phb not clear on xbow expertise (or I'm missing something) need help pls

[Chugger]

Am struggling again with the phb. Two Weapon Fighting says no adding damage bonus (unless neg) to the light melee weapon you're using in your off hand. But it's only talking about melee weapons (or thrown) - it says so (not bows or xbows or blowguns). What if I get Xbow Expertise and fire a hand xbow in my off-hand? Do I get to add dex damage bonus to it? The feat section says nothing about adding damage or consulting TWF - and TWF expressly limits itself to melee weapons and therefore seems not to apply. Anyone know pls if there is an official ruling on this? (sorry if this has been asked before - I may be bad at finding links - I have searched and found stuff like this, which doesn't really answer the question (a poster claims to be quoting Mearls from a tweat but quotes the wrong thing, is busted - then gets defensive and says it's clear in the phb but it isn't clear - the phb doesn't say (unless it not saying means the dex damage bonus applies https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2d2i5r/5e_dualwielding_hand_crossbows/). Anyway, I'd love some help with this - especially if anyone's seen an "official" response that isn't a "mis-tweet".

Also, can you take xbow exp and ss and dual wield hand xbows - and shoot 3 per turn - and get 1-6 + 13 x 3 if you hit w/ all 3?

Sorry if my questions were hidden in the above mass of text.

Can you add dex damage bonus to a hand xbow you're wielding in off hand using the feat xbow exp?

Can you dual wield hand xbows with the feat xbow exp? Could this be three shots if you were, say, a lvl 5 fighter?

Can you apply the SS -5 +10 to each of the three above shots?

THanks!

[Herobizkit]

The official line is that you can't/don't need to dual-wield hand xbows to get their benefit. You always need a free hand to load (as per errata), even if the supposed benefit presumes you don't - loading is part of the attack action. That said, you can fire a hand xbow twice in one hand with the Crossbow Expertise feat (as the hand xbow is a one-handed weapon) and three times if you're a high enough level to get Extra Attack.

As it's a ranged weapon, you get full Dex damage on each attack, as you are not dual-wielding.

[xanderh]

First off, you cannot dual wield hand crossbows effectively. You need an empty hand to reload the crossbow (ammunition property).
Secondly, the wording of the third clause of xbow expert says that when you attack with a one-handed weapon, you can fire a hand xbow as a bonus action. It doesn't specify that you have to hold it in a different hand, so you only need one hand xbow.
Thirdly, TWF never enters the equation, since no feat or feature mentions it, and it only applies to melee weapons.

So yes, you do get your ability modifier to damage. And yeah, you can use sharpshooter on all of those attacks.

[qube]

Can you add dex damage bonus to a hand xbow you're wielding in off hand using the feat xbow exp?

As far as RAW is concerned, two-weapon Fighting is a melee (or thrown) thing, not a ranged attack thing.


Melee attacks

Two-weapon Fighting

When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage o f the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead o f making a melee attack with it.

As it's allowed with throwing weapons, I don't see an inherent problem allowing it with crossbows as well (seeing as I also rule you can't reload them anyway without a free hand, dualwielding them is "draw & use once" - the same as a throwing weapon).


Can you dual wield hand xbows with the feat xbow exp? Could this be three shots if you were, say, a lvl 5 fighter?while you can fire 3 shots with a single handcrossbow (action for 2, bonus action for 1); as reloading becomes an issue - action enconomy wise, you get into trouble (maybe if you are holding one already, and drop it when you need to reload your main one)


Can you apply the SS -5 +10 to each of the three above shots?crossbows are a ranged weapon, so yes.

by RAW, a 'rapid fire' single hand crossbow fighter can use -5/+10 on all three attacks.

[Chugger]

First off, you cannot dual wield hand crossbows effectively. You need an empty hand to reload the crossbow (ammunition property).
Secondly, the wording of the third clause of xbow expert says that when you attack with a one-handed weapon, you can fire a hand xbow as a bonus action. It doesn't specify that you have to hold it in a different hand, so you only need one hand xbow.
Thirdly, TWF never enters the equation, since no feat or feature mentions it, and it only applies to melee weapons.

So yes, you do get your ability modifier to damage. And yeah, you can use sharpshooter on all of those attacks.

But Crossbow Expertise says you --> ignore <-- the ammunition property. Right? Does your argument still somehow hold?

If you're going to say "but reality" the answer is "DnD is not a reality emulator." Apparently someone can also use Xbow Expertise to fire a heavy crossbow twice in six seconds. It takes tens of seconds to well over a minute to reload any real life heavy crossbow. There should also be a strength score needed to be able to reload one, if we're going to emulate reality.

So ... where are we now?

TWF - yes, that is what I was establishing (it puts a limit - essentially I'm wondering if TWF puts a limit on what the off hand can do, why wouldn't xbow expertise on an off-hand weapon?). Also, you're wrong about TWF. It also applies to thrown weapons. It doesn't only apply to melee weapons, though we're getting into a fine semantic point here, as many thrown weapons are also melee weapons. But what about darts? I frankly don't care. Who uses darts? Pub crawlers, which is cool - but I don't. And yes, I'm being 96% facetious with you here. I do thank you for trying, and seriously, am I missing something on the xbow exp ignoring the loading or ammunition property?

[Yuki Akuma]

Crossbow Expert lets you ignore the Loading property that requires you to spend time reloading. It does not in any way, say anything about the Ammunition property. And it's the Ammunition property that requires you to have a free hand.

[Chugger]

As far as RAW is concerned, two-weapon Fighting is a melee (or thrown) thing, not a ranged attack thing.


Melee attacks

Two-weapon Fighting

When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage o f the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead o f making a melee attack with it.

As it's allowed with throwing weapons, I don't see an inherent problem allowing it with crossbows as well (seeing as I also rule you can't reload them anyway without a free hand, dualwielding them is "draw & use once" - the same as a throwing weapon).

while you can fire 3 shots with a single handcrossbow (action for 2, bonus action for 1); as reloading becomes an issue - action enconomy wise, you get into trouble (maybe if you are holding one already, and drop it when you need to reload your main one)

crossbows are a ranged weapon, so yes.

by RAW, a 'rapid fire' single hand crossbow fighter can use -5/+10 on all three attacks.

Thanks, but doesn't xbow expertise say you ignore the ammunition property? Ignore. You ignore that xbows need to be cocked and reloaded with two free hands, is what it seems to say.

I mean look. It's silly - if we're being realistic - that a person could fire a heavy xbow once every 6 seconds - that's absurd. They take tens of seconds to several minutes to reload, depending on the make and model - like the ones w/ cranks. I suppose something qualifying as a hvy xbow could be like one of those ones with a foot stirrup and could possibly, just barely be fired once every six seconds - but certainly not twice every six, like a lvl 5 fighter could do with the feat (xbow exp).

So if we invoke "reality" why not go all the way? Because the game becomes unplayable, of course. I'm not being snarky - I appreciate your effort to help me. And I'm saying we draw the line at various places "because of game balance" - and not reality. What I'm wondering is - officially - did someone want or intend the xbow mastery feat to mean you can ignore the ammunition property and reload without a free hand (perhaps to keep up damage levels with other classes)? Or what? Thanks. And again, I am questioning you - but I don't intend it to sound mean or snarky or disrespectful - if we were face to face you'd be able to see that in my body language and hear it in my tone of voice. I appreciate the effort.

[Chugger]

Crossbow Expert lets you ignore the Reload property that requires you to spend time reloading. It does not in any way, say anything about the Ammunition property. And it's the Ammunition property that requires you to have a free hand.

Maybe that's what I'm getting wrong then. Thx.

[Haydensan]

But Crossbow Expertise says you --> ignore <-- the ammunition property. Right? Does your argument still somehow hold?
^Emphasis mine.
EDIT: Shadowmonked

xbow expert allows you to ignore the loading property, essentially removing the once per round use restriction of a crossbow.

If you are using TWF rules to attack with the hand crossbow, be it two hand crossbows preloaded or a one handed light weapon and a hand crossbow; then you don't add dex unless you have the TWFighting style.

If you are using the XBow expert rules, be it two hand crossbows preloaded or a one handed light weapon and a hand crossbow or a singular crossbow rapid fired; then you add your dex.

[xanderh]

Maybe that's what I'm getting wrong then. Thx.

All ranged weapons that fire a projectile that isn't the weapon itself (basically all non-thrown ranged weapons) have the ammunition property. This property tells you that you need a free hand to draw ammunition for the weapon as part of the attack, and it tells you how far you can fire the weapon. In addition, all crossbows have the loading property, which means you can only fire a single crossbow once per turn. The crossbow expert feat allows you to ignore the loading property, allowing you to fire a single crossbow more than once per turn.

It's probably not the most intuitive part of the book, but reading the relevant sections carefully should make it pretty clear.

[qube]

I mean look. It's silly - if we're being realistic - that a person could fire a heavy xbow once every 6 seconds - that's absurd. They take tens of seconds to several minutes to reload, depending on the make and model - like the ones w/ cranks. I suppose something qualifying as a hvy xbow could be like one of those ones with a foot stirrup and could possibly, just barely be fired once every six seconds - but certainly not twice every six, like a lvl 5 fighter could do with the feat (xbow exp).
...
And again, I am questioning you - but I don't intend it to sound mean or snarky or disrespectful - if we were face to face you'd be able to see that in my body language and hear it in my tone of voice. I appreciate the effort.No problem. I'm a RL archer. shooting a decently powerful (non-cross)bow 2 times in 6 seconds on a moving target is also silly, so I understand your point :smallbiggrin:

Heck consider how, by design, 'rapid fire' single hand crossbow fighter can fire 5 bolts in 6 seconds :)

[Yuki Akuma]

No problem. I'm a RL archer. shooting a decently powerful (non-cross)bow 2 times in 6 seconds on a moving target is also silly, so I understand your point :smallbiggrin:

Heck consider how, by design, 'rapid fire' single hand crossbow fighter can fire 5 bolts in 6 seconds :)

Five? Try nine!

[qube]

Five? Try nine!oh, right, action surge. I stand corrected.

... supposing the bolts are at his belt, you can only wonder what kind of training he had, moving up & down with his hand so fast :smallwink:

[Theodoxus]

I always figured XBX was simply some ancient gnomish knowledge that allowed you to rig up something akin to a chinese repeating crossbow. Sure, it's pure fluff, but it makes the most amount of sense to me - and is about the only way to removing the Loading requirement without also removing the Ammunition requirement. I can't think of another way to get the bolt "magically" into the flight groove... but then I'm not a XBX IRL...

[MrFahrenheit]

Two hand xbows + xbow expertise only really work effectively on round one: if you enter combat with both weapons loaded, you can...

Fire primary hand xbow
Fire secondary hand xbow
Drop secondary hand xbow
Reload primary hand xbow
Fire primary hand xbow again
Repeat steps 4 & 5 if you're a fighter of level 11+

I know that technically you're supposed to do primary weapon attacks before off hand ones, but I see no problem with this interpretation.

FWIW...next round: drop primary hand xbow and ready heavy xbow.

[SharkForce]

Two hand xbows + xbow expertise only really work effectively on round one: if you enter combat with both weapons loaded, you can...

Fire primary hand xbow
Fire secondary hand xbow
Drop secondary hand xbow
Reload primary hand xbow
Fire primary hand xbow again
Repeat steps 4 & 5 if you're a fighter of level 11+

I know that technically you're supposed to do primary weapon attacks before off hand ones, but I see no problem with this interpretation.

FWIW...next round: drop primary hand xbow and ready heavy xbow.

nothing requires you make your attacks in any specific order, or even with any specific hand... once you've made the attack action, you've triggered the crossbow expert bonus action attack.

also, you can do it indefinitely with a single hand crossbow.

technically, you can't with a pair of hand crossbows, but i can't be bothered to stop anyone who thinks it looks cool, as long as everyone agrees to not try to abuse that ruling to use a shield + hand crossbow or something.