Cleaning my room, found some Magic cards...

[SpikeFightwicky]

Any Magic players around? Here are a few questions:

I found an old binder in my room that has a bunch of older cards (well, they were new when I was still playing, but apparently I'm 15 sets behind now...). I may build a deck and check out my local MtG scene. Are any of these cards still good or worth making a deck over, or are the sets all out of rotation and unplayable?:
20x Serra Angels
4x Archangel
4x Caves of Coilos (Invasion block)
4x Spectral Lynx (Invasion Block)
4x Mystic Snake (Invasion Block)
4x Noble Panther (Invasion Block)
4x Death Grasp (Invasion Block)
4x Rout (Invasion Block)
12x Wrath of God
and a few other neat odds and ends

It looks like I could make a cool Black/White deck out of it (fill in the extras with some 7th ed. cards). I also found my Goblin/Zombie deck. Problem is, last time I went to play, no one wanted to play because apparently all my cards were banned (Urza Saga Enchantress deck). Are any of these newfound cards frowned upon?

[Grey Paladin]

All I know is that WoG and Snake each sell for 10$ + and are currently in T2.

[TheBoneSplitter]

4x Caves of Coilos I'm fairly certain is in the 9th and 10th core sets, making that playable along with all the other painlands... along with WoG (wow, 12!) and Serra Angel. Mystic Snake was reintroduced into Time Spiral as part of the set's "nostalgia theme", so I think that's Standard legal.

[Krytha]

Hold onto those cards. That is concentrated quality. (Not all, but overwhelmingly most).

[Amotis]

I sold my Snakes for about $12 dollars each back in the day, good find. None of them are frowned upon, quite common and not broken at all, they are.

[Krytha]

I sold my cards once and regretted it less than immediately.

[Were-Sandwich]

wawawawawhat! You had all those tucked under your bed? Those lands are fairly valuable (I don't see why, they aren't that good. I suppose that swhy I'm not on the pro-tour). The Serra Angels kick ass as well. And the WRATHS. Ultra-good.

One day, I'm gonna build that Angel deck I keep thinking about.

[SpikeFightwicky]

wawawawawhat! You had all those tucked under your bed? Those lands are fairly valuable (I don't see why, they aren't that good. I suppose that swhy I'm not on the pro-tour). The Serra Angels kick ass as well. And the WRATHS. Ultra-good.

One day, I'm gonna build that Angel deck I keep thinking about.

Heh, I had an angel deck once, only played it once... I used a voltaic key to untap one of the mana artifacts (thran dynamo I think?) since it was the only way I found to speed up a white deck. I brought it to my local gaming store and found out voltaic keys were banned/restricted (this was the same day I tried my enchantress deck... not a good gaming night!).

I found an iridescent angel, which looks really cool, but I only have one of.

Also, are Spiritmongers and Pernicious Deeds hard to find still? I remember having a neato deck (Black/Blue/Green?) that used those and the mystic snakes, but I seem to be missing the mongers and deeds.

Last question/comment: How's the overall player base now? One of the main reasons I lost interest was because the players all seemed 'elitist'. As in, they'd get these deck ideas from the internet, so everyone at the store had one of 2 decks, and then they'd frown upon/make snide remarks towards anyone who didn't have those decks. I'm not sure if this was a local problem, but at 3 different locations in my city it was all the same.

[Krytha]

Deeds and mongers will always be tough to get. Also, to speed up a white deck, I used land tax and Serra Sanctums + ghostly prison (white propaganda) + cage of hands + Serra's blessing to get up to angel speed... umm... still wasn't as fast as a green deck but... that's expected...

And there are always elitist players everywhere, but not all players everywhere are elitists. Pick your crowd.

[wadledo]

I...
I...
AARRRRGGGG!!!!
(Sorry, just had to get that out)
Most libraries(that I know of on the east coast) have some kind of gaming night, and they are either really under played(bad), filled with newbies(good or bad depending), or a good mix of people practicing and newbies(good).
That should get you into the newer formats better(in my opinion) than a tournament or gaming store.
Visit your local library to learn more!

[SpikeFightwicky]

Deeds and mongers will always be tough to get. Also, to speed up a white deck, I used land tax and Serra Sanctums + ghostly prison (white propaganda) + cage of hands + Serra's blessing to get up to angel speed... umm... still wasn't as fast as a green deck but... that's expected...

I hate to sound newbish, but I'm not sure what those cards are, other than land tax. Is Serra's Blessing the one that gives you +2/+2, flying, and attacking doesn't tap?

My green deck used enchantresses to draw cards, and 'Exploration's to play multiple lands per turn, but I was told Exploration was banned.


And there are always elitist players everywhere, but not all players everywhere are elitists. Pick your crowd.

That's good to know. I guess I'll have to look a little harder.


I...
I...
AARRRRGGGG!!!!
(Sorry, just had to get that out)


??


Most libraries(that I know of on the east coast) have some kind of gaming night, and they are either really under played(bad), filled with newbies(good or bad depending), or a good mix of people practicing and newbies(good).
That should get you into the newer formats better(in my opinion) than a tournament or gaming store.
Visit your local library to learn more!

And learning is half the battle...

That's interesting. Do they have schedules or whatnot posted online?

[wadledo]

1. Of course you found really good cards under your bed. :smallmad:
2. Your best bet is to go to some thing like Current events or something similar on their web page, or just ask the librarian (that is what their there for).

[Krytha]

You're thinking of serra's embrace (which I also have... slap it on a white knight and it's hard to get off). Serra's blessing is a cheap 2 mana enchantment that gives vigilance to your creatures.

The deck is pretty defensive minded unless I open with a morphed exalted angel, but the curve goes

T1 - plains, land tax
T2 - Serra Sanctum (Urza's block legendary land - add W for each enchantment you control), Serra's blessing
T3 - plains, ghostly prison (opponents pay 2 for each attacking creature), exalted angel (4/5 flying life linked morph up for 4 - morphed down) - and at this point I have 5 white mana to play with, and 6 next turn if they went first (from land tax)
T4 - Jareth? Serra Angel? Morph up the exalted angel? WK + WK + WK? Lots of options.

[Grey Paladin]

Serra Angel is an horrific card, creatures that cost 5+ mana should be able to finish the game or give you an incredible advantage, like Teferi or Arc Slogger.

[Wonderboy]

Serra Angel is an horrific card, creatures that cost 5+ mana should be able to finish the game or give you an incredible advantage, like Teferi or Arc Slogger.


One of the main reasons I lost interest was because the players all seemed 'elitist'.

Not everyone is gunning for the World Championships, you know. It's not a horrific card; it's not Wood Elemental; it's just not a Tier 1 card.

[UserClone]

Heh, one time i won a game of unglued w/ my friends by genuinely casting a BFM. Then Rancor. In the same turn.

[Grey Paladin]

Not everyone is gunning for the World Championships, you know. It's not a horrific card; it's not Wood Elemental; it's just not a Tier 1 card.

Unlike D&D, magic IS about Player Versus Player combat ,and players who use inferior cards are very much alike to a Fighter dueling a Wizard.

I am not being elitist, I am just trying to help another player to improve, but if you insist telling someone else the truth is wrong, then I will lie from now on and keep this player's potential to achieve greatness in a perfect stasis.

[Were-Sandwich]

Winning isn't everything. Fun is.

[Grey Paladin]

Fun isn't the primary reason I play competitive games, challenge is.

Both Magic and Chess share one important element: they are, in essence, about growth as a player, and someone refusing to admit that Serra Angel is horrific compared to Teferi is the same as a chess player refusing to admit that the Queen is more valuable then a pawn, because playing with pawns is more fun.

I find no joy in never developing and always losing to players who do,
do you?

[Were-Sandwich]

Yeah but not everyone has a Teferi, and we have to make do without, rather than whining about it and scrapping the deck, like I've seen some people do.

On the elitist thing: Oftentimes, whilsts the elitist players are very good, they're not unbeatable. Unfortunately for them, some of them fail to recognise this fact. I remember once, my UR burn/control deck vs some low-tier tourney players Pickles deck. He didn't bother blocking my stuff and just let me hit him, so he could get his engine going.

Me: So, how is this dekc so brilliant? I'm winning.
Him: I get my combo off next turn, and then I win because you can't do anything for the rest of the game
Me: You're on 5 life
Him: Yeah, but my combo goes off next turn. Your turn
Me: *Untap, draw* Lava Axe. No counters? I win then.
Him: wtf? No one plays Lava Axe!
Me: I do.

Evidently, this guy wasn't as good as he said he was. I beat him.

[Grey Paladin]

When not playing in a tournament I use proxy cards (I take any cards I have, put them into Protectors, and put in a small piece of paper that has the name of the card this card is supposed to be)

And a better player winning with a bad deck against a good one is rather likely as long as the gap isn't TOO large, let me put this in the form of my favorite magic metaphor:

Treat a deck as a machine, one that is statistically optimized to perform certain tasks, and has a Maximum Potential value, but requires a pilot to use.
A Pilot has a certain skill rateing, the higher the pilot's skill the closer the Machine will come to its full potential, but in the end even the best pilot in the world cannot beat a mediocre one in a decent machine when all he has is scrap metal, the pilot brings his scrap to 100%, but his 60% skill rateing opponent uses a machine who's potency is more then double that of his opponent's, rendering the match hopeless.

Also, recall that all machines have a certain Entropy factor, that may increase or reduce the machine's effectiveness randomly, thus greater decks can lose to vastly inferior ones once in a while even if both pilots are of equal skill, simply because Entropy was too strong on one side.

And to be honest, Piloting is the easy part, the real heroes are the engineers even though pilots get all the glory.

[Krytha]

Well this is where points of view diverge. It is entirely possible that GreyPaladin falls under Spikefightwicky's definition of an elitist player.

OP doesn't seem like the type who feels the need to test himself at tournaments - and honestly, you don't have to to be "the best you can be". My old playgroup had a few people who had picked up magic only the year prior but could pilot a draft as well as any scene going veteran. Suggesting that Serra Angel is crap is just wrong. It is a credible threat, even if WotCs power creep has made it incomparable to the new bombs they keep pumping out. Additionally, you're going to find Teferi very hard to cast in a mono-white angel deck.

I personally hate proxies, netdecking, whatever. Half of magic for me is coming up with a deck concept that works by myself, out of the cardpool that I have. Can you play with cards you don't have at non-proxy tournaments? No. So why sit at home and wish you had cards you don't have and play with those "cards"? If you're testing 90 different decks before you hit a tournament, it's a viable way to go, but just having 3 proxy decks so I can pretend I own the hottest thing in T2 seems silly to me.

[Decoy Lockbox]

To the OP:
The total value of the cards you listed is likely in the $300 dollar range, largely due to the wrath of gods. Those things are quite pricy, and quite good.

This thing about having fun vs developing playing skill is in interesting debate. I find myself in an interesting problem with the magic-playing friends I have -- my 4 main decks are too good for the group (who are largely casual players), which leads to short and unfun games. However, I cannot bring myself to make a "bad" deck using less good cards/strategies, because I have not done that since I started to play long ago. So I have this dilemma -- consciously make bad decks (and have more challenging games) or continue making good decks (and have brief, unfun games). So far the main solution I have found is to have one of my friends play one of my decks against another me, which tends to cause interesting games.

Just for everyone's info, the 4 decks of which I speak are:

White/blue/green Mirrari's Wake control (with fact or fiction, wrath of god, swords to plowshares, countermagic, varies dual/pain/multilands, mirrari's wake and decree of justice)

Red burn (lightning bolt, incinerate, fireblast, mogg fanatic, slith firewalker, grim lavamancer)

Green stompy (rogue elephant, blastoderm, rancor, troll ascetic, berserk)

Black "Grand Empyrial Necro" (necropotence, empyrial plate, hymn to tourach, hypnotic specter, like 20 2/1 for BB creatures with protection from white)

Even when I tried to make a truly bad deck, it ended up being too much for my friend's decks to handle. Terravore+Armageddon seemed like an easily disruptible combo on paper, but it worked great in play. Hell, I even made an all uncommon and common deck and it still whooped up on them.

Sorry for that tangent. But as said earlier in this thread, some people play for sheer fun, some for skill improvement, and some for both. If someone is fine playing their poorly constructed, yet fun deck, why take that away from them? If they ask "why is my deck losing so much", then you give em advice.

@Krytha -- I agree that making decks out of a limited cardpool is very fun and challenging. I have started preferring sealed to constructed due to this. Its sorta like playing a Precon character in D&D and making due with what you have.

[Grey Paladin]

Well this is where points of view diverge. It is entirely possible that GreyPaladin falls under Spikefightwicky's definition of an elitist player.

OP doesn't seem like the type who feels the need to test himself at tournaments - and honestly, you don't have to to be "the best you can be". My old playgroup had a few people who had picked up magic only the year prior but could pilot a draft as well as any scene going veteran. Suggesting that Serra Angel is crap is just wrong. It is a credible threat, even if WotCs power creep has made it incomparable to the new bombs they keep pumping out. Additionally, you're going to find Teferi very hard to cast in a mono-white angel deck.

I personally hate proxies, netdecking, whatever. Half of magic for me is coming up with a deck concept that works by myself, out of the cardpool that I have. Can you play with cards you don't have at non-proxy tournaments? No. So why sit at home and wish you had cards you don't have and play with those "cards"? If you're testing 90 different decks before you hit a tournament, it's a viable way to go, but just having 3 proxy decks so I can pretend I own the hottest thing in T2 seems silly to me.

If you don't attempt to be the best you can, what is the purpose of trying at all? its like saying "Sure, I could go to school and study, but I'll just be a janitor instead, no competition!"

As to Serra Angel, a Fighter is only a threat to other Fighters.

What stops you from using proxies to test your unique ideas? proxies simply save you cash. Using mostly real cards for Casual seems as silly to me as people having to buy sheets of papers that have Feats written on them to play D&D. (Reminds me of my friend responding to the article claiming that 4E will be even more miniature focused: "If you don't have the miniature of the monster you can't fight it, YOU JUST CAN'T!!!!")

If you like working with limited resources, play in drafts, I am not the richest person and I, for one, am not going to waste the cash required to build all my decks when I can use a much cheaper alternative that works as well.

Decoy Lockbox: I find that saving draft decks and simply using them until you next draft solves this issue, if you wish to play constructed you may want to tutor your friends to your level and help them build their decks.

[Krytha]

If you don't attempt to be the best you can, what is the purpose of trying at all? its like saying "Sure, I could go to school and study, but I'll just be a janitor instead, no competition!"

As to Serra Angel, a Fighter is only a threat to other Fighters.

What stops you from using proxies to test your unique ideas? proxies simply save you cash. Using mostly real cards for Casual seems as silly to me as people having to buy sheets of papers that have Feats written on them to play D&D. (Reminds me of my friend responding to the article claiming that 4E will be even more miniature focused: "If you don't have the miniature of the monster you can't fight it, YOU JUST CAN'T!!!!")

If you like working with limited resources, play in drafts, I am not the richest person and I, for one, am not going to waste the cash required to build all my decks when I can use a much cheaper alternative that works as well.

Decoy Lockbox: I find that saving draft decks and simply using them until you next draft solves this issue, if you wish to play constructed you may want to tutor your friends to your level and help them build their decks.

Are you even paying attention to what you're saying? Be the best you can be or don't bother? Well, technically anyone can make it to the Pro tour if they drop all other aspects of their lives and play magic 24/7, but I find myself to be perfectly competent without becoming a level 5 judge. Hey, have you won any pro tours yet? Well then you're obviously not at your most optimal just yet, so you need to drop everything else and play more. Maybe your play group is terrible, but there is plenty of challenge over here. And no, you don't need a ton of bomb rares to make a good deck. Nantuko husk with zuberas is cheap and effective.

A Serra Angel is a THREAT. It says deal with me now, or you have 5 turns to live. There isn't a single player in the world who doesn't start at 20 life.

I still wont use proxies because I don't see the need. Do I ever feel like some crazy sunken hope lockdown? Not really. After playing for this long, I don't need to playtest to see the obvious synergy in the cards and if I like the concept enough, I'll do it. Mana cost, speed, disruptability, effect - I look at all sorts of things before deciding to put it together and proxying is just more work for something I might not even like anyway.

There is a difference between drafts and just building decks with the cards you have. Limited is extremely narrow, building a deck you want is much more expansive, even if you don't always have the 4 ofs (which I usually buy singles of if theyre that important). Drafting (once) each week is still 20 bucks where I live.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Serra Angel is not a bad card, and as an oldschool - present player (started in 1994) I certainly have fond memories of it. But the simple fact of the matter is that the 'ol Serra just isn't fast enough for today's environment. Although certain types of cards (card draw, countering, burn, extra turns) have been weakened since Magic's early days, creatures have gotten stronger, better, cheaper and faster. A good example of this would be Troll Ascetic -- if that card had been printed in Alpha it would have been viewed as obscenely powerful, despite the fact that the set also contained Ancestral Recall and time walk. Creatures, especially big ones, were just not made as powerful or efficient back then as they are now.

The real test of Serra Angel's power is a pragmatic one -- find some major tournament reports from the pro tour, worlds, etc and see how many Serra Angels are included in the deck lists. I would wager that it is either none or very few.

[Krytha]

I'm not saying that Serra Angel is viable in today's T2, I'm simply asserting the fact that it is a decent creature. Not overpowered, not overcosted, but it will get the job done on a clock, draw removal, and clog up the airways on both offense and defence.

I'm also going to say that Magic is not all about competition and challenge. Magic can be about fun just as much as the other criteria. Because... oh I dunno, not everyone wants to play or play against turn 1 kills all day or stasis decks. In my experience, when the people who play casually get beaten up and lectured by the "pros", the "pros" don't get invited over very often.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Yeah, its definitely better to only "help out" younger players when they ask you for advice. I think the same is largely true for D&D too, if any of you play that.

I see the point you were trying to make about Serra Angel. It is definitely a decent creature, and evaluated from the basic premise of creature costing (X/X flying with extra ability for X+1 mana is a good deal) it is actually quite good.

[MyriadSouls]

I'm actually kind of surprised to find Magic players here...I personally just play online but whatever.

As for the argument about good cards or winning vs. bad cards or fun or something...personally I'm in the "any cards + doing something horrifically complicated = creating some really cool effect" camp (meaning I don't actually win much =P) but I would kindly direct you all to one Mark Rosewater's article on different player types. I believe it can be found online at the MtG website.

Also, if these are still in question:
Serra Sanctums = A legendary land that has "Tap: add W equal to the number of enchantments you control to your mana pool" (or something like that)
Ghostly Prison = 2W, Enchantment, "Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays 1 for each attacking creature."
Serra's Blessing = I actually don't know this one off the top of my head.

Spiritmongers are awesome, Pernicious Deed rocks, and maybe green decks can outspeed white decks but that's what playing green AND white is for =D

[Decoy Lockbox]

Can green outspeed white? Are you familiar with my good friend Senor Stompy?

rogue elephant
rancor
berserk + eternal witness
river boa
blastoderm

its the only deck of mine that can routinely outspeed my burn deck, which tends to kill on turn 3-4.

[Krytha]

I'm actually kind of surprised to find Magic players here...I personally just play online but whatever.

As for the argument about good cards or winning vs. bad cards or fun or something...personally I'm in the "any cards + doing something horrifically complicated = creating some really cool effect" camp (meaning I don't actually win much =P) but I would kindly direct you all to one Mark Rosewater's article on different player types. I believe it can be found online at the MtG website.

Also, if these are still in question:
Serra Sanctums = A legendary land that has "Tap: add W equal to the number of enchantments you control to your mana pool" (or something like that)
Ghostly Prison = 2W, Enchantment, "Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays 1 for each attacking creature."
Serra's Blessing = I actually don't know this one off the top of my head.

Spiritmongers are awesome, Pernicious Deed rocks, and maybe green decks can outspeed white decks but that's what playing green AND white is for =D

Basically, you're a "Johnny". ghostly prison costs 2 for each attacking creature. The rest of the cards are up in a previous post.

[MyriadSouls]

I honestly wouldn't know about massive speed or tournament-level plays or anything...I play the fastest decks of all of my friends and I generally start really doing stuff around turn 4.

Yeah, I know I'm a Johnny...aspects of the other two thrown in, but dominantly that.
Recently made two decks based on Null Profusion and another on Spellweaver Volute...rather ineffective but fun XD
Dunno, that's just my bag of beans, but to each his own. One of my friends, for example, is a big white fan simply by virtue of Glorious Anthem and then beating people down with creatures.

[Decoy Lockbox]

As a freaky combo type player, this might be something you would be interested in, a deck idea I had a while ago which is very cool but kinda unwieldy.

I wanted to make a deck which was sorta like charging up a giant cannon. To do this, I would run all the Mana Batteries (from legends/4th edition) which essentially allowed you to store mana in them, similar to the storage lands from today (dreadship reef, calciform pools etc). However it cost colorless mana to store mana in these batteries, so I would use the Thran Turbine, which gives you the option of generating 2 colorless during your upkeep, but cannot be used to play spells. So each turn I would charge up all my mana batteries on free turbine mana, and then use card draw / tutors to find a fireball or disintegrate when the time was right to "fire the cannon" and kill someone. I also came up with a good way to avoid being killed while charging up: Glacial Chasm is a land which prevents all damage dealt to you, with a cumulative upkeep on "pay 2 life". Using the modern rules for cumulative upkeep, which uses "age counters", and the card Power Conduit, I could simultaneously stay alive while charging up my batteries even further.

Of course, the deck never got made.

[MyriadSouls]

Hope you don't mind if I take my own spin on it...which, incidentally, means that though the deck has yet to be built, it will probably be built by the end of the day.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Go nuts, I'd love to see how it turns out.

[Grey Paladin]

Are you even paying attention to what you're saying? Be the best you can be or don't bother? Well, technically anyone can make it to the Pro tour if they drop all other aspects of their lives and play magic 24/7, but I find myself to be perfectly competent without becoming a level 5 judge. Hey, have you won any pro tours yet? Well then you're obviously not at your most optimal just yet, so you need to drop everything else and play more. Maybe your play group is terrible, but there is plenty of challenge over here. And no, you don't need a ton of bomb rares to make a good deck. Nantuko husk with zuberas is cheap and effective.

A Serra Angel is a THREAT. It says deal with me now, or you have 5 turns to live. There isn't a single player in the world who doesn't start at 20 life.

I still wont use proxies because I don't see the need. Do I ever feel like some crazy sunken hope lockdown? Not really. After playing for this long, I don't need to playtest to see the obvious synergy in the cards and if I like the concept enough, I'll do it. Mana cost, speed, disruptability, effect - I look at all sorts of things before deciding to put it together and proxying is just more work for something I might not even like anyway.

There is a difference between drafts and just building decks with the cards you have. Limited is extremely narrow, building a deck you want is much more expansive, even if you don't always have the 4 ofs (which I usually buy singles of if theyre that important). Drafting (once) each week is still 20 bucks where I live.
All I am saying is that if you are purposefully do not *try* your best when you do play . . .

Mind you, before I quit the game a few years ago I made it to Israel's championship (and missed the prize pool by 0.3% :smallmad: ), so while I never became a true pro I did progress quite a bit because I never stopped learning.

Judging Serra Angel as playable because she can theoretically end the game in one turn is incredibly foolish, its like saying the 20/20 flying indestructible 30 mana token that comes from that Coldsnap land is good because it can end the game in one turn.
So, using your wording, say it with me, Kird Ape, R, 2/3. a much better card then Serra in every single aspect and a common to boot.

Dual Lands are 15$ each, ALL decks play at least 4 copies, not everyone are made of money/have parents to pay for their hobbies.
And, no matter how long you play you still need to test the deck, because magic is a game of statistics.

Drafting is incredibly expensive, yes, but I didn't think it is a concern for a player refusing to use proxies . . .


When I hear a person saying "I don't want to improve" about anything it makes me die a little inside, no matter if he said it about his profession or simply a game.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I suppose I should post my thoughts on 'Elitist' players.

When I say 'Elitist', I mean the players that get their decks by following the current Magic online champion and copying his deck card for card, and then goes to play, and acts smug as if he built the deck himself, and makes fun of anyone he wins against that isn't playing any one of the top 3 decks out there. I can't stand that mentality and it very much drove me away. There's never any constructive criticism that comes out of these people, mostly just cheap jabs at the expense of other players (though I find it entertaining that these people tend to lack any social graces). The worse is that I've seen them do all this to kids that are playing (who obviously have what they call 'jank' decks). The kid's only 10, of course he doesn't have the resources to make the 'uber deck'....

Now that that's out, I know that Serra Angels aren't even close to the same threat they were when I first started out (though they're rare now... blaphemy!). I wouldn't using them for a couple of reasons:
1 - I'm currently somewhat lacking anything resembling a 'card pool', having mostly old decks to work with, so anything bigger than a 2 cost creature's decent right now.
2 - Nostalgia factor - My first starter (my only cards for first long time) contained a Serra Angel and a Vesuvan Doppelganger, so I tend to want to use them just for the sake of it.

BTW, have the Doppelgangers been reprinted any time recently?

That said, I don't really have the same research time I had back in the day, so at first I'll likely just stick with what I know and learn about new cards through other players using them on me. That and I don't want to drop hundreds of dollars to get myself back on track.

(For the record, Grey Paladin doesn't come off as 'Elitist')

[Grey Paladin]

I suppose I should post my thoughts on 'Elitist' players.

When I say 'Elitist', I mean the players that get their decks by following the current Magic online champion and copying his deck card for card, and then goes to play, and acts smug as if he built the deck himself


This is what made me quit, too.
Piloting is truly only about 20% of Magic, Engineering is the most important aspect.

[Krytha]

All I am saying is that if you are purposefully do not *try* your best when you do play . . .
Um ok, do you bomb out every single newb you play against? you must be so much fun to play with. Nobody doesn't play to their capacity in a fair match. You make do with what you get, and don't make bone-headed plays.


Judging Serra Angel as playable because she can theoretically end the game in one turn is incredibly foolish, its like saying the 20/20 flying indestructible 30 mana token that comes from that Coldsnap land is good because it can end the game in one turn.
So, using your wording, say it with me, Kird Ape, R, 2/3. a much better card then Serra in every single aspect and a common to boot.

You don't make sense. The only time Serra Angel will realistically end the game in one turn is when your opponent is at 4 or less life and has a blocking dilemma and I never said anything of the sort, ever. I said it's playable because it is a threat with fair attributes for its cost and rounds out a curve nicely. Why you decided to bring up Marit Lage, I have no clue... and you probably don't either. Kird Ape? What does that have to do with anything? Are we being conditional now? Kird Ape is terrible if you don't have forests! O NOZ! In a deck designed for it, Kird Ape is a powerhouse, but comparing an early beater with something 4 mana higher up on the curve is ridiculous. Ok ok, enlighten me here. Is intuition better than mindtwist? Oh dear!


Dual Lands are 15$ each, ALL decks play at least 4 copies, not everyone are made of money/have parents to pay for their hobbies.
And, no matter how long you play you still need to test the deck, because magic is a game of statistics.
All decks? what is this? All competitive decks might, but there is no way all decks run 4 duals. Not to mention not all competitive decks DO run 4 duals because sometimes there just isn't the need. I test my decks when I play them against other people. Goldfishing is incredibly boring.


Drafting is incredibly expensive, yes, but I didn't think it is a concern for a player refusing to use proxies . . . yeah it isn't a concern... because I play with the cards I have. There was a time when I would go out and get a box + some, but I don't feel that is necessary anymore.


When I hear a person saying "I don't want to improve" about anything it makes me die a little inside, no matter if he said it about his profession or simply a game. That's a shame, but that is also their choice. Not everyone wants to play magic to do hours of math before finding out that their deck doesn't work. That's right. Some people play for the big creatures, for the art, for the 4-way pestilence draw, aka for "fun". It's nice.

[Jerthanis]

Serra Angel isn't that bad. I mean, it's a little expensive, but there are times your deck just doesn't work the way it's supposed to, and you draw too much mana or something. To be fair, White doesn't exactly have an overabundance of large creatures anyway... I mean, you wouldn't thank your lucky stars you drew a Serra Angel, and it wouldn't win you battles in pro tournaments, but it'll still be something to beat up your friends with.

On the subject of trying to make the best deck in the world versus making a deck to mess around with friends, I think it comes down to the individual. My personal philosophy says that when you make a deck, you should have in mind first and foremost how it defeats an opponent and you should try your hardest to make that idea work as best you can make it. Whether it be through big creatures, unblockable creatures, direct damage, whatever... all decks should also pay attention to land ratios, but beyond that, further optimization should be purely optional, and should suit the group you're planning on playing with. It's no fun when someone feels like being a jerk and stomping around because he knows he's the big fish, and even if it's satisfying, we should all try to avoid doing it. I play with my friends primarily, but some of them get upset when they lose repeatedly, so I don't try too hard to win all the time. I'm more happy playing and losing repeatedly than playing and winning twice and never playing again. I just like the playing and the making funny/interesting decks part of the game.

Also, something to take into account is how much of a "jerk" your deck is to play. A deck based on Ankh of Mishra, Storm Cauldron and Manabarbs would be amazingly frustrating to lose to (irregardless of how effective it is) while a straight green mana production/big creature deck feels alright to lose against in a way.

Also, I really don't like proxy, even in casual play (though for pure testing purposes it's fine of course, also subbing one land for another "In this deck, Islands are Mountains... I ran out of spare mountains while I was making this deck" is fine) because it feels like you could go to any extent with it... pasting printouts of entire decks onto basic lands until you've got exactly the deck you'd have if you had 500 dollars to spend. I guess this is partially because I play casually with friends though. I just feel that it's not fair to the people who don't care enough, and just use whatever they get out of commons boxes or whatever.

[Grey Paladin]

(I meant to say "5" when speaking of SA)

Please explain me, what purpose Serra serves that another card doesn't do at least twice as well?

Serra is an horrific finisher, and that's her only likely role, if you play her as simply another pressure source Kird Ape is superior, Savannah Lions is superior, Rogue Elephant is superior, Dark Confidant is vastly superior, and Cloud of Faeries is vastly superior.

Serra can only be compared to beaters because she isn't even in the same league as other finishers.

In the format where Mind Twist is legal, then yes Intuition is far better, although Mind Twist would be incredibly powerful in any other meta game.

Jerthanis:
Making mistakes in deckbuilding is worse then making mistakes while playing, if you purposefully gimp your deck you may as well not attack or cast counters.

I just help my friends tune up their decks to my level, and I can expect myself to lose about half of the time to them, this I find fun - a match of skill.

And about proxies, is it more fair if the so called "pro" bought a netdeck for 500$?

[Krytha]

Please explain me, what purpose Serra serves that another card doesn't do at least twice as well?

Serra is an horrific finisher, and that's her only likely role, if you play her as simply another pressure source Kird Ape is superior, Savannah Lions is superior, Rogue Elephant is superior, Dark Confidant is vastly superior, and Cloud of Faeries is vastly superior.

Serra can only be compared to beaters because she isn't even in the same league as other finishers.

In the format where Mind Twist is legal, then yes Intuition is far better, although Mind Twist would be incredibly powerful in any other meta game.


For the last time. Serra Angel is not the BEST CARD EVER. But just because there are other cards which are better does not make it a horrific finisher in any way shape or form. A finisher, a beater, whatever. If it takes chunks of life out of your opponent then it is EFFECTIVE. What? What is Rogue elephant doing up there? Nobody plays Rogue Elephant anymore! It's COMPLETELY outdated by newer shinier cards which can do its job 9 times better! Zomg! Yes, that is the sum of your argument against Serra Angel.

All the cards you listed are weenies. You like weenie decks? Tell me, how do they do against pyroclasm? Sulfurous blast? So you have Kird Ape and Serra Angel out and someone innocent bloods you. Hmm, I guess you would throw out the Serra Angel because it is HORRIFIC and you can't bear to play with it. Those cards are useful UP TO A POINT. SA has its own zone of usefulness - as all cards in magic do.

Intuition will only ever be amazing in a deck designed to abuse it. Mindtwist will be powerful in any black deck. Which brings me back to my point. All cards in magic have their uses. Not all are Yawgwins, but they have a role to play, and they will do just that, even if fancier, better versions eventually come to the table.

[Were-Sandwich]

^This man. He has a flava. A right-on flava!

[Grey Paladin]

For the last time. Serra Angel is not the BEST CARD EVER. But just because there are other cards which are better does not make it a horrific finisher in any way shape or form. A finisher, a beater, whatever. If it takes chunks of life out of your opponent then it is EFFECTIVE. What? What is Rogue elephant doing up there? Nobody plays Rogue Elephant anymore! It's COMPLETELY outdated by newer shinier cards which can do its job 9 times better! Zomg! Yes, that is the sum of your argument against Serra Angel.

All the cards you listed are weenies. You like weenie decks? Tell me, how do they do against pyroclasm? Sulfurous blast? So you have Kird Ape and Serra Angel out and someone innocent bloods you. Hmm, I guess you would throw out the Serra Angel because it is HORRIFIC and you can't bear to play with it. Those cards are useful UP TO A POINT. SA has its own zone of usefulness - as all cards in magic do.

Intuition will only ever be amazing in a deck designed to abuse it. Mindtwist will be powerful in any black deck. Which brings me back to my point. All cards in magic have their uses. Not all are Yawgwins, but they have a role to play, and they will do just that, even if fancier, better versions eventually come to the table.

Cards can only ever be compared to other cards with the same roles, as soon as another card can do something better then the inferior card will either become the secondary enabler in that deck, or (like Serra) become useless.

Serra's only possible role is as a beater, she sucks at everything else too hard to be even considered, and her cost rules her as one of the worst beaters.

I am sick of the fact you keep repeating yourself with no new points, so for the last time, for every given role there are better cards, and there are inferior ones, the better cards are playable, the inferior are not, thats it.

Magic is not rocket science, just as a Warblade will always be superior to a Warrior so shall Serra always be outclassed while there are other cards in her environment that fit her role better.

Yes, my entire argument against Serra Angel is that there are cheaper cards that are NINE TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE, as you have put it, a card that is nine times WORST then another for the same price isn't horrific?

[Were-Sandwich]

I am sick of the fact you keep repeating yourself with no new points, so for the last time, for every given role there are better cards, and there are inferior ones, the better cards are playable, the inferior are not, thats it.



So, everyone should only ever use the best cards ever printed, and nothing else? No thanks, I like having more than four cards in my deck.

[Grey Paladin]

Best cards for a certain purpose in the specified format, yes,
Isn't "best beater if I already have 4 of X in my deck" a role?

[Decoy Lockbox]

I think it really comes down to purpose. If I decided to make a high caliber deck that I expected to beat all or most opponents in a given metagame, Serra Angel is probably a bad call (especially if, like you said, her role has been replaced by a more efficient or survivable card). But if you are making a deck to, say, just play some random people or your friends with, it wouldn't be bad at all. Hell, I bet some people use her cause they like the art or like the idea of beating someone down with an angel. Not everyone makes deck decisions entirely on efficiency and applicability, as there are multiple layers to Magic -- deck design, in-game plays, flavor, etc. There are in fact some people who play magic soley because they like the flavor.

But if you expect to go around owning people in serious play with a Serra Angel, you will be disappointed.

[Grey Paladin]

I think it really comes down to purpose. If I decided to make a high caliber deck that I expected to beat all or most opponents in a given metagame, Serra Angel is probably a bad call (especially if, like you said, her role has been replaced by a more efficient or survivable card). But if you are making a deck to, say, just play some random people or your friends with, it wouldn't be bad at all. Hell, I bet some people use her cause they like the art or like the idea of beating someone down with an angel. Not everyone makes deck decisions entirely on efficiency and applicability, as there are multiple layers to Magic -- deck design, in-game plays, flavor, etc. There are in fact some people who play magic soley because they like the flavor.

But if you expect to go around owning people in serious play with a Serra Angel, you will be disappointed.
Agreed, but sadly there is (so far) no Flavor metagame, though if there was you could be sure as hell I'd dominate it with my Myr deck
:smalltongue:

[Krytha]

Cards can only ever be compared to other cards with the same roles, as soon as another card can do something better then the inferior card will either become the secondary enabler in that deck, or (like Serra) become useless.

Serra's only possible role is as a beater, she sucks at everything else too hard to be even considered, and her cost rules her as one of the worst beaters. Sigh. At 5 mana for a defensively enabled flying body, her cost is prohibitive? As I've said a zillion times, so WHAT if she isn't the best creature ever? It most certainly doesn't make her the worst, or even middling.


I am sick of the fact you keep repeating yourself with no new points, so for the last time, for every given role there are better cards, and there are inferior ones, the better cards are playable, the inferior are not, thats it.
Yes, it's the same point over and over again because you never get it. Not that your points are new and original each post. Not to mention this is so wrong it's not even funny. A card that is inferior does not become unplayable in any way shape or form. It may not be the OPTIMAL solution, but that doesn't mean it won't ever, ever get the job done.


Magic is not rocket science, just as a Warblade will always be superior to a Warrior so shall Serra always be outclassed while there are other cards in her environment that fit her role better.

Yes, my entire argument against Serra Angel is that there are cheaper cards that are NINE TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE, as you have put it, a card that is nine times WORST then another for the same price isn't horrific?
See, other people might not see you as elitist, but I sure as heck do. It's like you will refuse to play with any single card that hasn't won a pro tour on its back. Newsflash - Magic isn't just for you "pros"; you're allowed to use cards that won't singlehandedly win a game. I've spent my share of cash amassing the Spike collections, but I will never, ever turn my nose up at a card that is decent, if not good. These cards aren't gosu, they're not broken, they're not GGIWIN, but they aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be. Not even close. And in T2 right now, I'd like you to show me a card that is CHEAPER and NINE TIMES BETTER than SA. Because I want 4.

[Fleeing Coward]

Sadly enough at 3WW, Serra Angel is actually one of white's only choices for a beater. The only cards that I'd consider better without a deck built around it are Adarkar Valkyrie and Crovax, Ascendant Hero which both cost 4WW.
Given the right deck though, I'd say that Hunted Lammasu and Dust Elemental are technically superior costing only 2WW.
I'd say Grey Paladin should do more research before saying that Angel is worthless junk. Sure there are other creatures in T2 that are better at the same cost but NONE of them are white. White was never meant to have monstrous beaters, that's green's territory but what white does have is some of the best weenies and more defensive oriented cards.

[Grey Paladin]

Fleeing Coward: There are no Mono decks anymore and the multicolor Ravnica creatures are superior(not to mention many staple beaters are white and the only Aggro deck that doesn't plays white is Gruul), I do not think I even need to make my point about T1. (btw, Hunted Lamasu is worse then Serra)

Krytha: I do not accept your points because they are utterly wrong, Sure, you can still use horses for transportation, but why the f' would you?

Horses, like Serra, will get the job done in the exact same way when compared to cars, cars have left horses "unplayable" in their role.

Sure there are very specific situations where horses may go to places cars cannot, but thats what Sideboards exist for - even One with Nothing has once been common in sideboards and you cannot argue that isn't an horrific card.

And for the card nine times cheaper and nine times better, I used your own exaggerated words so you should be the one showing me that mythical card :smallwink:

[Fleeing Coward]

Fleeing Coward: There are no Mono decks anymore and the multicolor Ravnica creatures are superior(not to mention many staple beaters are white and the only Aggro deck that doesn't plays white is Gruul), I do not think I even need to make my point about T1. (btw, Hunted Lamasu is worse then Serra)

Again, show me the proof, which 5 to cast multicolored creature that uses white mana are you talking about that's superior to Serra Angel in current t2?
As for Hunted Lamasu, I did say with the right deck tailored to suit it.

EDIT: No mono colored decks anymore in t2? My current WW deck consistently beats many of the current so called tier 1 decks out there or does that not count since not many people use it?

[Grey Paladin]

Again, show me the proof, which 5 to cast multicolored creature that uses white mana are you talking about that's superior to Serra Angel in current t2?
As for Hunted Lamasu, I did say with the right deck tailored to suit it.

EDIT: No mono colored decks anymore in t2? My current WW deck consistently beats many of the current so called tier 1 decks out there or does that not count since not many people use it?

5? I do not need to go that far, Ghost Council of Horzova, Loxodon Redeemer, heck, even watchwolf, are better then Serra.

Your deck is not in the metagame and hasn't proven itself in a major tournament yet, it could be the pilots you are facing are inferior to their decks, playing in a tournament of a decent size and setting is the only way to insure the decks are what is tested and not merely the pilots.

[Fleeing Coward]

5? I do not need to go that far, Ghost Council of Horzova, Loxodon Redeemer, heck, even watchwolf, are better then Serra.

Your deck is not in the metagame and hasn't proven itself in a major tournament yet, it could be the pilots you are facing are inferior to their decks, playing in a tournament of a decent size and setting is the only way to insure the decks are what is tested and not merely the pilots.

Let's see, Ghost Council 1 converted mana less but alot more restrictive in turns of what mana you need to pay although I guess the amount of painlands available makes it slightly easier. Ability by itself isn't that great, so flying and vigilance lost for a tradeoff of 2 life basically. Don't see how that is much better than Serra.
Loxodon I assume you meant the Hierarch, typical green 4 for 4 beater, again no flying, vigilance. Although I guess it's ability is useful in a sense. Again without any evasion ability or trample, it gives you opponent the time to find an answer or stall with their own ground creatures.
Don't bring Watchwolf into this, more of a beefed up weenie than a real beater.
As for my deck, it's still in testing but so far, it's more doing pretty well in the current metagame, a few bad matchups but nothing too bad. I agree that it probably needs testing in a major tournament if I can find the time for one but my FNM opponents ain't exactly pushovers either.

[Krytha]

Krytha: I do not accept your points because they are utterly wrong, Sure, you can still use horses for transportation, but why the f' would you?

Horses, like Serra, will get the job done in the exact same way when compared to cars, cars have left horses "unplayable" in their role.

Sure there are very specific situations where horses may go to places cars cannot, but thats what Sideboards exist for - even One with Nothing has once been common in sideboards and you cannot argue that isn't an horrific card.

And for the card nine times cheaper and nine times better, I used your own exaggerated words so you should be the one showing me that mythical card :smallwink:

There are no mono decks anymore? Someone will always bring white weenie to the table, even if they only get one blue envelope for the entire PTQs. They aren't big now, what with Ravnica's multicoloured craziness, but that only lasts for so long.

You use a horse when you can't afford a car? It seems fairly obvious. Cars have made horses suboptimal, but not unuseable. Otherwise, they would all be in glue factories by now. Everyone knows SA won't be in a T2 powerhouse deck, but why is that the only thing that matters?

My exaggerated words are partially true, because there is no white beater in standard with superior stats and ability for less. Forget about nine times better, find me something twice as good in that colour and CC. I like Dust Elemental, but if that's the offering, I'll laugh.

[Grey Paladin]

Krytha: On these points, I completely agree with you, Competitive play is not the only thing that matters, but it is the only way we have to measure how good a card is.

I use proxies so there is no point for me to use wooden horses over wooden cards :smalltongue:

as to the WW, you can also be sure as hell someone will always show up with a Theme deck.

Fleeing Coward:
Are you kidding? Ghost's ability is incredibly powerful (IF! you use the stack in a clever way), far more powerful then Evasion and the (relatively) useless vigilance, there's a reason Ghosts used to sell for twice as much as Rumbling Slums.

The Redeemer is incredibly useful if you run low toughness creatures, as Pyroclasm still sees play.

Watchwolf is a 3/3 monster for GW, if thats not a beater I am afraid to know what is.


In modern aggro decks evasion hardly matters, most of them play 27+ creatures and the rest's burn and utility, Aggro tries to overwhelm the opposition with raw numbers.

[Fleeing Coward]

Fleeing Coward:
Are you kidding? Ghost's ability is incredibly powerful (IF! you use the stack in a clever way), far more powerful then Evasion and the (relatively) useless vigilance, there's a reason Ghosts used to sell for twice as much as Rumbling Slums.

The Redeemer is incredibly useful if you run low toughness creatures, as Pyroclasm still sees play.

Watchwolf is a 3/3 monster for GW, if thats not a beater I am afraid to know what is.


In modern aggro decks evasion hardly matters, most of them play 27+ creatures and the rest's burn and utility, Aggro tries to overwhelm the opposition with raw numbers.


I admit Ghost is quite a good card but it's ability is pretty much a regen that deals abit of damage at the cost of a creature, sure you can sac dead creatures to it but it's still once a turn and if you have the creatures out there to sac you most likely already have an upper hand anyways.
I'm not denying it's probably a slightly better beater for T2 atm but it's not really that much more powerful and against any quality opponent you're not the only one that'll be trying to work the stack to your advantage.

You might argue that Loxodon adds some protection to pryroclasm but it'll most likely be 5th turn before you can use the ability and by then they'd most likely have already played the pyroclasm if you had a few weenies out. Besides, if you're running Loxodon, you're obviously playing GW and there's plenty of answers to pyroclasm for that already that works with an aggro deck - Gaea's Anthem, Glorious Anthem, even Wojek Siren, and you're not always going to be able to keep open 2 mana to use the ability.

Watchwolf to me is just another weenie to pile the pressure on your opponent, sure it can come out second turn but it's still only a 3/3.

Now for the last point and the one I completely disagree with. Evasion is the lifeblood that makes aggro decks work, if all you have is a bunch of creatures without evasion, control players can easily stall your with their early drops before they bring out the heavy artillery. The very reason WW are able to stay competitive in any environment is because of the evasion. Soltari Priests, Suntail Hawks, Leonin Skyhunters, Paladin en-Vec and sometimes even Mistral Chargers are the heart and soul of any T2 WW deck because of their evasion, without them, you pretty much are without any threats to the top decks in the environment.

[Grey Paladin]

Explain Gruul/Boros/Ghost Dad/Snakes, each deck, at best, contains a single creature with evasion.

And as I have said, Ghost Council is one of the best creatures ever so I wouldn't say it is only "slightly" better then Serra.

[Fleeing Coward]

I stand corrected, when you're using red (Gruul/Boros), you can burn your way through so actual creatures with evasion ain't as necessary. But any other color, evasion tactics is all you've got to rely on.
Ghost daddy and Snakes are both more of a control/aggro hybrid rather than a pure aggro deck and even then a few of the ghost decks I've seem included quite abit of evasion.

As for Ghost Council, I'm not disputing it's a great card and overall is way better than Serra Angel, I'm just saying from a pure beater point of view without taking into consideration synergies, it's not really that much better.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Wow, all this kind of shows that I've been out of the loop for a while. I don't really know what most of those cards mentioned do.

And like Krytha said, right now, I'm living in a world where I only have horses, but everyone else has bullet trains, so I'll have to spend some time trying to do some train robbing to find out what's being played.

Do people still generally refuse to play a type 1 deck against a type 2 deck?

[Krytha]

Wow, all this kind of shows that I've been out of the loop for a while. I don't really know what most of those cards mentioned do.

And like Krytha said, right now, I'm living in a world where I only have horses, but everyone else has bullet trains, so I'll have to spend some time trying to do some train robbing to find out what's being played.

Do people still generally refuse to play a type 1 deck against a type 2 deck?

It really depends on the group you play with. What my old group did was basically - if you own a card, you can play it. So you would find lightning bolts interspersed with carbonizes. I think you'll find that more casual players won't even know what T1/T2 even means in terms of available cards, but more competitive players will probably only play standard against standard, legacy against legacy - to have a more even playing ground.

If you're looking for specific cards, it's a good idea to just use the gatherer or take a quick look through some spoiler lists. It's fast and doesn't cost you anything.