Why are physicians generally huge jerks? [Archive]

Peelee

2017-08-04, 03:57 PM

I get it, you have a good job and yous dutied for very long, but you are not a good, why so many doctors lack the basic of empathy?

I had tot ake my mom to the hospital yesterday and they were either:

-Too cool for school.
-Too incopetent.
-Too serius and cold.
-Joking aorund while you are really not in the mood for that.

I know he must be tired.
I know he may be a beginner.
I know he is tring to keep it professional and impartial.
I know he is tring to make me feel better.

But why? Is it too much to ask to just do your job and reassure me that everything will be fine?

Well, they had a whole helluva lot of schooling that was fairly intensive, expensive, and competitive. That's the starting point for every doctor.

Now, after that, we have several possibilities. They could have patients who come in for maladies, get treated, get advice from the doctor on how to avoid such maladies in the future (eg, "no red meat,"), and then promptly ignore said advice (eg, eating a steak every night). So the doctor, who had to jump through all those hoops to help people, gets ignored and has to do more work because his patients won't do a damn thing to help themselves.

Or, there are patients who look online for a bit and become convinced that they know as much as the doctor does. So we have a doctor who had to jump through all those hoops to help people get ignored because some dude on the internet wrote an article saying the opposite of what he thinks, having actually looked at you and seen your medical history.

Or, there are patients who are convinced that western medicine is the devil, so they'll go in when horrible tragedy strikes or an ambulance brings them in, but will ignore any advice and will ask for no medicine, no X-Rays, no CT scans, no MRI scans, etc. So we have a doctor who jumped through all those hoops to help people get ignored because some people think that a crystal holds just as much healing power as the doctor.

And so on and so on. Now, I'm not saying there aren't incompetent doctors or doctors who just got in it for the money. There absolutely are. And I'm not saying that no patient will ever listen to the doctor. Most will. But when you have a portion of patients who disrespect you in rather shocking ways, plus the idea that you're always fighting a losing battle, it's not out of the realm of possibility that those things can build up and have an effect on the docs.

Add in that all that schooling and high-tier knowledge can also impart a god-complex, and that some people are naturally somewhat jerkish to begin with, and doctors can be dealt a pretty rough hand. Though there's always the fact that having a bad day while driving your Mercedes down to your lake house is a far cry better than having a bad day driving your Volkswagen down to your apartment.

danzibr

2017-08-04, 04:23 PM

Does a PhD in Mathematics count? I know you're talking about an MD, but still.

If so... I'm not a huge jerk ;)

Come to think of it... alright, first I'll take doctor to mean anyone with a doctorate. I would say a strong majority were actually not jerks, even quite kind. Then again, many were academics.

Next, restricting myself to doctors, dentists, chiropractors, and the like, I would say again well over half have been quite kind.

Now, looking *just* at people with an MD... ya know, I'm still going to say most were kind. I can certainly think of some jerk doctors I've met, but that's not the norm.

Sorry you've had bad experiences. :(

Aedilred

2017-08-04, 04:38 PM

I have to say that "jerk doctors" hasn't generally been my experience. I've had a couple of brusque ones and one or two who've tried to fob me off because they didn't take my complaint seriously, but for the most part I have had a positive experience of doctors I've visited as a patient and those I've known socially.

That aside, I think Peelee is largely correct. Being a doctor is a taxing, emotionally draining, job, and you see a lot of people who you probably fantasise about slapping/throttling/etc. as well as a lot of the ugly side of humanity. It's not surprising that a lot of them develop a thick and/or spiky outer shell, or an inappropriate sense of humour.

To answer your question directly:

Is it too much to ask to just do your job...
Really? Yes, I think so, of almost anyone. Demanding of someone that they just do their job is a much bigger ask than it sounds. In some fields, mostly those related to security, this is pretty much a requirement, but such jobs often have short shifts and a relatively high turnover, because it's hard to do that for long.

They're people, not robots; they're always going to be "more than" the job.

Is it too much to ask to ... reassure me that everything will be fine?
A lot of the time, yes. It depends what the problem is. A good doctor won't tell you everything will be fine if they don't know that it will. If a complaint is serious, they'll treat it seriously (whether they are making jokes or not) and they're not going to lie to you about your chances. Not least because they don't want people to turn round and sue them.

Chen

2017-08-04, 04:59 PM

-Too serius and cold.
-Joking aorund while you are really not in the mood for that.

Uh so cant be serious and clinical but also cant joke around. So what exactly does that leave?

But why? Is it too much to ask to just do your job and reassure me that everything will be fine?

Do their job fine. Reassure you that everything will be fine? Sure if thats the situation. If its not or its unknown they're not there to patronize you and make you feel better if things are going badly.

Luz

2017-08-04, 05:52 PM

Uh so cant be serious and clinical but also cant joke around. So what exactly does that leave?

Be serious but emphatic. I saw a doctor telling a mother that her son would lose the movement of his legs, stone cold blank face, she almost passed out and he didn't even help her get up. WTF? Can’t you prepare her a little bit?

Also if someone is telling that their mother tried to kill herself with a knife during a psychotic breakdown the least thing you want to hear is the doctor joking that maybe she was using it to defend herself against monster, or that the price is the worst side effect of a medicine or that my name rhyme with hers. That’s like so clearly not the time or moment for that, am I talking to a professional or a buffoon?

Razade

2017-08-04, 05:55 PM

So be serious and humorous to suit you perfectly. Adding Luz to the list alongside The Eye and Bartmanhomer.

Luz

2017-08-04, 06:01 PM

So be serious and humorous to suit you perfectly. Adding Luz to the list alongside The Eye and Bartmanhomer.

Are not only arrogant but also stupid? In what moment did I said that physicians need to be humorous? Are you unable to read properly?

And what is that list of yours? A list of people you see as inferior to you? Does that make your insignificant life feel less of a burden?

golentan

2017-08-04, 06:07 PM

Be serious but emphatic. I saw a doctor telling a mother that her son would lose the movement of his legs, stone cold blank face, she almost passed out and he didn't even help her get up. WTF? Can’t you prepare her a little bit?

Also if someone is telling that their mother tried to kill herself with a knife during a psychotic breakdown the least thing you want to hear is the doctor joking that maybe she was using it to defend herself against monster, or that the price is the worst side effect of a medicine or that my name rhyme with hers. That’s like so clearly not the time or moment for that, am I talking to a professional or a buffoon?

Sometimes doctors cross the line, but you have to remember that the bad news you may hear is the worst news you're likely to get all month. Whereas doctors have to go back and deal with a few hundred more patients in that time frame, many of whom will die, some of whom will die horribly, some of whom will do so while the doctor watches and is expected to fill out the paperwork about their death.

In a hospital, it's different from family care/pediatrics. It's rough on everyone. There's a high burnout rate. So people develop coping mechanisms. I'm in animal medicine, and in school we had a whole module on compassion fatigue and avoiding burnout, and with the exception of 24 hour emergency clinics veterinary medicine is more usually like family practice on the human side (though we do do surgeries and chemo and euthanasia). And it's rough. Sometimes, you go into the back and take 5 minutes to cry, and then you have to put your game face back on and give vaccines to a puppy who looks like your patient that just died, or get a medical history on an animal who you know is not going to have a positive outcome, and you have to cope.

That's why doctors can come off rough. Because it's hard, and they're trying to cope.

Luz

2017-08-04, 06:11 PM

That's why doctors can come off rough. Because it's hard, and they're trying to cope.

Deep down I know that, I just wanted to vent.

But I must say hospitals are completely unprepared to deal with psychiatric emergencies, I had to most of the work while the nurses just look around scared.

Razade

2017-08-04, 06:12 PM

Are not only arrogant but also stupid? In what moment did I said that physicians need to be humorous? Are you unable to read properly?

I can read just fine thank you. Humor and Joking are synonyms after all, I'm sorry I didn't use the precise language you used.

And what is that list of yours? A list of people you see as inferior to you? Does that make your insignificant life feel less of a burden?

A list of people who make wildly broad sweeping comments about entire professions or people in a judgmental way and then respond rather aggressively when their preconceived notions are challenged. Sort of like, when it's pointed out that a person (you) is being unreasonable in their attitude towards physicians (or anything else) instead of going "you might be correct" they instead start insulting people. Like telling them they don't know how to read or have an insignificant life.

That list.

Luz

2017-08-04, 06:19 PM

I can read just fine thank you. Humor and Joking are synonyms after all, I'm sorry I didn't use the precise language you used.

Oh yeah and on my post I totally said I love the joking part right? I hate smartasses who come to a place, don't even read things appropriately and think they are the smartest people around.

A list of people who make wildly broad sweeping comments about entire professions or people in a judgmental way and then respond rather aggressively when their preconceived notions are challenged. Sort of like, when it's pointed out that a person (you) is being unreasonable in their attitude towards physicians (or anything else) instead of going "you might be correct" they instead start insulting people. Like telling them they don't know how to read or have an insignificant life.

That list.

"Look at me I'm Razade, I'm so smart that I have to make people feel down and bad about themselves since I can't contribute with anything relevant to the threat."

Next time don't be a bully, if you have nothing to say don't post.

The fact you need to make people feel down to make yourself feel better, is pathetic, grow up.

golentan

2017-08-04, 06:21 PM

Deep down I know that, I just wanted to vent.

But I must say hospitals are completely unprepared to deal with psychiatric emergencies, I had to most of the work while the nurses just look around scared.

You get basically none of my sympathy on that. I've been through basically every part of the mental health "system" since I was diagnosed with a psychotic illness as a minor. That's a systemic problem, not a nurse problem.

Luz

2017-08-04, 06:25 PM

You get basically none of my sympathy on that. I've been through basically every part of the mental health "system" since I was diagnosed with a psychotic illness as a minor. That's a systemic problem, not a nurse problem.

What do you mean? Do I have to contain a woman screaming and fighting by myself while four big guys who are allegedly better trained and prepared for this kind of situations just look and don't help?

golentan

2017-08-04, 06:41 PM

Luz

2017-08-04, 06:45 PM

I mean that I'm not inclined to take your word that you "containing" her was helping, if this was happening in the lobby/patient intake I don't believe those people were better trained to "contain" her (if anything, their better training if they had received it which is not a given may have reasonably including giving her some space to calm down), and my sympathies about the problems of being in a hospital for mental health reasons lie here with the patient, not with you.
Fair enough.

I'm just going to add that this is a difficult situation for all involved, just because you experienced firsthand one side of the story doesn't mean you can't understand and try to comprehend the other.

golentan

2017-08-04, 07:13 PM

I didn't say that I have no understanding or sympathy to the loved ones of psychiatric patients. I've lived that side too, and my friends and family have been really wonderful about offering care and support despite how clearly hard it was for them on the occasions I've been hospitalized.

I said I had no sympathy for the specific complaint you were making in that post.

Luz

2017-08-04, 07:16 PM

golentan

2017-08-04, 07:32 PM

WarKitty

2017-08-04, 07:37 PM

Luz, do you suppose you could give us a bit more story? Putting together from a few threads, I know this is a really, really hard time for you. It's just hard to tell what exactly is going on right now.

Luz

2017-08-04, 07:38 PM

I dunno, since I don't know much about what was going on.

You made a thread to complain about how an entire profession dedicated to saving lives are jerks, then dribble out details about how your mother was in crisis and potentially at risk of her life as a defense of your position, and my impression is less than impressed with how you've expressed or dealt with any of this, in part because of how it jibes with the people who most hurt me when I was in a similar situation to hers.

Like, I'd be having a VERY different reaction if this thread had been framed differently around your mother rather than around doctors having a bedside manner you disapproved of. "The psychiatric system is poorly organized, understaffed, lacks sufficient beds for patients, and antipsychotic meds are too expensive" is a very different conversation for me than "a doctor told a bad joke about monsters which might have been probing for symptoms."

I still would like to express my support and hope that the psych ward and meds are able to stabilize her. She will also undoubtedly need a good support network, and preferably someone to help ensure she stays on her meds. Feel free to pass her my support on that front when you have the opportunity.

I guess I was just angry and needed to find a culprit for my anger.

Thanks for the suport.

I guess I will be the one to help ensure she stays on her meds.

Thanks, I will.

EDIT:

Luz, do you suppose you could give us a bit more story? Putting together from a few threads, I know this is a really, really hard time for you. It's just hard to tell what exactly is going on right now.

Well it's a long story, here we go:

My mom was never really a happy girl, she had a lot of problems with her sister and classmates, she was always considered a weird kid since she was quiet and more reserved, she grows up, she met her first boyfriend when she was a young adult, he is kind to her, they fall in love, he dies in a car crash.

She never really gets over it.

She meets my father, they start dating, they marry in impulse, she has her first psychotic breakdown when she finds out he was cheating on her, she has always been very spiritual and religious, she started hearing voices, seeing angels and claims a portal opened for her one day and she went to the other side to see her ex-boyfriend who died.

She gets better, builds our house, works as a teacher, loved by her students. My father‘s family is super rude and mean to her. They have my brother and then me.

One day my father's mom is so rude with her she has another psychotic breakdown, runs away, stays two nights in the streets end up institutionalized, hates it, never admits she has a problem for her is a spiritual thing.

The place she was institutionalized brings her a great deal of shame, she thinks she didn’t had to go there and she hates the fact that she was forced to go there.

My father stars acting more and more violent against my mom and my brother, I do nothing about it since I was just a kid.

My brother starts to act more and more like a rebel, causing trouble at school and picking up fights.

My mother's sister blame her for this, she gets deeply depressed.

Me and my mom share many things together, we listen to classical music, dance, paint, do yoga, talk about religion and philosophy.

She makes me promise I would never let her be institutionalized again.

Our bound gets stronger and stronger.

My mother starts getting depressed.

My mother tries to suicide. She fails.

She gets better; my brother graduates and starts university.

My father starts to get more and more violent to point where after a fight with my mother he attacks us with a knife and tries to murder us.

We hide in the living room until he gets calm.

He starts crying as asks for forgiveness.

My mother forgives him, not because of her love for him but because she doesn't want her "reputation to be ruined"

I reluctantly agree.

My father gets less violent and more distant.

I graduate and Start University, I focus so much on the studies that I don't enjoy my youth, with such a messy home I can't afford to go to parties and have friends.

My brother graduates and move away.

I end up finding out I'm gay and not knowing how to deal with it I ask my brother's help begging for him not to tell anyone.

He tells my mom, she feels betrayed, she always hated sex in all forms and gay sex for her was especially bad and repulsive.

My brother and my Mom decide to not tell my father about it since he is very homophobic and one my cousins on his side of the family even has been reported assaulting gay people on the streets.

They found a conversion therapy hypnotist, they make me go there.

I feel like I betrayed my mom, I was the only one she trusted and now her eyes look dead with sadness, she can't even look at my face knowing the things I think.

Conversion therapy goes as expected, torture both physical and mental; she even used small doses of electroshock that i think messed up my brain even more.

I act like it worked hiding my sexuality and ending any possibility of having a normal sex life.

I graduate, start working at a shifty job living an unhappy and unfulfilling life.

My father starts to participate more, but fails at being nice.

My brother starts dating a girl who my mom hates since she is a bad influence on him, making him spending a lot of money, start drinking and smoking.

Me and my mom, we get closer again, but it's just not the same, she has that disgusted look on her face every time she remembers what I was "cured" off.

My brother gets married to that girl my mom hates.

She starts to get bad again, saying things that don't make much sense.

Fast forward to now where she had a full blown psychotic breakdown, hearing voices, acting like a child, claiming everyone is out to get her, that they have cameras and mics around the house, that I'm the only one she can trust.

I wake up she has a knife on her hand; I get worried thinking she is trying to kill herself.

After much convening she aggress to seek help since she trusts me.

My father is driving, she changes her mind and tries to jump out of the moving car, I'm forced to hold her she bites my hands many times, after that she starts saying a lot of horrible and mean things about me in front of my father who did not knew.

We get to the hospital, I called as we left our house explaining the situation, they ensure me they were ready, they weren’t.

After a long time, speeding the night there and having to deal with aphetic and rude doctors she get the medicine she needs, gets calmer, we come home, my father assumes all she said were not true, but punches me and says that it better not be true.
I keep my promise and refuse the suggestion of the doctor to have her institutionalized and suggest treating her at home with the medicine he prescribed, he agree but makes me sign a paper where I take full responsibility of that.

She is starting to recover, but claims I broke the promise since I took her to the hospital. I didn’t knew what to do she was getting to violent and agitated, my conscious is clear, I gave her the medicine and she is now sleeping to the music of Erik Satie and I log in the internet to vent.

And now I'm telling my entire life story here, thanks for this, I really needed that, to share you know? I feel much better thanks.

tensai_oni

2017-08-04, 08:44 PM

Scarlet Knight

2017-08-05, 09:22 AM

Luz, your story is both tragic and common. The mental health system is very labor intensive, understaffed and under-budgeted. People have trouble dealing with the insane. There are good people willing to help; they are often just too worn down and outnumbered to be effective.

The mentally ill are particularly hard to deal with in the medical field. Often every decision the patient makes is compromised and it falls upon family to care for them. If a patient with high blood pressure refuses his medication, he eventually strokes out and dies, hurting only himself. If a paranoid refuses his meds, he ends up attacking people in the street. Life for the families of the mentally ill is very hard (plus I wouldn’t be surprised if your father is also crazy).

Sadly, like most family of the mentally ill, you will either have to care for your parents, which is a life sentence - albeit a noble one; or you will have to decide if it is beyond your ability and institutionalize your mom. Most of us face this with Alzheimer’s parents, but sadly, if you are dutiful, your parents may live for another 50 years or more.

JNAProductions

2017-08-05, 11:19 AM

In my experience, doctors tend to be an okay sort. Admittedly, I've never had a doctor tell me I was going to go blind or a family member was going to die or anything.

Most of my doctors have been nice enough people-not always perfect, but helpful and doing their best to see me healthy.

There's one exception, but even then, he wasn't necessarily a jerk-not in his attitude, anyway. He was trying to make money in perhaps a less than savory way, but he wasn't rude or anything. (And no, it wasn't anything too bad-just probably getting kickbacks from the pharmacies.)

S@tanicoaldo

2017-08-05, 12:17 PM

I'm sorry Luz, that you have to go through this, but look at the bright side, if you ever write you biography is going to be more interesting than mine.

Pages and pages of:
"Satanicoaldo woke up, played video games/read comics/Surfed the net, went to work."
"Satanicoaldo came back from work, played video games/read comics/Surfed the net, went to bed" :smallbiggrin:

On a serious note, you may think that your relationship with your mother is a good thing, but in my opinion it's a very harmful one.

She has no support network other than you, it seems she sees you more as a friend than a son, that's not healthy, you are not her friend you are her son she can't demand things from you, if she has no friends or ways to interact with other people of course her mind will not be healthy.

The same goes with you, she is keeping you form having a good and healthy social life, that may end up taking a tool on your own sanity.

My advice is, if you plan to take care of her for your entire life (You said so in the other thread), after she gets better, she needs a hobby and people to be friend with, and you also need friends and strong support form people who are not mentally sick right now.

That's my advice, build social links. :smallwink:

About the doctors, yeah they are generally huge @ssholes, the power and influence will do that to you; many have god complexes and are very disrespectful towards other people’s beliefs.

But I have dated a military doctor, who worked in the psychiatric department, and he cracked jokes all the time, both at the job and at home, he claimed that it was to ease things and part of his personality.

If the family likes this kind of thing they would feel better if they don’t they would be so pissed at him that they would not have time to be angry either with their love d ones or with themselves(something very common according to him). But I agree it’s kind of anti-ethical but as the others said it’s a coping mechanism, she was the first person you had to deal with that had this kind of problem and look how worn out you are, imagine how many he has already seen.

Florian

2017-08-05, 02:54 PM

Weird coincidence. Just had one of my regular talks with one of my main investors, her mum is a case of early-onset alzheimers and she cares deeply for her.

Luz, do you really, honestly believe your mum is "starting to recover"? It reads more like the kind of abuse you suffered, you crave love by your parents and the actual situation to "give and receive" validates this.

At that point, everyone telling you the truth will come over s a huge "jerk".

The Eye

2017-08-05, 05:35 PM

@Luz, you have my sympathies, it's not easy to deal with mental health issues, try not to overdo it and spare some time for yourself.

So be serious and humorous to suit you perfectly. Adding Luz to the list alongside The Eye and Bartmanhomer.

Hey Razade, I don't mind you saying bad things about me in my threats, but I don't go around the forum spreading the word of how much of a jerk you are so i would appreciate if you didn't do that to me.

Chen

2017-08-05, 07:45 PM

About the doctors, yeah they are generally huge @ssholes, the power and influence will do that to you; many have god complexes and are very disrespectful towards other people’s beliefs.

Generally? There are no doubt ******* doctors out there but to imply most of them are is absolutely ridiculous.

S@tanicoaldo

2017-08-05, 07:54 PM

Generally? There are no doubt ******* doctors out there but to imply most of them are is absolutely ridiculous.

Ask a nurse, psychologist or physiotherapist how does it feel to work in a hospital with doctors. After that come back and tell me how it went. ;)

Peelee

2017-08-05, 11:03 PM

Ask a nurse, psychologist or physiotherapist

Oh, that's not fair. At least the other two studied a real science. Before anyone replies, yes, I know. Still funny.

Delicious Taffy

2017-08-05, 11:29 PM

Oh, that's not fair. At least the other two studied a real science. Before anyone replies, yes, I know. Still funny.

Damn, Peelee's playin' hardball.

Chen

2017-08-07, 07:09 AM

Ask a nurse, psychologist or physiotherapist how does it feel to work in a hospital with doctors. After that come back and tell me how it went. ;)

I know nurses, doctors and other people who work around them (e.g., my wife). As I said, there are definitely some doctors who are bad. Going so far as to to say MOST are, is hyperbole and frankly wrong. Every profession has bad eggs in it. You also hear more about the bad stories from ANYTHING than the good.

Florian

2017-08-07, 07:21 AM

Ask a nurse, psychologist or physiotherapist how does it feel to work in a hospital with doctors. After that come back and tell me how it went. ;)

Both my mother and my step-mother worked as nurses, the later even as chief OP nurse. My father worked as CTO for a large state-run mental ward and my step sisters´s divorced man worked as a GP in a switzerland hospital.

Have these talks and we´ll find out that the "lower rungs" and the "upper rungs" have vastly differing priorities. Talk about the background of these differences, and we should not wonder but be ashamed.

Fishybugs

2017-08-07, 02:31 PM

Ask a nurse, psychologist or physiotherapist how does it feel to work in a hospital with doctors. After that come back and tell me how it went. ;)

Quite well, thank you.

I've been an emergency room nurse for 12 years. Some of the best people I've known are physicians. Some of the worst as well, but much, much fewer.

We do deal with a lot of psychiatric issues. I don't know where Luz lives, but there are actually some states who don't allow emergency room staff to restrain a patient. We really try to make it the last resort because "laying on hands" to someone is dangerous for the patient, staff, and bystanders. If the patient is in a safe place, we let them scream and yell and do what they need to do. It's a crisis situation, and they aren't going to be responsive to therapy at that moment. That said, is the patient is actively hurting themselves, you bet we'll rush in there and hold them down, then tie them to a bed. I'm all of 110 pounds and I've had to assist in taking down guys who could have done well in the MMA.

Once the situation has calmed down then, yes, we do try to offer a psychiatric consultation. We can hold people against their will and force therapy on them if we deem it serious enough. Each state has different laws regarding that process. I'm sorry, Luz, that you had such a negative experience in this.

Here's my advice: Mental health issues rarely see cures. They are relapses. If someone is on their meds and are able to function, they very often stop taking the meds because they think they are "better now". We see the same people over and over in crisis mode because they think they can get better. Someone else in the thread (or several someones really) told you to take care of yourself as well. This is great advice. Make sure that your mom has other people to help her than you. Find out what resources are available in your community. There are often 'respite caregivers' available who can keep her company while you go out and socialize. If caring for someone else is all you're doing you will burn out.

S@tanicoaldo

2017-08-07, 06:58 PM

Oh, that's not fair. At least the other two studied a real science.

See? This is what I'm talking about, and Peelee may not even be a doctor! For all we knwo he is a legendary Brazilian soccer player. :smallbiggrin:

Peelee

2017-08-07, 07:08 PM

See? This is what I'm talking about, and Peelee may not even be a doctor! For all we knwo he is a legendary Brazilian soccer player. :smallbiggrin:

Football.:smalltongue:

goto124

2017-08-08, 03:24 AM

Football.:smalltongue:

Americans :smalltongue: (http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/football-v-handegg.jpg)

Peelee

2017-08-08, 09:45 AM

Americans :smalltongue: (http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/football-v-handegg.jpg)

One of my favorite things in life is the British, who invented the word "soccer" for that game, giving Americans grief for calling it soccer.

And yeah, I'm all about changing the name to handegg.

Luz

2017-08-08, 07:22 PM

That's one heck of a story there.

I think I know why your brother moved out. Your parents sound toxic and, frankly, I suggest moving out too. I had sympathy for your mother but by the time she hated you and had you go through conversion therapy just because of your sexuality, I lost all of it. Your father in particular sounds like someone you'd be better off cutting off from your life completely. Don't hesitate to call the cops if he assaults you again.

There are subreddits specializing in advice for people in hard life situations, especially relationship-related situations (/r/relationships is a good one), and they're a good place to get advice regarding this kind of thing. Definitely a better place than this forum.

I don't really like to share stuff on reddit since I feel that place is too full of people and too impersonal.

Smaller forums have kind of a sense of community, they are still strangers on the internet it's just that you feel that they are strangers that you know, for all that's worth.

Then again I wasn’t planning on sharing stuff here, it's just something that happen., sorry to bother you guys :/

Luz, your story is both tragic and common. The mental health system is very labor intensive, understaffed and under-budgeted. People have trouble dealing with the insane. There are good people willing to help; they are often just too worn down and outnumbered to be effective.

The mentally ill are particularly hard to deal with in the medical field. Often every decision the patient makes is compromised and it falls upon family to care for them. If a patient with high blood pressure refuses his medication, he eventually strokes out and dies, hurting only himself. If a paranoid refuses his meds, he ends up attacking people in the street. Life for the families of the mentally ill is very hard (plus I wouldn’t be surprised if your father is also crazy).

Sadly, like most family of the mentally ill, you will either have to care for your parents, which is a life sentence - albeit a noble one; or you will have to decide if it is beyond your ability and institutionalize your mom. Most of us face this with Alzheimer’s parents, but sadly, if you are dutiful, your parents may live for another 50 years or more.

Yeah, my family is like super crazy, no wonder I turn out to be extra crazy.

I think that's a fate I deserve and I can live with, is not like I have many options.

Luz, your story is both tragic and common. The mental health system is very labor intensive, understaffed and under-budgeted. People have trouble dealing with the insane. There are good people willing to help; they are often just too worn down and outnumbered to be effective.

The mentally ill are particularly hard to deal with in the medical field. Often every decision the patient makes is compromised and it falls upon family to care for them. If a patient with high blood pressure refuses his medication, he eventually strokes out and dies, hurting only himself. If a paranoid refuses his meds, he ends up attacking people in the street. Life for the families of the mentally ill is very hard (plus I wouldn’t be surprised if your father is also crazy).

Sadly, like most family of the mentally ill, you will either have to care for your parents, which is a life sentence - albeit a noble one; or you will have to decide if it is beyond your ability and institutionalize your mom. Most of us face this with Alzheimer’s parents, but sadly, if you are dutiful, your parents may live for another 50 years or more.
Yeah, my family is like super crazy, no wonder I turn out to be extra crazy.

I'm sorry Luz, that you have to go through this, but look at the bright side, if you ever write you biography is going to be more interesting than mine.

Pages and pages of:
"Satanicoaldo woke up, played video games/read comics/Surfed the net, went to work."
"Satanicoaldo came back from work, played video games/read comics/Surfed the net, went to bed" :smallbiggrin:

On a serious note, you may think that your relationship with your mother is a good thing, but in my opinion it's a very harmful one.

She has no support network other than you, it seems she sees you more as a friend than a son, that's not healthy, you are not her friend you are her son she can't demand things from you, if she has no friends or ways to interact with other people of course her mind will not be healthy.

The same goes with you, she is keeping you form having a good and healthy social life, that may end up taking a tool on your own sanity.

My advice is, if you plan to take care of her for your entire life (You said so in the other thread), after she gets better, she needs a hobby and people to be friend with, and you also need friends and strong support form people who are not mentally sick right now.

That's my advice, build social links. :smallwink:

About the doctors, yeah they are generally huge @ssholes, the power and influence will do that to you; many have god complexes and are very disrespectful towards other people’s beliefs.

But I have dated a military doctor, who worked in the psychiatric department, and he cracked jokes all the time, both at the job and at home, he claimed that it was to ease things and part of his personality.

If the family likes this kind of thing they would feel better if they don’t they would be so pissed at him that they would not have time to be angry either with their love d ones or with themselves(something very common according to him). But I agree it’s kind of anti-ethical but as the others said it’s a coping mechanism, she was the first person you had to deal with that had this kind of problem and look how worn out you are, imagine how many he has already seen.

I would rather have a “boring” life like that anytime.

Weird coincidence. Just had one of my regular talks with one of my main investors, her mum is a case of early-onset alzheimers and she cares deeply for her.

Luz, do you really, honestly believe your mum is "starting to recover"? It reads more like the kind of abuse you suffered, you crave love by your parents and the actual situation to "give and receive" validates this.

At that point, everyone telling you the truth will come over s a huge "jerk".

I’m sorry what? I didn’t understand anything you said.

Liquor Box

2017-08-12, 05:51 PM

Football.:smalltongue:

Isn''t England the only English speaking country where most people call the sport in question 'football'. I think, in general use, 'soccer' is the term everywhere byt England.

Aedilred

2017-08-12, 09:27 PM

Isn''t England the only English speaking country where most people call the sport in question 'football'. I think, in general use, 'soccer' is the term everywhere byt England.

Scotland and Wales call it football too.

BWR

2017-08-13, 03:57 AM

Isn''t England the only English speaking country where most people call the sport in question 'football'. I think, in general use, 'soccer' is the term everywhere byt England.

You have that backwards; it's called football everywhere except the US.

hamishspence

2017-08-13, 05:26 AM

And the US only calls it "soccer" because they've already used "football" for a different sport.

Everywhere else, calls the US sport "American football".

One of my favorite things in life is the British, who invented the word "soccer" for that game, giving Americans grief for calling it soccer.

Maybe the British invented the term "soccer" for Americans to use amongst themselves only :smallbiggrin:?

BWR

2017-08-13, 05:48 AM

Everywhere else, calls the US sport "American football".

I've also heard 'wuss rugby'. Or various less polite words than 'wuss'.

Liquor Box

2017-08-13, 06:32 AM

You have that backwards; it's called football everywhere except the US.

Being from an English speaking country that is not the US, I can confirm that you are wrong about that. Soccer calls itself football here (so does rugby), but most people call it soccer.

'Football' can be equally understoof to refer to soccer, one of the rugby codes, or American football.

Liquor Box

2017-08-13, 06:42 AM

Scotland and Wales call it football too.

Ok. Everywhere by UK then?

hamishspence

2017-08-13, 07:01 AM

Ok. Everywhere by UK then?

If you go by Wikipedia, Canada is the main exception to the general principle that football is the preferred term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_association_football

Countries where it is called football
Association football is known as "football" in the majority of countries where English is an official language, such as the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth Caribbean (including Trinidad and Tobago,[10] Jamaica and others), Malta, India, Nigeria, Cameroon, Pakistan, Liberia, Singapore, Hong Kong and others, stretching over many regions including parts of Europe, Asia, Africa, the Caribbean and Central America.

Fitbaa, fitba or fitbaw, is a rendering of the Scots pronunciation of "football", sometimes seen in humorous or ironic contexts.

North America
In the United States, where American football is the dominant code, the word football is used to refer to that sport. Association football is most commonly referred to as soccer.

As early as 1911 there were several names in use for the sport in the Americas. A 29 December 1911 New York Times article reporting on the addition of the game as an official collegiate sport in the US referred to it as "association football", "soccer" and "soccer football" all in a single article.[11]

The sport's governing body is the United States Soccer Federation; however, it was originally called the U.S. Football Association, and was formed in 1913 by the merger of the American Football Association and the American Amateur Football Association. The word "soccer" was added to the name in 1945, making it the U.S. Soccer Football Association, and it did not drop the word "football" until 1974, when it assumed its current name.

In Canada, similar to the US, the term "football" refers to gridiron football (either Canadian football or American football; le football canadien or le football américain in Standard French). "Soccer" is the name for association football in Canadian English (similarly, in Canadian French, le soccer).

South Africa is the other notable exception. Some countries use "soccer" and "football" equally, but very few countries prefer the term "soccer" - besides South Africa and Canada.

Aedilred

2017-08-13, 12:21 PM

2D8HP

2017-08-13, 03:28 PM

I believe Australians also call it "soccer", day to day. Not sure about NZ but I wouldn't be surprised. Likewise Ireland.

That may be because, with different rules, there's Gaelic football (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_football) in Ireland (and San Francisco! The carpenters have a big "Irish pride" thing, and some of them did that, the gardeners had "Chinese pride" and did Whale boat racing (http://www.itcrowing.com/bawra/events.asp), neither of which I've done, but I have done a little
Dragon boat racing (http://www.sfdragonboat.com/), but really as a plumber in San Francisco, I'm supposed to do Bocce (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bocce) since we become Italian when we receive our union card :smallwink:)

Liquor Box

2017-08-13, 04:25 PM

If you go by Wikipedia, Canada is the main exception to the general principle that football is the preferred term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_association_football

South Africa is the other notable exception. Some countries use "soccer" and "football" equally, but very few countries prefer the term "soccer" - besides South Africa and Canada.

Countries like Cameroon and Nigeria may have English as an official language, but the majority of the population speak different languages.

Of countries where English is spoken by the overwhelming majority of the population and who have qualified for the Soccer World Cup Finals, the word 'football' is usually used in the Home Nations, and the word 'soccer' is usually used in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

If you want to include other countries where English is spoken but is not the main language, or countries that have borrowed one of the two English words to describe the sport, the issue may become more muddied. I know that Japan and Korea use the word 'soccer', but I accept there might be a few which borrow the word 'football'.

I do think it is clear that the word 'soccer' is widespread enough (and certainly not confined to USA, or a handful of exceptions).

Mikemical

2017-08-13, 04:33 PM

Aedilred

2017-08-13, 04:52 PM

Really, the whole "silly Americans calling it soccer" thing is one of the most tedious-but-inevitable exercises in one-upmanship around. It's an argument about nothing. British people coined a word to describe a British game in order to distinguish it from other football games. Americans use the word to distinguish it from other football games. This is exactly the manner in which the word was intended to be used. That's all there is to it.

It is not a unique phenomenon to America, as demonstrated, and it's not even unknown in the UK itself (spend some time around a rugby crowd, especially if they went to public school).

Liquor Box

2017-08-13, 04:59 PM

All Spanish speaking countries call it football(written 'futbol'), Portuguese call it football(written and pronounced 'fuchibol'), etc.

The majority of the world calls it football, rather than soccer. Just like how the majority of the world uses the metric system.

Sure, but I think we were discussing what the most widely used English word is for the sport. Futbol and fuchibol might be the word for the sport in Spanish and Portuguese, but I don't think that has much bearing on the English word for the sport.

The metric system is slightly different, because very few (if any) countries outside USA do not use the metric system, whereas lots of countries outside USA use the word 'soccer'. Even then, if USA is the only country to use the imperial system, that does not make them wrong to do so.

Wardog

2017-08-14, 01:09 PM

There are lots of different types of football. (Association, Rugby, Gaelic, American, Austrailian Rules, "whoever gets the ball to the other end of the town wins", etc).

It seems reasonable that whichever form is most popular in any particular country gets called "football" there, and you only need to use more specific names when talking about other types of football, or talking to foreigners who have a different most popular type.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-15, 04:03 PM

Even then, if USA is the only country to use the imperial system, that does not make them wrong to do so.

Wrong? No, why. Silly? Well... :smalltongue:

As it was mentioned, it's only natural that you use "Football" whatever the most popular type is in the territory you live in. The problem with these arguments is that most people fail to see that the issue isn't that it shouldn't be called "soccer". The issue is that the American type shouldn't be called football as default (except when in the US, obviously).

WarKitty

2017-08-15, 04:37 PM

druid91

2017-08-15, 04:50 PM

Palanan

2017-08-15, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Liquor Box
Isn''t England the only English speaking country where most people call the sport in question 'football'. I think, in general use, 'soccer' is the term everywhere byt England.

In Brazil they say “futebol,” straight from England’s “football.”

To my knowledge, “fuchibol” is not used in Brazil, and sounds like a phonetic spelling of “futebol.”

Liquor Box

2017-08-15, 05:41 PM

Wrong? No, why. Silly? Well... :smalltongue:

As it was mentioned, it's only natural that you use "Football" whatever the most popular type is in the territory you live in. The problem with these arguments is that most people fail to see that the issue isn't that it shouldn't be called "soccer". The issue is that the American type shouldn't be called football as default (except when in the US, obviously).

I'm from a metric country, and prefer the metric system. But that doesn't mean I think it is silly that the Americans use the imperial system - the cost of conversion for them would be huge, and what are the benefits really?

As to 'football' it is not only Grid Iron and soccer that are regularly called football. There is also Australian Rules Football (which is no way similar to soccer), Rugby Union and Rugby League that are usually referred to as 'football' in certain parts of the world (occasionally including England based on Aedelred's post). I understand that there is also Gaelic football and probably several other less prominent types.

In my country, if one used the word 'football' without any context (such as them being known to be a fan of one of the football sports) there would be general confusion as to whether they were referring to rugby, league, grid iron or soccer. Maybe you are right that the word football should not be used to describe grid iron anywhere outside USA (and probably Canada) where it is obvious what is being referred to, but by the same token perhaps the word football should not be used to describe soccer in any English speaking country other than UK.

golentan

2017-08-15, 06:01 PM

I'm from a metric country, and prefer the metric system. But that doesn't mean I think it is silly that the Americans use the imperial system - the cost of conversion for them would be huge, and what are the benefits really?

Trade and labelling. See also the time NASA blew up a massively expensive rocket over an imperial/metric mismatch, or the disaster that was the US model of the Chauchat gun.

Also, I guarantee any medical care in the US is handled in metric. "Give me 5 ccs, stat" = 5 cubic cm, aka a "mil" or milliliter.

BWR

2017-08-16, 12:03 AM

I'm from a metric country, and prefer the metric system. But that doesn't mean I think it is silly that the Americans use the imperial system - the cost of conversion for them would be huge, and what are the benefits really?

Being on the same standard as the rest of the world? Quite a lot, I should think. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWKTkOWC2K8)

Gnoman

2017-08-16, 12:18 AM

Trade and labelling. See also the time NASA blew up a massively expensive rocket over an imperial/metric mismatch, or the disaster that was the US model of the Chauchat gun.

The Cauchat issue had nothing to do with metric vs. imperial, but arose because of shoddy conversion to the standard US cartridge. A shoddy conversion to any cartridge more powerful (less-powerful cartridges would create a different set of issues) than the French 8mm would cause similar problems.

As for the Mars Climate Orbiter, blaming the loss purely on an imperial/metric mismatch is somewhat oversimplified. While that was the nature of the error, several more errors had to be made (and were) for it to be an issue, while you could swap any of a dozen other problems in for the original mismatch and gotten the same result. Had any of the several personnel who noticed the probe was off course been listened to, the probe would not have been lost.

golentan

2017-08-16, 12:36 AM

The Cauchat issue had nothing to do with metric vs. imperial, but arose because of shoddy conversion to the standard US cartridge. A shoddy conversion to any cartridge more powerful (less-powerful cartridges would create a different set of issues) than the French 8mm would cause similar problems.

As for the Mars Climate Orbiter, blaming the loss purely on an imperial/metric mismatch is somewhat oversimplified. While that was the nature of the error, several more errors had to be made (and were) for it to be an issue, while you could swap any of a dozen other problems in for the original mismatch and gotten the same result. Had any of the several personnel who noticed the probe was off course been listened to, the probe would not have been lost.

I was given to understand that in addition to the cartridge change, the bicycle factory where the chauchats were manufactured screwed up the metric-imperial measurements on several components, leading to them not fitting as they should have, contributing to being unable to fire more than about 3 rounds without jamming.

And yeah, it's a simplification, and other mistakes had to be made in both cases. But you know what would make it a lot harder to screw up like that when dealing with conversions between imperial and metric parts, designs, measurements, or whatever else? If we used the same units on both sides.

Gnoman

2017-08-16, 12:47 AM

I was given to understand that in addition to the cartridge change, the bicycle factory where the chauchats were manufactured screwed up the metric-imperial measurements on several components, leading to them not fitting as they should have, contributing to being unable to fire more than about 3 rounds without jamming.

You understand wrongly. There were incorrect sizings, but this was not due to any metric-imperial conversion. They were due to the measurements being conducted improperly. A conversion to 8mm Mauser would have had the same bad result due the extremely shoddy workmanship that the Gladiator factory was putting out.

And yeah, it's a simplification, and other mistakes had to be made in both cases. But you know what would make it a lot harder to screw up like that when dealing with conversions between imperial and metric parts, designs, measurements, or whatever else? If we used the same units on both sides.

The contract specified that all systems operate in metric. As soon as that clause was put into the contract, the error becomes no different from any other software bug.

golentan

2017-08-16, 01:14 AM

The contract specified that all systems operate in metric. As soon as that clause was put into the contract, the error becomes no different from any other software bug.

Why is that still not made better by not having a possible other measuring system for people to mistakenly use?

To put it another way, almost everything manufactured in the US, Mexico, or Canada has components which are manufactured in one or both of the others. Why is it to our benefit to be the odd man out, and then spend the first section of every engineering, science, or medical course of study be all about unit conversions? Why risk something going wrong because someone forgot to bust out the calculator: I saw a veterinary tech kill a dog, later determined to be by failing to do a dose conversion on their buprenorphine, do you feel comfortable knowing that human nurses are doing the same calculations when administering your medications?

Xyril

2017-08-16, 02:30 AM

Why is that still not made better by not having a possible other measuring system for people to mistakenly use?

Even within the metric system, you will have different units used at different times in the same field, and since there aren't always hard rules on which units are appropriate, you can't make assumptions about those units. True, you're marginally less likely to make a mathematical error converting feet to inches than you are converting meters to cm. However, in the examples that have been brought up, the problem hasn't been that people were messing up the math while doing conversions--it has been that people were assuming they were using one unit when they were actually using another, and thus forgot they had to convert to begin with. True, if the imperial system didn't exist, it abstractly reduces the number of possible conversions out there (I'll leave you to do the handshake problem on that one.) However, you'll still sometimes have to convert from cm to mm, or microns to angstroms. In fact, if I were inclined to play Devil's Advocate on this, I would argue that the false sense of security given by knowing that you'll never seen an imperial unit again might make people less diligent about checking that SI prefix.

Why is it to our benefit to be the odd man out, and then spend the first section of every engineering, science, or medical course of study be all about unit conversions?

It's not, and this is a bit of a straw man argument because nobody has been making that argument. Most people agree that converting to metric would, at the very least, simplify how we deal with the rest of the world. The problem is inertia--actually replacing everything in our society doesn't come without cause, and cannot happen overnight. There will be a period where those people who never have to interact with SI on a regular basis will find their lives suddenly complicated

Why risk something going wrong because someone forgot to bust out the calculator: I saw a veterinary tech kill a dog, later determined to be by failing to do a dose conversion on their buprenorphine, do you feel comfortable knowing that human nurses are doing the same calculations when administering your medications?

As someone with a bit of familiarity with pharmacology, I would say that I am not comfortable with anyone who would make that mistake doing anything at all. True, every added step is extra cognitive load, and on the aggregate, more points of failure will likely mean slightly more failures. However, if someone is my pharmacist or my anesthesiologist, I want someone who has his crap together well enough not to make that mistake, because "check if the units I'm measuring are the same units as the instructions I'm reading" is one of the easiest of the many things these guys have to check for to make sure nothing horrible happens to you. Your argument is that metric conversion is like asking someone to write his name twice on the test: It's unnecessary, and it will slightly increase the rate of failure. My argument is that I don't care--if you're the kind of person who will screw up writing your name twice, then I absolutely don't trust you to do the kind of mental work required for the rest of the exam.

druid91

2017-08-16, 06:44 AM

Trade and labelling. See also the time NASA blew up a massively expensive rocket over an imperial/metric mismatch, or the disaster that was the US model of the Chauchat gun.

Also, I guarantee any medical care in the US is handled in metric. "Give me 5 ccs, stat" = 5 cubic cm, aka a "mil" or milliliter.

The Imperial system is already defined using the metric system for compatibility.

Peelee

2017-08-16, 07:20 AM

Even then, if USA is the only country to use the imperial system, that does not make them wrong to do so.

I'm from a metric country, and prefer the metric system. But that doesn't mean I think it is silly that the Americans use the imperial system

See also the time NASA blew up a massively expensive rocket over an imperial/metric mismatch

As for the Mars Climate Orbiter, blaming the loss purely on an imperial/metric mismatch is somewhat oversimplified.

But you know what would make it a lot harder to screw up like that when dealing with conversions between imperial and metric

The Imperial system is already defined using the metric system for compatibility.

Fun fact! The United States does not use the Imperial system. We use American Customary Units. Which are heavily based on imperial, but are juuuuuuuuuuuuust slightly off.

JNAProductions

2017-08-16, 07:28 AM

Fun fact! The United States does not use the Imperial system. We use American Customary Units. Which are heavily based on imperial, but are juuuuuuuuuuuuust slightly off.

And it's still dumb!

I mean, I use it because I grew up with it. But metric is just kinda better. Makes more sense, is more widely used...

Peelee

2017-08-16, 07:50 AM

And it's still dumb!

I mean, I use it because I grew up with it. But metric is just kinda better. Makes more sense, is more widely used...

No argument here. Though I will admit, I'm also easily amused...

https://i.imgur.com/X2ULZQ5_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

Gnoman

2017-08-16, 01:22 PM

Fun fact! The United States does not use the Imperial system. We use American Customary Units. Which are heavily based on imperial, but are juuuuuuuuuuuuust slightly off.

I am aware of that, but the term is awkward enough that using the inaccurate but close enough one is easier.

It's not, and this is a bit of a straw man argument because nobody has been making that argument. Most people agree that converting to metric would, at the very least, simplify how we deal with the rest of the world. The problem is inertia--actually replacing everything in our society doesn't come without cause, and cannot happen overnight. There will be a period where those people who never have to interact with SI on a regular basis will find their lives suddenly complicated

Precisely. The financial cost of converting to SI would be immense on the national level, potentially fatal in many individual business cases, and that doesn't even consider all of the other complications where suddenly having to think in one set of terms when you've spend your entire life thinking in another would cause a problem. Most Americans have a decent understanding of the metric system, but the vast majority think in Imperial. If we see "55" on a speed limit sign, the first thought (at least at home) will always be in miles. To make matters worse, the advantages of the metric system are far more illusory in reality than they are in theory. In day to day life, and in most professional settings, you just pick a unit and work in it rather than converting. That makes the primary advantage of the metric system (that of easily converting one unit to another) largely pointless.

[/quote]
As someone with a bit of familiarity with pharmacology, I would say that I am not comfortable with anyone who would make that mistake doing anything at all. True, every added step is extra cognitive load, and on the aggregate, more points of failure will likely mean slightly more failures. However, if someone is my pharmacist or my anesthesiologist, I want someone who has his crap together well enough not to make that mistake, because "check if the units I'm measuring are the same units as the instructions I'm reading" is one of the easiest of the many things these guys have to check for to make sure nothing horrible happens to you. Your argument is that metric conversion is like asking someone to write his name twice on the test: It's unnecessary, and it will slightly increase the rate of failure. My argument is that I don't care--if you're the kind of person who will screw up writing your name twice, then I absolutely don't trust you to do the kind of mental work required for the rest of the exam.[/QUOTE]

Not only that, but it should not take long to get an instinctive feel for how much of something you should be using. If you're using 2 ounces of something instead of 2 grams, you should immediately realize that that is way too much, and double-check what you are supposed to be doing. There is enough of a difference between metric units and their non-metric equivalents that the error should always be obvious unless you are the rawest of amateurs - in which case you shouldn't be working unsupervised in the first place.

AMFV

2017-08-16, 02:10 PM

And it's still dumb!

I mean, I use it because I grew up with it. But metric is just kinda better. Makes more sense, is more widely used...

It's worth noting that metric is not necessarily more sensible for all applications. For example human weight is much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then it is in metric. The range of temperatures outside are much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then they are in metric. The imperial system excels as a common use system, it's very good for everyday applications or fairly simplistic applications. I'm a Carpenter, and trying to talk in centimeters would take way more time and be way less effective and efficient on the job site then talking in feet inches. Also inches are pretty easy to gauge by glancing at things they tend to have fairly clear reference points and I've not seen that to be the case for centimeters or meters as much. So I wouldn't have to say the whole thing is gone it just has different advantages

2D8HP

2017-08-16, 02:57 PM

When I started as an apprentice plumber (February 3rd, 2000 FWIW), I had previously worked seven years at a Honda and Kawasaki motorcycle shop, so I was used to metric sizes.

I won't soon forget the tongue lashing I received when the Journeyman asked what size socket, and I said "looks to be about 14mm".

golentan

2017-08-16, 03:15 PM

It is not a strawman because that is what we do: Kids grow up learning pounds and inches, and then when they go into a technical field they have to learn things in terms of killograms and centimeters. And it's kind of unnecessary.

You may prefer that medical fields only be populated by the sort of person who never makes a mistake, but unfortunately that sort of person doesn't exist. And nurses and doctors are already often overworked, and coming off a 20 hour shift exhaustion can mess with the most competent of people.

And if administering an injectable medication, especially one you are not using on a daily basis, a factor of 2.2 from failing to convert a patient's weight (scales often being in pounds, medication basically always in terms of mgs per kg), can be both significant and not instinctively wrong while you are holding the syringe. I've been shouted at for going "too slow" when I double check myself by some doctors in a non-emergency setting.

It's an extra point of failure, it's unnecessary, and I'm willing to say I absolutely believe it contributes to at least some of the hundreds of thousands of US malpractice deaths each year.

druid91

2017-08-16, 03:28 PM

http://i.imgur.com/wuZwmeL.png

I just thought this was somewhat relevant about the talk of Metric vs Imperial/American system.

Liquor Box

2017-08-16, 04:07 PM

It's worth noting that metric is not necessarily more sensible for all applications. For example human weight is much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then it is in metric. The range of temperatures outside are much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then they are in metric. The imperial system excels as a common use system, it's very good for everyday applications or fairly simplistic applications. I'm a Carpenter, and trying to talk in centimeters would take way more time and be way less effective and efficient on the job site then talking in feet inches. Also inches are pretty easy to gauge by glancing at things they tend to have fairly clear reference points and I've not seen that to be the case for centimeters or meters as much. So I wouldn't have to say the whole thing is gone it just has different advantages

When you say the Imperial system is "much more intuitive", surely you just mean it is more intuitive to you, because that is what you know?

Because for me (and I suspect most people who grew up with metrics) the metric system is more intuitive for all the uses you describe. Someone tells me that Mike Tyson's fighting weight was 220 pounds and it means very little, until I convert it to about 104kg - having done that I have a fair idea about his weight.

2D8HP

2017-08-16, 04:50 PM

I'd say a cup and a foot are fairly intuitive.

AMFV

2017-08-16, 05:03 PM

When you say the Imperial system is "much more intuitive", surely you just mean it is more intuitive to you, because that is what you know?

Because for me (and I suspect most people who grew up with metrics) the metric system is more intuitive for all the uses you describe. Someone tells me that Mike Tyson's fighting weight was 220 pounds and it means very little, until I convert it to about 104kg - having done that I have a fair idea about his weight.

I say it is because Brits in sporting events often still use pounds or stone for human weight. Despite having been on the metric system for longer than I've been alive. I mean that may not be universal but it's definitely present.

Xyril

2017-08-16, 06:59 PM

I say it is because Brits in sporting events often still use pounds or stone for human weight. Despite having been on the metric system for longer than I've been alive. I mean that may not be universal but it's definitely present.

This might be true, but I don't know if that relates to the... "intrinsic intuitiveness"? of the units in question. I imagine that the units in a certain range (not so small that they're difficult to estimate, not so large that that you're usually dealing with fractional units) might be more naturally intuitive than something like millimeters or leagues, but I can't really see why pounds would be more intuitive than kilograms unless you were accustomed to one or the other. This is actually pretty consistent with your assertion--sports often involve tight-knit communities that value tradition, so it's plausible that they would hold on to traditional units long after. In horse racing, for example, they continue to measure in hands, and I wouldn't be surprised if they've been doing so since before both SI and imperial units in Great Britain. I can see why they might do it. If they keep historical records or statistics, keeping the same units makes it easier to compare results. If understanding the sport benefits from an intuitive sense of units, then it's possible that when the older generation teaches the next one, it's considered easier for the students to learn a new unit than for the teacher to relearn how to communicate his knowledge in national standard units. Plus, I think a lot of communities like to distinguish themselves with trappings or terminology that sets them from everyone else.

TuggyNE

2017-08-16, 08:28 PM

It would be great if the US had already converted to metric. Most people agree on that. But the challenge of actually getting through the conversion is non-trivial.

When you say the Imperial system is "much more intuitive", surely you just mean it is more intuitive to you, because that is what you know?

Because for me (and I suspect most people who grew up with metrics) the metric system is more intuitive for all the uses you describe. Someone tells me that Mike Tyson's fighting weight was 220 pounds and it means very little, until I convert it to about 104kg - having done that I have a fair idea about his weight.

In general, I'm a big fan of metric, and use it preferentially despite growing up mostly in the US. But for temperature specifically, the fact is that Centigrade uses only 2-4 leading digits for the range of temperatures most people experience, while Fahrenheit uses all ten (and a few over). So °C requires you to care about the second digit to have the same information °F gives you in the first.

(To see why this is important, consider the limiting case of simply using Kelvins instead of °C. Same unit size, more rigorously defined base, even harder to mess up conversions — all the great advantages people always talk about for the metric system! — but you have to look at all three digits to see what approximate range you're in… 301 K is a reasonable temperature, and so is 280 K, but 208 K is a whole different story, and 380 K is no fun for anyone.)

The others don't have such a specific advantage, so I don't know that there's any real objective intuitive advantage there.

BWR

2017-08-17, 01:15 AM

I'd say a cup and a foot are fairly intuitive.

Considering the great variety there is in cup sizes (ha) and feet, intuitive and mostly useless.

paddyfool

2017-08-17, 04:15 AM

It would be great if the US had already converted to metric. Most people agree on that. But the challenge of actually getting through the conversion is non-trivial.

In general, I'm a big fan of metric, and use it preferentially despite growing up mostly in the US. But for temperature specifically, the fact is that Centigrade uses only 2-4 leading digits for the range of temperatures most people experience, while Fahrenheit uses all ten (and a few over). So °C requires you to care about the second digit to have the same information °F gives you in the first.

(To see why this is important, consider the limiting case of simply using Kelvins instead of °C. Same unit size, more rigorously defined base, even harder to mess up conversions — all the great advantages people always talk about for the metric system! — but you have to look at all three digits to see what approximate range you're in… 301 K is a reasonable temperature, and so is 280 K, but 208 K is a whole different story, and 380 K is no fun for anyone.)

The others don't have such a specific advantage, so I don't know that there's any real objective intuitive advantage there.

Eh, I think that only really factors in as an advantage as that's what you're used to working with. For me, with weather temperature etc, the ranges go roughly as follows:

>50: Exceptionally hot
40 to 50: Really hot
30 to 40: Hot (includes normal body temperature at around 38)
20 to 30: Pleasantly warm
20: Normal room temperature
10 to 20: Comfortably cool
0 to 10: Chilly
0: Freezing point of water
-10 to 0: Somewhat below freezing
-20 to -10: Well below freezing
etc

So I get handy single digit information out of these, whereas the equivalents in Fahrenheit don't really mean as much to me.

Chen

2017-08-17, 06:52 AM

Eh, I think that only really factors in as an advantage as that's what you're used to working with. For me, with weather temperature etc, the ranges go roughly as follows:

>50: Exceptionally hot
40 to 50: Really hot
30 to 40: Hot (includes normal body temperature at around 38)
20 to 30: Pleasantly warm
20: Normal room temperature
10 to 20: Comfortably cool
0 to 10: Chilly
0: Freezing point of water
-10 to 0: Somewhat below freezing
-20 to -10: Well below freezing
etc

So I get handy single digit information out of these, whereas the equivalents in Fahrenheit don't really mean as much to me.

Eh the difference between 0 and 10 and 10 and 20 are significant enough that the second digit matters a fair bit there I'd say. 10 degrees I can walk with a small windbreaker or no jacket, while wearing short sleeves. I wouldn't do the same at even 5 deg and definitely not at 0. Similarly that windbreaker I wear at 10 I definitely wouldn't be wearing at 20.

2D8HP

2017-08-17, 07:13 AM

20 to 30: Pleasantly warm

Celsius?

Okay..., 20 degrees Celsius is about 68 degrees Fahrenheit, so yes that would be pleasantly warm in San Francisco, 30 degrees Celsius, however, is about 86 degrees Fahrenheit!

:yuk:

When it gets that hot I feel cheated to be paying Bay area housing prices.

Too dang hot!

snowblizz

2017-08-17, 07:50 AM

It would be great if the US had already converted to metric. Most people agree on that. But the challenge of actually getting through the conversion is non-trivial.
You/they already started doing it once. I visited some aquaintances in the US once and one of them had an old car with a Mph *and* Kmh speedometer.

It's just that followthrough wasn't exactly stellar. I think it was around the time of President Carter and his impopularity was somehow tied up in it? I don't remember the specifics.

I will have to say though, for every single measure someone says "well Imperial is more intuitive it's much faster in Imperial" or something like that I could say exactly the same thing about metric. It's a matter of what you are used to. I used to play Warhammer and it measured everything in Imperial, however, it didn't take that long for me to be able to gauge distances within the game relative to the game's Imperial scale and measures.

Imperial and carpentry, again can't really see the appeal. I feel a mm is more "accurate" (smaller unit) than fractions of an inch and since good carpenters should have 10 fingers wouldn't counting to 10 be easier? Why mess about with fractions of 8? I think they finalyl gave up on that in stockmarkets eventually, and I don't think the US has ever had 12 pennies to the cent and 8 cent to the dollar or something like the British system used to be (which is why stocks would be in fractions 8s and 16s)

The temperautre one e.g. baffles me greatly because the Celsius scale has rather important implications for human interaction with nature vis a vis water and it's properties. 0 C means there's gonna ice on the roads e.g. so how is tying this switch to going from positive to negative not critical information? That's my main gripe with Fahrenheit. It's so illogical to me I have difficulty grasping how anyone can work this system when positive and negative numbers mean the same (ie it's cold).

AMFV

2017-08-17, 08:33 AM

I will have to say though, for every single measure someone says "well Imperial is more intuitive it's much faster in Imperial" or something like that I could say exactly the same thing about metric. It's a matter of what you are used to. I used to play Warhammer and it measured everything in Imperial, however, it didn't take that long for me to be able to gauge distances within the game relative to the game's Imperial scale and measures.

Well the thing is I'm not saying that metric is more intuitive or Imperials more intuitive in a general sense. I am saying that in case of specific uses Imperial will be more intuitive than metric and vis versa. Again I already provided the examples I'm familiar with. For human weight it is easier to judge the difference between different humans when you're talking in poundage than kilograms, this is because there's a larger range of numbers so it's easier to gauge the difference a 50 lb difference is pretty easy to think about where has a 20-kilogram difference even though it's the same is is is harder to process when you're dealing with human weights. I'll note that my example was strong man where the British people were using pounds and stone for weight, rather than kilos, and his most the tradition of that sport comes from Eastern Europe at least at that time when I was watching it. There's no traditional affiliation with pounds or stones, so the reason people would use it is because it's more inherently intuitive to them.

Imperial and carpentry, again can't really see the appeal. I feel a mm is more "accurate" (smaller unit) than fractions of an inch and since good carpenters should have 10 fingers wouldn't counting to 10 be easier? Why mess about with fractions of 8? I think they finalyl gave up on that in stockmarkets eventually, and I don't think the US has ever had 12 pennies to the cent and 8 cent to the dollar or something like the British system used to be (which is why stocks would be in fractions 8s and 16s)

What the difference is that an eighth of an inch is a very easy thing to see with your eyes. Like for many jobs your margin of error will be an eighth of an inch to maybe a quarter of an inch, you can see that with your eyes you can eyeball that fairly easily. So it's harder if say your margin of error is 3 cm, which if you're working in fabrication or in engineering you don't have to worry as much about that, because you don't have to eyeball things you have calipers, and exactness of your measurements is far more important whereas in the field it's more important to be able to intuitively gauge what something is by glancing at it immediately. And a lot of boards are less than 3 foot long, so a meter isn't very intuitive length for most things you're building whereas a foot is pretty freaking accurate to most things it's really uncommon that I would that I we need to cut an 8-inch board or a 6-inch board where I wouldn't be able to just get something close and have it be good enough, however there are a lot of times when I have to cut a 2-foot board or a 1 foot 6 inch board and that's where it's good to have the imperial system because those measurements are more intuitive.

It's also worth noting that people altar in the imperial system when it doesn't work as well for something. Surveyors and Engineers for example, use tenths of a foot rather than inches so instead of breaking a foot down into 12 inches they break the foot down into 10 tenths. So you can already see that there are changes when something is easier one way.

The temperautre one e.g. baffles me greatly because the Celsius scale has rather important implications for human interaction with nature vis a vis water and it's properties. 0 C means there's gonna ice on the roads e.g. so how is tying this switch to going from positive to negative not critical information? That's my main gripe with Fahrenheit. It's so illogical to me I have difficulty grasping how anyone can work this system when positive and negative numbers mean the same (ie it's cold).

Well most people interact with air temperature a lot more than water temperature, usually the only time water temperature becomes really important is when you're figuring out if something is freezing. And while it's slightly more intuitive in metric, that's not particularly hard to remember one number 32. And it's as people stated much easier to convey ranges of temperatures in terms of how you're going interact with them.

warty goblin

2017-08-17, 08:35 AM

Imperial and carpentry, again can't really see the appeal. I feel a mm is more "accurate" (smaller unit) than fractions of an inch and since good carpenters should have 10 fingers wouldn't counting to 10 be easier? Why mess about with fractions of 8? I think they finalyl gave up on that in stockmarkets eventually, and I don't think the US has ever had 12 pennies to the cent and 8 cent to the dollar or something like the British system used to be (which is why stocks would be in fractions 8s and 16s)

The standard operation in carpentry is halving something, often repeatedly. This is why pretty much all tapes, squares and rulers are gradiated in 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc, because halving these numbers is very easy, even for weird things like 17/32. Same with cooking, which is why it's powers of two all the way from tablespoon to quart.

Obviously you can set up a metric-based measurement device that's gradiated in reciprocal powers of two of a kilogram or cubic centimeter or whatever. However so far as I can tell for a lot of day to day measurements, there's absolutely no utility gain in having a system based around powers of ten. I've never changed the scale of a recipe by a power of ten, and I used to cook for wedding banquets.

People tend to create systems of measurement that are practical for whatever they're being used for. SI units are very handy if you're sciencing, not necessarily the most convenient choice when you're cutting a mortise.

(Besides which, nobody will ever come up with as delightfully baffling yet tterly practical a measurement as shotgun gauges)

2D8HP

2017-08-17, 08:43 AM

Imperial and carpentry, again can't really see the appeal. I feel a mm is more "accurate" (smaller unit) than fractions of an inch and since good carpenters should have 10 fingers wouldn't counting to 10 be easier?

It's easier to calculate a third of 12 (4), than a third of ten (3.333333333...).

If we had a base 12 system on the other hand....

Vote Greyview!

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-17, 11:23 AM

However, you'll still sometimes have to convert from cm to mm, or microns to angstroms. In fact, if I were inclined to play Devil's Advocate on this, I would argue that the false sense of security given by knowing that you'll never seen an imperial unit again might make people less diligent about checking that SI prefix.
I reckon you don't deal with SI a lot? I have to say, having read a lot of science literature since I was a little kid, and given my little understanding of non-SI measures; I find the concept of "converting cm to mm" very, very odd. Like, I feel I'm talking with an alien. Yes, you can technically call it a "conversion", mathematically speaking, but, you don't usually say "Let's convert this decades into years..." for the same reason you don't "transform" hundreds into units. I don't know, specifically speaking the sole advantage SI has over other systems is precisely internal consistency. Converting joules into newtons is an actual mental process for me, but converting grams into kilograms is not at all. The same goes for microns and armstrongs, if you know the difference between a billion and a decimal unit; then the mental process is just as simple.

The problem is inertia--actually replacing everything in our society doesn't come without cause, and cannot happen overnight. There will be a period where those people who never have to interact with SI on a regular basis will find their lives suddenly complicated
I agree it can't happen overnight, and it's not the most pressing matter at hand. But it is still silly to stick with a system just cause "many people are already used to it". For that matter, many scientists are used to SI more than the other, and the importance of handling units for them far exceed the problems common folks will come across. I don't know how it is when US folks go to the market and to translate ounces to something else, or a 10 foot pole that only comes in inches; but we SI-people don't care in the least because m-dm-cm-mm and kg-g-mg is the same freaking thing. We don't care at all. And that's why I find funny when SI detractors stick to their horses as if they were defending Fort Knox

It's worth noting that metric is not necessarily more sensible for all applications. For example human weight is much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then it is in metric. The range of temperatures outside are much more intuitive in the Imperial or American System then they are in metric. The imperial system excels as a common use system, it's very good for everyday applications or fairly simplistic applications. I'm a Carpenter, and trying to talk in centimeters would take way more time and be way less effective and efficient on the job site then talking in feet inches. Also inches are pretty easy to gauge by glancing at things they tend to have fairly clear reference points and I've not seen that to be the case for centimeters or meters as much. So I wouldn't have to say the whole thing is gone it just has different advantages
Funny, only time in my life I had to dealt with inches also was in construction. Not for actual work, but to buy tools and other thingies. It always amused me that. Anyway, no, "intuitive" is only for you. I assure you, we SI people don't find our own system confusing in the least. There's a reason scientist use it too.

I just thought this was somewhat relevant about the talk of Metric vs Imperial/American system.
It's funny because last time I heard an American proposing the change to SI; it was Neil deGrasse Tyson :smalltongue:

It would be great if the US had already converted to metric. Most people agree on that. But the challenge of actually getting through the conversion is non-trivial.

In general, I'm a big fan of metric, and use it preferentially despite growing up mostly in the US. But for temperature specifically, the fact is that Centigrade uses only 2-4 leading digits for the range of temperatures most people experience, while Fahrenheit uses all ten (and a few over). So °C requires you to care about the second digit to have the same information °F gives you in the first.

(To see why this is important, consider the limiting case of simply using Kelvins instead of °C. Same unit size, more rigorously defined base, even harder to mess up conversions — all the great advantages people always talk about for the metric system! — but you have to look at all three digits to see what approximate range you're in… 301 K is a reasonable temperature, and so is 280 K, but 208 K is a whole different story, and 380 K is no fun for anyone.)

The others don't have such a specific advantage, so I don't know that there's any real objective intuitive advantage there.
Kelvin has the same advantages of Celcius because they share the same scaling. It's on the numbers where they differ, and a simple sum can fix that. It's the most simple conversion there is.

Anyway... I don't know how you take temperature of people; but I only care about the last 2 numbers (last unit and a decimal). See, human body is normally at 36-37º. That's healthy temp. if it goes lower than 6, you should put on a coat or something. Also, hypothermia: check your toes. If it's 7.n it requires further checking. If it's 8.n or higher, go to the doctor ASAP. If it is 0.x better call the doctor and an ambulance. Any variation on the initial number doesn't mean crap, because <35 you are already a corpse; >43 you are a freaking mutant. Only the last two numbers are relevant. I don't see the advantage in either.

Chen

2017-08-17, 12:31 PM

Anyway... I don't know how you take temperature of people; but I only care about the last 2 numbers (last unit and a decimal). See, human body is normally at 36-37º. That's healthy temp. if it goes lower than 6, you should put on a coat or something. Also, hypothermia: check your toes. If it's 7.n it requires further checking. If it's 8.n or higher, go to the doctor ASAP. If it is 0.x better call the doctor and an ambulance. Any variation on the initial number doesn't mean crap, because <35 you are already a corpse; >43 you are a freaking mutant. Only the last two numbers are relevant. I don't see the advantage in either.

I assume they were talking more about weather because the need to take the temperature of humans is pretty limited for most everyday use.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-17, 02:41 PM

I assume they were talking more about weather because the need to take the temperature of humans is pretty limited for most everyday use.
He said 2-4 degrees (Celsius). That's an amplitude only common on a very warm, humid day on a tropical zone. Most people living in a temperate zone regularly experience a daily variation of 7-12 Celsius degrees, when weather isn't particularly humid. So either he lives in the Caribbean (or a zone where for some reason day and night share similar temperatures), or he wasn't speaking about the weather. 2 degrees is too little to be concerned about in any scale anyway.

AMFV

2017-08-17, 03:23 PM

Funny, only time in my life I had to dealt with inches also was in construction. Not for actual work, but to buy tools and other thingies. It always amused me that. Anyway, no, "intuitive" is only for you. I assure you, we SI people don't find our own system confusing in the least. There's a reason scientist use it too.

You are ignoring the vast majority of what I said. First off in carpentry and constructional and engineers and surveyors use a system of measurement divisible by tens. It is a lot less useful to people that might have to cut a board into 3 equal pieces or four equal pieces, as others have pointed out. It's also really easy to double quickly even if the numbers are odd numbers, which is not necessarily the case for a system of tense particularly if you have to double and double and double something like saying for laying something out.

One of the other major advantages of the imperial system is that it has alternative units of measurement which are intuitive for different things. For example in the metric system and in the imperial system a meter or yard is roughly one human pace for the average person that makes it extremely intuitive to use as a measurement of distance especially walking distance or running distance. However unlike the metric system inches are pretty intuitive to use for how big a board should be, not so much centimeters or millimeters, and I've already discussed the difference between feet and and meters in those terms.

Again surveyors and Engineers use a system of tenths Carpenters use a system of twelfths there's a reason why when both systems are available some people are using one and some people are using the other.

It's funny because last time I heard an American proposing the change to SI; it was Neil deGrasse Tyson :smalltongue:

Which is funny to me because I was unaware that Neil deGrasse Tyson was involved with NASA in any way, or that he had landed on the moon.

And again the science are a field where metric is generally superior. My point was that this is not always the case in all fields.

thorgrim29

2017-08-17, 03:46 PM

Canada is weird about units... We're officially metric but because of inertia and american cultural influence/pollution we still use imperial for a few things, mainly height and weight. Some make sense and some are very random. Like temperature is in celcius unless you're like 80 years old OR you're asking about a pool's water temperature. Water comes in liters but beer and liquor come in pints and ounces, things like that. Honestly I think metric is better for many reasons but I'd also be happy if it was just one or the other...

Liquor Box

2017-08-17, 06:00 PM

I say it is because Brits in sporting events often still use pounds or stone for human weight. Despite having been on the metric system for longer than I've been alive. I mean that may not be universal but it's definitely present.

How does that make it more intuitive? I mean if you are relying on which measurement is more popular worldwide pounds and stone lose hands down to kilograms.

Fair enough that its present,nobody is denying that. But I can't understand why you would say that the imperial system is more intuitive, except to someone who is used to it.

AMFV

2017-08-17, 06:22 PM

How does that make it more intuitive? I mean if you are relying on which measurement is more popular worldwide pounds and stone lose hands down to kilograms.

Fair enough that its present,nobody is denying that. But I can't understand why you would say that the imperial system is more intuitive, except to someone who is used to it.
Well again it depends what you are actually referring to. There are field where the imperial system is more intuitive or more naturally easy to use.

The case of the British sportscasters is important because first Britain traditionally uses metric so that suggests in this use case it's probably more intuitive to use the other. Basically when they're talking about human weights and they have a choice of which they rather use they would rather use Imperial or British in this case since you have actual stone weight measurements.

Edit: and again I went over in my own life how you can be more intuitive with the imperial system over the metric system. There are certain things that the imperial system does very well that the metric system does not. And vis versa. For example the imperial system as a lot of finicky units of measurement which is useful if you have to measure a lot of things that are different in terms of how you would conceptualize them. A metric you have centimeters and then meters and that's a huge gap so it's very hard to conceptualize something that would be say 6 inches long in metric whereas in Imperial it's easy to conceptualize that. It's also easier to subdivide feet than it is meters since feet are divisible by 3, 4, and 2. Rather than by 5 and 2.

thorgrim29

2017-08-17, 06:51 PM

Peelee

2017-08-17, 07:19 PM

Celsius?

Okay..., 20 degrees Celsius is about 68 degrees Fahrenheit, so yes that would be pleasantly warm in San Francisco, 30 degrees Celsius, however, is about 86 degrees Fahrenheit!

:yuk:

When it gets that hot I feel cheated to be paying Bay area housing prices.

Too dang hot!

68? Pleasantly warm?

....so, are there a lot of igloos around the Bat area?

AMFV

2017-08-17, 07:23 PM

2 things, the SI (from système international so SI system would be a tautology) is french, the reason the Imperial System is called imperial is because it was the British Empire's.

Also you have decimeters which are 10% of a meter (or 10 cm) so that takes care of that, besides for ballpark measures purposes a foot is pretty close to a third of a meter, so I'd assume that's what they use in fully SI countries for a rough approximation of a foot. I'm not blaming you BTW AMFV, your brain is wired for american units at this point, nothing you can do about it, but it would be just as wired for SI if you'd grown up in say Italy.

Yeah but just having somebody say cut me a board that's one third of a meter or 333 cm is probably not as practical as saying cut me a board that's one foot. Also I've never heard of decimeters ever being used, I'm aware that they exist as a unit of measurement. But I don't think they see much use.

Also 10cm is way bigger than 1/8 of an inch which is the most important ballpark you can possibly have. Since that tends to be the margin of error you are allowed, although for some things it's a 1/16th.

Also out of all of the people here I'm probably the person who does the most measuring on a daily basis, like by far I would imagine. I have used metric previously, and there are things that is very good at but there other things that it's simply not as good at as Imperial.

I'll note that many people have given concrete examples of things Imperial does better than SI. For example it's easy to divide whereas SI is not, and people tend to be ignoring those in favor of whatever I guess their third grade science teacher told them about how we should all switch over to metric.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the metric system, I am saying that there are certain things that the imperial system is better suited for and that's very difficult to disprove. Again you have use cases where people who were brought up with the metric system use the imperial system because it is easier. And you have cases for example we have a system of tenths in the United States as well we have tenths of a foot, which again is used where it's better to use that but not where it isn't.

2D8HP

2017-08-17, 07:30 PM

Canada is weird about units......

.....Water comes in liters but beer and liquor come in pints and ounces, things like that. Honestly I think metric is better for many reasons but I'd also be happy if it was just one or the other...

...The case of the British sportscasters is important because first Britain traditionally uses metric so that suggests in this use case ...

IIRC, in the novel 1984 (which I haven't read since 1981 or '82), an old "prol's" chief complaint about the "IngSoc" rule of "Air Strip One" is that he can't get a drink in a "pint glass".

68? Pleasantly warm?

....so, are there a lot of igloos around the Bay area?
:amused:

No, that's the beauty of it, in a given year, even as much as ten days that it gets below freezing (32 degrees Fahrenheit, or 0 degrees Celsius) is extremely rare.

In some neighborhoods in San Francisco (and some nearby communities like Pacifica) it's a good bet that the temperature will be in the 50's (Fahrenheit), day or night, winter or summer.

Peelee

2017-08-17, 07:57 PM

No, that's the beauty of it, in a given year, even as much as ten days that it gets below freezing (32 degrees Fahrenheit, or 0 degrees Celsius) is extremely rare.

In some neighborhoods in San Francisco (and some nearby communities like Pacifica) it's a good bet that the temperature will be in the 50's (Fahrenheit), day or night, winter or summer.

Look, the 50s may not make ice, but that's still freezing.

Right now, at about 8 EST, the sun has gone down and it's a nice balmy 86º (feels like 93º, according to weather.com). 66% humidity feels wonderful - not too muggy, not too dry. It's a delightful evening.

Meanwhile, you're at 64, feels like 62. It's still summer, man! I'd be surprised if it was even dark yet for you. You shouldn't be needing a sweater already. STOP THE MADNESS!

2D8HP

2017-08-17, 08:20 PM

Meanwhile, you're at 64, feels like 62. It's still summer, man! I'd be surprised if it was even dark yet for you. You shouldn't be needing a sweater already. STOP THE MADNESS!

:sigh:

Unfortunetly your right, a heat wave is forecasted for tomorrow that will get us into the miserably hot 70's (22 to 26 Celsius to the non moon-walking lands).

Hopefully it won't last in The City (not a city, The City, or "The City and County" as we who work for it call it) of beautiful views, and wonderful weather (that mostly smells like pee).

Liquor Box

2017-08-17, 09:04 PM

Well again it depends what you are actually referring to. There are field where the imperial system is more intuitive or more naturally easy to use.

The case of the British sportscasters is important because first Britain traditionally uses metric so that suggests in this use case it's probably more intuitive to use the other. Basically when they're talking about human weights and they have a choice of which they rather use they would rather use Imperial or British in this case since you have actual stone weight measurements.

Edit: and again I went over in my own life how you can be more intuitive with the imperial system over the metric system. There are certain things that the imperial system does very well that the metric system does not. And vis versa. For example the imperial system as a lot of finicky units of measurement which is useful if you have to measure a lot of things that are different in terms of how you would conceptualize them. A metric you have centimeters and then meters and that's a huge gap so it's very hard to conceptualize something that would be say 6 inches long in metric whereas in Imperial it's easy to conceptualize that. It's also easier to subdivide feet than it is meters since feet are divisible by 3, 4, and 2. Rather than by 5 and 2.

When you talk about your own life you are only talking about what is more intuitive to you, and what is intuitive to you will be largely shaped by the units of measurement you are most familiar with. There is nothing inherent in the practice of carpentry that suddenly makes imperial measurement more intuitive. Personally i find it very hard to conceptualise 6 inches, but very easy to conceptualise 15cm - that is nto because the metric system is more intuitive for carpentry either, but simply because what I am used to.

As for English sportscasters, I suggest that they tend to be older and use imperial measurements because that is what they learned in school - again more intuitive to them because that's what the know, rather than inhrenetly more intuitive. Generally England uses the metric system for classifying sports players height and weight just like most of the rest of the world
http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/mako-vunipola/

Cazero

2017-08-18, 12:31 AM

Yeah but just having somebody say cut me a board that's one third of a meter or 333 cm is probably not as practical as saying cut me a board that's one foot.
Cut me a 3.28084 feet board. I mean 1 meter. Wichever unit has a nice looking number is going to be wichever unit you're starting from.

Also I've never heard of decimeters ever being used, I'm aware that they exist as a unit of measurement. But I don't think they see much use.
Only because two digits numbers aren't scary in the slightest, so people usualy use centimeters or meters with a single decimal digit instead.

BWR

2017-08-18, 03:52 AM

Well again it depends what you are actually referring to. There are field where the imperial system is more intuitive or more naturally easy to use.

The case of the British sportscasters is important because first Britain traditionally uses metric so that suggests in this use case it's probably more intuitive to use the other. Basically when they're talking about human weights and they have a choice of which they rather use they would rather use Imperial or British in this case since you have actual stone weight measurements.

Edit: and again I went over in my own life how you can be more intuitive with the imperial system over the metric system. There are certain things that the imperial system does very well that the metric system does not. And vis versa. For example the imperial system as a lot of finicky units of measurement which is useful if you have to measure a lot of things that are different in terms of how you would conceptualize them. A metric you have centimeters and then meters and that's a huge gap so it's very hard to conceptualize something that would be say 6 inches long in metric whereas in Imperial it's easy to conceptualize that. It's also easier to subdivide feet than it is meters since feet are divisible by 3, 4, and 2. Rather than by 5 and 2.

I have to agree with Liquor Box: it's only intuitive to you because that's what you are used to and use most. If you grow up using metric, that's what is intuitive to use. Your reason for why Imperial is better smack of rationalization rather than any actual universal truth. Train yourself properly to do things in metric and you will find it equally easy and useful. Most of us don't really find decimal places intimidating (meters are divisible by all numbers, not just 5 and 2), nor is it a problem to remember a two digit number rather than a single digit (and if you get into fractions of inches, that's far worse than metric can ever be).

The Imperial system is, sadly used for a few things around here, like carpentry or the length of boats. Even in carpentry, I believe it's pretty much only the size of boards. This isn't because Imperial is so intuitive, it's because it was a standard used elsewhere and imported. Likewise with boats. If people get good at measuring things by eye in Imperial it isn't because it is an intuitive system, it is because people get good at things they do regularly.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 06:08 AM

The Imperial system is, sadly used for a few things around here, like carpentry or the length of boats. Even in carpentry, I believe it's pretty much only the size of boards.

I'll accept American units for board sizes if they ever decide to be accurate. If I go buy a 2x4, it sure as hell ain't 2 inch by 4 inch. Now, I may not be that skilled at woodworking yet, but I'm pretty damn sure I can at least make a torch and pitchfork.

Chen

2017-08-18, 06:46 AM

He said 2-4 degrees (Celsius). That's an amplitude only common on a very warm, humid day on a tropical zone. Most people living in a temperate zone regularly experience a daily variation of 7-12 Celsius degrees, when weather isn't particularly humid. So either he lives in the Caribbean (or a zone where for some reason day and night share similar temperatures), or he wasn't speaking about the weather. 2 degrees is too little to be concerned about in any scale anyway.

He said Celsius only uses 2-4 leading digits in the temperature change people normally experience. Not 2-4 degrees. For everyday usage this is pretty close to correct (depending on if you include negatives in there or not). Here we have some wild swings in temperature over the year but the range is still -40 to 40 more or less. Fahrenheit you'd be -40 to 110.

AMFV

2017-08-18, 08:47 AM

When you talk about your own life you are only talking about what is more intuitive to you, and what is intuitive to you will be largely shaped by the units of measurement you are most familiar with. There is nothing inherent in the practice of carpentry that suddenly makes imperial measurement more intuitive. Personally i find it very hard to conceptualise 6 inches, but very easy to conceptualise 15cm - that is nto because the metric system is more intuitive for carpentry either, but simply because what I am used to.

Well, I used a lot of metric when I was in school. And then when I became a carpenter I had to use a lot of imperial. It's worth noting that I've had experience with both. Most people CANNOT conceptualize 6", because they don't work with that, they think they could, but they'd probably be an inch or so off either way.

It's also worth noting that I worked and studied surveying for a while, so I've had some experience with tenths of feet.

As for English sportscasters, I suggest that they tend to be older and use imperial measurements because that is what they learned in school - again more intuitive to them because that's what the know, rather than inhrenetly more intuitive. Generally England uses the metric system for classifying sports players height and weight just like most of the rest of the world
http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/mako-vunipola/

Yes, but not when talking about it. Also people in the UK often refer to their weight in pounds or stones when talking or being interviewed. Even people who were too young to have grown up on that system.

Cut me a 3.28084 feet board. I mean 1 meter. Wichever unit has a nice looking number is going to be wichever unit you're starting from.

You mean 3' 3 5/8" heavy? That's really easy to cut. Whereas .28084 is very difficult. Again imperial is much easier to subdivide. Because it's base 12, base 8, and base 16s. Seriously this is not hard to understand.

Also you're missing the point again, you don't need as many boards that are 3' 3 5/8" heavy on a job, you need a bunch that are one foot or two foot, or 16".

Only because two digits numbers aren't scary in the slightest, so people usualy use centimeters or meters with a single decimal digit instead.

That doesn't get you within an 1/8th bud. So whatever you'd be making would be completely messed up. Way worse if you're building a cabinet or furniture. Where you have to have things within a sixteenth.

I have to agree with Liquor Box: it's only intuitive to you because that's what you are used to and use most. If you grow up using metric, that's what is intuitive to use. Your reason for why Imperial is better smack of rationalization rather than any actual universal truth. Train yourself properly to do things in metric and you will find it equally easy and useful. Most of us don't really find decimal places intimidating (meters are divisible by all numbers, not just 5 and 2), nor is it a problem to remember a two digit number rather than a single digit (and if you get into fractions of inches, that's far worse than metric can ever be).

Fractions are much easier to use when laying things out than decimals are. That's why people use them in carpentry. And no, they aren't equally easy, because people who are trained to use tenths of a foot still switch over. Why are you guys ignoring half of what the only person here who actually does this sort of thing for a living is saying, and then inserting your own stuff.

Yes, it's possible to divide ten into thirds. But it's really difficult to measure .3333333333333333333 on a fricking tape. Whereas measuring 1/4 inch, or 3" on a tape is really fast, and way more accurate. That would be why people that use that.

The Imperial system is, sadly used for a few things around here, like carpentry or the length of boats. Even in carpentry, I believe it's pretty much only the size of boards. This isn't because Imperial is so intuitive, it's because it was a standard used elsewhere and imported. Likewise with boats. If people get good at measuring things by eye in Imperial it isn't because it is an intuitive system, it is because people get good at things they do regularly.

Man, that's really odd, that for the thing that I said imperial was better for, people use it even in countries that use metric. That seems almost like that would prove my point.

I'll accept American units for board sizes if they ever decide to be accurate. If I go buy a 2x4, it sure as hell ain't 2 inch by 4 inch. Now, I may not be that skilled at woodworking yet, but I'm pretty damn sure I can at least make a torch and pitchfork.

It is accurate a 2 x 4. Just doesn't actually mean that it's 2 x 4, it's 1 1/2" by 3 1/2". They're always that, like not even an 1/8" off. Lengthwise you usually have a couple extra sixteenths, mostly because when you cut the board into different divisions you'll wind up taking an 1/8" off every time because of the width of the blade.

Eldan

2017-08-18, 09:30 AM

Chen

2017-08-18, 09:47 AM

Fractions are much easier to use when laying things out than decimals are. That's why people use them in carpentry. And no, they aren't equally easy, because people who are trained to use tenths of a foot still switch over. Why are you guys ignoring half of what the only person here who actually does this sort of thing for a living is saying, and then inserting your own stuff.

I work in aerospace and use imperial units for the most part. Decimals are still used for almost anything rather than fractions. I don't see what fractions or decimals have to do with the measurement system at all in fact.

Yes, it's possible to divide ten into thirds. But it's really difficult to measure .3333333333333333333 on a fricking tape. Whereas measuring 1/4 inch, or 3" on a tape is really fast, and way more accurate. That would be why people that use that.

This depends entirely on how your tape is delinated. Sure if its setup with marks every 1/8 of an inch it'll be easy to measure things in that basis. It'll still be pretty hard to measure 1/3 of an inch though. Again how is this relevant? If you build things to be within the commonly used delinations in a particular measurement system, of course it will be easy to measure them using the same system. That's basically a tautology. And it frankly has nothing to do with the system itself.

Cazero

2017-08-18, 09:53 AM

You mean 3' 3 5/8" heavy? That's really easy to cut. Whereas .28084 is very difficult.
What a complicated number. I mean a simple and straightforward 1 meter, wich becomes a stupidly difficult number in imperial. That's the whole point : metric numbers look weird once converted to imperial, and imperial numbers look weird once converted to metric. It cuts both ways.

Again imperial is much easier to subdivide. Because it's base 12, base 8, and base 16s. Seriously this is not hard to understand.
Every base have numbers for wich it's easy to subdivide. And we're not talking about pi here, we don't have to bend over backward to adapt the system to the numbers. We can simply adapt the numbers to the system and use multiples of whatever numbers we want to be able to divide by. I'm pretty sure carpenters working in metric do exactly that.

AMFV

2017-08-18, 10:28 AM

But see, that's only because for some weird reason, carpentry uses imperial standards in a lot of countries. I just looked it up online, our standard boards are apparently 12 by 2.4 cm. And the 2.4 is really only because that's about an inch. Our equivalent of 2x4 seems to be 24 by 48 mm.

If the American standard wasn't there, we'd live quite happily with 10 cm by 2 cm boards and 25 by 50 mm laths.

Same for the one third boards. 33.3 cm is exact enough for almost anything you need in carpentry, I'd bet.

So people in metric countries are often using imperial for carpentry. Case. Closed.

Seriously the only actual carpenter here has stated that imperial is better for it. And apparently people who are in the trade all over the world agree.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 10:31 AM

It is accurate a 2 x 4. Just doesn't actually mean that it's 2 x 4, it's 1 1/2" by 3 1/2".
Let me rephrase my complaint.

Why's it called a 2x4?

2D8HP

2017-08-18, 10:52 AM

As I said before, if we had a dozenal (duodecimal, base 12) instead of a decimal (base 10) system, I think metric would be better, but I do have a story of where metric may have been better:

The Foreman shouted out (because it was loud at the site) the length of pipe he wanted to the apprentice (me);

Skip: "Make it ....."

Me: "Make it what?"

Skip: " ....."

Me: "WHAT?"

Skip: " ....."

Me: "WHAT?"

Skip: "NINE, TWO"

Me:*cut's a 10 foot, and half an inch length of pipe down to be 9' 2" (nine feet and two inches) long*

Skip: "DAMNIT, WHAT THE HELL LENGTH IS THIS?!"

Me: "NINE FOOT, TWO SIR"

Skip: *slaps forehead* "NINETYTWO INCHES!!!."

Me: "oops?"

Nod for Greyview

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-08-18, 11:24 AM

So people in metric countries are often using imperial for carpentry. Case. Closed.

"Medical professionals the world over depend on metric to not kill people"
"Sure, but carpenters use imperial. Case closed".

As arguments go, not the best one I have ever heard.

Neither, for that matter, is any based on how "intuitive" they are, since said "intuition" is actually familiarity. No metric country fails to understand how warm it is just because they use Celsius.

But conversion is a big issue. From my own experience, trying to figure out just how much salt/sugar/etc. there is in a container in the US is rendered almost impossible when some give it to me by the "cup", others by the "ounce" and others by the "spoon" (and probably others in other absurd metrics I am forgetting), and to convert from one to the other so I can compare is practically impossible without a calculator.

I like to cook, and every time I come across an American recipe it is a comedy of errors that cannot help but remind me of Gaiman/Pratchett's old dig at silly pre-decimal British currency:

NOTE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE AND AMERICANS: One shilling = Five Pee. It helps to understand the antique finances of the Witchfinder Army if you know the original British monetary system:

Two farthings = One Ha'penny. Two ha'pennies = One Penny. Three pennies = A Thrupenny Bit. Two Thrupences = A Sixpence. Two Sixpences = One Shilling, or Bob. Two Bob = A Florin. One Florin and one Sixpence = Half a Crown. Four Half Crowns = Ten Bob Note. Two Ten Bob Notes = One Pound (or 240 pennies). One Pound and One Shilling = One Guinea.

The British resisted decimalized currency for a long time because they thought it was too complicated.

You tell me how the imperial volume and weight system is not the same joke with slightly different numbers.

Grey Wolf

AMFV

2017-08-18, 11:58 AM

Let me rephrase my complaint.

Why's it called a 2x4?

So they can sound like you're getting more.

As I said before, if we had a dozenal (duodecimal, base 12) instead of a decimal (base 10) system, I think metric would be better, but I do have a story of where metric may have been better:

The Foreman shouted out (because it was loud at the site) the length of pipe he wanted to the apprentice (me);

Skip: "Make it ....."

Me: "Make it what?"

Skip: " ....."

Me: "WHAT?"

Skip: " ....."

Me: "WHAT?"

Skip: "NINE, TWO"

Me:*cut's a 10 foot, and half an inch length of pipe down to be 9' 2" (nine feet and two inches) long*

Skip: "DAMNIT, WHAT THE HELL LENGTH IS THIS?!"

Me: "NINE FOOT, TWO SIR"

Skip: *slaps forehead* "NINETYTWO INCHES!!!."

Me: "oops?"

Nod for Greyview

I have done exactly the same.

"Medical professionals the world over depend on metric to not kill people"
"Sure, but carpenters use imperial. Case closed.
Grey Wolf

Right, but I wasn't arguing the imperial system was strictly better. Only better for carpentry. The fact that Carpenters in metric countries still use it is a pretty strong argument for that.

I also have said (more than once) that I think metric would be better for engineering, science and medicine.

Chen

2017-08-18, 12:07 PM

So people in metric countries are often using imperial for carpentry. Case. Closed.

You argued that the imperial units and the standard sizes were such because they were easier to work with (all that dividing and measuring stuff). The example given is exactly the opposite of what you were arguing. They converted imperial units to metric ones and worked in metric even if the boards were the same sizes.

monomer

2017-08-18, 12:09 PM

So they can sound like you're getting more.

Right, but I wasn't arguing the imperial system was strictly better. Only better for carpentry. The fact that Carpenters in metric countries still use it is a pretty strong argument for that.

I think the real reason why carpenters in some metric countries, like Canada, still use Imperial is due to inertia, not because one system is inherently better than the other.

For example, 30" and 36" doors had been standard in Canada since before we changed to the metric system. Technically we could change over to something like 90 cm doors, but then suppliers and distributors would have to keep two sizes of doors on hand to deal with new construction and renovations, stores would have to devote extra space to stock different sizes, and it becomes a huge logistical problem all the way up the chain. So since we're already stuck with 36" doors, it is easier to just stay with the units rather than try to deal with a 91.44 cm door, and since your doors and other fittings are already sized to inches, designing the rest of the house in metric doesn't make any sense.

Canada is also very strongly tied to America, both economically and socially, and it makes sense to have simple products that can be used in both countries, rather than having to design for both. It would be interesting to know if France, for example, uses standard units for carpentry.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-08-18, 12:15 PM

The fact that Carpenters in metric countries still use it is a pretty strong argument for that.

It's not a fact:
http://images.arquidicas.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/tamanho-mesa-de-jantar.jpg
(random Portuguese carpentry picture).

It might still happen in countries that used to have imperial, but in my travels to non-ex-British-colonies, imperial is nowhere to be found. Napoleon made sure of that for Europe, and they exported it just as Britain did for theirs.

GW

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 01:22 PM

Let me rephrase my complaint.

Why's it called a 2x4?

Because that's the nominal size, which hasn't actually been 2x4 inches since IIRC pre World War II. When actually building something, most of the time you don't actually want a 2x4 to be 2x4, since then you'd need a bigger than 2x4 inch hole for it. As it is, it'll fit a hole of that size easily, and the rest can be made up with shims. Besides which, the margin of error on most construction lumber is high enough that if you're basing your design on this particular board being exactly four inches wide, the nominal size not being the actual size will be the least of your problems.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 01:47 PM

Because that's the nominal size, which hasn't actually been 2x4 inches since IIRC pre World War II. When actually building something, most of the time you don't actually want a 2x4 to be 2x4, since then you'd need a bigger than 2x4 inch hole for it.

I fail to see the problem. I'm assuming that the holes are designed around the standard lumber size. Making the standard lumber size the same as what it's named for would make the standard hole size bigger by default. Its not like there are natural construction holes these naturally fit into. It's all made by design. So saying, "the system we made specifically for it would be different if we made it specifically for slightly larger than it" is correct, yes, but also kind of meaningless.

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 02:32 PM

I fail to see the problem. I'm assuming that the holes are designed around the standard lumber size. Making the standard lumber size the same as what it's named for would make the standard hole size bigger by default. Its not like there are natural construction holes these naturally fit into. It's all made by design. So saying, "the system we made specifically for it would be different if we made it specifically for slightly larger than it" is correct, yes, but also kind of meaningless.

Concrete example: I have a 4 inch gap I need to build a block to fill. It's probably not exactly four inches. If my 2x4s are exactly 2x4, then if that gap is a hair under 4 inches, I have to rip one of those boards. That in turn requires a large tablesaw, is a dangerous and fiddly operation requiring additional measurements. If my 2x4s are under nominal, I need to stick a shim in the hole to fill the gap, which is much easier to do fine adjustments for. Now imagine doing layout, roughly 4 inch gaps will be a lot more common than roughly 4/12 inch gaps.

Sure, one could do layout so that your gaps would tend to end up at 4 1/2 inch thickness. This will tend to mean dealing with lots of stupid things like 11 3/4 inch lengths. In return I get what? The ability to have 2x4s that are actually supposedly 2x4. The only person this could possibly help is somebody who has never dealt with lumbar before. Except it only really helps them if they designed something assuming that you could just take a 2x4, nail it to another one and get something exactly 4x4 inches.

And that's a bad habit that will screw them over very quickly, regardless of the nominal thickness. If you're going to be successful working in wood in any capacity, you need to know not to count on across-grain thickness being stable, because it changes. Every time you cut the board longways, you will relieve internal stresses, causing the wood to warp and change shape. Every time the humidity changes, the wood will change size, mostly by getting thicker not longer. If you need exactly four inches thick, you need to spend a lot of work getting that, probably over the course of days as you allow the wood to relax after successive cuts. Even that may not be enough, I had a box lid pick up a substantial warp after being allowed to dry for more than a month. So whatever nominal thickness the mill cuts to is not the one you will get. I don't count on a 2x4 being close enough to 1.5 x 3.5 inches to be remotely reliable as a measurement, if I need a piece of wood of exactly that, or any other measurement, I'll get a bigger one and cut it to that size.

Chen

2017-08-18, 02:46 PM

Now imagine doing layout, roughly 4 inch gaps will be a lot more common than roughly 4/12 inch gaps.

Uh why? Wouldn't that entirely depend on the size of whatever it is you're making?

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 02:52 PM

Uh why? Wouldn't that entirely depend on the size of whatever it is you're making?

Because one generally designs things to be in terms of whole feet and inches, rather than ten feet, 11 3/4 inches.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 03:41 PM

Concrete example: I have a 4 inch gap I need to build a block to fill. It's probably not exactly four inches. If my 2x4s are exactly 2x4, then if that gap is a hair under 4 inches, I have to rip one of those boards. That in turn requires a large tablesaw

Or a belt sander. Or a random orbit sander and some patience. Or a hand plane, if you're into the whole old-school thing.

Also, are all gaps 4 inches? You happen to have an instance that coincidentally fits what is being talked about. Is that standard, or lucky?

BWR

2017-08-18, 03:51 PM

You mean 3' 3 5/8" heavy? That's really easy to cut. Whereas .28084 is very difficult. Again imperial is much easier to subdivide. Because it's base 12, base 8, and base 16s. Seriously this is not hard to understand.

Also you're missing the point again, you don't need as many boards that are 3' 3 5/8" heavy on a job, you need a bunch that are one foot or two foot, or 16".

That doesn't get you within an 1/8th bud. So whatever you'd be making would be completely messed up. Way worse if you're building a cabinet or furniture. Where you have to have things within a sixteenth.

Fractions are much easier to use when laying things out than decimals are. That's why people use them in carpentry. And no, they aren't equally easy, because people who are trained to use tenths of a foot still switch over. Why are you guys ignoring half of what the only person here who actually does this sort of thing for a living is saying, and then inserting your own stuff.

Yes, it's possible to divide ten into thirds. But it's really difficult to measure .3333333333333333333 on a fricking tape. Whereas measuring 1/4 inch, or 3" on a tape is really fast, and way more accurate. That would be why people that use that.

Frankly, if you need more accuracy than a millimeter, which the vast majority of rulers and tape measures I've seen have, then you need more accuracy than Imperial allows unless you artificially force things into to your preferred system. Your examples are being intentionally stupid at this point.
And I should have been clearer, you often buy boards that are measured in inches (I want 20 meters of 2x4), for whatever reason, but the actual cutting tends to be done in metric. Somehow, things get built just fine over here too.

Gnoman

2017-08-18, 04:10 PM

Let me rephrase my complaint.

Why's it called a 2x4?

The real reason is that they cut it to 2" x 4" right after felling the tree, and shrinkage occurs. You'd almost certainly have the same issue (with softwoods like pine) if it was 5cm x 10cm.

AMFV

2017-08-18, 04:14 PM

Frankly, if you need more accuracy than a millimeter, which the vast majority of rulers and tape measures I've seen have, then you need more accuracy than Imperial allows unless you artificially force things into to your preferred system. Your examples are being intentionally stupid at this point.
And I should have been clearer, you often buy boards that are measured in inches (I want 20 meters of 2x4), for whatever reason, but the actual cutting tends to be done in metric. Somehow, things get built just fine over here too.

I'm not at all saying you can't build things using metric. I'm saying that there are certain advantages to a system that's base 12. the same reason as boards are sold in 16 foot lengths rather than 20 foot lengths. .

Mostly what I'm trying to argue against is the idea that switching to metric will be universally equally good for everybody. Which isn't exactly true everything is always more complex than that. And again they're definitely certain advantages for using Imperial, a quick look at some online forums reveals that a lot of the English-speaking world professional carpenters use Imperial rather than metric even though those countries have adopted metric probably long before those carpenters were born. Now is there some aspect of inertia in the trades that's responsible for that, almost certainly some part of that is due to that but I don't think you could say all of it is at least not with any real degree of confidence.

AMFV

2017-08-18, 04:20 PM

Or a belt sander. Or a random orbit sander and some patience. Or a hand plane, if you're into the whole old-school thing.
Yeah that's fine if you're a hobbyist but if you're a professional and you take out an orbit sander or a belt sander instead of ripping a board you would be laid off so fast it wouldn't even be funny. I don't even want to know what would happen if you took out a hand plane.

Also, are all gaps 4 inches? You happen to have an instance that coincidentally fits what is being talked about. Is that standard, or lucky?

There's more to do with standard then luck there. Mostly because two and four fit very well into feet or any other measurement that you're going to have again you're seeing advantage of being able to easily subdivide things.

As far as your two-by-fours being smaller generally it's to give you about a half inch of play they're almost always exactly a half inch smaller. Which again is what you would need if you had a 2 inch Gap in concrete and you were filling it with the short side of a two by four. Although in that situation you might need to make a rip anyways long ways.

Also it's important to avoid cutting boards as much as possible because cutting them makes them less square less accurate and ****tier to use. Like even as someone who does a lot of cutting it's not really possible to make it so that you have a rip that's exactly square. I mean maybe with a table saw but I do a lot of most often the feel that we don't have the advantage of having table saws.

The real reason is that they cut it to 2" x 4" right after felling the tree, and shrinkage occurs. You'd almost certainly have the same issue (with softwoods like pine) if it was 5cm x 10cm.
That may have been the real reason initially but if it was just shrinkage you wouldn't get exactly equally 1/2 in shrinkage the whole time and that's what you have on every piece of 2 by 4. That's one and a half by three and a half. I mean if it wasn't exactly like that you have to rip a lot of boards and you'd never be able to lay anything out.

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 04:31 PM

Or a belt sander. Or a random orbit sander and some patience. Or a hand plane, if you're into the whole old-school thing.

Also, are all gaps 4 inches? You happen to have an instance that coincidentally fits what is being talked about. Is that standard, or lucky?

Serious question, have you built anything out of wood? I have on occasion, and if your design is at all reasonably done, the difference between nominal and actual width of the lumber is utterly irrelevant 99% of the time.

When it is - say you have a post that needs to come through a floor or something, you basically have two choices.
1) Start with something too big and make it smaller.
2) Start with something too small, and make it larger.

Now I can make the hole any dimension I want, and if I need a really tight fit I'll need to measure it to the post no matter what, because lumber just isn't cut precisely enough to saw a hole and hope a board off the pile will actually fit it well. But if I just need the thing to go through the hole, and would like to be able to easily adjust its angle (because say it needs to connect to a rafter 12 feet above the floor) it's much easier to have a post that fits the hole easily. So I want to cut my hole a bit big, and if this is something still fairly unprecise, I'd like to be able to get away with just cutting a hole and dropping a post in it, not measure every hole to every post.

So I go out and grab me a nice 4x4. If it's actually 4 inches on a side, I'll need to do a bunch of annoying calculations when cutting the hole to give myself enough play. This effects about 4 different cuts, and can be easy to goof up. If it's 3 1/2 inches on a side, I just need a hole 4 inches on a side and there's no screwing around 1/4 inch extra allowances everywhere. It also means that if I've got two of these posts, and I want to attach a ceiling between them, I'm pretty sure that an 8 foot wide piece of plywood will fit between them if I allowed for 8 feet between them. The extra is easy to make up using a couple of shims, and if one wants it to look all fancy afterwards, that's what trim boards are for.

The other way you can end up with a gap is that your original rough measurements are off, and you've gotta stick something in there to make the thing fit together. In this case the hole's of essentially random size, and it doesn't really matter whether what thickness you're starting with. You just need something to fill in the gap. So basically either you end up designing things with lots of stupid measurements, or there's no particular reason to favor one size over the other.

(This is also a very weird way to build something. One is much better off simply putting in the verticals first, then cutting the flooring around them. In which case it's still very handy to have them a bit small, because that means things tend to fit when cut to the desired thickness, rather than not. And it's still easier to have this adjustment pre-done in the dimension of the lumber than it is by downscaling everything around them.)

There are cases where you really need this bit of wood to be extremely tight fitting and precise (say mortise and tenon construction), but if you need that kind of precision you'll need to cut it to fit anyway. Nothing that comes from the mill is going to be close enough. Which is why I said if your design will fail if you bought 4x4s not realizing they weren't actually four inches a side, you were probably going to have a really bad day already.

(I'd be very surprised if the difference between nominal and actual comes from wood shrinkage. It's too precise, and cutting wood when it's wet enough to shrink that much is a good way to end up with really terribly warped and probably cracked boards, assuming you could even find a tree that would shrink from a 2 inch board to a 1.5 inch board. You gotta let that stuff dry first. Plus, as I said, early in the 20th century 2x4s were actually 2x4, so this could be basically adjusted for. People stopped doing this, and since construction continued to work just fine, it seems to be either irrelevant or a change for the better. )

AMFV

2017-08-18, 05:18 PM

Well if you need a really tight you could just cut it a little small and then use a a hammer to make it fit. So for like your notional 2 x 4, you could cut a hole 1 1/2 in light by 3 and 1/2 inch light.

Course that wouldn't work for a lot of residential applications but it's a lot faster than cutting it to fit.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 05:32 PM

The real reason is that they cut it to 2" x 4" right after felling the tree, and shrinkage occurs. You'd almost certainly have the same issue (with softwoods like pine) if it was 5cm x 10cm.

Oh, I know. I just want the name to reflect the size. If its not 2"x4", don't call it 2x4.

I have thevsame issue with quarter/half pound burgers. That one especially because they shove as much water as they can in the meat. At least the mills make an honest effort.

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 07:15 PM

Oh, I know. I just want the name to reflect the size. If its not 2"x4", don't call it 2x4.

It's not from shrinkage, mills don't cut their lumber green. They're made that size deliberately. Probably in part because it's a much more convenient size than actually 2x4.

I have thevsame issue with quarter/half pound burgers. That one especially because they shove as much water as they can in the meat. At least the mills make an honest effort.
It's really the only sensible way to measure hamburger, because final weight depends substantially on cooking method and duration. Tell a kitchen staff that they need to deal with incrementally sized burgers for everything from rare to super well done to that inevitable person who thinks medium means well done and sends the damn thing back three times, and they'll laugh in your face.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 07:39 PM

It's not from shrinkage, mills don't cut their lumber green. They're made that size deliberately. Probably in part because it's a much more convenient size than actually 2x4.

It's really the only sensible way to measure hamburger, because final weight depends substantially on cooking method and duration. Tell a kitchen staff that they need to deal with incrementally sized burgers for everything from rare to super well done to that inevitable person who thinks medium means well done and sends the damn thing back three times, and they'll laugh in your face.
A.) Then dont call it 2x4. Call it what it actually is. Not hard.

2.) The vast majority of burger places don't cook to order. You get it medium well. End of story. The burgers are identical, the cooking is identical, the final weight is identical.

Also, rare?!? Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a place that'll cook your burger rare, even at placed that do cook to order? It's damn near impossible, unless the cook is willing to make an exception and ignore restaurant policy, which I can attest is itself a fairly uncommon thing.

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 07:53 PM

A.) Then dont call it 2x4. Call it what it actually is. Not hard.

For most things nominal size is necessarily and beneficially different than actually size. If my pipe has an exterior diameter of an inch, the elbow piece needs to have an internal diameter very slightly greater than one inch, because an actual one inch internal diameter elbow won't fit and will be entirely useless. Are we supposed to say that this requires a 1 and 1/512th inch fitting now?

Because there's a good bit of wiggle room in the sort of construction where one makes substantial use of 2x4s, the nominal vs. actual is a fairly large difference. If this caused actual problems for building things, you'd think somebody would have fixed it by now. As it is, it's either a difference that is mostly irrelevant and occasionally very handy. Changing either the board or the term for the sake of some weird measurement purity would be a lot of pointless and wasted work.

2.) The vast majority of burger places don't cook to order. You get it medium well. End of story. The burgers are identical, the cooking is identical, the final weight is identical.

Also, rare?!? Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a place that'll cook your burger rare, even at placed that do cook to order? It's damn near impossible, unless the cook is willing to make an exception and ignore restaurant policy, which I can attest is itself a fairly uncommon thing.
If I'm gonna get a burger, there's no way in hell I'm going someplace that won't serve it medium rare. And if I get salmon, I'm definitely not ordering that anywhere above rare. Mind, I eat hamburgers all of maybe twice a year, and salmon maybe once.

Peelee

2017-08-18, 08:15 PM

For most things nominal size is necessarily and beneficially different than actually size. If my pipe has an exterior diameter of an inch, the elbow piece needs to have an internal diameter very slightly greater than one inch, because an actual one inch internal diameter elbow won't fit and will be entirely useless. Are we supposed to say that this requires a 1 and 1/512th inch fitting now?

So you want to claim that my argument is that if a number is relatively close to another number on any given scale of arbitrary magnitude, we should round it. Fun fact, the radius of the Earth is about 1000 miles (because 3959 is closer to 1000 than 10000, obviously).

Now, if we go the non-stupid route, then rounding to the nearest eighth of an inch sounds fine, yes?

warty goblin

2017-08-18, 08:42 PM

So by your argument, if a number is relatively close to another number on any given scale of arbitrary magnitude, we should round it. Fun fact, the radius of the Earth is about 1000 miles (because 3959 is closer to 1000 than 10000, obviously).

Now, if we go the non-stupid route, then rounding to the nearest eighth of an inch sounds fine, yes?
If I'm doing Fermi estimation, I'll happily round the earth's radius to 1000 miles. If I need to know roughly how far something is falling after a second I will use 10 meters per second squared. And if I need a board that is precisely 2 by 4 inches I will measure and cut a board that is precisely 2 by 4 inches. There are places in carpentry where I don't care about an eighth of an inch, and places where I care a lot about 1/64th inch, it just depends what I'm doing.

The level and sort of precision required depends entirely on the problem being considered. 2x4 is a sensible term that has entirely sufficient precision for how they are actually used. And convincing people to add six syllables to a completely clear and well understood name is a battle that's both doomed and pointless.

2D8HP

2017-08-18, 09:32 PM

A.) Then dont call it 2x4. Call it what it actually is. Not hard.

Don't look at the relationship between "nominal" and actual pipe size then, as a Journeyman plumber once told an Engineer customer who kept asking about it.

Engineer: "What size is this?"

Plumber: '3/4"'

Engineer: *measures with a caliper*
"No it isn't"

Plumber: 'It's the nominal size'

*minutes of "discussion" follow*

Plumber: *sigh* '
'It's called that as a trade secret, just to confuse you.

Engineer: "AHA!"

Cazero

2017-08-19, 05:24 AM

I'm not at all saying you can't build things using metric. I'm saying that there are certain advantages to a system that's base 12. the same reason as boards are sold in 16 foot lengths rather than 20 foot lengths.
There certainly is an advantage to using multiple of 12 as they're divisible by 2, 3, 4 and 6. But I don't see why you'd need to pick a specific base for that.

a quick look at some online forums reveals that a lot of the English-speaking world professional carpenters use Imperial rather than metric even though those countries have adopted metric probably long before those carpenters were born. Now is there some aspect of inertia in the trades that's responsible for that, almost certainly some part of that is due to that but I don't think you could say all of it is at least not with any real degree of confidence.
We make land vehicles slightly larger than two horse ass put alongside each other since the roman empire for the sole reason the romans built their roads based on that width for their chariots pulled by two horses. The length and height are allowed a lot more variation. I would say it's about 1/4 inertia, 3/4 having to rebuild the entire infrastructure with a new standard.

Velaryon

2017-08-21, 10:32 AM

I've had greatly mixed experiences with doctors over the years. The two pediatricians I saw as a kid were excellent (both were Russian immigrants, I believe, and had excellent bedside manner in addition to knowing their craft well). As an adult though, I've had a lot less positive experiences, ranging from doctors who don't listen and want to get me in and out of their office as long as possible, to doctors who are friendly and chatty but (because of this) turn appointments into an all-day event because I don't get seen until 3 hours after my appointment time.

My biggest frustration with doctors is how they all seem to share the unspoken assumption that their time is valuable, but mine is not.

Also, I went to a wedding with my ex about 4 years ago where a former classmate of hers who had become a doctor awkwardly tried to hit on every single unattached female he could find at the reception. He was so bad that two of my ex's friends pretended to be in a lesbian relationship with each other just so he'd leave them alone.

ArlEammon

2017-08-23, 12:12 PM

They get NOOOO sleep.

the_david

2017-08-31, 02:47 PM

I found a video that seemed relevant. (https://youtu.be/7UGraFUuQjA)

Otomodachi

2017-08-31, 03:44 PM

Maybe this will help explain? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UGraFUuQjA)

The Eye

2017-08-31, 07:40 PM

I found a video that seemed relevant. (https://youtu.be/7UGraFUuQjA)

Maybe this will help explain? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UGraFUuQjA)

The fact is that none of the problems presented were done by me or people who feel that doctors have problems, and I still normally have a terrible service, the fact that so many doctors physicians kill themselves is an indication that there is something wrong with the job and how they deal with the patients, they are clearly unprepared to deal with people and that makes them kill themselves, pathetic, they really should learn how to work that issue rather than blame the patients they were hired to help or expect people to simply change.

anjxed

2017-09-01, 06:14 AM

Lo and behold! The Eye has spoken!

Anyway a lot of people really don't listen to their doctors until its too late ya know. Like my uncle, he likes his roast pig and he does not take his meds. Poof! Quad bypass later, now he's taking his meds.

Razade

2017-09-01, 06:51 AM

Lo and behold! The Eye has spoken!

Putting people on blast for taking their own lives just because they don't immediately cater to his whims and comfort levels every single time. Classic The Eye.

Winthur

2017-09-01, 07:50 AM

I just wanted to chime in to say that I harbor a pathological distrust towards all doctors because of an extremely botched surgery in my youth, multiple botched dental surgeries, a terrible psychologist to deal with the trauma from the botched surgery and the depression I got into afterwards.

I now have cavities the size of the moon in my mouth but I will not yield until it hurts to speak. Doctors are evul.

I mean, they're probably not, but I am not lucky.

Knaight

2017-09-01, 11:56 AM

Besides the fact that none of the problems presented were done by me, and I still had a terrible service, the fact that so many doctors physicians kill themselves is an indication that there is something wrong with the job and how they deal with the patients, they are clearly unprepared to deal with people and that makes them kill themselves, pathetic, they really should learn how to work that issue rather than blame the patients they were hired to help or expect people to simply change.

The reason suicide rates are so high among doctors is the same as the reason suicide rates are so high among soldiers - high PTSD rates caused by dealing with severe trauma all the time. Dealing with severely wounded patients is traumatic. Dealing with patients dying is traumatic. Even a cursory look at which doctors kill themselves a lot will reveal a way higher rate among emergency room physicians, surgeons who deal with life threatening injuries, and generally any particular career that is likely to involve people dying messily in front of you.

Peelee

2017-09-01, 01:14 PM

the fact that so many doctors physicians kill themselves is an indication that there is something wrong with the job and how they deal with the patients

Yeah. Nothing to do with, you know, endlessly fighting a losing battle and seeing people die on a constant basis. Clearly, physicians only kill themselves because of how they deal with the patients. What jerks.

The Eye

2017-09-01, 02:45 PM

Knaight

2017-09-01, 02:56 PM

Death is part of life if they can't deal with that maybe they shouldn't have chosen such profession in the first place?

It's like choosing to be a vampire if you have hemophobia or being a window cleaner if you are afraid of heights or a teacher if you hate kids.

Yes, because everyone has so much experience dealing with death all the time and knows this about themselves, and also dying in the process of saving the lives of a great many people is apparently an indication that you're a bad person. Also everyone knows the exact outcomes of all their decisions, career or otherwise, and the entire concept of "risk" and "probability" are lies devised to hide the simple truths accessible by spouting the first thing that comes to mind without thinking at all. There's certainly no way that people are knowingly taking a higher risk of certain types of death and psychological effects to do important work - that's just absurd.

The Eye

2017-09-01, 03:15 PM

Yes, because everyone has so much experience dealing with death all the time and knows this about themselves

We don't and that's my point, I'm planning on holding a seminar on death and how to deal with it in medicine campus of the university I attend to try to do something about it, it's an absurd that we are sending those young lads and girls to face the mortality of our species without any preparation on how to deal with it, the med schools are really unprepared to deal with the topic.

I think I will start with the Twilight Zone episode "Nothing in the Dark", what do you guys think? To be honest the best work of art to represent how normal death is to our lives is sandman but my university is too conservative for me to use comics as a visual aid.

Who knows maybe this will even become a paper I will write about :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the inspiration guys.

Rynjin

2017-09-01, 03:34 PM

The most implausible thing about that whole post is the idea that you go to a university. Most people grow out of the edgy pseudo-nihilist phase around 16.

The Eye

2017-09-01, 03:50 PM

The most implausible thing about that whole post is the idea that you go to a university. Most people grow out of the edgy pseudo-nihilist phase around 16.

And most people grow out of calling people names to make them feel bad about themselves around 9 and yet here you are.

We can clearly see by the OP and many others (including me) had bad experiences with doctors, they need to improve their ethics code and just being the pharmaceutics industry mistress is not enough.

golentan

2017-09-01, 03:54 PM

We don't and that's my point, I'm planning on holding a seminar on death and how to deal with it in medicine campus of the university I attend to try to do something about it, it's an absurd that we are sending those young lads and girls to face the mortality of our species without any preparation on how to deal with it, the med schools are really unprepared to deal with the topic.

Just in veterinary medicine, but my school had a whole class on dealing with grief, death, and burnout.

The fact you are not aware of a discussion within a community does not mean the community is ignoring the topic.

The Eye

2017-09-01, 03:59 PM

Just in veterinary medicine, but my school had a whole class on dealing with grief, death, and burnout.

The fact you are not aware of a discussion within a community does not mean the community is ignoring the topic.

I aware of that, but ti1's clearly not enough giving the suicide rates.

And correct if I'm wrong but those classes deal with it more in a "This is a thing that happens to the patients" rather than "This is a thing you will have to deal with in regular basis try not to let it consume you". Don’t they?

Rynjin

2017-09-01, 04:10 PM

And most people grow out of calling people names to make them feel bad about themselves around 9 and yet here you are.

We can clearly see by the OP and many others (including me) had bad experiences with doctors, they need to improve their ethics code and just being the pharmaceutics industry mistress is not enough.

Things you don't understand, as demonstrated in this thread:

1.) Physicians

2.) Psychology
-2a.) Depression and suicide in particular

3.) Empathy

4.) Anecdotal evidence

5.) The concept of outliers

6.) Pharmaceuticals (here's a hint, nothing in this thread has anything to do with pharmaceutical companies)

7.) How to keep your mouth shut on any of these subjects you have zero clue about.

That's a pretty impressive list in only three posts, let's see you add to it. I believe in you, given your track record in other threads.

Mikemical

2017-09-01, 04:11 PM

I aware of that, but ti1's clearly not enough giving the suicide rates.

And correct if I'm wrong but those classes deal with it more in a "This is a thing that happens to the patients" rather than "This is a thing you will have to deal with in regular basis try not to let it consume you". Don’t they?

Pretty sure they're directed to the doctor on how to break the news to their relatives as well as how to deal with that the person you were entrusted to keep alive died. A doctor shouldn't get used to it so that they become numb, but they also can't let losing one patient turn into their career-ruining injury.

I mean, sometimes no matter how hard you try, some people just don't make it. A surgeon must abide to their hippocratic oath, but they should be prepared to deal with the fact that they're not a miracle worker and sometimes they'll be the unlucky one to lose a patient.

The Eye

2017-09-01, 04:15 PM

I mean, sometimes no matter how hard you try, some people just don't make it. A surgeon must abide to their hippocratic oath, but they should be prepared to deal with the fact that they're not a miracle worker and sometimes they'll be the unlucky one to lose a patient.

Indeed and by the looks of it they are not.

EDIT: Just found this (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117549&page=1) I think it's relevant.

golentan

2017-09-01, 04:45 PM

Peelee

2017-09-01, 05:02 PM

Things [The Eye] do[es]n't understand, as demonstrated in this thread:

3.) Empathy

This, I think, is the biggest underlying factor. "If people in a given job have a high suicide rate, then those people are weak and should not be in that job" is a horrible argument, in every sense of the word "horrible."

Razade

2017-09-01, 05:13 PM

The reason suicide rates are so high among doctors is the same as the reason suicide rates are so high among soldiers - high PTSD rates caused by dealing with severe trauma all the time. Dealing with severely wounded patients is traumatic. Dealing with patients dying is traumatic. Even a cursory look at which doctors kill themselves a lot will reveal a way higher rate among emergency room physicians, surgeons who deal with life threatening injuries, and generally any particular career that is likely to involve people dying messily in front of you.

The suicide rate in doctors isn't evenall that high. It's 12th, 12th, among professions according to the CDC. That doesn't mean it's low but the national suicide rate is 13 per 100,000 people. Doctors (and Lawyers) are 19 out of every 100,000. That's nowhere near the suicide rate of Farmers. Which is 85 out of every 100,000. Or Factory Workers, which is 35 out of every 100,000.

Still, those numbers are sad and it's regrettable that people take that option...but it happens and that's just how it is.

The Eye, on the other hand, continues to demonstrate just what sort of person he really is.

Luz

2017-09-01, 05:16 PM

golentan

2017-09-01, 05:28 PM

I still believe that physicians have issues, the fact that they don't respect psychology as a real form of treatment just makes matters worst.

But calling suicidal people “weak” or “pathetic” is just horrible, these people are going thought sates of extreme sadness and suffering, having empathy and kindness is a must.

I think that's fair. It just does grate on me when people armchair general this sort of stuff, especially with arguments which boil down to "Why don't they do X" when I know from personal experience that "X" is basic training and the current debate among experts has moved past "Y" and "Z" and is around "Chi."

2D8HP

2017-09-01, 05:36 PM

FWIW, I clearly remember that after a job-site injury my employer sent me to a cheap-o quack clinic, where the "Physician" said, "You're a plumber? I should have been a plumber! Do you know how many Doctors commit suicide?"!

I later sussed out that the way to get better odds of somewhat competent treatment is, if still mobile enough, to keep my mouth shut about being injured at work, stay away from the "occupational clinics", and hope for the best with general care.

I'm firmly of the opinion that medical workers are like most people (including plumbers), they're nowhere near as competent as we hope, or they themselves would like to be, they're just trying to do what they can, and pay the rent.

There just not enough competent people for how much need there is.

If we wanted more competence we shouldn't have eliminated the Guilds (but then we'd have less people allowed to do the jobs).

Also, lay off The Eye, he just posted that he's in College, so while probably from a priveledged background, he's likely still just a kid. Unless he's the son of an ultra-wealthy real-estate developer (which I doubt since he spends his time posting to this Forum), he'll get wiser and more empathetic in time.

Peelee

2017-09-01, 05:44 PM

I still believe that physicians have issues, the fact that they don't respect psychology as a real form of treatment just makes matters worst.

I jokingly rag on psychology a lot because I like the hard sciences, but I fully agree.

Orcus The Vile

2017-09-01, 05:56 PM

Come on, everyone know many physicians have God complexes, they are hardly angels.

The Eye

2017-09-01, 06:37 PM

I'm firmly of the opinion that medical workers are like most people (including plumbers), they're nowhere near as competent as we hope, or they themselves would like to be, they're just trying to do what they can, and pay the rent.

There just not enough competent people for how much need there is.

I agree.

Also, lay off The Eye, he just posted that he's in College, so while probably from a priveledged background, he's likely still just a kid. Unless he's the son of an ultra-wealthy real-estate developer (which I doubt since he spends his time posting to this Forum), he'll get wiser and more empathetic in time.

I fail to see how the fact that I have a college degree and work in the academic field makes me automatically "from a privileged background” (Oh and I think you spelled privileged wrong BtW), do you use stereotypes this often?

I also don't see why being the son of a rich guy would make me post less (I don't even post that much) if anything I would have tons of free time not having to work to pay the rent and the bills.

Besides aren't we all getting wiser with time? The person who claims to be wise is really the biggest fool.

Knaight

2017-09-01, 07:56 PM

I aware of that, but ti1's clearly not enough giving the suicide rates.
Some of that rate is an intrinsic occupational hazard. I'm not saying that medical schools (and lets be clear here: society in general) couldn't do a better job dealing with suicide, but that doesn't make using high suicide rates as a stick to beat the profession with in any way okay.

The suicide rate in doctors isn't evenall that high. It's 12th, 12th, among professions according to the CDC. That doesn't mean it's low but the national suicide rate is 13 per 100,000 people. Doctors (and Lawyers) are 19 out of every 100,000. That's nowhere near the suicide rate of Farmers. Which is 85 out of every 100,000. Or Factory Workers, which is 35 out of every 100,000.
If you break it down by specifics those numbers start looking a bit worse - particularly for people who work in the ER.

AMFV

2017-09-01, 09:19 PM

I agree.

I fail to see how the fact that I have a college degree and work in the academic field makes me automatically "from a privileged background” (Oh and I think you spelled privileged wrong BtW), do you use stereotypes this often?

I also don't see why being the son of a rich guy would make me post less (I don't even post that much) if anything I would have tons of free time not having to work to pay the rent and the bills.

Besides aren't we all getting wiser with time? The person who claims to be wise is really the biggest fool.

I think the main point was that as a young academic, you've no real experience dealing with death and are in that way privileged. That would make you not the right person to hold any kind of seminar on that.

2D8HP

2017-09-01, 09:29 PM

...I fail to see how the fact that I have a college degree and work in the academic field makes me automatically "from a privileged background”

:amused:

Oh, you graduated and have a white collar job?

Okay, I now classify your status as "privileged", i.e. someone who's job doesn't cause death or cripling injuries.

I may be wrong, perhaps you've served in thr military overseas?

(Oh and I think you spelled privileged wrong BtW),

Thanks for the tip!

:smile:

do you use stereotypes this often?

Yes. Yes I do.

I also don't see why being the son of a rich guy would make me post less (I don't even post that much) if anything I would have tons of free time not having to work to pay the rent and the bills.

Because I imagine that you would be spending your time and money on debauchery if that was the case (I also had a very specific person in mind).

Besides aren't we all getting wiser with time?

All? No. Just many.

The person who claims to be wise is really the biggest fool.

There's a difference between "wise" (I don't know anyone who makes that claim), and "wiser than once they were" (many have said they were).

Mikemical

2017-09-01, 09:45 PM

I'm just gonna grab some popcorn and watch you two tear each other's throats out now.

God, I love the Friendly Banter sub-forum.

Razade

2017-09-02, 05:44 AM

:amused:

Oh, you graduated and have a white collar job?

Okay, I now classify your status as "privileged", i.e. someone who's job doesn't cause death or cripling injuries.

I may be wrong, perhaps you've served in thr military overseas?

You're almost as judgmental and bigoted as The Eye. Got a non-blue collar job? Privileged.

Because I imagine that you would be spending your time and money on debauchery if that was the case (I also had a very specific person in mind).

You should probably not judge people on a very specific person.

2D8HP

2017-09-02, 08:34 AM

You're almost as judgmental and bigoted as The Eye. Got a non-blue collar job? Privileged.

You should probably not judge people on a very specific person.

Yes Razade, what a fool I am, you are so very correct (and also good looking)., I must agree with you, as you're wisdom is an inspiration for the ages! The demise of my statements are at hand, for you wield debate power beyond my feeble reasoning!

The forces of the very cosmos are yours to command, and yet still I cannot comprehend the dark dismal end in store for me and my wickedness. Nay! My little brain can only leave me gasping in horror as you tear my arguments asunder! .

Woe is the day I ever dared dispute you, as the intelligence you bring to this thread dwarfs mine and in fact is wasted on such a pitiful creature as myself. And lo, in days and years to come, when future playgrounders come to use the search function, they shall find the smoking crater that once held my posts, but all shall feel the echoes of the power wielded by the might of your wisdom today, and they shall ponder: whence did your mighty intellect come to shine it's brilliance!

You leave me in awe, as my tears flow in the realisation of how wrong I was!

Rynjin

2017-09-02, 11:06 AM

2D8HP

2017-09-02, 11:31 AM

Eh, 4/10, way too forced. If you're going to drop a response like that it needs to be referring to a way more pretentious or lengthy post.

Have to measure your response to the context or it just isn't funny.

:redface:

True that.

I was just going to go with the first couple of lines, but it was so fun to write that I got carried away.

I feel shame.

The Eye

2017-09-02, 11:53 AM

:amused:

Oh, you graduated and have a white collar job?

Okay, I now classify your status as "privileged", i.e. someone who's job doesn't cause death or cripling injuries.

I may be wrong, perhaps you've served in thr military overseas?

Thanks for the tip!

:smile:

Yes. Yes I do.

Because I imagine that you would be spending your time and money on debauchery if that was the case (I also had a very specific person in mind).

All? No. Just many.

There's a difference between "wise" (I don't know anyone who makes that claim), and "wiser than once they were" (many have said they were).

Are you aware that we don't live in the feudal system, where a person born peasant will die peasant, anymore? And people can strive to improve their social position despite their social background?

I don't need to serve in the military nor does the fact that I work in a so called "white collar job" makes me "privileged". I don't need to tell you my life story since that's pointless in the internet anyway I could be a dog brain in a jar for all you know but the fact that you see yourself as a underprivileged doesn't give you the right to call others privileged.

Your welcome, I want to make it clear that it wasn't used to diminish in any way I commit typos all the time.

Not all rich people are the same just as not all poor people are the same, how would you feel if I said that blue collar workers can't appreciate the sword and sorcery subgenre? That’s just as dumb as saying all rich people engage in copious acts of debauchery, I know quite a few rich teens who spend their days reading and posting at reddit.

Oh? You had a very specific person in mind? Well too bad I’m not that person and I would appreciate if you didn't compare me to him/her. I'm my own person thank you very much.

They all do, it's just that some choose to ignore their wisdom.