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Stryyke
2017-08-04, 07:12 AM
I'm in 3.5 and my DM is open to many things not core, but it's on a case by case basis. I have to be careful, though, because he despises cheese. So here's the question:

Without Summoning or Polymorphing shenanigans, what are some viable ECL 20 melee specialists?
I am not completely opposed to polymorphing, as long as it's inherent in the build, rather than requiring spells.

Monsters and templates are fine, mostly. IMPORTANT: All dragons (including anything requiring a dragon lineage) and PSI of any type are completely off the table. These are thematic restrictions, and there is no room for compromise.

I've sort of been playing around with the idea of an Ogre Half-fiend, but I know that making them relevant at ECL 20+ is problematic at best. Especially without resorting to at least some cheese. So I thought I would come here and see if I can get some ideas about how to bring my vision to life.

Eldariel
2017-08-04, 07:32 AM
Well, Core Druid focused on Wildshaping is a great option. You get two warriors, companion and your Wildshape self in one complete with the necessary buff spells up all day.

Cleric is also fine. Buff yourself with Divine Power, Righteous Might/Giant Size and minor buffs and whack enemies upside the head with a colossal stick.

Snowy-
2017-08-04, 08:27 AM
Have you got access to the Book of Nine Swords? That has better high level 'fighter' classes.

Psyren
2017-08-04, 09:07 AM
Without Summoning or Polymorphing shenanigans, what are some viable ECL 20 melee specialists?

How do you define "viable?" For some that would mean T3 or even T4 is okay, for others nothing less than T2 will do.

Assuming the latter, your best bet without shapeshifting is going to be a DMM Persist Clericzilla, which gets full BAB, heavy armor and 9th-level spells.

If it's the former, you have many more options, including non-spellcasters like ToB and Incarnum.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-08-04, 09:26 AM
"What power level are you aiming for" is a very relevant question here-- "viable high level melee" could mean everything from an ubercharging persistomancer gish with fifty buffs and a hundred contingencies to "Orc Barbarian with Power Attack."

Glancing around...

All three Tome of Battle classes are solid choices, especially with a race or template that'll give them flight.
The Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) is a natural-weapon-based face-eater of the highest order.
The Duskblade (PHB 2) can dish out some majorly painful hits all by its lonesome. Adding in PrCs that boost its spell access can ratchet it up even higher. (Duskblade 13/Ur-Priest 7 or Duskblade 13/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 6 are both major players)
A Swift Hunter build (a feat from Complete Scoundrel that stacks Ranger and Scout levels for Skirmish) can do decently, especially if you throw in Shooting Star sub levels (Champions of Valor) and Sword of the Arcane Order (same) to staple a bit of wizard casting on top of things.
A Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel; like Swift Hunter, but stacking Swashbuckler and Rogue for Sneak Attack) lacks casting but can dish out some major damage with full-BAB-high-HD-sneak-attacking.
Your standard Barbarian-type charger builds work out fine.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-04, 11:19 AM
Gishes are late-game specialists pur sang.

Paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 10 (ecl 22)

Wizard or sorcerer 6/swiftblade 10/abjurant champion 5 (ecl 21)

Wizard or sorcerer 4/warblade or crusader 1/jade phoenix mage 10/abjurant champion 5 (ecl 20)

Stryyke
2017-08-04, 01:54 PM
Well, with a half-fiend Ogre, a casting class probably isn't the best. The net ability adjustments for my casting stats would be Int 0, Wis 0, Cha -2. My physical ability adjustments would be Str +14, Dex +2, Con +6. Shapeshifting is powerful, no doubt; however it would basically be a waste of those stats. That's why I said I'd prefer to stay away from polymorph shenanigans.

I was thinking of doing either a lock-down melee build, or a pure damage dealer. A charge type build is interesting, but it doesn't quite feel right. I am looking for a build that can suck up the damage and laugh, so perhaps a lock-down build would be closer to what I'm looking for. Is there a lock-down build that has enough damage options to hold it's own one on one if needs be?

Edit: Maybe an AoO specialist?

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-04, 02:04 PM
Well, with a half-fiend Ogre, a casting class probably isn't the best. The net ability adjustments for my casting stats would be Int 0, Wis 0, Cha -2. My physical ability adjustments would be Str +14, Dex +2, Con +6. Shapeshifting is powerful, no doubt; however it would basically be a waste of those stats. That's why I said I'd prefer to stay away from polymorph shenanigans.

I was thinking of doing either a lock-down melee build, or a pure damage dealer. A charge type build is interesting, but it doesn't quite feel right. I am looking for a build that can suck up the damage and laugh, so perhaps a lock-down build would be closer to what I'm looking for. Is there a lock-down build that has enough damage options to hold it's own one on one if needs be?
Gishes don't need huge spells per day or high save DCs, so your intelligence is just fine for gishing. You only really need about 19 at level 20, and with a +6 item, that's very easy to get.

Lockdown builds can develop plenty of damage, because they typically rely on two-handed weapons. Just throw on Power Attack and some choice maneuvers, like Diamond Nightmare Blade. Decisive Strike with Pole Master (to turn a reach weapon into a monk weapon, typically guisarme) can get a nice damage multiplier that works on your AoOs as well.

For your toughness, consider the Martial Spirit + Therapeutic Mantle combo (build in my signature).

Stryyke
2017-08-04, 02:28 PM
Gishes are late-game specialists pur sang.

Paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 10 (ecl 22)

Wizard or sorcerer 6/swiftblade 10/abjurant champion 5 (ecl 21)

Wizard or sorcerer 4/warblade or crusader 1/jade phoenix mage 10/abjurant champion 5 (ecl 20)

Be a bit careful. Ogre is LA 2 and 4 HD, and Half-fiend is LA 4. So at ECL 20 I only have 10 lvls to work with.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-08-04, 03:06 PM
Be a bit careful. Ogre is LA 2 and 4 HD, and Half-fiend is LA 4. So at ECL 20 I only have 10 lvls to work with.
With 6 levels lost to LA, you're not going to be managing to suck up damage and laugh. In fact, you'll probably be struggling intensely to contribute in any way, regardless of class. Is LA buyoff on the table? Without it, anything with a LA is going to be problematic, to say the least. RHD are more palatable, since they at least give something, but they're still not ideal. Something like a Water Orc is probably a better fit for a "big strong guy" vibe-- +4 Str, +2 Con, and -2 to all mental stats.

Crusader is probably your best bet for a brick wall type, incidentally. The chassis is a good start, the delayed damage makes it even better, and Devoted Spirit maneuvers that let you hit a dude and heal yourself (or an ally, up to and including literal Heal) create an unstoppable killing machine. You also get stuff like Thicket of Blades that make AoO-based combat even better.

Eldariel
2017-08-04, 03:09 PM
Be a bit careful. Ogre is LA 2 and 4 HD, and Half-fiend is LA 4. So at ECL 20 I only have 10 lvls to work with.

I really must warn you against that. Just one Holy Word/Blasphemy line effect leaves you incapacitated, and all the higher level outsiders come equipped with those. If you want to melee those things, low HD seems extremely dangerous.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-04, 03:15 PM
Be a bit careful. Ogre is LA 2 and 4 HD, and Half-fiend is LA 4. So at ECL 20 I only have 10 lvls to work with.
Well, I was assuming that you'd play some different race, like most people who posted suggestions. Maybe half-ogre half-minotaur lesser tiefling? Gets +8 str +2 dex +2 con -2 int -4 cha, +4 NA, 40' speed, Large size, bonus gore attack, +2 on five nice skills, all for LA +1 without RHD.

If you really want to make the half-fiend ogre work, you are going to have to optimize a lot to get around the fact that your ECL 10 base has only +3 base attack. That low number really hurts your ability to Power Attack and doesn't do your to-hit any favours either - even with +14 strength, you'd only just break even compared to a plain human fighter.

Stryyke
2017-08-04, 03:16 PM
I can ask about LA buyoff, but I assume not for the time being. I completely understand about the 10 class levels being particularly problematic, but that's why I'm here. Is there any way to make that build work? Or is it completely doomed?

If it's just doomed, think of the visual of a Half-fiend Ogre. Are there any other races or templates that can give me the "large demonic monstrous humanoid with wings" look and feel, in a way that could be more viable?

Edit:
"If you really want to make the half-fiend ogre work, you are going to have to optimize a lot to get around the fact that your ECL 10 base has only +3 base attack."
Without sounding too cliche', are you saying there's a chance? I kinda like the feel of the Half-fiend Ogre.

Eldariel
2017-08-04, 03:25 PM
How about just Half-Ogre Tiefling? Large and all, can pick Outsider Wings to that end, +2 LA (using Dragon Half-Ogre Template on core Tiefling). Easily bought off by 20.

For the other race, it's hard to make it work. Ur-Priest maybe. Spell protections can help.

ViperMagnum357
2017-08-04, 03:34 PM
Decide whether you want an Initiator or not-if yes, you will want 18-20 levels worth to hit acceptable stances and whatnot. If not, your options are limited-working with a competent group, simply doing massive damage reliably is not sufficient to carry your weight. You need something else to contribute to combat, which usually means exerting battlefield control. And the simplest form of that is exceptional reach combined with tripping and disarming. Spiked chains and spinning swords are a good place to start. There are other possibilities, such as bullrushing, particularly Knockback when combined with a couple other feats.

TotallyNotEvil
2017-08-04, 03:43 PM
Can LA be bought off?

A Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur will probably work much better than the full Ogre with Half Fiend stapled on top.

@edit: Should have refreshed the page.

Tiefling does carry a lot of demonic flavor.

Stryyke
2017-08-04, 03:47 PM
What sourcebook is half-ogre from?

Eldariel
2017-08-04, 03:49 PM
Dragon Magazine #313. You can just google "Half-Ogre template 3.5" though.

Demidos
2017-08-04, 03:54 PM
You know...
If you start at a high level and could talk your DM into it, the appearance you're talking about sounds to me rather like a horned devil, or something similar -- is there any way you can just talk him into letting you play one of those, with no LA? 15 HD for CR 16, good stats and abilities, and supposedly on par with a 16th level character at that same level -- since you are limiting yourself to a melee at such high level, perhaps he will allow it? It'd give you some pretty sweet abilities that you could finish out with something like Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Warblade/Crusader for a pretty impressive character that can pull off some pretty cool tricks, but doesn't really have anything broken.

Stryyke
2017-08-04, 04:01 PM
You know...
If you start at a high level and could talk your DM into it, the appearance you're talking about sounds to me rather like a horned devil, or something similar -- is there any way you can just talk him into letting you play one of those, with no LA? 15 HD for CR 16, good stats and abilities, and supposedly on par with a 16th level character at that same level -- since you are limiting yourself to a melee at such high level, perhaps he will allow it? It'd give you some pretty sweet abilities that you could finish out with something like Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Warblade/Crusader for a pretty impressive character that can pull off some pretty cool tricks, but doesn't really have anything broken.

As long as it's in a primary source, I could definitely do that. What is the source for that? It sounds awesome!

Eldariel
2017-08-04, 04:11 PM
As long as it's in a primary source, I could definitely do that. What is the source for that? It sounds awesome!

Beware, there's no rule that allows you to play by CR. While fair, you'd have to get DM approval.

Stryyke
2017-08-04, 04:16 PM
Beware, there's no rule that allows you to play by CR. While fair, you'd have to get DM approval.

That's fine. He's pretty willing to work with us on things, as long as they don't breach thematic restrictions, and aren't cheese.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-08-04, 04:53 PM
That's fine. He's pretty willing to work with us on things, as long as they don't breach thematic restrictions, and aren't cheese.
Well then you're in luck, because there are lots of great fiends that can be made quite playable with the right adjustments (usually, LA needs to be dropped a point or two).

Going by the Book of Vile Darkness, Fiendish Codexes, Fiend Folio, and Monster Manuals, the following are at least 10 HD, Large or larger, winged, and either devil or demon:
Balor (Large, 20 HD, CR 20, LA --, MM1)
Horned devil (Large, 15 HD, CR 16, LA --, MM1)
Klurichir (Huge, 20 HD, CR 25, LA not listed, FF)
Malebranche (Huge, 16 HD, CR 14, LA not listed, FC2)
Nalfeshnee (Huge, 14 HD, CR 14, LA --, MM1)
Paeliryon (Large, 18 HD, CR 18, LA not listed, FC2)
Pit fiend (Large, 18 HD, CR 20, LA --, MM1)
Sorrowsworn demon (large, 18 HD, CR 17, LA --, MM3)
Vrock (Large, 10 HD, CR 9, LA +8, MM1)
Xerfilstyx (Large, 15 HD, CR 15, LA not listed, FC2)

I'd suggest putting together a great monster class, and adding a few levels of initiator on top. With the right feat selection, that should keep you relevant. Higher-levelled fiends often have SLAs that provide practical tools, like true seeing.

Gruftzwerg
2017-08-04, 11:31 PM
Imho if you aim for lvl 20, don't use races with RHD/LA unless you really need to. The lvls that you'll be missing later will harm your build more than the statboost bonus on the early lvl helps. With the right feats and class abilities you'll be dishing more dmg as a regular (LA0) race at 20 than any RHD/LA race. Not to forget that you have class abilities and not just pure stats worth of X lvl.

There are 2 types of high lvl melee builds that works well. Either a mass lockdown build (incl imp. Trip/Knockdown/Knockback, extra reach + combat reflexes, optional Karmic Strike/Rolands Gambit) or a Ubercharger that will kill anything that it hits in a single strike.

You should choose the build depending on your groups optimization.
If your groups tends to play Rocket Tag with the enemies on higher lvls, go Ubercharger.
If your group doesn't optimize to much or at all, you should aim for a Lockdown build and don't go with the Ubercharger, cause will break the balance (because of the dmg optimization).

Imho it's best to go Ubercharger and tune the dmg to the lvl that fits best for your table. I mean, noone will force you to invest into dmg gear/items or feats and without them your dmg won't skyrocket so easily.

I have several charge builds (up to lvl 20) in my signature. Two suggestion for inspiration:
a) Clawlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish)
It's the ultimate predator build. You'll rely on high charge/pounce dmg, high mobility and several layers of deception and perception to kill your prey. Hunt your enemies like preys.

b) Berserking Meatshield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517187-4-quot-Driving-Attack-quot-Builds-(incl-minor-Berserk-Manga-*re-fluff*))(3rd of the 4 DA builds; aka "Guts, the Black Swordsman" from Berserk)
This is an offensive Tank build. Play dirty mind games with the enemies / your DM. Increase teammate AC while dealing high dmg and forcing enemies to provoke AoO for almost anything they do (attack you; attack your teammates near you). Further "Driving Attack" can send your enemies flying across the battlefield to play "Domino Rush". Note that the build focuses on non large Races. If you intend to go large or Goliath, you are better off with a "Knockdown/-back" build.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2017-08-05, 12:55 AM
You will not make a "viable" build with an ECL 10 race, especially a race as suboptimal as Ogre Half-Fiend.

Use the Half-Ogre race in Races of Destiny, at +2 LA and no racial HD it's miles ahead of Ogre. Buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) if possible, that rule is found in Unearthed Arcana. A +2 LA costs 16,000 xp to completely negate, which puts you behind by less than a full level's worth of XP compared to a 20th level character. If done during play, you would have gained more xp per encounter after buying off the first point until you caught up to everyone else.

Only take additional level adjustment if you can have it completely bought off by 20th level. This generally means gradually gaining a template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) and buying off each point of LA before gaining the next one. For example, you would buy off Half-Ogre at your 6th and 9th class levels respectively, spend your next level on the first point of Half-Dragon, but that off at your 12th class level, spend your next level on the second point of Half-Dragon, buy that off at your 15th class level, spend your next level on the third point of Half-Dragon, and buy that off at your 18th class level. This puts you 61,000 xp behind, or at least 16th level, so four levels behind. You'll still have gained just as much xp as everyone else during your career, so you should still have ECL 20 character wealth.

If you really want to use Half-Fiend, then use the Half-Goristro variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) (+8 Str, +8 Con, +5 natural armor, two slams that add 1.5x Str to damage, a size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), etc.) if you can gradually gain it, and apply it to a +1 or +0 LA race such as Goliath in Races of Stone. This ends up only 45,000 xp behind, or at least level 17 and half way to 18th.

Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) if possible, which gives you a 10% increase to all current and future xp gained. So a 20th level character would have accumulated 190,000 xp, so you have an additional 19,000 xp. The above Goliath Half-Goristro with Item Familiar would only be down by 26,000 xp compared to a 20th level party, so you would be at 18th level and more than half way to 19th level, or possibly even 19th level depending on the party's total starting xp.


However, none of that matters if you're not allowed to use a decent melee class. I'd recommend the following build:

Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, using the Dungeoncrasher variant in Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, and the Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features. You'll need the feat Knock Back in Races of Stone, and ideally you would also have Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) from Deities and Demigods along with Combat Reflexes and hopefully Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain. Furthermore, you'll want (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery in PH2, so at 20th level you can use your Fighter 10 bonus feat to take Weapon Supremacy in PH2. You'll also want the feat Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark, and the Fearsome armor property in that same book (which is more recent than the one in Magic Item Compendium and thus the current valid version). Maneuvers must include Iron Heart Surge.


Even after all that, and especially considering you're not guaranteed to be able to use that entire list, you're probably better off just making a Human or Gnome Druid 20. Even if you only use the core rulebooks, a Druid 20 with no level adjustment is a more powerful melee combatant than any non-cheese mix of level-adjusted race and mundane classes.

Telok
2017-08-05, 12:20 PM
Goliath and Mineral Warrior is an LA cheap option for size and durability. If you want to just ignore almost all forms of death a Curst (FR? I forget) is a +3 LA undead template that only worries about Remove Curse and Disintegrate.

For class levels crusader and warblade keep melee reasonably effective. Duskblade 5/Ur-Priest 10 is pretty amusing. If you really work it you can build a needlessly complex duskblade, warblade, crusader, cleric, ruby knight vindicator, jade phoenix mage. With emerald razor, immortal fortitude, the feat that lets you burn spell slots for +dmg, and a spell storing bloodstone weapon, it's overly complicated but effective.

lord_khaine
2017-08-05, 04:09 PM
Well then you're in luck, because there are lots of great fiends that can be made quite playable with the right adjustments (usually, LA needs to be dropped a point or two).

Going by the Book of Vile Darkness, Fiendish Codexes, Fiend Folio, and Monster Manuals, the following are at least 10 HD, Large or larger, winged, and either devil or demon:
Balor (Large, 20 HD, CR 20, LA --, MM1)
Horned devil (Large, 15 HD, CR 16, LA --, MM1)
Klurichir (Huge, 20 HD, CR 25, LA not listed, FF)
Malebranche (Huge, 16 HD, CR 14, LA not listed, FC2)
Nalfeshnee (Huge, 14 HD, CR 14, LA --, MM1)
Paeliryon (Large, 18 HD, CR 18, LA not listed, FC2)
Pit fiend (Large, 18 HD, CR 20, LA --, MM1)
Sorrowsworn demon (large, 18 HD, CR 17, LA --, MM3)
Vrock (Large, 10 HD, CR 9, LA +8, MM1)
Xerfilstyx (Large, 15 HD, CR 15, LA not listed, FC2)

I'd suggest putting together a great monster class, and adding a few levels of initiator on top. With the right feat selection, that should keep you relevant. Higher-levelled fiends often have SLAs that provide practical tools, like true seeing.

I second this suggestion. At the level your playing at it should not unbalance things to much if your picking up a demon or a devil. Likely the biggest issue will be if there is another melee char in the party. Because one of these demons can easily overshadow those characters with a few levels in Warblade.

barakaka
2017-08-06, 11:12 PM
I'd say just go Ogre/Half-fiend/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior). You won't be able to go all the way in the class, but you'll deal boatloads of damage and the low hit dice doesn't matter that much when you can't die while frenzied. Take the Mage Slayer line of feats if you want to have a ghost of a chance against mages. Find a way to fly or get air walking.

Increase your will save because you will likely kill friends on a failed save.

atemu1234
2017-08-07, 11:38 AM
You will not make a "viable" build with an ECL 10 race, especially a race as suboptimal as Ogre Half-Fiend.

Use the Half-Ogre race in Races of Destiny, at +2 LA and no racial HD it's miles ahead of Ogre. Buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) if possible, that rule is found in Unearthed Arcana. A +2 LA costs 16,000 xp to completely negate, which puts you behind by less than a full level's worth of XP compared to a 20th level character. If done during play, you would have gained more xp per encounter after buying off the first point until you caught up to everyone else.

Only take additional level adjustment if you can have it completely bought off by 20th level. This generally means gradually gaining a template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) and buying off each point of LA before gaining the next one. For example, you would buy off Half-Ogre at your 6th and 9th class levels respectively, spend your next level on the first point of Half-Dragon, but that off at your 12th class level, spend your next level on the second point of Half-Dragon, buy that off at your 15th class level, spend your next level on the third point of Half-Dragon, and buy that off at your 18th class level. This puts you 61,000 xp behind, or at least 16th level, so four levels behind. You'll still have gained just as much xp as everyone else during your career, so you should still have ECL 20 character wealth.

If you really want to use Half-Fiend, then use the Half-Goristro variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) (+8 Str, +8 Con, +5 natural armor, two slams that add 1.5x Str to damage, a size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), etc.) if you can gradually gain it, and apply it to a +1 or +0 LA race such as Goliath in Races of Stone. This ends up only 45,000 xp behind, or at least level 17 and half way to 18th.

Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) if possible, which gives you a 10% increase to all current and future xp gained. So a 20th level character would have accumulated 190,000 xp, so you have an additional 19,000 xp. The above Goliath Half-Goristro with Item Familiar would only be down by 26,000 xp compared to a 20th level party, so you would be at 18th level and more than half way to 19th level, or possibly even 19th level depending on the party's total starting xp.


However, none of that matters if you're not allowed to use a decent melee class. I'd recommend the following build:

Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, using the Dungeoncrasher variant in Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, and the Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features. You'll need the feat Knock Back in Races of Stone, and ideally you would also have Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) from Deities and Demigods along with Combat Reflexes and hopefully Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain. Furthermore, you'll want (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery in PH2, so at 20th level you can use your Fighter 10 bonus feat to take Weapon Supremacy in PH2. You'll also want the feat Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark, and the Fearsome armor property in that same book (which is more recent than the one in Magic Item Compendium and thus the current valid version). Maneuvers must include Iron Heart Surge.


Even after all that, and especially considering you're not guaranteed to be able to use that entire list, you're probably better off just making a Human or Gnome Druid 20. Even if you only use the core rulebooks, a Druid 20 with no level adjustment is a more powerful melee combatant than any non-cheese mix of level-adjusted race and mundane classes.

This advice is sound. Though a half-minotaur human who is also half-goristo nets you a bigger bonus.

xyamius
2017-08-10, 03:07 AM
Might suggest War Hulk also from Miniatures Handbook page 22 since your looking at a large + race it gets a bunch of nice add on's for a solid damage dealing melee fighter it should work out well. Down side no + to bab but you get +2 to strength at each level which adds to both attack and damage. I wouldn't suggest more than 4 levels of it or you will fail to hit the +16 bab for a solid fighter but it would give +8 to strength and allow sweeping attacks against 3 adjacent targets that are next to each other and the ability to do it as a standard action.

RoboEmperor
2017-08-10, 03:21 AM
FYI you can get the half-fiend template for "free".

At level 20, get someone to cast Nar Fiend Bond on you, and you gain the half-fiend template immediately. It'll take you forever to get your next level but if your campaign ends at level 20 there's no downside other than having to wait until level 20 to get the template.