PDA

View Full Version : The Power of Magic



Krellen
2007-08-09, 01:31 PM
We all know magic is unbalanced compared to non-magic users. But where's the line? When does magic become the ultimate power, where no other methods need apply? 9th level? 8th? 7th?

At what point do the primary casters' spell lists begin to exceed and supercede entire classes?

MrNexx
2007-08-09, 02:22 PM
Generally, I find that once you get 5th level spells, spellcasters get extremely powerful. 4th level spells, they're pretty nasty.

Fixer
2007-08-09, 02:31 PM
Entirely dependent on the player.

I have seen wizards played by... well... people who I would normally consider very intelligent. Unfortunately, they were not terribly creative and tended to be very literal in their application of magic. They would see illusions as wastes and always go for damage and defense.

It really doesn't matter as to the level of the character. A 1st level wizard with some illusion spells can be downright dangerous in the hands of a creative player.


Usually, once a wizard gets invisibility the rogue is no longer in charge of recon, especially once Fly comes into the picture. Knock for those pesky locks and such. Clerics get silence and find traps.

So, 3rd level is where some non-caster classes can be sidelined but not eliminated.

Aquillion
2007-08-09, 03:01 PM
I think the general guideline is:

They're somewhat low powered up through second level spells, although they can still contribute, certainly, if they're smart at using them.

There's a dramatic power-boost when you hit third level spells, at least for arcane casters, but they're still not overwhelming most of the time... a fifth-level wizard can protect themselves pretty well with fly and wind wall, can dramatically boost fighter-types with haste, has decent easy-to-use multi-target save-or-sucks in Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber, and Slow. Plus, there are several other neat things I forgot to mention. They're still not totally overwhelming, but a well-used Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber, or Slow can basically resolve a CR-appropriate encounter if the enemies roll bad saves.

If you're asking when they make everyone obsolete, though... really, spellcaster vs. skillmonkey takes a long time to resolve. Sure, spellcasters get Knock, but let's face it: Doors can be opened with boots 90% of the time anyway. That's not the big skill-monkey thing.

Scouting, detecting imminent threats, and dealing with social situations, though, involves a lot more effort for spells to manage completely. Picture this: The players are lead into an ambush by their guide. Pretty common situation, overall; players blunder into ambushes all the time. Yes, wizards get Prying Eyes, but those have disadvantages: Their spot modifier has a cap, and will probably always be lower than a rogue with a positive ability mod and maxed spot. They have to return to you to replay what they saw, they don't get to make listen checks at all, and their instructions have to be very simple. They could substitute for a skillmonkey if you don't have one or yours is out of commission, sure, but they hardly make them obsolete. The flying invisible wizard won't necessarily help, since a wizard probably doesn't have a great spot check.

Foresight, the commonly-cited spell in this regard, is actually much worse than prying eyes for this purpose... it warns you only of "impending" danger. Compare it to the rogue with the relevent skills maxed: The rogue would get a Sense Motive check to catch the guide (thus avoiding the ambush completely), plus spot and listen checks to avoid walking into it. Foresight, by comparison, is going to tell you something's wrong just before the ambushers leap out at you... certainly better than nothing, and it'll let you avoid getting catastrophically caught flat-footed, but you'll probably still be in an unfavorable position.

With traps, Foresight might be able to save you, but, in general, you're going to have to waste other spells figuring out exactly what the trap is, how it works, and what to do to avoid it (just teleporting past often won't work--you don't know exactly where it is.) Prying Eyes doesn't help here most of the time, since it doesn't do Search. There are other nice spells, but they're usually the type that you cast after you know that there's a problem, and you're quite likely to reach the point where you're wasting three decently-levelled spells on a single trap (one you keep up for advance warning, one to figure out exactly what the trap is, and one to avoid/disarm it.) A rogue, by comparison, can scout ahead without too much worry, can search for traps as many times per day as they need to, and can usually deal with them once they're found.

More social situations can be even tricker to use magic in. Most of the "win friends and influence people" spells have severe limitations--there's a risk that the target could make their save (which could be catastrophic if you were using it on a major NPC), there's a risk that the spell could be detected or dispelled, there's durations to worry about (and what the target will think when the duration wears off), there's the problem of casting a spell without having nearby people catch on that something's wrong (need still + silent spell, usually)... the list goes on and on. By comparison, a diplomacy check? You make the roll, and if it doesn't work, you can usually just smile and shrug. Bluff checks can sometimes be more embarrassing, but they tend to be far less catastrophic than, say, having the royal wizard catch you trying to fling a Charm Person spell at the king.

Skill-monkey types aren't overwhelmingly powerful, but I don't think they're ever totally obsolete, either, at least not when played well.

Krellen
2007-08-09, 03:13 PM
Skill-monkey types aren't overwhelmingly powerful, but I don't think they're ever totally obsolete, either, at least not when played well.
That's pretty much true, because even when spells can duplicate skill use, skill use doesn't expend resources; spell casting does - thus it is typically cheaper to have a rogue along than rely on the wizard to overcome all those doors, traps and social situations.

But what about meat-shields? When have the offensive, defensive and debilitating abilities of wizards and clerics made the fighter and barbarian superfluous?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-09, 03:18 PM
The druid replaces the fighter and barbarian at level 6, when he gets Wild Shape.

Generic PC
2007-08-09, 03:26 PM
Can Bard count? Bard eliminates any need for a skill monkey to have Social skills pretty quick.Charm Person level 1. Disguise Self level 1. Detect Thoughts, Alter Self, Suggestion Level 2. Glibness Level 3... (spell Level, of course) ANd, they Have social Skills too.

MrNexx
2007-08-09, 03:35 PM
Can Bard count? Bard eliminates any need for a skill monkey to have Social skills pretty quick.Charm Person level 1. Disguise Self level 1. Detect Thoughts, Alter Self, Suggestion Level 2. Glibness Level 3... (spell Level, of course) ANd, they Have social Skills too.

The problem with bards, for the most part, they aren't full casters and gain spells slowly... by the time they're casting useful spells, others have monstrous spells.

Ivellios
2007-08-09, 03:36 PM
You can't replace meat sheilds.
A spell caster can do plenty, and can in alot of cases kill all opponents single handedly in an encounter. But the meat sheild is never obsolete because they draw fire. if an enemy spell caster or archer has a barbarian in their face, then they will have a hard time attacking wizards/sorcerers that are staying back and casting spells. If the meat sheild wasn't there, then the spell caster would have a hard time surviving for the few rounds required to take on a room of enemies.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-09, 03:40 PM
You can't replace meat sheilds.
A spell caster can do plenty, and can in alot of cases kill all opponents single handedly in an encounter. But the meat sheild is never obsolete because they draw fire. if an enemy spell caster or archer has a barbarian in their face, then they will have a hard time attacking wizards/sorcerers that are staying back and casting spells. If the meat sheild wasn't there, then the spell caster would have a hard time surviving for the few rounds required to take on a room of enemies.

Aside from the Knight, no "meatshield" has a way to ensure that they remain the target instead of the casters, which means that they're not very good at their jobs unless the DM plays your opponents like morons.

Think about it this way: you're fighting a party, right? You're the bad guys. Are you going to target the tough guy with the sword, or the weak guy who can blow you all up with his brain?

Lapak
2007-08-09, 03:44 PM
And aside from that, anything meatshieldish that a fighter can do a Wildshaped Druid can do - and with Natural Spell, he can cast spells while doing it.

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-09, 03:45 PM
The druid replaces the fighter and barbarian at level 6, when he gets Wild Shape.

I wouldn't go quite that far. The druid certainly can compete with the fighter and barbarian, but he'll generally have a lower striking and damage output than the "brute squad" team members. The Druid is limited to medium sized animals until 8th level. Even then, most barbarians in a rage are going to hit more often and hit harder than a wildshaped druid.

I think that it's around 11th level that the warriors of the party really start to feel like they're only around to stand watch over sleeping/resting spellcasters. Until then, the warriors still have some satisfaction that while the caster can solve most problems once or twice per day, the warriors can swing their weapons for as long as they have hit points. Around 11th level, the casters have several 5th level spells and (for non-sorcerers) a 6th level spell or two. At that point, casters don't run out of spells except in crazy circumstances where they've had four or more encounters in a single day.

PaladinBoy
2007-08-09, 04:04 PM
I'd have to say.......

Never.

Even if your wizard is neutralizing enemies left and right with magic, someone's got to clean up the weakened enemies. This is something which a fighter with a sword can do an infinite number of times, whereas even a wildshaped druid has limits on his power. And as for clerics, those buffs can be dispelled, and if they are, then you're most likely done for the day. Admittedly, those limits aren't likely to be a problem, but I can think of situations that would run a druid out of uses. Also, something as simple as standing (or flying) in between a wizard and the enemies can prevent charge attacks which could pose a problem to the squishy wizard. It'll only work for one round, but if a high level wizard can't use that round to get away, then something's very wrong. Finally, wizards and all other prepared casters have to pick and choose what they can do. If they pick wrong, then the consequences range from annoying to catastrophic.

tainsouvra
2007-08-09, 04:12 PM
At that point, casters don't run out of spells except in crazy circumstances where they've had four or more encounters in a single day. I believe 4 encounters in a single day is the baseline the game was built around, actually.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-09, 04:15 PM
Wildshaped druid has limits? At 1 hr/level, an 6'th level druid can wildshape 12 hrs/day, which is all of walking time, and more. At 7'th level, 21 hrs/day, enough to wildshape all but when sleeping. After that, it just gets bigger. Not to mention animal companion.

elliott20
2007-08-09, 04:26 PM
the problem is that there are too many things a full caster can do that can fundamentally change an aspect of the game in some way with little to no consequences.

Krellen
2007-08-09, 04:40 PM
Wild Shape isn't a spell. I'm wanting to look specifically at spell lists alone, and not at other class features. Well, okay, base attack bonuses and proficiencies count, since a Wizard buffed like a Cleric still doesn't replace a Fighter, but a buffed Cleric certainly does.

I'm wondering if there's some sort of consensus on when spell lists outstrip other characters, regardless of other class features.

Oh, and to this:

Even if your wizard is neutralizing enemies left and right with magic, someone's got to clean up the weakened enemies. This is something which a fighter with a sword can do an infinite number of times [...]
It's also something the Rogue does ten times better, especially if coup de grace is involved (but even without, the Rogue and Cleric can mop up far easier than a Fighter and Barbarian well, thanks to the Rogue's Sneak Attack.)

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 04:42 PM
I wouldn't go quite that far. The druid certainly can compete with the fighter and barbarian, but he'll generally have a lower striking and damage output than the "brute squad" team members. The Druid is limited to medium sized animals until 8th level. Even then, most barbarians in a rage are going to hit more often and hit harder than a wildshaped druid.
Except the Druid buffs. And, uh, the Druid isn't just a bear, the Druid is two bears. Three, if he summons another.

Yeah, I think the druid's gonna do juuuuuust fine.

As an added point of hilarity, the Druid's better than most melee types at level 1, too--because a war-trained Riding Dog with barding has two hit dice rather than just one, Trip, and a better AC than the fighter or barbarian's gonna have.

Falrin
2007-08-09, 04:43 PM
I'll have a go at the wizard:


Spell LvL:

1:
Weak. Low hp, AC & BaB. Only so few spells/ day. These 2 spells can shape an encounter (colour spray/enfeeblement/enlarge person?) but here the melee guys still wade through.

2:
A bit more room, but same negs apply. The spells/day have increased, 1st LvL spells can still shape an encounter, 2nd LvLs like Glitterdust or Web have a huge effect. Even Bull's Str gets you going.
But still: to litlle spells to protect you weak self & own the battlefield.

3:
Here we get the first big bangs. Heroism immensly boosts your (party's) effectiveness, fly makes you mostly untouchable and haste/slow makes the 'Boss Batlle' a lot easier.
We see an improvement here. The caster becomes a valuable asset to the party and can increase effectiveness greatly, but still lacks the spells for a 24 buff/protection/continous casting. You start to reach the melee characters, but only for 1 or 2 encounters.

4:
Black tentacles, Solid Fog, confusion! and enervation. These spells in combination with your increasing amount of spells & duration tips you over the melee characters. 1 confusion, 1 slow, 1 haste & 1 glitterdust can handle the typical 4 encounters leaving enough room to play with your other spells.
Here's the first time you start dropping the primary meatshields, but running out of spells is still a major problem. Unless of course you study rope trick with it's now 8 hours duration.

5:

First combo's start popping up. A Cloudkill &(Grease/web/solid fog) can degenerate a TPK in a cakewalk. Dominate Person gives you an extra Party Member and balefull polymorph is an instant kill.
Even more optimized melee classes start biting the dust as your spellpool gets big enough to keep em going all day long.

6:

Acid fog & Contigency set you of on your way to batman. Acid fog + Web/Stone wall kills the first bunch of enemies you see, contigency takes care of those you don't see.

7:

Up and away. Finger of death kills of that nasty caster while you metamagiced (quicken/twin ray) spells blast away at the rest.


8:

Mindblank, Moment of Prescience, Extended Medium LvLs, Quickened Lower LvLs: You're almost untouchable by now, keep yourself fully buffed & prepared to retreat back with that greater teleport.

9:

Timestop, Dominate Monster & Wish shine here. Meatshield? What Meatshield?


Note: I did not include the 3d6 dex damage spell or the polymorph route.

The point is simple: You start leaving melee behind at LvL 7, you leave optimized melee behind at LvL 9 and we're not talking about an optimized caster here.

Generaly the same can be said for Clerics & Druids, but they're better allround.

First LvL Clerics get armour & hp, First LvL Druids get a riding dog/wolf companion that can compete with the fighter. At LvL 5 they compete with the fighter themselves. At LvL 12 they turn into a dire bear and poo on the fighter.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-09, 04:48 PM
Tactics combined with ToB can be more powerful than any magic. They have no daily limit, they give you bonus XP and they are generally more fun.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 04:50 PM
Tactics combined with ToB can be more powerful than any magic.

...yes. Tactics combined with ToB end a fight against a group of CR-appropriate enemies in a single round, turn you into any monster and give you its special abilities, or call in an arbitrarily high number of Titans to curb-stomp your enemy.
Genius.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-09, 04:55 PM
Further, ToB's maneuvers (with a few exceptions) are not usable outside of combat. Spells can be used any time.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-09, 04:55 PM
Why be a monster when you can overpower it. Plus tactics are much more fun. E.G. The fighter (buffed up by the bard) engages the enemy when the rogue flanks the enemy and sneak attacks him whilst the the Ranger fires down on to him VS The Wizard steps out and blows the guy away in 1 second withsome ridiculously powerful spell.

Plus if a group of fighter got the drop on the Wizards then they would win since every spell would provoke an attack of oppurtunity and the Wizards probably wouldn't pass their concentration checks.

Magic is helpful in a lot of situations though but I prefer tactics in combat.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 04:58 PM
Why be a monster when you can overpower it.
Because being a monster gives you a ridiculous amount of bonuses and generally is more powerful than anything ToB's got?


Plus tactics are much more fun. E.G. The fighter (buffed up by the bard) engages the enemy when the rogue flanks the enemy and sneak attacks him whilst the the Ranger fires down on to him VS The Wizard steps out and blows the guy away in 1 second withsome ridiculously powerful spell.
Wow, that's not personal preference at all. Good luck flanking a dragon, by the way.
And I see we've moved from "more effective" to "but it's FUN!" There's nothing wrong with "it's fun", but why the hell are you using it to defend statements about POWER?



That's not true, Fax--you can Rabid Wolf Strike whenever you freaking feel like it. It's just not very HELPFUL when you're not trying to tear someone's throat out.
There are a number of really, really useful out-of-combat maneuevers, too, like the Shadow Jaunt line, the Mountain Hammer line, and so on.

Krellen
2007-08-09, 05:01 PM
5: First combo's start popping up.
What if this was the top casting tier (ie, there were no 6th-9th level spells)? Would casters and melee be more balanced?

And if you did that, would it be better to leave the progression as it is, but cap spells at 5th level, or to change the progression so the "ultimate" level - 5th - came at later levels as 9th level spells currently do?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-09, 05:06 PM
That's not true, Fax--you can Rabid Wolf Strike whenever you freaking feel like it. It's just not very HELPFUL when you're not trying to tear someone's throw it.
There are a number of really, really useful out-of-combat maneuevers, too, like the Shadow Jaunt line, the Mountain Hammer line, and so on.

Right. I meant most aren't useful outside of combat.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 05:09 PM
Right. I meant most aren't useful outside of combat.

Yeah, sure. That's what the 4+INT SP with good skill lists are for.

13_CBS
2007-08-09, 05:15 PM
Of course, there's always the flavor probelm.

On one hand, there's the game balance issue. It's not fair for melee characters to be grossly overpowered by casters anytime in the game, and vice versa.

On the other, it also kinda makes sense that someone who can "tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down" can utterly destroy muscular people who run around hitting things with big metal objects.

blue_fenix
2007-08-09, 05:24 PM
Plus if a group of fighter got the drop on the Wizards then they would win since every spell would provoke an attack of oppurtunity and the Wizards probably wouldn't pass their concentration checks.


Just correcting a misconception here - Casting does not provoke an AoO if you cast defensively, and the concentration check for that is easy to make (dc 15 + spell level, I think, so by level 17 with max ranks in concentration and a con mod of +0 you can never fail it.)

The thing that kills casters who don't have foresight+celerity ready is ambushes by pretty much anything. Particularly grapplers, but anything with a decent damage output can usually one-shot most wizards and sorcerers.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 05:29 PM
Since you edited stuff in...


Why be a monster when you can overpower it. Plus tactics are much more fun. E.G. The fighter (buffed up by the bard) engages the enemy when the rogue flanks the enemy and sneak attacks him whilst the the Ranger fires down on to him VS The Wizard steps out and blows the guy away in 1 second withsome ridiculously powerful spell.
And oh, yeah--that's not tactics. That's "flanking and everybody attack". Tactics would be, say, a bull-rushing character shoving opponents back and forth through an AoO-based character's threatened area.


Plus if a group of fighter got the drop on the Wizards then they would win since every spell would provoke an attack of oppurtunity and the Wizards probably wouldn't pass their concentration checks.
Casting Defensively. Look it up. Also, quickened spells. Plus, how are you going to get the drop on a wizard, who's flying all day, has a familiar for double checks (and the familiar may well have, say, Spot)... when you're fighters in heavy armor with no stealth skills?


Magic is helpful in a lot of situations though but I prefer tactics in combat.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Magic is far more tactical than what you've been describing. Solid Fog, for example, is a tactical spell. Planning spell selection and determining what to use is tactical. "Let's flank him and all attack him!" isn't tactical, it's typical adventuring-party brute force.
And, oh yeah, magic is far more helpful in combat, too.


And blue, the ambush has to one-shot the caster. That's really not as easy as you'd think. Casters *do* plan for grapples, of course.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-09, 05:29 PM
At high levels, everyone dies to ambushes, especially if the attacking side has all their buffs up and the defending side does not.

Of course, the people who can cast Greater Scrying and Teleport Without Error are slightly better at ambushing people than are monsters who just sit behind a tree and hope somebody dumb walks by.

Saph
2007-08-09, 05:30 PM
It's a gradual curve. I don't think you can point to any one point where magic becomes the be-all and end-all, because even at quite high levels it's often more convenient to do something without using a spell.

I don't think magic makes everything else completely obsolete until level 15-17 or so, but you can substitute it for a lot of things from levels 5-14.

- Saph

Reel On, Love
2007-08-09, 05:39 PM
At high levels, everyone dies to ambushes, especially if the attacking side has all their buffs up and the defending side does not.

Of course, the people who can cast Greater Scrying and Teleport Without Error are slightly better at ambushing people than are monsters who just sit behind a tree and hope somebody dumb walks by.

Scrying.

Rod-maximized Time Stop.
Teleport over.
Lay down some spells that will make them explode.
Teleport out, before the time stop ends.

They will explode, and won't even know why.

The_Werebear
2007-08-09, 05:47 PM
Fifth level, when they get third level spells. The Caster becomes the reason the party wins all the time.

Dispel Magic
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Stinking Cloud
Heroism
Hold Person
Suggestion
Wind Wall
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Blink
Fly
Haste
Greater Magic Weapon (Low Wealth Campaigns)
Slow

Third Level Spells are filled with things that will be in use all the way to epic levels.

lord_khaine
2007-08-09, 07:03 PM
nahh 3rd lv is just where the things start to become fun for the casters, in our gaming group we usualy say its when you get lv 4 spells the Real fun starts, and at lv 9 you have enough of those spells to get by all day.

Aquillion
2007-08-09, 07:33 PM
Can Bard count? Bard eliminates any need for a skill monkey to have Social skills pretty quick.Charm Person level 1. Disguise Self level 1. Detect Thoughts, Alter Self, Suggestion Level 2. Glibness Level 3... (spell Level, of course) ANd, they Have social Skills too.Bards are really more skill-monkeys with a few spells to fall back on, though. They don't get enough spells known (or have a broad enough spell list) to rely on spells too heavily or to cover all bases, while they get a ton of skill points and are likely to have 18 cha. Like I noted above, there are issues with relying exclusively on magic for social interaction... the victim might save, which means they'll likely figure out what you just tried to do. A failed Charm attempt can easily dump you straight into combat even against previously non-hostile opponents, while a failed Diplomacy attempt doesn't usually risk nearly so much. Spells tend to wear off eventually, too... they're not the best things to use if you expect to be coming back to the same town regularly, or making it your base of operations.

On top of that, many of the key social-influence spells work best when combined with max diplomacy / bluff. (Charm Person, say; you can make someone friendly, then bluff them into doing things beyond even what Charm Person would otherwise do.)

D&D diplomacy is pretty badly-defined and broken in a lot of ways, but the way it interacts with magic is one of the few things they more or less got right... magic can help you win friends and influence people, but it doesn't really do so well at substituting for social skills (no more than a giant battleaxe, anyway.)


At high levels, everyone dies to ambushes, especially if the attacking side has all their buffs up and the defending side does not.Yes, but maxed spot and listen checks is really the best defense against them, plus maxed sense motive for ambushes with a social component (spotting the nervous innkeeper's daughter at the inn where they're planning to attack you in your sleep, say, or catching the treacherous guide.)

Prying Eyes helps considerably, but if your would-be ambushers are hiding (which is sort of a given in most ambushes), it's generally not going to be as effective as a rogue of the same level. It won't catch auditory clues, and its limited to exactly what you instruct the eyes to do (in 25 words or less), so you'd better hope you worded it right.


Scrying.

Rod-maximized Time Stop.
Teleport over.
Lay down some spells that will make them explode.
Teleport out, before the time stop ends.

They will explode, and won't even know why.The problem is that (apart from Prying Eyes and Foresight) scrying requires that you know what you're scrying for in advance. If you already know to look for an ambush, it isn't much of an ambush anyway, is it? Prying Eyes, as I noted above, is good but not a full substitute for a rogue; Foresight, while it will keep you from being flat-footed, is not as timely as a skill monkey--it generally won't warn you until you've already more or less walked into the ambush anyway and they're about to be attacked.

I've been assuming no Greater Celerity until now, since it is somewhat absurd... but even Greater Celerity is really a less ideal solution than just having your rogue hiss "Hey, I think I spot an ambush a few hundred feet down the road." That one spot check can turn an encounter that would have cost you significant amounts of resources (like, say, Greater Celerity and whatever spells you would've dropped along with it) into a cakewalk that might not cost you any spells at all.

Damionte
2007-08-09, 09:06 PM
The meat shield is the easiest to replace, because ti doesnt' take anythign special to be a meat shield. Druids, cleric and Wizards all get the summun line of spells, which can summun you up a small horde of meat shields for just 1 round of action.

Falrin
2007-08-10, 08:01 AM
Yes: A good way to balance caster is to limit there highest spells.

Bump them up to 1d6, some extra skills & maybe even 3/4 BaB.
Proficient with some light armour & Simple weapons.

Now give them all the Bards Progression.

This counts both for divine as arcane.

Of course your monsters CR will be way of , but hey.

Bump up Casts/day for full casters, Spells know for Spontanious and maybe start at LvL 2 in the progression (for prepared only?)

That would seem fine to me. You only need a way to goce them a boost at low LvLs and I think the whole packages scales a lot better.

In this case Damage spells should be updated a litlle.

elliott20
2007-08-10, 08:56 AM
Of course, there's always the flavor probelm.

On one hand, there's the game balance issue. It's not fair for melee characters to be grossly overpowered by casters anytime in the game, and vice versa.

On the other, it also kinda makes sense that someone who can "tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down" can utterly destroy muscular people who run around hitting things with big metal objects.
I actually agree with this too. We are, after all, talking about someone who manipulates the cosmos for a living. Certainly they should be able to do some pretty ridiculously powerful stuff.

But what breaks it for me is how easy/cheap it is. There is no real significant price that you'd have to pay to use time stop other than sleep. Sure, a fighter can swing a sword all day with his BAB that's twice as good as a wizzies, but he only recovers a certain amount of hitpoints per day of rest. It's not like he can just go to sleep, wakeup the next day, and be ready to go for another full day of hurt right away. (At least, not without the party healer patching him up first)

So, independant of other influences, full casters at higher levels can do more powerful stuff more frequently with far less dependancy on other people.

That strikes me as not just unbalanced, but from a mechanics perspective, just unfair. At least in 2E a wizard had to gain more XP for that power.

To me, I think wizards SHOULD be able to destroys an entire cities, stop time, or do some other really crazy stuff. I just don't think they should be doing this recklessly everyday. At that level, magic is treated so flippantly that it's not really treasured or preserved. Rather, it's standard operating procedure.

To use an analogy, full casters at higher levels vs. any non-full caster is like pitting a guy with a REALLY big and sharp knife against a guy on a jeep with a mounted cannon and a supply line behind it continuously feeding it ammo and gas. If it runs out, it can just run away, refuel, and come back in a day to finish what he started.

MrNexx
2007-08-10, 11:55 AM
Yes: A good way to balance caster is to limit there highest spells.

Bump them up to 1d6, some extra skills & maybe even 3/4 BaB.
Proficient with some light armour & Simple weapons.

Now give them all the Bards Progression.

This counts both for divine as arcane.


Glad to see this idea still floats around.

Who aside from bards and psychic warriors USES the bard progression?

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-10, 12:32 PM
So, independant of other influences, full casters at higher levels can do more powerful stuff more frequently with far less dependancy on other people.

This is a very good point. Has anyone done any experimentation with increasing the cost of casting these powerful spells?

I'm thinking of things like expending a gem stone of a few thousand gold value for teleporting, Sacrifice the skull of a lich to use time stop, perhaps cause an experience penalty for egregious abuses of time/space besides just Wish and a handful of others.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-10, 12:35 PM
The problem there is that you run into the "let's go on a quest so I can cast my magic" issue. Denying a character their class features based on circumstances outside of their control is lame. Altering a character's class features prior to their inception is different: at least then you know what you're getting in to. I'd certainly play a wizard with the bard's casting curve, but I wouldn't play one where I had to quest to get my material components.