Chugger
2017-08-05, 03:48 AM
I have searched various versions of "dnd 5e arcane trickster guide" and have come up with some a.t. question threads and sparse build threads - but not a full on guide dedicated just to a.t. A.T. is covered okay in one of the full rogue guides here in gitp, but unless I'm blind or something I'm not seeing an actual (dedicated) a.t. guide here. If someone can link me to a good a.t. guide, that would be awesome, thanks.
(edit - I found on this guide that they say that GFB and BB do cause sneak attack to happen - you can skip the next paragraph (unless you think these cantrips don't cause sneak attack to happen!) - also this guide goes into arcane trickster very well, now that I've studied it more - it's pretty good for a.t. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474974-A-Thousand-Lies-and-a-Good-Disguise-A-Rogue-Guide)
If not, I want to make sure I understand some things about going a.t. Let's say I've played up an a.t. to level 5 and I do a surprise attack with Green Flame Blade and rapier. This is a spell - so does it trigger sneak attack? I think it does - the phb says some spells are weapons - so I would think a GFB attack would actually be a sneak and allow the extra damage - but does it? The Rogue section says a sneak attack is an "attack" where I have either surprise or an ally w/in 5' of the target. I'm thinking it should work because it doesn't specify an "Attack action" or a weapon-without-spell or anything like that - it just says plain old attack. And a GFB is - it would seem - an "attack". The Sneak Attack rule seems concerned only with is the rogue surprising or 5' from an ally. (and using a finesse or range weapon, which I'm doing - rapier)
So that would be 1d8 (rapier) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 4 dex bonus + 1d8 (gfb) to the main target, and 1d8 plus int mod to a second target w/in 5', right? If all hit that would average 23.5 on the main target and 8.5 on a secondary (if int is 18) for 32 total average damage, right?
If that works, is that the best main hand attack please?
If a cantrip like GFB or BB doesn't allow me to apply sneak attack damage, then I'm looking at 2d8 + 4 and maybe 1d8 + int bonus on a secondary target - 13 average damage or 21.5 total if secondary is hit (and int is 18) - which is a lot less. Or if I just stab, 1d8 plus 4 plus 3d6 or 19 damage to one target. Is there anything better?
(edit, I'd still like to know if GFB or BB triggers this feature of War Cleric discussed in the paragraph below, but I just realized you can't sneak attack twice in your turn - meaning a dip in War Cleric doesn't mean the potential burst damage I thought it did - some sort of reaction attack is the only way to double sneak attack in a round - you might find the issue brought up in the below paragraph interesting, though)
Now, let's suppose I'm a.t. lvl 5 but have also dipped once in War Cleric. War cleric says if I use the "Attack action" I can make one weapon attack as a bonus action. If doing Green Flame Blade is casting a spell for my action and not an "Attack action", I guess I couldn't follow up with the War Cleric feature. But doing Green Flame Blade requires me to make a melee attack with a weapon, and if I've made a melee attack with a weapon I've arguably done both for my action - cast a spell and taken an Attack action - I've satisfied the requirements of both. Is there any official ruling on this that anyone knows about, or am I (again) missing something in the phb please? (iirc it says in Attack action that it just has to be an attack like using a sword or shooting an arrow - it doesn't disallow expressly an attack that includes or is included in a spell - while one could argue gfb is a spell action - it incluses using a melee attack and clearly satisfies the conditions of a Attack action - and there is nothing I can find saying an attack can't be both or that if an attack qualifies as a spell it therefore can't be an Attack action - so I am confused).
(and yes I realize an a.t. typically won't have the 13 wis for the dip, but let's pretend the one we're discussing has 14 wis for now and would get 2 uses of it per long rest and is at least considering it)
Okay, whether or not my a.t. can use the War Cleric bonus action attack, it's only twice per long rest (w/ wis 14) and something I'll be saving for "boss fights", so I'm thinking about what else to do with my bonus actions in normal fights. I'm realizing that a cunning action is going to be a smart thing to do in many cases - like disengage and move to cover - or hide. Or use the mage hand to steal something off my enemy! Or tickle him - which won't actually help me til later on, but for role playing.
But if I feel comfortable staying in combat and attempting to use my bonus action to make another attack, I'm wondering what my best options are. I can't find a wiz bonus action spell to cast (clerics get healing word and spiritual weapon, which is a possibility if I want a 3 lvl dip in war cleric - but for now no). If I want to hit with a second weapon, I need to use a pair of short swords (light weapons) unless I go HuV and take the feat, right? I'd get +1 ac off the feat and could use 2 rapiers - and the other feature seems so far a thing DMs don't enforce anyway.
Or I could use a hand xbow, which I could shoot once because I don't have a hand free to reload it. I need the feat Crossbow Expertise to avoid the issue with reloading multiple times in a round (like a fighter with 2 attacks would need it to shoot an xbow twice) and to avoid the close range disad - but as long as I'm not worried about reloading the thing, I can fire it once (and just not use it any more that fight or eat up a round reloading it). Is my assessment of the hand xbow in off-hand right please - or do I actually need the crossbow expertise feat to fire a hand xbow as a bonus action in the first place? Also, (if I can use the hand xbow off-handed - if I have to let's say for a moment I take the feat) could I enter combat with a loaded hand xbow in my off hand - and another loaded one in a holder on my hip or belt - shoot the hand xbow in round one and drop it with a free action - then in round two draw and shoot the loaded hand xbow from my belt or holster in my bonus action?
And is that worth pursuing? I'd have a secondary attack ready if I miss with my primary attack and so might get my sneak attack damage in (or I could take the duel wielder feat to get +1 ac and have a second rapier ready for the same purpose). And a little more damage. Or, if I'm worried about missing with my main hand I could take the Lucky Feat and have 3 chances to fix misses. Any thoughts on which is the better path? Sure, if I felt strongly about role-playing, say, a rogue using a rapier hand xbow combo for some reason - but for right now I just want to understand the consequences of these choices. And are there better paths.
Yes, I haven't even brought up spells yet (except gfb/bb).
Minor Illusion/Silent image. Potentially great, but so far playing some AL games, I've yet to see one DM deal with an illusion even remotely fairly. DMs (going back to ad&d) hate illusions in general - players abuse them - but just making a box to hide in - they either go "well, you have to disbelieve it to see through it" - "So I put little holes in it to see out" - "then they can see you" - "they're 30 feet away and there's a little hold or a slit in a crate illusion - how?" And it's kind of like I get the "I'm just going to outlast you on this until the other players get mad that you're eating up so much time I win, see?" response, which is chickensh*t to the max, but whatever. I've also seen other players try to hide in an illusion box - and after shooting out of it the DM has a monster accurately shoot right back on that round. The player asks how? "It can see you - you shot out." But that's not how the spell works. "Yes it is." The player gives up, sighs - then minutes later the DM - who knows he's lied to the player - covers his *$$ by saying "it made its wisdom roll" - but I was watching and the DM rolled no dice for it and furthermore, disbelieving an illusion eats up a turn as per phb, if I understand it correctly. But ... the DM didn't want him to gain anything from having used a turn to create that box illusion - so that was that. Also if I try using minor illusion to have the captain's voice shout "no men, this way!" or something, I have to pass a performance roll or a deception roll -and my ch will stink - so... bleh....
The upshot is that I'd love to have illusions but they will only ever work if cast between combats as a joke. Then they'll somehow work. They will never work in combat because DMs and decades of bad illusion-vibes-player-abuse and so on. If someone has advice on this, I'd appreciate it. But it really is a DM problem.
Okay, do I take Find Familiar or Shield or some other for my non illusion/ench lvl 1 spell? I love the idea of a little owl (with flyby feature - no AOO) helping me in combat to get advantage, but the DM will kill it. Which means he wasted a round. But it's a pain. Shield is very useful in many situations, especially until I get the dodge - except wait I get uncanny dodge at lvl 5 ... making shield not quite as useful.
Any thoughts on what to take for the non illu/ench spell please? This is discussed on at least one of the guides here in gitp at least to a reasonable extent - and it's good stuff. But if someone has some deeper insight, please tell me.
What about using Sleep to finish off a hurt monster? I notice sleep - which on average knocks out 22.5 hp of monster - it affects "current" hit points. Has anyone tried using it on a hill giant that's hurt just to end the fight and keep it from hurting someone? Is this even a thing? Or a very rare situational thing (cuz most of the time the hurt giant can just be finished off). Anyone have any success/experience doing this please? If you can tell me if you feel it was worth doing or not, that would be great.
My third cantrip - well, I'm going with Mage Hand and GFB probably. Do I do GFB and BB? I can see BB being useful. I BB a monster with no range attack and use a cunning action to disengage and step back x feet. As long as I've stepped out of its reach it must pursue and trigger the bb. I won't always have tightly grouped targets (for gfb). But then I'd get no Light (I may be huv - and yes I know, sneak problems, but not if the mage hand holds the spike I cast the Light on) - no minor illusion (which will never work in combat anyway because DMs) - no message (which is only sometimes useful) - no cold ray or w/e (I'll be using a ranged weapon and not damage cantrips of course, if I have to do a ranged attack). Any thoughts on this please?
Finally on sneaking. I've seen the guide here, and it's pretty good - but my experience w/ AL DMs again has been a certain wariness toward sneaking. Like a group sneak check, sure - you pass - the town guards don't find you. Easy. But if a rogue wants to attack from surprise: "You moved; he sees you." "But I'm stealthed; I rolled a 19." "You _were_ stealthed as long as you remained still there behind the stump. But when you moved it saw you." "But I only moved fifteen feet." "It saw you." But the DM didn't roll - and a roll had been made that the rogue was stealthed so ... okay if I'm stealthed at a doorway and a monster comes through, that's a surprise/sneak attack with adv. Sure. But I'm seeing a whole lot of "if the rogue moves there is no stealth, not even a passive stealth check". Now, are the DMs being thuggish/lazy or something? Or ... what? Any thoughts not so much on the raw phb nature of stealth - but converting a stealthed position into a sneak attack with surprise and advantage, please? Maybe I'm missing the place in the phb that spells it out, but I don't know - I've scanned it back and forth. I've yet to find where or if it covers the specific mechanic of how a rogue who stealths then moves stealthily - and I'll go check yet again. (obviously this isn't like WoW where you stealth and "become invisible" til you attack - but if you dart out of the shadows at a monster that has no idea you were there, I can see it at least being a roll as to whether or not it's surprised - but again "backstabbing" was almost universally not allowed in AD&D because rogues were trying everything they could to get it - and sometimes being abusive - and DMs over the years seem to have a bad vibe on the whole concept. But if I have rules to fight them with (diplomatically of course) ... and the will ... and a table of nice tolerant players. Anyway, any help on this would be great.
Well, that's a ton of stuff - I'll stop here (I have other questions, but I'm exhausted and forgetting them :smallbiggrin:). Thank you if you've made it this far - and any advice will be greatly appreciated.
(edit - I found on this guide that they say that GFB and BB do cause sneak attack to happen - you can skip the next paragraph (unless you think these cantrips don't cause sneak attack to happen!) - also this guide goes into arcane trickster very well, now that I've studied it more - it's pretty good for a.t. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474974-A-Thousand-Lies-and-a-Good-Disguise-A-Rogue-Guide)
If not, I want to make sure I understand some things about going a.t. Let's say I've played up an a.t. to level 5 and I do a surprise attack with Green Flame Blade and rapier. This is a spell - so does it trigger sneak attack? I think it does - the phb says some spells are weapons - so I would think a GFB attack would actually be a sneak and allow the extra damage - but does it? The Rogue section says a sneak attack is an "attack" where I have either surprise or an ally w/in 5' of the target. I'm thinking it should work because it doesn't specify an "Attack action" or a weapon-without-spell or anything like that - it just says plain old attack. And a GFB is - it would seem - an "attack". The Sneak Attack rule seems concerned only with is the rogue surprising or 5' from an ally. (and using a finesse or range weapon, which I'm doing - rapier)
So that would be 1d8 (rapier) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 4 dex bonus + 1d8 (gfb) to the main target, and 1d8 plus int mod to a second target w/in 5', right? If all hit that would average 23.5 on the main target and 8.5 on a secondary (if int is 18) for 32 total average damage, right?
If that works, is that the best main hand attack please?
If a cantrip like GFB or BB doesn't allow me to apply sneak attack damage, then I'm looking at 2d8 + 4 and maybe 1d8 + int bonus on a secondary target - 13 average damage or 21.5 total if secondary is hit (and int is 18) - which is a lot less. Or if I just stab, 1d8 plus 4 plus 3d6 or 19 damage to one target. Is there anything better?
(edit, I'd still like to know if GFB or BB triggers this feature of War Cleric discussed in the paragraph below, but I just realized you can't sneak attack twice in your turn - meaning a dip in War Cleric doesn't mean the potential burst damage I thought it did - some sort of reaction attack is the only way to double sneak attack in a round - you might find the issue brought up in the below paragraph interesting, though)
Now, let's suppose I'm a.t. lvl 5 but have also dipped once in War Cleric. War cleric says if I use the "Attack action" I can make one weapon attack as a bonus action. If doing Green Flame Blade is casting a spell for my action and not an "Attack action", I guess I couldn't follow up with the War Cleric feature. But doing Green Flame Blade requires me to make a melee attack with a weapon, and if I've made a melee attack with a weapon I've arguably done both for my action - cast a spell and taken an Attack action - I've satisfied the requirements of both. Is there any official ruling on this that anyone knows about, or am I (again) missing something in the phb please? (iirc it says in Attack action that it just has to be an attack like using a sword or shooting an arrow - it doesn't disallow expressly an attack that includes or is included in a spell - while one could argue gfb is a spell action - it incluses using a melee attack and clearly satisfies the conditions of a Attack action - and there is nothing I can find saying an attack can't be both or that if an attack qualifies as a spell it therefore can't be an Attack action - so I am confused).
(and yes I realize an a.t. typically won't have the 13 wis for the dip, but let's pretend the one we're discussing has 14 wis for now and would get 2 uses of it per long rest and is at least considering it)
Okay, whether or not my a.t. can use the War Cleric bonus action attack, it's only twice per long rest (w/ wis 14) and something I'll be saving for "boss fights", so I'm thinking about what else to do with my bonus actions in normal fights. I'm realizing that a cunning action is going to be a smart thing to do in many cases - like disengage and move to cover - or hide. Or use the mage hand to steal something off my enemy! Or tickle him - which won't actually help me til later on, but for role playing.
But if I feel comfortable staying in combat and attempting to use my bonus action to make another attack, I'm wondering what my best options are. I can't find a wiz bonus action spell to cast (clerics get healing word and spiritual weapon, which is a possibility if I want a 3 lvl dip in war cleric - but for now no). If I want to hit with a second weapon, I need to use a pair of short swords (light weapons) unless I go HuV and take the feat, right? I'd get +1 ac off the feat and could use 2 rapiers - and the other feature seems so far a thing DMs don't enforce anyway.
Or I could use a hand xbow, which I could shoot once because I don't have a hand free to reload it. I need the feat Crossbow Expertise to avoid the issue with reloading multiple times in a round (like a fighter with 2 attacks would need it to shoot an xbow twice) and to avoid the close range disad - but as long as I'm not worried about reloading the thing, I can fire it once (and just not use it any more that fight or eat up a round reloading it). Is my assessment of the hand xbow in off-hand right please - or do I actually need the crossbow expertise feat to fire a hand xbow as a bonus action in the first place? Also, (if I can use the hand xbow off-handed - if I have to let's say for a moment I take the feat) could I enter combat with a loaded hand xbow in my off hand - and another loaded one in a holder on my hip or belt - shoot the hand xbow in round one and drop it with a free action - then in round two draw and shoot the loaded hand xbow from my belt or holster in my bonus action?
And is that worth pursuing? I'd have a secondary attack ready if I miss with my primary attack and so might get my sneak attack damage in (or I could take the duel wielder feat to get +1 ac and have a second rapier ready for the same purpose). And a little more damage. Or, if I'm worried about missing with my main hand I could take the Lucky Feat and have 3 chances to fix misses. Any thoughts on which is the better path? Sure, if I felt strongly about role-playing, say, a rogue using a rapier hand xbow combo for some reason - but for right now I just want to understand the consequences of these choices. And are there better paths.
Yes, I haven't even brought up spells yet (except gfb/bb).
Minor Illusion/Silent image. Potentially great, but so far playing some AL games, I've yet to see one DM deal with an illusion even remotely fairly. DMs (going back to ad&d) hate illusions in general - players abuse them - but just making a box to hide in - they either go "well, you have to disbelieve it to see through it" - "So I put little holes in it to see out" - "then they can see you" - "they're 30 feet away and there's a little hold or a slit in a crate illusion - how?" And it's kind of like I get the "I'm just going to outlast you on this until the other players get mad that you're eating up so much time I win, see?" response, which is chickensh*t to the max, but whatever. I've also seen other players try to hide in an illusion box - and after shooting out of it the DM has a monster accurately shoot right back on that round. The player asks how? "It can see you - you shot out." But that's not how the spell works. "Yes it is." The player gives up, sighs - then minutes later the DM - who knows he's lied to the player - covers his *$$ by saying "it made its wisdom roll" - but I was watching and the DM rolled no dice for it and furthermore, disbelieving an illusion eats up a turn as per phb, if I understand it correctly. But ... the DM didn't want him to gain anything from having used a turn to create that box illusion - so that was that. Also if I try using minor illusion to have the captain's voice shout "no men, this way!" or something, I have to pass a performance roll or a deception roll -and my ch will stink - so... bleh....
The upshot is that I'd love to have illusions but they will only ever work if cast between combats as a joke. Then they'll somehow work. They will never work in combat because DMs and decades of bad illusion-vibes-player-abuse and so on. If someone has advice on this, I'd appreciate it. But it really is a DM problem.
Okay, do I take Find Familiar or Shield or some other for my non illusion/ench lvl 1 spell? I love the idea of a little owl (with flyby feature - no AOO) helping me in combat to get advantage, but the DM will kill it. Which means he wasted a round. But it's a pain. Shield is very useful in many situations, especially until I get the dodge - except wait I get uncanny dodge at lvl 5 ... making shield not quite as useful.
Any thoughts on what to take for the non illu/ench spell please? This is discussed on at least one of the guides here in gitp at least to a reasonable extent - and it's good stuff. But if someone has some deeper insight, please tell me.
What about using Sleep to finish off a hurt monster? I notice sleep - which on average knocks out 22.5 hp of monster - it affects "current" hit points. Has anyone tried using it on a hill giant that's hurt just to end the fight and keep it from hurting someone? Is this even a thing? Or a very rare situational thing (cuz most of the time the hurt giant can just be finished off). Anyone have any success/experience doing this please? If you can tell me if you feel it was worth doing or not, that would be great.
My third cantrip - well, I'm going with Mage Hand and GFB probably. Do I do GFB and BB? I can see BB being useful. I BB a monster with no range attack and use a cunning action to disengage and step back x feet. As long as I've stepped out of its reach it must pursue and trigger the bb. I won't always have tightly grouped targets (for gfb). But then I'd get no Light (I may be huv - and yes I know, sneak problems, but not if the mage hand holds the spike I cast the Light on) - no minor illusion (which will never work in combat anyway because DMs) - no message (which is only sometimes useful) - no cold ray or w/e (I'll be using a ranged weapon and not damage cantrips of course, if I have to do a ranged attack). Any thoughts on this please?
Finally on sneaking. I've seen the guide here, and it's pretty good - but my experience w/ AL DMs again has been a certain wariness toward sneaking. Like a group sneak check, sure - you pass - the town guards don't find you. Easy. But if a rogue wants to attack from surprise: "You moved; he sees you." "But I'm stealthed; I rolled a 19." "You _were_ stealthed as long as you remained still there behind the stump. But when you moved it saw you." "But I only moved fifteen feet." "It saw you." But the DM didn't roll - and a roll had been made that the rogue was stealthed so ... okay if I'm stealthed at a doorway and a monster comes through, that's a surprise/sneak attack with adv. Sure. But I'm seeing a whole lot of "if the rogue moves there is no stealth, not even a passive stealth check". Now, are the DMs being thuggish/lazy or something? Or ... what? Any thoughts not so much on the raw phb nature of stealth - but converting a stealthed position into a sneak attack with surprise and advantage, please? Maybe I'm missing the place in the phb that spells it out, but I don't know - I've scanned it back and forth. I've yet to find where or if it covers the specific mechanic of how a rogue who stealths then moves stealthily - and I'll go check yet again. (obviously this isn't like WoW where you stealth and "become invisible" til you attack - but if you dart out of the shadows at a monster that has no idea you were there, I can see it at least being a roll as to whether or not it's surprised - but again "backstabbing" was almost universally not allowed in AD&D because rogues were trying everything they could to get it - and sometimes being abusive - and DMs over the years seem to have a bad vibe on the whole concept. But if I have rules to fight them with (diplomatically of course) ... and the will ... and a table of nice tolerant players. Anyway, any help on this would be great.
Well, that's a ton of stuff - I'll stop here (I have other questions, but I'm exhausted and forgetting them :smallbiggrin:). Thank you if you've made it this far - and any advice will be greatly appreciated.