How do you as a player handle your character becoming listless

[Azoth]

I have noticed it happening to my characters the higher in level they become and the higher the optimization level of my builds. They seem to just lose interest in quests and really interacting with the world as a whole. They become complacent and look at enemies as annoyances more than challenges or obstacles.

BBEGs get lectured about the futility of their efforts and accomplishments. Everything they have done can and will be undone in some capacity or another. So they should just stop being annoying and behave themselves.

As a player I am engaged in the sessions and participate, but it is hard for me to get my characters to actively care about the events going on around them.

"Oh, another doomsday cult?" "What kingdom needs us now?" "Who kidnapped the princess again?" "Dragon? Oh, I have been needing a new lawn sculpture..."

[Temotei]

You control your character and decide what they care about. Just decide that your character isn't bored with the world.

[EndocrineBandit]

I'd have to agree with tem. You're ultimately in control of the character's choices. It's certainly not it's own entity capable of independent thought or possessing free will, past that which you allow it to have. If your character is bored with the world, you need to change your perspective. Maybe not focus on making such optimized characters and becoming jaded to the story?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It sounds like you don't have enough variety or challenge in quests, if you are dealing with "another" doomsday cult. I understand completely that something not mechanically challenging can't be RPed as challenging in-universe. Try playing a longer, more difficult, more complicated quest arc, one that your character can't see the solution to, even halfway through. "Kill the dragon" is--allowing for scaling combat complexity--fundamentally the same at level 5 or 15, unless the DM constructs additional difficulties around said dragon. "Kill the dragon without X, Y, and Z going to hell" is already a lot harder.

tl;dr Ask your DM to turn up the heat.

[Eldariel]

Also, if players always get the initiative, they may feel invulnerable and in control. But in a world teeming with dangerous teleporting dragons, outsiders, etc that doesn't need to be the case.

Players as a part of the world have their allies and enemies and as they get stronger, they increasingly need to watch their back as they draw the attention of increasingly more powerful entities, even deities eventually.


In general, I'd say this is more a problem with the DM and expectations than the character per ce; repetitive, too easy campaigns night not offer the necessary thrill to keep the players engaged depending on their motivation, but things that link them to the world and make them a part of it tend to keep players and thus their characters engaged.

[OttoVonBigby]

Based on my experience, I'd say that when a DM provides quests like "Kill this dragon / Wipe out this cult" (i.e., with clear, finite goals and conclusions), he/she is making it "easy" on the player/character in a sense, and at high levels I could definitely see that getting tiresome. On the other hand, presenting PCs with something more open-ended, in the spirit of "Here is a problem; you have to figure out how to solve it while remaining within the boundaries of acceptable collateral damage" tends to provoke strategizing and caution/paranoia, and is more likely to be engaging. When DMing high-level campaigns, I've even used the latter approach without the slightest clue what the resolution to the problem would actually look like; it just sort of emerged from collective thought & discussion.

So, if I were your DM, I'd consider this. If I were the player, I might consider the "bored" high-level PC just deciding to retire, and rolling up somebody who'd be intrinsically motivated to Adventure 'Til the Very End.

[Hackulator]

Stop optimizing to the point where the game becomes dumb?

[Eldariel]

Stop optimizing to the point where the game becomes dumb?

This is a problem far, FAR below that point. And more on the DM end.

[Ellrin]

As an alternative to the sorts of ideas presented so far, you could actually play with that jaded attitude--use it to create a new perspective. You would need to talk it out with your DM since it could potentially get campaign disrupting depending on how it plays out, but maybe instead of simply responding to threats as they arise, your character has started feeling so powerful and righteous that he's started to actively seek out problems before they arise. If he's an enchanter, maybe he's brainwashing budding conquerors into doing public works, instead; if he's a rogue, maybe he's assassinating necromancer apprentices in their sleep. Either way, he's grown so powerful and so tired of BBEGs, and he's seen so many, that he believes he can identify them before they become a problem for other people and deal with them according to his own ideal of justice, not realizing that he's slowly becoming one himself.

This could play out in several ways, with circumstances (via the DM) forcing him to realize what he's doing is wrong, the other PCs trying to convince him (either via conversation, force, or even some kind of quest), or even, if worse comes to worst, with him abandoning the party and becoming an NPC villain.

[Zanos]

Set your own goals. PCs should be proactive, not reactive, especially at high levels.

[flappeercraft]

I have noticed it happening to my characters the higher in level they become and the higher the optimization level of my builds. They seem to just lose interest in quests and really interacting with the world as a whole. They become complacent and look at enemies as annoyances more than challenges or obstacles.

BBEGs get lectured about the futility of their efforts and accomplishments. Everything they have done can and will be undone in some capacity or another. So they should just stop being annoying and behave themselves.

As a player I am engaged in the sessions and participate, but it is hard for me to get my characters to actively care about the events going on around them.

"Oh, another doomsday cult?" "What kingdom needs us now?" "Who kidnapped the princess again?" "Dragon? Oh, I have been needing a new lawn sculpture..."

This is what I call the Saitama syndrome, the solution is just to start to become more like deadpool, joke around, fool around and piss them off while fighting them. Don't fight seriously.

[Hackulator]

This is a problem far, FAR below that point. And more on the DM end.

No, it's not.

The DM has a million things to create for game, you have ONE thing. If you are a hardcore optimizer, expecting the DM to necessarily have the time to put into optimizing his world to that level is often unreasonable. If you play with DMs who don't want to spend their time optimizing every NPC to challenge your over-optimized character, recognize that and adjust how you make your characters.

Also read the question, he asked what he could do as a player, not how his DM could do better.

[Azoth]

Thank you for the advice given thus far.

I do not expect my DM to optimize every enemy to the point that they can challenge or manhandle my character. BBEGs, are somewhere I would like that to happen, but it is understandable that not everyone has the time, system mastery, or inclination to go to the lengths that I and others do go to.

An example from a recent BBEG. A Lich who worshiped Charon. He was a mastermind behind mobilizing several loosely connected cults to try and start a war between the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. Pretty nasty stuff really.

My character a cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Soul Eater who also follows Charon listens to his monologue. Now this character has the separatist archetype on his Cleric levels and is viewed as a heretic of the faith accordingly. So him and normal Charon worshipers don't generally get along.

Once he is done speaking my character berates him mercilessly on the idiocy of becoming a Lich and the potential play thing of anyone capable of controlling undead. Especially when Contingency, Cyclic Reincarnation is a thing. So you can live a lifetime, die, and then Reincarnate in a hour into a young adult body as opposed to up to a week reanimating Charon knows where.

He then further points out Charon as the Horseman of Death doesn't get to claim souls lost to War, Famine, or Pestilence. So by kick-starting the Apocalypse all he has done is short change his patron and strengthened the other Horsemen accordingly. So he is an idiot, failure as a member of the clergy, and acting at best as a pawn for the other Horsemen.

The final nail of his rant is that to best exemplify Charon, the Lich should be creating corrupted pocket dimensions with a fast time trait. This way he can usher in large numbers of relatively short lived evil creatures that will die of old age and strengthen Charon. An Evil Eden so to speak. That or soul trapping people as often as he can reasonably get away with it and offering them to Thanodaemons to bring to Charon as tribute.

Fight starts, and with appropriate buffs to handle undead it is relatively easy over all. I do my job as force amplifier and the rest of the party mops up. As they are looting the corpse and trying to figure out where the Phylactery is, my character mutters about how such simpletons end up powerful schemers and manipulators around the world. When we find the Phylactery, it gets offered to Charon so he can punish the fool accordingly.

[KillianHawkeye]

I can't say that I have exactly experienced this feeling in-character, so take my advice with that disclaimer in mind.

What I have experienced from time to time is growing bored with a character who isn't challenged by the threats or the story elements in a game. A character who already has all the answers, or one that's simply out-optimized the DM's villainous NPCs. When that happens, it's time to have that character retire, move on to bigger and more important things, and bring in a new one who is more on par with the challenges at hand. Making a new character gives you a chance to start over, especially if it's something genuinely new to you--something you've never tried before--and it gives you the opportunity to experience the game from a fresh perspective of a character who hasn't already been there and done that.

Sometimes a player outgrows their character, and sometimes a character outgrows their adventures. Either way, it's probably time for a new character.

[Eldariel]

No, it's not.

The DM has a million things to create for game, you have ONE thing. If you are a hardcore optimizer, expecting the DM to necessarily have the time to put into optimizing his world to that level is often unreasonable. If you play with DMs who don't want to spend their time optimizing every NPC to challenge your over-optimized character, recognize that and adjust how you make your characters.

Also read the question, he asked what he could do as a player, not how his DM could do better.

I answered as I did because I believe this is a false dilemma. It's not a matter of optimization, it's a matter of player inclusion and threat. If the enemies aren't proactively taking the fight to the PCs every now and then and if the enemies don't use their networks and abilities to pre-emptively deal with the likely rather famous group that's going to stop them, it's not going to be very engaging nor involved. The players are essentially treated as an external force where no game world entities react to them before they do things, which does a great job of making the PCs feel bored regardless of their power level. As long as the players have the luxury of planning ahead and making the first move and just being hired to kill yet another doomsday cult (remainders and leftovers survive and should plot revenge, sell their souls to dark gods for power and things of that nature for things to make any sense unless the PCs somehow decimated every single cult member), they won't be seriously threatened as the cult will be content to just wait for them to come over and be killed, and there'll be no meaningful repercussions.

The solution to this is never player-based - the enemies need to be able to take initiative for even nemeses written into the backstory or such to make an appearance and meaningfully undermine the party/the character. Strategic initiative is the single most important factor behind success in these kinds of campaigns and a campaign without player inclusions inevitably invariably lands the initiative to leave for the Quest Location with an exclamation mark to the party. Thus it's not power that leads to ease and complacency, it's the very nature of the campaign.

[Hackulator]

The final nail of his rant is that to best exemplify Charon, the Lich should be creating corrupted pocket dimensions with a fast time trait. This way he can usher in large numbers of relatively short lived evil creatures that will die of old age and strengthen Charon. An Evil Eden so to speak. That or soul trapping people as often as he can reasonably get away with it and offering them to Thanodaemons to bring to Charon as tribute.

Fight starts, and with appropriate buffs to handle undead it is relatively easy over all. I do my job as force amplifier and the rest of the party mops up. As they are looting the corpse and trying to figure out where the Phylactery is, my character mutters about how such simpletons end up powerful schemers and manipulators around the world. When we find the Phylactery, it gets offered to Charon so he can punish the fool accordingly.

Honestly, what this makes it sound like to me is that you have better system mastery than your DM and you are being kind of a tool about it.

[AnimeTheCat]

Honestly, what this makes it sound like to me is that you have better system mastery than your DM and you are being kind of a tool about it.

I don't think it's warranted to call someone a tool in this situation, especially since we in fact know very little about the circumstances.

I feel like it may be time to retire this character. It sounds like your character has the knowledge and ability to serve Charon the best out of all his subjects. Become the scion of your patron and weed out those who are unfit to serve. Have that be your mission. If you end up feeling motivated again, great! Don't retire your character. If everything still feels trivial, have this character make that his or her goal and fade them out of the party, introducing someone new.

Your character is what you make it. If you don't go after something you can't expect the DM to hand you your characters mind on a silver platter. It's your character, do what you want.

[Hackulator]

I don't think it's warranted to call someone a tool in this situation, especially since we in fact know very little about the circumstances.

Sorry, but passive-aggressively muttering in-character about how stupid your DM's BBEG NPC was easily breaks the threshold for being a tool in my book.

[Azoth]

Honestly, what this makes it sound like to me is that you have better system mastery than your DM and you are being kind of a tool about it.

My DM is aware of those tricks, and several other high op tricks. While I do spend more time optimizing than he does, he does know most of the common high op methods to get things done. Also, any new tricks/ideas that I personally come up with are discussed with him in detail before they are used.

A frustrating previous enemy that he used was reminiscent of Schrödinger. 100% real shadow illusions and the ability to maintain two illusions simultaneously while casting a third spell. That one also made a habit of possessing Simulacrum of itself when it wanted to attack/annoy us.

Not something handled all too easily unless you know the tricks that he is using. It took a considerable amount of effort IC to finally stop that guy and his plans.

[Hackulator]

My DM is aware of those tricks, and several other high op tricks. While I do spend more time optimizing than he does, he does know most of the common high op methods to get things done. Also, any new tricks/ideas that I personally come up with are discussed with him in detail before they are used.

A frustrating previous enemy that he used was reminiscent of Schrödinger. 100% real shadow illusions and the ability to maintain two illusions simultaneously while casting a third spell. That one also made a habit of possessing Simulacrum of itself when it wanted to attack/annoy us.

Not something handled all too easily unless you know the tricks that he is using. It took a considerable amount of effort IC to finally stop that guy and his plans.

The point is that when you sit there berating the enemy about how he didn't mechanically optimize his plan properly and then mutter about how stupid and easy he was to defeat after, you are pretty much just saying those things to the DM.

[Azoth]

The point is that when you sit there berating the enemy about how he didn't mechanically optimize his plan properly and then mutter about how stupid and easy he was to defeat after, you are pretty much just saying those things to the DM.

So characters are not allowed to openly voice frustration or disagreement with NPCs because that insults the DM?

That level of insult given to the NPC would be like a Cleric of Palor and a Cleric of Palor the Burning Hate getting into a fight to the death. Do you honestly expect the winning side not to insult or infer the other side's beliefs were wrong? Or does the winner just shake the corpse's hand and say, "Valiant effort! I see why you did what you did, and had I not stopped you it would have been a brilliant plan! Good showing old boy!"

[Pex]

thank you for the advice given thus far.

I do not expect my dm to optimize every enemy to the point that they can challenge or manhandle my character. Bbegs, are somewhere i would like that to happen, but it is understandable that not everyone has the time, system mastery, or inclination to go to the lengths that i and others do go to.

An example from a recent bbeg. A lich who worshiped charon. He was a mastermind behind mobilizing several loosely connected cults to try and start a war between the four horseman of the apocalypse. Pretty nasty stuff really.

My character a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge/soul eater who also follows charon listens to his monologue. Now this character has the separatist archetype on his cleric levels and is viewed as a heretic of the faith accordingly. So him and normal charon worshipers don't generally get along.

Once he is done speaking my character berates him mercilessly on the idiocy of becoming a lich and the potential play thing of anyone capable of controlling undead. Especially when contingency, cyclic reincarnation is a thing. So you can live a lifetime, die, and then reincarnate in a hour into a young adult body as opposed to up to a week reanimating charon knows where.

He then further points out charon as the horseman of death doesn't get to claim souls lost to war, famine, or pestilence. So by kick-starting the apocalypse all he has done is short change his patron and strengthened the other horsemen accordingly. So he is an idiot, failure as a member of the clergy, and acting at best as a pawn for the other horsemen.

The final nail of his rant is that to best exemplify charon, the lich should be creating corrupted pocket dimensions with a fast time trait. This way he can usher in large numbers of relatively short lived evil creatures that will die of old age and strengthen charon. An evil eden so to speak. That or soul trapping people as often as he can reasonably get away with it and offering them to thanodaemons to bring to charon as tribute.

Fight starts, and with appropriate buffs to handle undead it is relatively easy over all. I do my job as force amplifier and the rest of the party mops up. As they are looting the corpse and trying to figure out where the phylactery is, my character mutters about how such simpletons end up powerful schemers and manipulators around the world. When we find the phylactery, it gets offered to charon so he can punish the fool accordingly.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Hackulator]

So characters are not allowed to openly voice frustration or disagreement with NPCs because that insults the DM?

That level of insult given to the NPC would be like a Cleric of Palor and a Cleric of Palor the Burning Hate getting into a fight to the death. Do you honestly expect the winning side not to insult or infer the other side's beliefs were wrong? Or does the winner just shake the corpse's hand and say, "Valiant effort! I see why you did what you did, and had I not stopped you it would have been a brilliant plan! Good showing old boy!"

That might be the worst analogy ever. One is about insulting a character because of their in-game fluff belief systems which conflict with yours, which is of course fine. What you did was basically break down your DMs mechanical decisions and call them stupid, and then you doubled down on it afterwards. Maybe if that was a one time thing I could understand it as your character just being an annoying pedant, but you clearly implied in your original post this is an ongoing issue across multiple characters.

[Kesnit]

Thank you for the advice given thus far.

I do not expect my DM to optimize every enemy to the point that they can challenge or manhandle my character. BBEGs, are somewhere I would like that to happen, but it is understandable that not everyone has the time, system mastery, or inclination to go to the lengths that I and others do go to.

An example from a recent BBEG. A Lich who worshiped Charon. He was a mastermind behind mobilizing several loosely connected cults to try and start a war between the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. Pretty nasty stuff really.

My character a cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Soul Eater who also follows Charon listens to his monologue. Now this character has the separatist archetype on his Cleric levels and is viewed as a heretic of the faith accordingly. So him and normal Charon worshipers don't generally get along.

Once he is done speaking my character berates him mercilessly on the idiocy of becoming a Lich and the potential play thing of anyone capable of controlling undead. Especially when Contingency, Cyclic Reincarnation is a thing. So you can live a lifetime, die, and then Reincarnate in a hour into a young adult body as opposed to up to a week reanimating Charon knows where.

He then further points out Charon as the Horseman of Death doesn't get to claim souls lost to War, Famine, or Pestilence. So by kick-starting the Apocalypse all he has done is short change his patron and strengthened the other Horsemen accordingly. So he is an idiot, failure as a member of the clergy, and acting at best as a pawn for the other Horsemen.

The final nail of his rant is that to best exemplify Charon, the Lich should be creating corrupted pocket dimensions with a fast time trait. This way he can usher in large numbers of relatively short lived evil creatures that will die of old age and strengthen Charon. An Evil Eden so to speak. That or soul trapping people as often as he can reasonably get away with it and offering them to Thanodaemons to bring to Charon as tribute.

Fight starts, and with appropriate buffs to handle undead it is relatively easy over all. I do my job as force amplifier and the rest of the party mops up. As they are looting the corpse and trying to figure out where the Phylactery is, my character mutters about how such simpletons end up powerful schemers and manipulators around the world. When we find the Phylactery, it gets offered to Charon so he can punish the fool accordingly.

Why did your DM let your PC get through his monologue? A few quickened spells during your speech and that would have been the end of that.

[Kantaki]

Why did your DM let your PC get through his monologue? A few quickened spells during your speech and that would have been the end of that.

Basic courtesy?
The players let the villain have their talky time and the DM does the same for the PCs?
Besides, talking is a free action.:smalltongue:

[Azoth]

Why did your DM let your PC get through his monologue? A few quickened spells during your speech and that would have been the end of that.

No clue, my guess is that Evil is polite. I listened to his, so he listened to mine.


That might be the worst analogy ever. One is about insulting a character because of their in-game fluff belief systems which conflict with yours, which is of course fine. What you did was basically break down your DMs mechanical decisions and call them stupid, and then you doubled down on it afterwards. Maybe if that was a one time thing I could understand it as your character just being an annoying pedant, but you clearly implied in your original post this is an ongoing issue across multiple characters.

It is an appropriate analogy. Did you miss where he was a servant of Charon, and my character is also a servant of Charon using an archetype that makes him be viewed as a heretic and false servant? The two of them have very different views of what Charon wants and how he wants it.

While I did use mechanical terms in my rant it can easily be said without the mechanics. Replace "Contingent Cyclic Reincarnation" with "you can be reincarnated as many times as you desire and there are ways to gain that power without aid of another" and "Fast Time trait demiplanes" with "planes with an accelerated rate of time to shorten their lifespans".

Also, by this level making the necessary knowledge checks to know that killing a Horseman changes nothing should be fairly easy. There are always Four Horseman. If you kill one the multi verse itself promotes one of their personal Harbinger Daemons to Horseman status and grants them the powers of their title. So a war among Horseman ranging through Abadon, the Abyss, Hell, the Astral Plane, and the Prime Material Plane carries no real benefit to Charon. It actually puts him at risk to be dethroned as a Horseman should he be killed in the ensuing war.

Further, all out war benefits Szuriel the Horseman of War above all the others. Seeing as in a war like that, most of the souls of the dead would go to him.

Now, onto your second point. Yes, several of my characters are listless, bored, jaded, choose your term. They do not all see fit to openly insult their foes. Point out that they won't win? Yes. Try to reverse the effects said enemy has had on the world? Yes. Wonder why they are the ones that have to get drug into another battle with entities dead set on trying to upset the world around them in selfish ways? Most definitely.

I mainly started this as a way to get my brain working on ways to unjade the jaded, and motivate the listless. Get them to care about the helpless huddled masses they are protecting aside "It's my job/duty/ect." "No one else is going to so I have to." "Well living is better than none existence, and I guess I like the prime more than my personal demiplane" Aside the obvious, "You control them so say they care and have them act like it." To me that isn't any different than all of us who hate our jobs and put on a fake smile to go through the motions one more time.

[barakaka]

If you make sure your DM is cool and understands you're not personally attacking him, then yeah, I mean you've seen enough liches and catastrophes man. You'd know.

On the DM end, here's a link to make it easy for him (not to say he needs it, but I love it cause I'm lazy):
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454210-Thread-from-the-Wizard-Forums-Guide-to-Alternate-Goals-in-Combat

On the player end:

Adopt some villainous traits, like spending your turn in monologue
Get addicted to katakuda or something. Now your adventures will pay for your expensive habit. You could even die from it and get a whole new outlook on life when you're rez'd
As above, be proactive. You won't live forever, so make defenses that can stop threats to the cosmos without you

Spoilers kinda for The Night Angel Trilogy of books:
You've clearly read up on The Night Angel trilogy :smallwink:, so you know all about retiring for the girl and getting that itch to come back into the fray.