Question on the Antipaladin's Fiendish Boon

[Madokar]

So I'm building an Antipaladin as the big bad for my first homebrew campaign. And I'm looking up how the Fiendish Boon works, and an idea flew through my head.

If the Antipaladin takes an Outsider (such as Succubus) as his Fiendish Boon, can he benefit from any enhancement said Outsider can normally bestow? (Such as a Succubus' Profane Gift)

[Footman]

Yes, you are right you can get a Profane Gift from your Succubus, you need to be at least a Lvl 13 Antipaladin to get a Succubus as a Compainion though.
Also i would really think over getting a Profane Gift from your Succubus, both of you are Servants of your Evil God, but your Succubus might have a hidden agenda.
You can do that, but it is kinda risky.

[Psyren]

Yes, you are right you can get a Profane Gift from your Succubus, you need to be at least a Lvl 13 Antipaladin to get a Succubus as a Compainion though.
Also i would really think over getting a Profane Gift from your Succubus, both of you are Servants of your Evil God, but your Succubus might have a hidden agenda.
You can do that, but it is kinda risky.

Eh, in most cases a level 13 PC is going to be more valuable to that god than a CR 7 succubus... while he's alive, anyway.

Of course, should the Antipaladin fail or even be about to fail his master, getting that gift ripped away at an inopportune moment could easily happen too. Evil isn't known for being forgiving.

[Madokar]

Yes, you are right you can get a Profane Gift from your Succubus, you need to be at least a Lvl 13 Antipaladin to get a Succubus as a Compainion though.
Also i would really think over getting a Profane Gift from your Succubus, both of you are Servants of your Evil God, but your Succubus might have a hidden agenda.
You can do that, but it is kinda risky.

I thought you could get a Succubus at lvl. 11. The Fiendish Boon equivalant of Summon Monster increases by step every two levels, and it starts off as Summon Monster III. By lvl. 7, it's SM IV. At lvl. 9, SM V. By lvl. 11 it's SM VI, which is when Succubus becomes an option.

Or am I missing something?

The Succubus granting the Profane Gift would be a way for their Demon Lord to keep the Antipaladin in check, though. Also, giving the Demon Lord's theme of Alchemy and Transformation (It's Haagenti, by the by), the Profane Gift could also grant the Antipaladin the Succubus' Change Shape ability. Which would come in extremely handy.

[Footman]

I thought you could get a Succubus at lvl. 11. The Fiendish Boon equivalant of Summon Monster increases by step every two levels, and it starts off as Summon Monster III. By lvl. 7, it's SM IV. At lvl. 9, SM V. By lvl. 11 it's SM VI, which is when Succubus becomes an option.

Or am I missing something?

The Succubus granting the Profane Gift would be a way for their Demon Lord to keep the Antipaladin in check, though. Also, giving the Demon Lord's theme of Alchemy and Transformation (It's Haagenti, by the by), the Profane Gift could also grant the Antipaladin the Succubus' Change Shape ability. Which would come in extremely handy.

Yep my bad its Lvl 11. I miscounted.

What i meant with risky, is more along the lines of the Succubus using her Suggestion SLA at a dramatically appropriate moment, when the your Actions are not 100% in line with that of you Patron. Or worse she could remove her Profane gift causing you to get a 2d6 Charisma Drain, which can be a huge hit to you, if used while you are in a though battle.

[Psyren]

I thought you could get a Succubus at lvl. 11. The Fiendish Boon equivalant of Summon Monster increases by step every two levels, and it starts off as Summon Monster III. By lvl. 7, it's SM IV. At lvl. 9, SM V. By lvl. 11 it's SM VI, which is when Succubus becomes an option.

Or am I missing something?

You're not, it's indeed 11, my bad.



The Succubus granting the Profane Gift would be a way for their Demon Lord to keep the Antipaladin in check, though. Also, giving the Demon Lord's theme of Alchemy and Transformation (It's Haagenti, by the by), the Profane Gift could also grant the Antipaladin the Succubus' Change Shape ability. Which would come in extremely handy.

Keep in mind those are Variant Gifts and so require GM approval. The base one is just the ability score boost.

[Madokar]

Eh, in most cases a level 13 PC is going to be more valuable to that god than a CR 7 succubus... while he's alive, anyway.

Of course, should the Antipaladin fail or even be about to fail his master, getting that gift ripped away at an inopportune moment could easily happen too. Evil isn't known for being forgiving.

That's my thought exactly. At first, the Antipaladin is a fine asset. But as the Campaign progresses, he becomes TOO powerful. Unintentionally, and he's still loyal to his Demon Lord despite his massive increase in power. But at the rate of progression the Antipaladin displays, he could eclipse the Demon Lord in power easily if he completes his transformation.

Ergo, the Profane Gift. Which keeps tabs on the Antipaladin, and can be used to severly cripple him at a later time. Just a way for the Demon Lord to keep control of the situation.

[Madokar]

You're not, it's indeed 11, my bad.



Keep in mind those are Variant Gifts and so require GM approval. The base one is just the ability score boost.


Yep my bad its Lvl 11. I miscounted.

What i meant with risky, is more along the lines of the Succubus using her Suggestion SLA at a dramatically appropriate moment, when the your Actions are not 100% in line with that of you Patron. Or worse she could remove her Profane gift causing you to get a 2d6 Charisma Drain, which can be a huge hit to you, if used while you are in a though battle.


I am the GM here. I'm not a player looking for input for my build, I'm double-checking the rules while I build my big bad for the campaign.

[Footman]

Don't get to Crazy there Demon Lord Power is far out of reach even for a powerfull Lvl 20 Antipaladin. Also if you REALLY piss of your Demon Lord, you Fall, say hello to the Warrior NPC Class.
EDIT:
Didn't see your double post there. Of course the Profane Gift is nice for a Demon Lord who likes to Mirco Manáge his antipaladin, without completly screwing him over. Just giving him a little warning who the Lord is which he serves.

[Madokar]

Don't get to Crazy there Demon Lord Power is far out of reach even for a powerfull Lvl 20 Antipaladin. Also if you REALLY piss of your Demon Lord, you Fall, say hello to the Warrior NPC Class.
EDIT:
Didn't see your double post there. Of course the Profane Gift is nice for a Demon Lord who likes to Mirco Manáge his antipaladin, without completly screwing him over. Just giving him a little warning who the Lord is which he serves.

The fun thing is that due to the Antipaladin's goals, he's submitting himself to the Rituals of Transformation. He is gradually turning himself into a full demon with each successful ritual. However, at the climax of the Third Ritual, something goes wrong. Or horribly right, for the Antipaladin.

Haagenti intended to have the Antipaladin transform into a Dretch, but instead of becoming a simple Half-Fiend at the end of the Third Ritual, he became a Half-Balor. Which is foreshadowing what he WILL become if he completes the Fourth and Final Ritual, a Balor with 20 levels of Antipaladin. And Haagenti CAN'T revoke his status as an Antipaladin, because the knowledge for the Rituals came straight from the Book of the Damned's Second Volume. As the transformation progresses, the Antipaladin unknowingly stopped getting his powers from Haagenti, and started getting them from the Abyss itself.

Naturally, Haagenti doesn't want to elect a more powerful Demon Lord (or perhaps a God, he will break the CR) into existence. Henceforth, the Profane Gift. Which is insurance to cripple this upstart at an opportune time. Like when a paladin is smiting him.

[Psyren]

But at the rate of progression the Antipaladin displays, he could eclipse the Demon Lord in power easily if he completes his transformation.

ahahahahahahaha

good one

[Madokar]

ahahahahahahaha

good one

Seriously. A Balor with 20 levels of Antipaladin should have a CR of 40. Demon Lords have CRs around 25-30. Cthulhu himself is CR 30.

[Psyren]

Demon Lords also have 9 levels of spellcasting though. 40 levels of Antipaladin isn't going to do much to keep up with that. It's better than 40 levels of Commoner, but...

Still, you're the GM, so if you want this guy to rival demon lords then rival he shall.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Demon Lords also have 9 levels of spellcasting though. 40 levels of Antipaladin isn't going to do much to keep up with that. It's better than 40 levels of Commoner, but...


Eh...

If I read it right, it would be 20 levels of anti-paladin stacked on top of the balor chassis. Which between Saving throws, hit points, SLAs and SR (since SR is usually based on CR), any CR 20-something creature isn't going to have an easy time even with access to 9th level spells.

Now I don't know every spell off the top of my head but I think Paizo has been pretty good about not including any No-save, no SR, just lose spells in PF. At least, not any that can really screw over a regular Balor, (let alone one with 20 extra class levels and access to WBL). Barring some TO I'm sure is floating around the interwebs....

BUT! If you REALLY want an insurance plan against this anti-paladin. Might I suggest your Succubus carry a really, REALLY expensive gemstone (like 50,000gp) with trap the soul (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/trapTheSoul.html) applied to it. Have the succubus give it to the anti-paladin if things seems to be getting too crazy for the demon lord to be comfortable dealing with. Using her suggestion ability, if need be.

[Psyren]

Now I don't know every spell off the top of my head but I think Paizo has been pretty good about not including any No-save, no SR, just lose spells in PF.

Nah, there's plenty of those - even down to the lowly Mudball. Demon Lords also have artifacts and cults.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Nah, there's plenty of those - even down to the lowly Mudball. Demon Lords also have artifacts and cults.

Yeah, the biggest problem would be the hordes of minions the DL has. The written artifacts are... well, powerful. But not game breaking "I win" buttons.

But .... Mudball? I mean I love the spell personally, it's a no SR blind-for-maybe-one-turn-or-more effect. However it still grants a free reflex save on the creature's next turn, and since the the CR 40 creature in question will have a Ref +17 from balor, another +6 from anti-paladin. Their CHA bonus to the saves for another +8 (if we use the stock balor), and we assume a +5 resistance bonus item... we've got a total of +36 to reflex. So the anit-paladin only fails on a natural 1 unless the DL has his casting mod equal to 28, or in other words, their casting score must be 56, well above any written Demon Lord in the CR 20-30 range, and that's just so you can make it that the anti-paladin fails on a roll of 2.

Tl;dr Mudball isn't going to win a fight against a balor with 20 levels in anti-paladin. It's a good example of a powerful low level spell, but not really useful to the topic on hand.

Look, I agree, there's plenty good spells that can remain viable even at high levels. My point was is that even with with 9th levels spells, it's not easy trying to take on something 10-15 levels higher than you.

Edit: Also, it regards to the passage you quoted Psyren, it was supposed to say "not too many no-save, no SR spells" :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Hey I used "lowly" for a reason :smalltongue:

And yeah, I'll acknowledge that if a baddie gets to CR40 he can probably challenge any printed monster. But that begs the question - if simply getting a bunch of class levels and then ritualing a near-mythic outsider chassis underneath it was a thing one could do, why the heck would nobody else have done that? The demon ritual I know of just changes your type; it doesn't actually stick you, class features and all, inside a Balor. It feels contrived is my point, but I guess contrivances are necessary for plot sometimes? idk.

[Madokar]

Hey I used "lowly" for a reason :smalltongue:

And yeah, I'll acknowledge that if a baddie gets to CR40 he can probably challenge any printed monster. But that begs the question - if simply getting a bunch of class levels and then ritualing a near-mythic outsider chassis underneath it was a thing one could do, why the heck would nobody else have done that? The demon ritual I know of just changes your type; it doesn't actually stick you, class features and all, inside a Balor. It feels contrived is my point, but I guess contrivances are necessary for plot sometimes? idk.

The Rituals of Transformation are inscribed inside the second volume of the Book of the Damned. A notriously flighty artifact that will only allow someone it chooses to acquire it. Some people have gleamed the rituals in secondary sources, but they are not always reliable. Also, each ritual is different, depending on the patron. And they escalate in difficulty the more rituals you complete.

The First Ritual just requires you to make a year-long tribute to your patron and to demonstrate your CE alignment. The Second Ritual requires you to make direct contact with your patron via Commune or Contact Other Plane, then make a Knowledge (Planes) DC of 20 after performing a significant sacrifice in the form of a loved one or family member. The Third Ritual is when your patron gives you an assignment in their interest. You have no time limit on completing it, but until you do, you have to keep weekly tribute in your patron's interest. After completing the Third Ritual, you have to perform a mass sacrifice of no less than 12 humanoids and pass another Knowledge (Planes) check with a DC of 30.

The final one requires to commit atrocities in your lord's name until you come upon the anniversary of the completion of the Third Ritual. At which point you need to sacrifice a powerful LG member of an enemy faith ot Outsider of no less than CR 9 and pass the final Knowledge (Planes) check of DC 40. You bugger up one of those checks, you have to wait a year in order to try again.

Each success slowly progresses the transformation. First Ritual grants you a CE alignment if you didn't have it already. The Second Ritual grants you Demonic Implant, typically a Demon Talon or Demon Senses. The Third Ritual grants the Half-Fiend Template, and the Fourth Ritual outright makes you a demon that retains your class levels.

So it's a long, involved process that can easily be messed up. And even if someone manages to complete the Fourth Ritual, they generally don't become Balors. The one example in the Book of the Damned that lists a success is when a 10th level Fighter became a Vrock Fighter 10.

[Spore]

Any SMART servant of evil would try to serve his god while AVOIDING demonic taint. I don't know your Antipaladin but generally I quite enjoy my free will. And demons are basically personified emotions like envy, hate or greed or embodied negative qualities of morality or simply disgusting things. I would not want my final gift to become a perfect servant for my god and transform into a demon. I would keep my mundane and unholy powers in balance. Keep armies that aren't relying on divine intervention and divinity that doesn't rely on worldly support.

[Madokar]

Any SMART servant of evil would try to serve his god while AVOIDING demonic taint. I don't know your Antipaladin but generally I quite enjoy my free will. And demons are basically personified emotions like envy, hate or greed or embodied negative qualities of morality or simply disgusting things. I would not want my final gift to become a perfect servant for my god and transform into a demon. I would keep my mundane and unholy powers in balance. Keep armies that aren't relying on divine intervention and divinity that doesn't rely on worldly support.

The idea is that the Antipaladin and his friends have a low opinion of humanity. The humans in the group are subjecting themselves to gradual transformations, and the rest are lycanthropes. The Alchemist is applying Fleshgrafts to himself, and the Wizard has subjected himself to the Promethean Corruption.

The Antipaladin's the only one who has embraced what's going to happen to him in the afterlife, and is trying to retain as much control over the transformation as possible.