Angels and their falls

[Dankus Memakus]

So, angels can fall from lawful good to lawful evil. There are many examples of this happening and these angels stop being celestials and become fiends. What would happen if instead of becoming evil the angel became a being of chaos. Like they fell from grace but to embrace chaos with no good or evil falling at Chaotic neutral. What would that angel become? It wouldn't be a fiend but it wouldn't be a celestial either. Basically the question is what happens to angels who dont traditionally fall to evil but embrace another alignment.

[Naanomi]

Angels sometimes 'fall to neutrality' but it is incredibly rare... as beings so inherently Good it takes some real EVIL to instigate a fall, and once the process start they tend to go all the way down...

Archons, the lawful-good outsiders (not yet statted in 5e) can 'fall sideways' into Chaotic Good alignments. I forget what they are called, if I can find it I'll edit this post with the name

EDIT: They are called Asuras, but are not the only Monster to be named so

[Dankus Memakus]

Angels sometimes 'fall to neutrality' but it is incredibly rare... as beings so inherently Good it takes some real EVIL to instigate a fall, and once the process start they tend to go all the way down...

Archons, the lawful-good outsiders (not yet statted in 5e) can 'fall sideways' into Chaotic Good alignments. I forget what they are called, if I can find it I'll edit this post with the name

EDIT: They are called Asuras, but are not the only Monster to be named so

So if i were to be a warlock who made a pact with a neutral angel what pact would i count as? (Obviously not fey)

[Naanomi]

So if i were to be a warlock who made a pact with a neutral angel what pact would i count as? (Obviously not fey)
Um... whatever your GM says? Probably Celestial from UA still, but maybe Fiend if they are on the evil side of neutral...

[Dankus Memakus]

Um... whatever your GM says? Probably Celestial from UA still, but maybe Fiend if they are on the evil side of neutral...

I thought celestial as well. (I had a player ask that lol) what would the angel itself count as? Because if when they are evil they lose celestial what would be the neutral option?

[Pex]

It would be nice for once to play in a game where a devil or demon redeems himself into righteousness to become a celestial.

I can see one way for a devil to do it. He's a military officer. Could be a general. Could be just in charge of a squadron. He's a tactical genius and finds value in not wasting his troops. No need to wait for reinforcements. His troops become better at their job. He begins to place more value on defense and healing. He has his favorites, soldiers who have proven their great worth. Little by little he starts to care. He feels sad when they are hurt and finds ways to get them better to get back into the field. Once his empathy starts it keeps growing.

[Millstone85]

http://shaneplays.com/wp-content/gallery/dd-tales-from-the-yawning-portal/DD_Tales_From_the_Yawning_Portal_lumalia.jpg

Lumalia is a deva initially encountered in a berserk state, explained as being "crazed from captivity" at the hands of evil wizards. Diplomancy can help her tell friends apart from foes and eventually regain her lucidity, though she will still "become lost in her thirst for vengeance" on her captors.

Her alignment is noted to have shifted from lawful good to chaotic good.

She doesn't seem to have become anything other than an angel, albeit a suffering one.

[Dankus Memakus]

It would be nice for once to play in a game where a devil or demon redeems himself into righteousness to become a celestial.

I can see one way for a devil to do it. He's a military officer. Could be a general. Could be just in charge of a squadron. He's a tactical genius and finds value in not wasting his troops. No need to wait for reinforcements. His troops become better at their job. He begins to place more value on defense and healing. He has his favorites, soldiers who have proven their great worth. Little by little he starts to care. He feels sad when they are hurt and finds ways to get them better to get back into the field. Once his empathy starts it keeps growing.

If he cared for his men would they return that feeling and eventually become celestials as well? Also what would that demon look like when he turned to good? Super cool idea and ive thought about it before and i think that would be a great way to do it.

Edit: if a ascended demon had a child, would it be a tiefling or aasimar? Also whos most prone to ascension demons, devils, or yugoloths?

[lunaticfringe]

If he cared for his men would they return that feeling and eventually become celestials as well? Also what would that demon look like when he turned to good? Super cool idea and ive thought about it before and i think that would be a great way to do it.

Edit: if a ascended demon had a child, would it be a tiefling or aasimar? Also whos most prone to ascension demons, devils, or yugoloths?

None really. To give an opinion I would probably vote Demon. Chaos is Unpredictable, I can see a spontaneous moment leading to the start of a path towards redemption.

Que Debate.

[Dankus Memakus]

None really. To give an opinion I would probably vote Demon. Chaos is Unpredictable, I can see a spontaneous moment leading to the start of a path towards redemption.

Que Debate.

Id also vote demon due to chaos. Though i could understand a devil being a valid argument because of laws

[Naanomi]

Demons and Devils exceedingly rare meh, but more likely than yugoloth

[Dankus Memakus]

Demons and Devils exceedingly rare meh, but more likely than yugoloth

Would a yugolth even be capable?

[Naanomi]

Would a yugolth even be capable?
It is a big cosmos, anything is possible... but I'll admit I have a hard time imagining it compared to others... and ascended fiends are already *way* more rare than fallen celestials

[Dankus Memakus]

It is a big cosmos, anything is possible... but I'll admit I have a hard time imagining it compared to others... and ascended fiends are already *way* more rare than fallen celestials

And fallen celestials are already not too common. Id say in my universe it would take nothing short of a miracle (or a wish) to get a yugoloth to be good.

[Millstone85]

And fallen celestials are already not too common.Well, except for 25% of empyreans being neutral evil. :smallamused:

[Dankus Memakus]

Well, except for 25% of empyreans being neutral evil. :smallamused:

I mean....thats less than half lol

[Unoriginal]

Angels sometimes 'fall to neutrality' but it is incredibly rare... as beings so inherently Good it takes some real EVIL to instigate a fall, and once the process start they tend to go all the way down...

Archons, the lawful-good outsiders (not yet statted in 5e) can 'fall sideways' into Chaotic Good alignments. I forget what they are called, if I can find it I'll edit this post with the name

EDIT: They are called Asuras, but are not the only Monster to be named so

Actually, the 5e MM makes clear that "falling to neutrality" is the default, at least as first step.

Angels don't fall because they go from goody-two-shoes to performing something so horrible they're immediately condemned to hell, usually. They fall because they become so engrossed in their Lawful nature and their arrogance of not being faillible like those damned mortals who keep screwing up or doing evil that they forget about the "benevolence" part of lawful good and become lawful neutral.

It is noted that a few of them stay like that, becoming exiles, hermits or the like in the Material Plane, and they might even learn their lessons and re-learn benevolent, but a lot of them take their Fall quite badly and Hell is quite attractive for people who have lost everything .


I guess that becoming neutral good or chaotic good wouldn't been seen as that much of a problem. Yes, the angels are servants to the gods, but the benevolent gods don't want personality-free slaves to do their bidings.

[Dankus Memakus]

Actually, the 5e MM makes clear that "falling to neutrality" is the default, at least as first step.

Angels don't fall because they go from goody-two-shoes to performing something so horrible they're immediately condemned to hell, usually. They fall because they become so engrossed in their Lawful nature and their arrogance of not being faillible like those damned mortals who keep screwing up or doing evil that they forget about the "benevolence" part of lawful good and become lawful neutral.

It is noted that a few of them stay like that, becoming exiles, hermits or the like in the Material Plane, and they might even learn their lessons and re-learn benevolent, but a lot of them take their Fall quite badly and Hell is quite attractive for people who have lost everything .


I guess that becoming neutral good or chaotic good wouldn't been seen as that much of a problem. Yes, the angels are servants to the gods, but the benevolent gods don't want personality-free slaves to do their bidings.

Would a lawful angel still be a celestial.

Edit:lawful neutral angel

[Millstone85]

Actually, the 5e MM makes clear that "falling to neutrality" is the default, at least as first step.
It is noted that a few of them stay like that, becoming exiles, hermits or the like in the Material Plane, and they might even learn their lessons and re-learn benevolent, but a lot of them take their Fall quite badly and Hell is quite attractive for people who have lost everything.And I like that fluff. I envision a similar progression from fallen paladin to antipaladin.


Angels don't fall because they go from goody-two-shoes to performing something so horrible they're immediately condemned to hell, usually. They fall because they become so engrossed in their Lawful nature and their arrogance of not being faillible like those damned mortals who keep screwing up or doing evil that they forget about the "benevolence" part of lawful good and become lawful neutral.I don't think they so much forget about it as they take it for granted. They fail to notice their "moral compass", pretty much a sensory organ for an angel, becoming wobbly on certain difficult matters.

This might be somewhat connected to their lawfulness, yes. I see angels as having a lot in common with the constructs of Mechanus, except the crafting process involves "the astral essence of benevolent gods".

[JBPuffin]

The major problem with asking this in a 5e thread is that 5e's cosmology could really care less - if you want a "DnD" answer to this question, talk to the 3.5 folks (eladrin used to be 3.5's CG celestials, btdubbs). Beyond that, if you're DM, whatever you decide goes.

What makes the most sense to me, honestly, is not having things change type. Demons and devils who ascend don't become something new just because they change their ideology; same with angels. Changes are actively done by the gods, who most of the time aren't going to be bothered, especially since a being made of metaphysical morality energy has no practical reasoning for changing their behavior. If a player gave me a plausible explanation for their Chaotic Evil one-winged angel or their LG succubus paladin, I'd give it a thought, but other than that, angels are good and fiends evil.

[Dankus Memakus]

The major problem with asking this in a 5e thread is that 5e's cosmology could really care less - if you want a "DnD" answer to this question, talk to the 3.5 folks (eladrin used to be 3.5's CG celestials, btdubbs). Beyond that, if you're DM, whatever you decide goes.

What makes the most sense to me, honestly, is not having things change type. Demons and devils who ascend don't become something new just because they change their ideology; same with angels. Changes are actively done by the gods, who most of the time aren't going to be bothered, especially since a being made of metaphysical morality energy has no practical reasoning for changing their behavior. If a player gave me a plausible explanation for their Chaotic Evil one-winged angel or their LG succubus paladin, I'd give it a thought, but other than that, angels are good and fiends evil.
Ah i was just speculating im not all too worried about it. I was just curious cuz i got a warlock in my group whos patron is a fiend thats a fallen angel (and the name escapes me) but i was just curious what would happen to a neutral angel or a good demon. Im asking these questions just for fun.

[Unoriginal]

patron is a fiend thats a fallen angel (and the name escapes me)

Zariel, per any chance?