuring things out on your own.

[polymphus]

Not all Lovecraftian gods are so hands-off. If you must use the Cthulhu Mythos, there's guys like Hastur and Nyarlathotep who are equally unknowable but like to get a lot more involved in the affairs of mankind.

Though I do kinda like the idea of a Thief of Praise, who somehow manages to steal his power from an uncaring god. It would be weird and difficult to play, but pretty awesome to pull off.

[Basement Cat]

I treat Warlocks the same as Paladins, for both you aren't "really" a Warlock/Paladin until 3rd level when you get the Pact/Oath class features. Your 2 level dip is just fiddling around with dark magic and figuring things out on your own.

That's precisely how I'm playing the dip: He dabbled in "forbidden arts" for the sake of saving the world.

After I hit 7th level as a Paladin I plan to go Wizard for the rest of his career so the Warlock dip works for me story wise.


Not all Lovecraftian gods are so hands-off. If you must use the Cthulhu Mythos, there's guys like Hastur and Nyarlathotep who are equally unknowable but like to get a lot more involved in the affairs of mankind.

Though I do kinda like the idea of a Thief of Praise, who somehow manages to steal his power from an uncaring god. It would be weird and difficult to play, but pretty awesome to pull off.

Nyarlathotep would be the absolute worst GOO to form a pact with because he/it actually understands humans and walks among them i.e. The Crawling Chaos. I would be terrified of pacting with Nyarlathotep--even more than with a fiend.

[polymphus]

Oh yeah totally, but a Nyarlathotep warlock would also be rad as hell. That's a real Cthulhu character right there -- at all times paranoid that any loose thought they have will result in their total destruction at the hands of a rogue god; driven to madness because they thought they were taking a safe option and had no idea how deep they were getting in.

[Finback]

For an extensive list,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_deities#Table_of_Great_Old_Ones

Personally, I think there are lots you can go with who aren't necessarily the entirely-mind-shattering blob-entities everyone imagines them to be. I can see a Yuan-Ti warlock having Yig, Father of Serpents as their GOO. Bokrug, the Water Lizard seemed to not really give a damn, until humans slaughtered his worshippers - I can see him not giving a damn either way. Same as Tsathoggua - in "The Seven Geases", he seemed like a pretty chill guy. Almost the GOO of stoners. Or even Nyogtha, who is basically just a mass of shadows.

[Ventruenox]

While Azathoth may be the safest singular choice, who is to say that Nyarlathotep or other Great Old Ones wouldn't come a-knocking, simply because there is an established connection with your character and the mythos? Nyarlathotep may actually view that as part of his mandate, if we could comprehend it.

Something else to consider would be the enemies of the Cthulhu pantheon. What of the Elder Things, the Mi-Go, the Yith? They may wish to seek out and destroy any and all vestiges of such power.

I feel a little cheated that I multiclassed GOOlock, Hastur patron, and my DM doesn't know Lovecraft. As such, we ended up running the pact as though I were one of the Green Lantern Corps, with a directive to foster entropy.

[Dappershire]

If you don't occasionally wake up with tentacles writhing out of your eyesockets, chanting in strange tongues that make your companion's ears bleed; can you even call yourself a GOOlock?

But truly, OP, i'm fine with the idea. It not only makes sense, but actually fits in with the mythos. If you feel like you're cheating the system however, remember that the GOO doesn't have to recognize you, to infect you. Just handling the essence of their power may be enough to corrupt your mind with mad whispers. Your Paladin powers can't protect you from that which you welcome within yourself.

[Vogie]

I definitely agree... however, I could also see one argue that a GOOlock would also be corrupted by the Old One's influence over time, and a max-level GOOlock has a large possibility to lose their minds to the Old One by drawing their focus.

[CursedRhubarb]

If you haven't read Lovecraft's "Dreams in the Witch House" I'd recommend it. In it is the character Keziah Mason who is a witch, but could be considered a Warlock, of Azathoth and her familiar, the rat with a human face, known as Brown Jenkin. It can also give some ideas on how a pact with Azathoth would be done, but does also give an idea that he isn't one to always just sit back and let people have powers at no cost.

Also, having the Blind, Idiot God as a patron can be a blast. Had good times with my own GOO Lock of Azathoth.

[JellyPooga]

My only conflict with the OPs notion is the dichotomy between the (presumably) Oath of the Ancients being all "bring good and light into the world" and Azathoths "entropy is all that matters". That's two directly opposing ideals right there. That's not to say it can't be roleplayed at all, but it could be tricksy. A different, more humanist GOO might be more appropriate.

[NecroDancer]

I once thought of playing a GOOlock who was trying to save the world, like Horton does from Dr Seus's "Horton Hears a Who".

[polymphus]

There's a ton of reasons why a GOOlock might want to save the world. 'Ineffable' doesn't necessarily mean 'homicidal'.

Like, maybe there's an arrangement of standing stones somewhere on the planet, and they can't exist on any other planet for reasons beyond the player, and the GOO insists that the whole world doesn't get blown up because it would ruin his nice stones. The motivations of a Great Old One don't need to be explained or even make sense.

Maybe that dragon needs to be removed from that hoard not for HONOUR or JUSTICE but because it tampers with some million-year plan that you could never hope to understand. Maybe there's a wooden cup in the hoard, and it's the one thing your Warlock must find, then fill with saliva and leave on a mountaintop at dawn. GOOlocks have a million reasons to save the world, they're just super weirdass reasons.

[Rebonack]

I've always been fond of fluffing Azathoth as a sort of quantum uncertainty incarnate. Sure, the being is Big O Omnipotent, but given that it is completely ignorant of both itself and everything not-itself that power manifests as random frothing of the quantum foam.

If we take her high priest from Mu seriously, Shubby is "benevolent" with giant finger quotes. As in she wants "good" for humanity. The only problem is that her concept of "good" probably wouldn't quite match up with what humans would find desirable. Then of course there's Nyarlathotep who is straight up malevolent. And Yog-Sothoth is apparently only interested in 'seeding' itself by creating more Warlocks with the eventual hope of being able to escape its prison. I tend to steer away from straight up using the Lovecraft pantheon for Far Realm beings of power, but they make for useful inspiration. We have the full gamut running from evil to 'good' to ambivalent to true neutral. And with all those things in mind, there's plenty of room to create some interesting beings.

I really love the concept of the Star Pact from back in 4e and have expanded it to fit nicely with the GOO pact we've got now. In essence, an aberrant star is a crystal sphere that has been completely devoured by a Far Realm entity (intentionally or not). Due to this physical manifestation of the entity, it makes it pretty easy for a Warlock to siphon power from it. The corresponding Great Old One may or may not even be aware that they're being used as a power source depending on how self-aware they are.

[Basement Cat]

Something else to consider would be the enemies of the Cthulhu pantheon. What of the Elder Things, the Mi-Go, the Yith? They may wish to seek out and destroy any and all vestiges of such power.
. Those are alien species rather than 'enemies' of the Cthulhu pantheon. The GOOs are routinely unassailable by lesser entities. That's why the Elder Things jump through time--they're escaping rather than confronting.


My only conflict with the OPs notion is the dichotomy between the (presumably) Oath of the Ancients being all "bring good and light into the world" and Azathoths "entropy is all that matters". That's two directly opposing ideals right there. That's not to say it can't be roleplayed at all, but it could be tricksy. A different, more humanist GOO might be more appropriate. The dichotomy gives delicious flavor to the conflict: In order to preserve the light he had to dabble in the darkness, etc, ultimately being willing to sacrifice himself, etc for his duty...

BTW: Great Old Ones are Humanitarians (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImAHumanitarian) rather than Humanistic. :smalltongue:


I've always been fond of fluffing Azathoth as a sort of quantum uncertainty incarnate. Sure, the being is Big O Omnipotent, but given that it is completely ignorant of both itself and everything not-itself that power manifests as random frothing of the quantum foam.

If we take her high priest from Mu seriously, Shubby is "benevolent" with giant finger quotes. As in she wants "good" for humanity. The only problem is that her concept of "good" probably wouldn't quite match up with what humans would find desirable. Then of course there's Nyarlathotep who is straight up malevolent. And Yog-Sothoth is apparently only interested in 'seeding' itself by creating more Warlocks with the eventual hope of being able to escape its prison. I tend to steer away from straight up using the Lovecraft pantheon for Far Realm beings of power, but they make for useful inspiration. We have the full gamut running from evil to 'good' to ambivalent to true neutral. And with all those things in mind, there's plenty of room to create some interesting beings.

I really love the concept of the Star Pact from back in 4e and have expanded it to fit nicely with the GOO pact we've got now. In essence, an aberrant star is a crystal sphere that has been completely devoured by a Far Realm entity (intentionally or not). Due to this physical manifestation of the entity, it makes it pretty easy for a Warlock to siphon power from it. The corresponding Great Old One may or may not even be aware that they're being used as a power source depending on how self-aware they are.

Yeah, the GOO's ideas of tend to lack humanity's best interests in mind.

In Lovecraft's original works there was no "Good vs Evil" like August Dereleth introduced later (the Elder Gods vs. The Great Old Ones) because Lovecraft's world was intended to be completely devoid of such concepts: Humans were gnats to the aliens and gods, etc, and the more we learned of the world the more we discovered that our morality, self worth, ideals, beliefs and so on were utterly moot worthless in the face of the vast uncaring reality we so terribly misinterpreted in our naive self interest.

[Rebonack]

Yeah, the GOO's ideas of tend to lack humanity's best interests in mind.

In Lovecraft's original works there was no "Good vs Evil" like August Dereleth introduced later (the Elder Gods vs. The Great Old Ones) because Lovecraft's world was intended to be completely devoid of such concepts: Humans were gnats to the aliens and gods, etc, and the more we learned of the world the more we discovered that our morality, self worth, ideals, beliefs and so on were utterly moot worthless in the face of the vast uncaring reality we so terribly misinterpreted in our naive self interest.

Shubby's priest calls her 'friendly to man' in Out of the Aeons, which was a work that Lovecraft penned under a different name. I personally find it VERY likely that he was just giving a human interpretation of Shub's actions, as humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize the motivations of other creatures. It's natural for us as social creatures to try to empathize with others to try to get inside their head, so to speak. But that doesn't mean Shub is actually good. Hence the giant finger quotes. It's quite possible that the Black Goat's actions might be beneficial to humans without that being the goal at all, but rather a wholly unintended side effect of her going about her business which humanity doesn't figure into at all. Or maybe her 'benevolence' is the result in something akin to curiosity, as a human might toss a few crumbs to some ants one moment and then destroy the ant colony the next so they can build a new deck.

In my take at least, the things that a GOO does could be cast by mortals as falling within the Good-Evil/Law-Chaos axis, but that's a purely human interpretation of things. Things from the Far Realm are not part of the Great Wheel. They don't have souls. They don't align with the ethical or moral axis at all. They are absolutely alien. But in spite of that, one can approach their actions by way of analogy to things we DO understand. It might not be accurate, but it's a start.

[JAL_1138]

In Through the Gates of the Silver Key, Yog-Sothoth doesn't behave as a malevolent entity at all. It just opens the doors, providing knowledge and access to the multiverse. It doesn't force the protagonist into anything, kinda warns him to an extent of possible dangers, and gives him the option to turn back instead of continuing through the gates. If people go insane, it's because what they see beyond the gate overwhelms them, not because he drives them mad himself, and he doesn't seek destruction or chaos.

So that version of Yog-Sothoth might be a good option for someone dabbling in dark power. He asks no price and issues no commands, just grants knowledge...but sometimes that knowledge leads to dire consequences or draws the attention of terrible things, and Yog-Sothoth won't keep you safe from what you find beyond the gate.

[JackPhoenix]

I treat Warlocks the same as Paladins, for both you aren't "really" a Warlock/Paladin until 3rd level when you get the Pact/Oath class features. Your 2 level dip is just fiddling around with dark magic and figuring things out on your own.

Warlocks, unlike paladins, have their subclass (patron, not pact) since level 1. Pact boon is gift from your patron given later for the good services or whatever other reason. "Fiddling around with dark magic" is what anyone can do, but it doesn't turn you into a warlock until you sell your soul (or make whatever deal is appropriate), which happens at first level of warlock class.


I really love the concept of the Star Pact from back in 4e and have expanded it to fit nicely with the GOO pact we've got now. In essence, an aberrant star is a crystal sphere that has been completely devoured by a Far Realm entity (intentionally or not). Due to this physical manifestation of the entity, it makes it pretty easy for a Warlock to siphon power from it. The corresponding Great Old One may or may not even be aware that they're being used as a power source depending on how self-aware they are.

That concept, however, runs contrary to the Spelljammer's description of crystal spheres, and kinda denies their existence. In Spelljammer, stars aren't different crystal spheres, they are holes in the shell of crystal sphere allowing you to see the luminous phlogiston outside, portals to planes of fire and light (elemental plane of fire, positive energy plane, quasielemental plane of radiance... there are many possibilities), giant glowing bugs crawling on the underside of the crystal sphere...

Point is, you can't see other crystal spheres thanks to yours (which is opaque) and the phlogiston (which is glowing and also opaque over a distance) being in the way.

[Rebonack]

That concept, however, runs contrary to the Spelljammer's description of crystal spheres, and kinda denies their existence. In Spelljammer, stars aren't different crystal spheres, they are holes in the shell of crystal sphere allowing you to see the luminous phlogiston outside, portals to planes of fire and light (elemental plane of fire, positive energy plane, quasielemental plane of radiance... there are many possibilities), giant glowing bugs crawling on the underside of the crystal sphere...

Point is, you can't see other crystal spheres thanks to yours (which is opaque) and the phlogiston (which is glowing and also opaque over a distance) being in the way.

Which in turn is contradicted by this (http://www.wizards.com/files/366_Warlocks.pdf) which posits that the stars are, in fact, other stars. It was largely what I was basing my concept on. Spelljammer hasn't really been supported since, what, second edition or so? Quite a bit of cosmology has been monkeyed with since then.

[JackPhoenix]

Which in turn is contradicted by this (http://www.wizards.com/files/366_Warlocks.pdf) which posits that the stars are, in fact, other stars. It was largely what I was basing my concept on. Spelljammer hasn't really been supported since, what, second edition or so? Quite a bit of cosmology has been monkeyed with since then.

Well, you mentioned crystal spheres... those exists in Spelljammer, and apperently were scrapped for 4e. I was just noting that crystal spheres are something different, and don't exist in the same setting as Hadar & co.. Note: there's not a single mention of crystal spheres in 5e DMG either.

[Rebonack]

Well, you mentioned crystal spheres... those exists in Spelljammer, and apperently were scrapped for 4e. I was just noting that crystal spheres are something different, and don't exist in the same setting as Hadar & co.. Note: there's not a single mention of crystal spheres in 5e DMG either.

Ah, okay. I had it floating around in my head that crystal spheres were still a thing. But I guess not? Just replace 'crystal sphere' with 'star and/or solar system' and it works just fine.

[Hooligan]

I'd love to play a warlock who draws from Father Dagon and Mother Hydra, who has gazed upon many-columned Y'ha-nthlei undersea!

They could have a touch of the Innsmouth look...

[Fearan]

So, Azathoth is mindless and indifferent - why would he'd even bother to make a pact? Having no outside interference with your warlock kinda devalues the whole concept. Why wouldn't you take Warlock 2 on any charisma-based character and just continue murderhoboing, if nothing will come out of it other then best blast in the game?

[Ser Loras]

The catch, as it were, is that Azathoth is described as being mindless and entirely indifferent to the existence of its worshipers. Thus, I reasoned, there would be no reason to be concerned that Azathoth would ever interfere in my PC's life the way a Fiend or Fey would.

I've never played a Warlock of the Great Old One before, but to me, the balancing act here in terms of the Patron not being as active in the Warlock's life as a Fiend or Archfey is that a Warlock of the Great Old One has to be pretty much insane - at least, in my opinion. I'm always reminded of the cultists from Darkest Dungeon and the asylum patients - that's the sort of vibe I'd be shooting for if I were portraying an Old One Warlock. Obviously everyone's interpretation is different but, I know if I was to play one, that's the angle I'd go for, and that's how I'd justify not having the Old One actively interfering to the same extent either of the other Patron options might.

[JellyPooga]

I've never played a Warlock of the Great Old One before, but to me, the balancing act here in terms of the Patron not being as active in the Warlock's life as a Fiend or Archfey is that a Warlock of the Great Old One has to be pretty much insane - at least, in my opinion. I'm always reminded of the cultists from Darkest Dungeon and the asylum patients - that's the sort of vibe I'd be shooting for if I were portraying an Old One Warlock. Obviously everyone's interpretation is different but, I know if I was to play one, that's the angle I'd go for, and that's how I'd justify not having the Old One actively interfering to the same extent either of the other Patron options might.

A GOOlock doesn't have to be insane in the "gibbering lunatic" sense, but a cultist of Azathoth would certainly be insane in the sense that he pursues the end of all things, himself included. Perhaps not knowingly, or intentionally, but by his support of Big-A, he's indirectly (or directly) bringing about the end-times. That's why I have an issue with the OPs concept; a Pact with Azathoth directly contradicts the Oath of Ancients; they are diametrically opposed.

[CursedRhubarb]

There is a big difference between a worshipper and a warlock. While Azathoth may almost completely ignore someone who worships it, someone who has signed a contract with it (See the Witch House) they may be unwilling or even unknowing pawn of it. The main character finds himself having weirdly vivid dreams until he realizes they are not dreams but when he sleeps he is compelled to do things unconsciously, like travel to another planet or kidnap a baby from the local town to be sacrificed. Not exactly what I'd call "completely indifferent". But then, this is with someone who signed a contract with Azathoth, not someone who simply worships it.

[Rebonack]

So, Azathoth is mindless and indifferent - why would he'd even bother to make a pact? Having no outside interference with your warlock kinda devalues the whole concept. Why wouldn't you take Warlock 2 on any charisma-based character and just continue murderhoboing, if nothing will come out of it other then best blast in the game?

The GOO patron is specifically called out as possibly being unaware of the Warlock. In that case it's less making a contract with the being and more figuring out how to siphon power from it. Comparatively speaking, it would be like a dust mite living in your eyebrows. They're deriving energy (food) from you, but they're totally below your notice.

However, if the Outer Gods pantheon is being run in OP's game, then any 'pact' with Azathoth is pretty much 100% guaranteed to attract the attention of Nyarlathotep. And that's bad.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

What about the D&D lore-friendly Old Ones that aren't the actual Lovecraft Old Ones?
In Forgotten Realms, you could go with Dendar the Night Serpant; eater of nightmares and the Sun. (It ate the first sun of antiquity, I think during the Dawn Wars, and is fated to eat the sun again at the end of Torils time)

[Chugger]

I'd have serious trouble justifying why I keep my Pal powers if I were to dip anywhere in the lock pool. The exception would be that some Pals now aren't lawful good and are perhaps with some funky deity - I could buy a hippy Pal (the nature ones) being allowed to do some sort of Fey pact, esp. if that Fey is also under the control of or allied with the Pal's basic nature deity. That would track.

But a classic lawful good pal dipping any lock level would be very hard for me to buy working. Very.

[Unoriginal]

So there's the idea: Great Old Ones exist, sure, but because of their very nature people can tap some of them for power (Warlock 'pact') without necessarily drawing their attention. Does this make sense to you?

Pretty sure the PHB describes this exact situation and say it's ok.


If you haven't read Lovecraft's "Dreams in the Witch House" I'd recommend it. In it is the character Keziah Mason who is a witch, but could be considered a Warlock, of Azathoth and her familiar, the rat with a human face, known as Brown Jenkin. It can also give some ideas on how a pact with Azathoth would be done, but does also give an idea that he isn't one to always just sit back and let people have powers at no cost.

Also, having the Blind, Idiot God as a patron can be a blast. Had good times with my own GOO Lock of Azathoth.

Mason was more a warlock of Nyarlathothep.

Azathoth is more the record-keeper of the pacts.


My only conflict with the OPs notion is the dichotomy between the (presumably) Oath of the Ancients being all "bring good and light into the world" and Azathoths "entropy is all that matters". That's two directly opposing ideals right there. That's not to say it can't be roleplayed at all, but it could be tricksy. A different, more humanist GOO might be more appropriate.

Azathoth doesn't care about entropy that much. He just make the universe work.


I'd have serious trouble justifying why I keep my Pal powers if I were to dip anywhere in the lock pool.

There is nothing in any of the Paladin Oath that would prevent to become a warlock. Aside from maybe Paladin of Devotion and Fiend warlock



But a classic lawful good pal dipping any lock level would be very hard for me to buy working. Very.

Why? Fey can be benevolent, and there is even a Celestial patron Warlock in the UA

[Chugger]

There is nothing in any of the Paladin Oath that would prevent to become a warlock. Aside from maybe Paladin of Devotion and Fiend warlock




Why? Fey can be benevolent, and there is even a Celestial patron Warlock in the UA

I guess so. I meant as a player I'd have trouble w/ it - I realize if I'm DMing the pal concept has been much changed, mostly a good thing.

I would feel better about a cleric/lock or a pal/lock multi if the powers came from the same basic camp - that's what I was saying - and basically so are you - didn't realize there's a UA for celes - that would make sense.

[McNinja]

some million-year plan that you could never hope to understand.
It's not so much that we can't understand it, it's that the gods won't take the time to explain it. Most reasonably intelligent people today could grasp the entirety of an alien god's plan, assuming it's also spoken in a language those people understand.

[Rebonack]

Consider also that the central themes of Lovecraft's works (that humans do not matter, that our ethics are fragile social constructs and nothing more, that the universe does not revolve around us and the beings of power in at are apathetic toward us at best) simply don't work in most of the published D&D settings. In a setting of active gods, immortal souls, angels and demons, and an ethical system hard-wired into the fabric of reality all the themes of Cosmic Horror ring hollow.

So when I'm doing Far Realm related stuff, I steer away from fantastic nihilism and toward the Colour Out of Space.

Things from the Far Realm are alien. Some of them are really alien, like the aforementioned Colour. Others are alien, but still quite recognizable like the Mi-Go or the Ghouls. They're recognizable as living things, though their way of thinking and what they value won't sync up with how a human might view things. And I take this alienness a step further than simply weird forms or odd mindsets. The very substance of the Far Realm and its denizens is radically different from the Great Wheel.

A mortal's body is made of some mixture of Earth, Fire, Air, and Water. They're motivated by the interplay of positive and negative energy. Their souls are made of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. And depending on how things go they end up in an afterlife where their choices further cement their ethical substance as a new Outsider.

A being from the Far Realm is none of those things. They have no soul. The concept of Good and Evil as an absolute reality is utterly incomprehensible to them. They aren't made of the classical Greek elements. Instead, they're made of matter/energy, space/time, language/information, and perception/will. How those elements interact is largely determined by what entity (if any) is dominant on a particular layer. And this difference in nature colors (colours?) the perception Far Realm beings tend to have toward mortal beings (assuming they notice them at all). They don't look down on mortals just because they're older or more powerful or bigger, but because they don't consider mortals to be real.

Consider it for a moment. On the one hand you have a being that is composed of concrete stuff. And on the other, one made out of a bunch of platonic ideals that, from the perspective of a Far Realmer, shouldn't even be self-aware. Because without any concept of absolute Good and Evil, there's no concept of a D&D soul, either. So from that random aberrant monster's perspective, a human would be a philosophical zombie at best and a mere illusion at worst. What's the harm in extinguishing all life on that planet to accomplish a goal if they're just fictional characters?

All this works together to add a touch of that Cosmic Horror back into things. The heavens and hells are one little ethical blip in a vast, uncaring sea of amorality. Gods might care about mortals since prayer and souls matter to them, but to a Great Old One such things are irrelevant not just because human ethics mean nothing to them, but because the very concept of a soul is too alien for them to grasp. Because alienness really isn't alienness unless it cuts both ways.

This is why I roll with the pacts with aberrant stars for Great Old One Warlocks. If a Great Old One has infringed upon reality enough to consume a star (or solar system), then it's quite a bit more likely that said being is taking some degree of interest in reality. If the GOO Warlock is given any commands from their patron, they're typically going to be bizarre or esoteric. And when those demands come, they're going to be absolutely overpowering. The poor protagonist from Dreams in the Witch House didn't exactly have much choice when it was time to do some sleep-walking baby-collection, after all.

[Elminster298]

Warlocks, unlike paladins, have their subclass (patron, not pact) since level 1. Pact boon is gift from your patron given later for the good services or whatever other reason. "Fiddling around with dark magic" is what anyone can do, but it doesn't turn you into a warlock until you sell your soul (or make whatever deal is appropriate), which happens at first level of warlock class.


Incorrect. Your "Pact" is the actual signing of a contract. Having a "Patron" simply means you have gained the attention of a powerful being. Anyone can play it however they want to and I'll not call it "wrong". However, from a purely technical point of view, the forming of the Pact is the actual signing of the agreed upon contract.

[Millstone85]

And I take this alienness a step further than simply weird forms or odd mindsets. The very substance of the Far Realm and its denizens is radically different from the Great Wheel.

A mortal's body is made of some mixture of Earth, Fire, Air, and Water. They're motivated by the interplay of positive and negative energy. Their souls are made of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. And depending on how things go they end up in an afterlife where their choices further cement their ethical substance as a new Outsider.

A being from the Far Realm is none of those things. They have no soul. The concept of Good and Evil as an absolute reality is utterly incomprehensible to them. They aren't made of the classical Greek elements.I gave a similar pitch for my goolock, with the difference that the Far Realm does contain Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Radiance, Necrosis, Law, Chaos, Good and Evil in addition to its numerous alien elements, alien energies, alien ideals and other alien essences.

The idea here is that the Great Wheel was made from a selection of what the Far Realm had to offer. Or maybe the Far Realm acquired these things when it absorbed the Great Wheel at the end of time. It is timey wimey.


Incorrect. Your "Pact" is the actual signing of a contract. Having a "Patron" simply means you have gained the attention of a powerful being. Anyone can play it however they want to and I'll not call it "wrong". However, from a purely technical point of view, the forming of the Pact is the actual signing of the agreed upon contract.Yes, but look...
Otherworldly Patron
At 1st level, you have struck a bargain with an otherworldly being of your choice
Pact Magic
Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.
Pact Boon
At 3rd level, your otherworldly patron bestows a gift upon you for your loyal service. The pact is made at 1st level. The 3rd level feature isn't the pact, it is just a boon.

Really, the options for it should be called Boon of the Blade, Boon of the Chain and Boon of the Tome.

[Rebonack]

I gave a similar pitch for my goolock, with the difference that the Far Realm does contain Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Radiance, Necrosis, Law, Chaos, Good and Evil in addition to its numerous alien elements, alien energies, alien ideals and other alien essences.

The idea here is that the Great Wheel was made from a selection of what the Far Realm had to offer. Or maybe the Far Realm acquired these things when it absorbed the Great Wheel at the end of time. It is timey wimey.

I've seen that take on it before. The Far Realm contains all possibility as well as all impossibility. So when the gods created the world, they excluded the things they didn't want and kept the things they did. I steered away from that option mostly because the 'more real than reality' helps to frame why Far Realm denizens act the way they do. If it contained the same stuff that physical universes do then they would likely see mortals as limited rather than completely alien.

This all helps to really nail down the mindset of some of these beings. When I pitched my GOO Warlock concept to my DM he actually got really excited about it. The basic idea is your standard Chainlock, however the familiar is, essentially, the actual PC. The half-elf is an anchor the creature cobbled together to effectively trick reality into thinking it has a good reason to be there. The entity is fractal and thus predisposed toward interacting with beings smaller than its whole, which is in fact why it became interested in physical worlds to begin with. It suspected that mortals are true perceptoids and not philosophical zombies, but it had no proof. To that end, it has made several forays into physical worlds, which have thus far met with varying degrees of disaster. This campaign is the entity's first attempt that has really 'stuck'.

The result has been an absolute blast to RP, given that this entity has a tentative grasp at best about how physical universes work.

[Finback]

I'd love to play a warlock who draws from Father Dagon and Mother Hydra, who has gazed upon many-columned Y'ha-nthlei undersea!

They could have a touch of the Innsmouth look...

That's what tritons were made for ;)

[spinningdice]

Slightly tangential, but I enjoyed how in Rat Queens the cultists specifically used the power of their alien god to siphon off it's power and prevent it coming through to the world. Tentacle cultists as heroes.

[JackPhoenix]

Incorrect. Your "Pact" is the actual signing of a contract. Having a "Patron" simply means you have gained the attention of a powerful being. Anyone can play it however they want to and I'll not call it "wrong". However, from a purely technical point of view, the forming of the Pact is the actual signing of the agreed upon contract.

Warlock's subclass is called "(Otherwordly) Patron", not "Pact". Pact Boon is granted at 3rd level, as mentioned in my post.

[Groovydave]

I chose Azathoth for my Orc warlock for much the same reason. I wanted to be Chaotic Neutral. My DM agrees that a system for gradual loss of sanity was appropriate. She's going to keep a secret sanity score for me while I periodically make Wisdom checks versus "things that would disturb me". I think I'll make up a chart of sanity failure reactions for my personal use as well.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: More like the Great Dead Ones!