[3.5e] Help building a barony as a player?

[DnDGuyDude]

Hey guys, I would really appreciate your help on the subject in the title.

I am currently playing in a 3.5e campaign with a group of friends, and recently after we have finally defeated the overarching BBEG, we have received lands from the crown.
Now that I have land, I want to develop it into a proper barony and become a proper lord. I would greatly appreciate if anyone could point me towards any books or official material that I can use as a guideline\point-of-reference for this undertaking, like a book that lists types of roads, walls, etc. necessary for a lord's estate including prices. It doesn't have to necessarily be 3.5e, as the DM approved of me using Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (3e) as a guideline for building the manor itself, but it is preferable.

I would also love to discuss ideas of how to proceed with my endeavor and what to do to make it the best barony in all the land with anyone who's also into this kind of thing.

I will begin by describing the lay of the land, and then what I've currently thought of and planned:

We have been given lands in a very fertile, mostly flat area, with a 10m-wide river flowing east through the lower third of the territory, separating it in two, whereas I control a space containing 3 small farming villages north of the river with plenty of empty land, a bridge over the river, and a little bit of empty land south of river.
The first thing I've done after surveying my newly-acquired territory is meet with professionals to inquire about paving roads connecting the villages to each-other and to the bridge, and about building barges to allow trade through the river.
I was also thinking of building my keep in the empty land south of the river, since it is a rather small area and it's easier to defend, though on the one hand it might disconnect me from the villages, but on the other I don't have a better idea of what to do with that small plot.

Here's a list of ideas I had on what I should do that I quickly jotted down, subject to change of course:

1. Roads - I need to decide on the type of road that is optimal in terms of width and material proportional to the cost.
2. Barges - Need to decide materials for the docks, how many docks to make and how many barges each dock should be able to contain, depending on cost as well.
3. Keep - Size of the manor itself, what facilities and businesses it should contain, what type of defenses it should have.
4. Building barracks and setting up a guard - How many guards in the garrison, and what type of forces in my retinue.
5. Taxes - Need to decide on a fair percentage of taxes, and also how to collect and store it considering there's currently nothing but the villages themselves.
6. Chain of Command - I thought I should establish my rule through a chain of command to govern my land, thus: Myself, the Lord > My cohort, hand of the Baron > A mayor to govern the day-to-day business of the estate, mainly should I and/or my cohort be indisposed (such as off adventuring in exotic lands) > The Captain of the guard, who will assume control in times of emergency should all aforementioned persons be indisposed.
7. Council - I thought I should hire a few people to be my privy council to advise me, comprised of a Steward, A marshal (probably the captain of the guard), a chancellor for matters of bureaucracy and diplomacy, a spymaster and a court chaplain the administer my religion in my land.
8. Last but not least, I thought of setting up a toll booth by the bridge over the river, to bring in extra revenue from anyone who wished to cross the river, but that might hinder trade and anger the people.

I welcome any ideas anyone might have!

[Fuzzy McCoy]

The answer for 1-3 is it depends on your level. If you're high enough level for planar binding or charm monster, you want djinn, either ghaele eladrins or trumpet archons, and sun giants for free stone and wood. Djinn can create permanent plant matter - aka wooden beams/flooring/paneling/etc. The eladrins/archons are good for casting stone shape and stone metamorphosis, and wall of stone. Sun Giants get wall of stone as an at-will SLA (caster level 13). Thus you can have stone roads/bridges/keep for relatively inexpensive. As an aside, if you have access to this kind of magic, binding a lantern archon or two for lots of continual flame torches is a good idea.

If you're lower level the answer becomes much more dependent on price. You still want your keep built from stone, but perhaps other buildings can be built from wood. Docks should be built from stone if possible, but wood is likely to be cheaper. For roads, you can build them out of wood (expensive) or cobblestone (ridiculously expensive, most likely). The cheapest option is going to be dirt. Hardpacked dirt works as long as it's dry, and if your barony experiences a monsoon season and is dry the rest of the time, you'll have a period of little travel, but nothing major otherwise.

For guards, you want them to be able to handle what your most common threat is likely to be. So if you think most of the time you'll only be dealing with a small horde of orcs invading the land, maybe an ogre band, then you can have them be mounted infantry and be generic warriors. If a dragon, or an evil sorcerer shows up, your guard calls you in. On the other hand, if you get invaded by mad sorcerers and great wryms every other week, your guards need to be able to handle that, and should be significantly better paid, leveled, and equipped to deal with the increased threat. If you build your keep on the south of the river, this barracks should be on the north side to help protect your minions citizens better.

What buildings you want at your keep is up to you, but at a minimum I would say sleeping quarters for you and all members of your permanent staff, a kitchen big enough to feed them, food storage to last a while, stables, a barracks for a few troops, armory, and a bath or two. Not necessary but highly desirable would be offices for you and your staff. After that, a throne room and other meeting halls. After that, dungeons and ballrooms/party rooms. After that, whatever you want, really.

As for taxes, Chain of Command, and a ruling council - a lot of this can be abstracted away. The person running the show when you're not there would be your steward, and you want a good captain of your guard, but other than that, you don't have a lot of things you really need to get into. Work with your DM and see what suggestions they have.

[DnDGuyDude]

The answer for 1-3 is it depends on your level. If you're high enough level for planar binding or charm monster, you want djinn, either ghaele eladrins or trumpet archons, and sun giants for free stone and wood. Djinn can create permanent plant matter - aka wooden beams/flooring/paneling/etc. The eladrins/archons are good for casting stone shape and stone metamorphosis, and wall of stone. Sun Giants get wall of stone as an at-will SLA (caster level 13). Thus you can have stone roads/bridges/keep for relatively inexpensive. As an aside, if you have access to this kind of magic, binding a lantern archon or two for lots of continual flame torches is a good idea.

If you're lower level the answer becomes much more dependent on price. You still want your keep built from stone, but perhaps other buildings can be built from wood. Docks should be built from stone if possible, but wood is likely to be cheaper. For roads, you can build them out of wood (expensive) or cobblestone (ridiculously expensive, most likely). The cheapest option is going to be dirt. Hardpacked dirt works as long as it's dry, and if your barony experiences a monsoon season and is dry the rest of the time, you'll have a period of little travel, but nothing major otherwise.

For guards, you want them to be able to handle what your most common threat is likely to be. So if you think most of the time you'll only be dealing with a small horde of orcs invading the land, maybe an ogre band, then you can have them be mounted infantry and be generic warriors. If a dragon, or an evil sorcerer shows up, your guard calls you in. On the other hand, if you get invaded by mad sorcerers and great wryms every other week, your guards need to be able to handle that, and should be significantly better paid, leveled, and equipped to deal with the increased threat. If you build your keep on the south of the river, this barracks should be on the north side to help protect your minions citizens better.

What buildings you want at your keep is up to you, but at a minimum I would say sleeping quarters for you and all members of your permanent staff, a kitchen big enough to feed them, food storage to last a while, stables, a barracks for a few troops, armory, and a bath or two. Not necessary but highly desirable would be offices for you and your staff. After that, a throne room and other meeting halls. After that, dungeons and ballrooms/party rooms. After that, whatever you want, really.

As for taxes, Chain of Command, and a ruling council - a lot of this can be abstracted away. The person running the show when you're not there would be your steward, and you want a good captain of your guard, but other than that, you don't have a lot of things you really need to get into. Work with your DM and see what suggestions they have.

Thank you so much for the reply, I will take it to heart!
My character is level 15, but I am playing a crusader, so I don't really see how I can utilize other-planar beings.
Do you know of any books that might specify prices for land\village development, other than Stronghold Builder's Guidebook? It contains useful information for building the keep, but not much about the surrounding land.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Pathfinder has kingdom building rules in ultimate campaign. It could be helpful.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Are you building a castle? Or are you just building a keep? :smalltongue:

In DnD, with magic and dragons and such. It's actually much more practical to build bunkers, or keeps in pocket dimensions. But that doesn't really fit the heroic fantasy genre now does it?

Anyways. Your keep is where you live. It is part of your castle. Usually it's just a big tower. Before building your castle, you should hire some clerics or such to cast Move Earth to raise your flat building area to a more defensible hill. You can also do this to divert part of the river to surround the hill and make a moat.

Your keep should have nice bedrooms for you and your party, as well as a grand hall for meals and meetings. A kitchen would be nice too.

As for other buildings. you should have plenty of room to house troops and villagers (the castle will be where your defenseless villagers will run to if/when the orcs come-a-pillaging). Also you need large store rooms for food and supplies. Lastly, a basic smithy to repair armaments and servant quarters.


Pathfinder has kingdom building rules in ultimate campaign. It could be helpful.

Yeah, but it focuses more on the macro scale than having the "personal touch".

[Tipsy_Pooka]

"First-Party" Books... I definitely second Pathfinder's "Ultimate Campaign"... the DMG II also has some helpful information in it. Not sure how much mileage you'd get out of Cityscape (at this point). Probably my favorite book for this is "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe". It's third party, so obviously, get your DMs go-ahead. It pretty much covers everything you are trying to do. It also provides suggestions to **MOST** of the questions you have.

Chain of Command: Probably the most important person here should include the Seneschal. This is the guy, who acts in your stead, while you're running around doing normal PC things.

Guardsman numbers are pretty well established in the DMG (including militia). Figure 2-5% of the population as a "standing army" and ~20% as "it's about to hit the fan".

Taxes. Historically, the gentry taxed you for EVERYTHING they could get away with. For the purpose of simplicity, I recommend approximately 10% of income per person/week.

You shouldn't worry too much about building your keep separate from the villages. Keeps were traditionally built to take advantage of the greatest defensive position. Just don't be surprised when people start migrating towards your keep. Eventually it should become a small town in its own right.

Your other concerns:
1. Roads and Docks are pretty difficult to determine, depending on the mechanics your DM decides to use for construction/upkeep. For roads, I would say your main "highways" should fit a wagon going each direction.

8. Taxing the bridge is definitely a good move. While the peasants will complain... tolls are the best way to ensure the bridge stays maintained (unless you plan on paying upkeep out of your WBL). Key thing here... make sure your "tax-collectors" are reliable. Depending on your alignment, a little skimming is to be expected, just make sure it doesn't turn into outright extortion.

[Blackhawk748]

Im gonna leave this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6nq6nFaCWM)and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd4sMFfvnIk) here. Shad, as always, gives some fairly solid ideas to help people with castles. Also Bunkers may be great against DRAGONS and what not, but its not good for defending against typical armies, cuz then they'll just ignore you as you cant really fight back.

I second the Planar Binding tricks (get the party mage to help) and get a Lyre of Building, cuz that thing is amazing.

Edit: This one is also a solid vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6mGXwSk5x4&list=PLWklwxMTl4syenM-NN3NXjNW6DyT6bDMG&index=1)

[DnDGuyDude]

First of all, I would like to thank everyone that responded so far. Thank you very much for your insightful replies!


"First-Party" Books... I definitely second Pathfinder's "Ultimate Campaign"... the DMG II also has some helpful information in it. Not sure how much mileage you'd get out of Cityscape (at this point). Probably my favorite book for this is "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe". It's third party, so obviously, get your DMs go-ahead. It pretty much covers everything you are trying to do. It also provides suggestions to **MOST** of the questions you have.

Chain of Command: Probably the most important person here should include the Seneschal. This is the guy, who acts in your stead, while you're running around doing normal PC things.

Guardsman numbers are pretty well established in the DMG (including militia). Figure 2-5% of the population as a "standing army" and ~20% as "it's about to hit the fan".

Taxes. Historically, the gentry taxed you for EVERYTHING they could get away with. For the purpose of simplicity, I recommend approximately 10% of income per person/week.

You shouldn't worry too much about building your keep separate from the villages. Keeps were traditionally built to take advantage of the greatest defensive position. Just don't be surprised when people start migrating towards your keep. Eventually it should become a small town in its own right.

Your other concerns:
1. Roads and Docks are pretty difficult to determine, depending on the mechanics your DM decides to use for construction/upkeep. For roads, I would say your main "highways" should fit a wagon going each direction.

8. Taxing the bridge is definitely a good move. While the peasants will complain... tolls are the best way to ensure the bridge stays maintained (unless you plan on paying upkeep out of your WBL). Key thing here... make sure your "tax-collectors" are reliable. Depending on your alignment, a little skimming is to be expected, just make sure it doesn't turn into outright extortion.
Thank you, I would definitely check out those books!
I did think about making the main roads 2 wagons wide, for parallel travel, probably made of cobblestone or the likes, with packed-dirt roads for the smaller roads.
As for the taxes, that's a good point, I didn't think of the possibility of people pocketing some of it, do you have any idea how to efficiently prevent such a thing? I thought of perhaps making a census and calculating exactly how much I'm supposed to collect in taxes, and make the person manning the toll-booth at the bridge keep a registry of anyone that passes so I know how much he should've collected.


Im gonna leave and here. Shad, as always, gives some fairly solid ideas to help people with castles. Also Bunkers may be great against DRAGONS and what not, but its not good for defending against typical armies, cuz then they'll just ignore you as you cant really fight back.

I second the Planar Binding tricks (get the party mage to help) and get a Lyre of Building, cuz that thing is amazing.

Thank you, I will watch those videos.
And I did check out the Lyre of Building, it's a bit expensive but I might get that.


Are you building a castle? Or are you just building a keep? :smalltongue:

In DnD, with magic and dragons and such. It's actually much more practical to build bunkers, or keeps in pocket dimensions. But that doesn't really fit the heroic fantasy genre now does it?

Anyways. Your keep is where you live. It is part of your castle. Usually it's just a big tower. Before building your castle, you should hire some clerics or such to cast Move Earth to raise your flat building area to a more defensible hill. You can also do this to divert part of the river to surround the hill and make a moat.

Your keep should have nice bedrooms for you and your party, as well as a grand hall for meals and meetings. A kitchen would be nice too.

As for other buildings. you should have plenty of room to house troops and villagers (the castle will be where your defenseless villagers will run to if/when the orcs come-a-pillaging). Also you need large store rooms for food and supplies. Lastly, a basic smithy to repair armaments and servant quarters.



Yeah, but it focuses more on the macro scale than having the "personal touch".
Thank you for the ideas for the castle, they are very insightful!

[Tipsy_Pooka]

Thank you, I would definitely check out those books!
I did think about making the main roads 2 wagons wide, for parallel travel, probably made of cobblestone or the likes, with packed-dirt roads for the smaller roads.
As for the taxes, that's a good point, I didn't think of the possibility of people pocketing some of it, do you have any idea how to efficiently prevent such a thing? I thought of perhaps making a census and calculating exactly how much I'm supposed to collect in taxes, and make the person manning the toll-booth at the bridge keep a registry of anyone that passes so I know how much he should've collected.

If you're looking up ideas for roads and are really concerned about their construction, look at how the Romans built their roads.

A census is always a good idea, the best times would generally be around harvest. This was traditionally the most active time of the year for villages.

As for the corruption aspect, talk with your DM. It ALWAYS plays a factor when my PCs go down this road but YMMV. Mechanically, unless you're springing for Zone of Truth wands, making sure your Marshal has a solid ranks in Sense Motive would be your best bet. Then again.. nobody likes a micro-manager.



Thank you for the ideas for the castle, they are very insightful!

For building your keep.. decide if the primary purpose is "defense" or "luxury". Regardless, the "Cheap Keep" from the "Stronghold Builder's Guidebook" makes for a pretty good starting point. Your most important room should be the "Great Hall". This is where you'll entertain guests and listen to the peasants whining address the concerns of your people.

[Red Fel]

I've discussed this topic before. I'll post some quick self-quotes, because yes, I am that arrogant.


But if you're thinking of taking your humble keep and turning it into the ruling seat of a city-state, consider the following options.

1: Center of industry. As Shining Wrath suggests, becoming a center of craftsmanship is an excellent way to grow in financial and military power. Draw in craftsmen from across the world seeking to practice with the masters and sell on your highly acclaimed crafting name.

Pro: It's an excellent source of wealth. Those Masterwork tools and weapons have to come from someplace; why not from your workmen? And as a bonus, with a proper crafting system in place, you can guarantee your guardsmen will be well-equipped to withstand any assault.

Con: It's not self-sufficient. Although you will have excellent goods, you will be dependent upon merchants to transport them, and other producers to provide you with raw materials. You will also need to trade in agriculture, as you may not necessarily produce enough of your own. Further, becoming established as a center of craft takes time and reputation; one of the first requirements is that either one of your party be an exceptional craftsman, or that you draw the attention of someone who is, and is willing to set up shop in your lands.

2: Center of agriculture. This is an easy one - set up the keep for defense and rule, and dedicate the surrounding lands to farms, lumber, and other natural resources.

Pro: This is the heart of being self-sufficient. You produce enough food to survive on your own, and can harvest the natural resources necessary to trade with others or produce your own rudimentary defenses.

Con: You are a target. Most of your profit-generating systems (e.g. farms, vineyards, trees) are outside of your walls, and easily targeted and raided. You will not be as easily defended as the nation that builds its own weapons or trains its own mages.

3: Center of learning. This is actually a surprisingly easy one for a team of adventurers to pull off. Note that "learning" isn't just limited to books; it can include academies for wizards, churches for clergy, schools of combat for fighters and archers... anything that can be taught. And adventurers have a lot of skills to teach...

Pro: Your guards will be the best trained. After all, they learned from you, and you're heroes. People will come from miles around, and pay tuition, to learn from you and your best students. And it's easy to set up - each of you trains one of your favorite NPC guards to be your "apprentice." Your mage leaves an extra spell library for others to study. You craft some training dummies. Your cleric builds a church and leaves a few prayerbooks. Whenever you come home, you can check on the progress of your apprentices and their students. See, easy!

Con: Your dependence on other economies is even worse than that of the center of industry. At least that place can make its own weapons! (Unless, of course, one of your programs is the "School of Weapon and Armor Smithing." Any of you have Craft Item skills?) Your city is entirely dependent on others, for trade, and your primary source of income will be the tuition of your students and the tax on your residents.

4: Center of trade. This is probably the hardest to pull off, but the most financially beneficial if you succeed. You don't have to have the best weapons, or the freshest turnips, or the loudest clergimen - you just have to have the safest, largest, and most attended marketplace. Once you reach a certain critical mass, traders will travel from all over the countryside to deal in your market - and, as landowner, you get a cut from every stall.

Pros: So much money! It's also surprisingly defensible, because - apart from monsters - nobody wants to attack the marketplace. The wealthy merchants are very well defended, and smart villains don't want to cut trade; they'd rather use it than lose it.

Cons: Preparation's a beast. You're some podunk little castle town, why would anyone go to you for trade, when there are already other, bigger cities with better-known markets to use? Unless you're on an established trade route, this isn't likely to be very successful.


Step one, rescue and influential and powerful NPC. One who is very Lawful, and who will honor that life-debt. Put him in charge of managing the castle and grounds so that you don't have to stick around to run affairs. The castle now runs in your absence.

Step two, bring in craftsmen. Smiths, engineers, architects, what-have-you. Bring them materials. Sell them your excess loot. Let them start crafting to their hearts' content. Within short order, you will have created a center of profitable craft and commerce. Your castle is now generating money for you. Further, these craftsmen will help to reinforce and improve the existing castle structure.

Step three, hire guards. Now that your castle is a center of commerce, it needs to be protected. Bonus points if your party beatstick opens a fighting school in the castle to train students (who may then become guards). Your castle and its money are now protected.

Step four, gather yeomen. Basically, grant arable neighboring lands to commoners, as well as the protection of your guards, in exchange for taxes of money and food. Your castle is now profitable, supplied, armed, and fed.

Step five, establish trade routes. You're adventurers, it's not hard to run back and forth along some roads murdering the crap out of bandits until people get the message to keep crime away. With trade routes open, people will flock to your now successful and well-protected marketplace to trade in crops, cattle, and crafts. People will also travel to your castle to enroll in your fighting school. Your castle is now a successful and powerful city-state.

Step six, make the fools pay. ... By which I mean profit.

... and world domination.

Here's one thing to keep in mind. You have received lands from the crown. However, unless you have received title from the crown (and if you are operating in your typical medieval fantasy archetype setting, you probably have), you are not a lord. Just a landowner. So possessing the land is only step one.

Step two, then, is taking those lands and making your ownership of them valuable to the crown. Generally, that means a combination of paying taxes to the crown in cash, offering supplies or goods to the crown, and having militia on hand to serve at the crown's convenience. Remember that the cost of knighthood - and land ownership that went with it - in medieval times was being a knight and serving in the crown's military. (Or buying your way out of direct service.) Becoming a baron, then, means proving that you, as owner of this land, can provide a continuous service to the crown that will span generations of descendants.

Because until the crown recognizes you as a titled lord, you're nothing but a landowning merchant or, at best, lesser noble.

[DnDGuyDude]

Thank you both for the reply!
I greatly appreciate all the contributions made in this thread, and will take everything to heart.
If anyone wants to contribute further, I am more than happy to read your thoughts!