What happens if an incorporeal creature casts AMF?

[Hackulator]

AMF is an emanation centered on you. An incorporeal creature winks out of existence in an AMF and then returns when the AMF disappears.

So if an incorporeal creature casts AMF, he winks out of existence. But since the area was centered on him, now the AMF is gone, right? But if its gone he comes back. But then does the AMF come back, making him disappear again?

[Psyren]

Isn't it just incorporeal undead?

[Necroticplague]

AMF is an emanation centered on you. An incorporeal creature winks out of existence in an AMF and then returns when the AMF disappears. Minor nitpick: Incorporeal undead wink out.


So if an incorporeal creature casts AMF, he winks out of existence. But since the area was centered on him, now the AMF is gone, right? But if its gone he comes back. But then does the AMF come back, making him disappear again?

This logic isn't self-consistent. In order for him to come back once the field's gone, his location must be constant, regardless of whether he's winked out or not. If her location is a certain point regardless of them being winked out or not, then there's no reason for hir AMF to disappear when they do.

[Hackulator]

Minor nitpick: Incorporeal undead wink out.



This logic isn't self-consistent. In order for him to come back once the field's gone, his location must be constant, regardless of whether he's winked out or not. If her location is a certain point regardless of them being winked out or not, then there's no reason for hir AMF to disappear when they do.


Isn't it just incorporeal undead?

Actually no, read the rules compendium, it clarifies that ALL incorporeal creatures wink out of existence in an AMF.

As for the other point, your AMF is an emanation from you. If you no longer exist at all, then there cannot be an emanation from you. You're not invisible, you don't go to another plane, you simply disappear. The fact that you reappear in the same place as you disappeared means nothing here.

[ijon]

you know video games with a limited palette, where they simulate translucency by only rendering the thing every other frame? that kinda-shimmery effect?

it's kinda like that

[Hackulator]

you know video games with a limited palette, where they simulate translucency by only rendering the thing every other frame? that kinda-shimmery effect?

it's kinda like that

EPIC BLINK!

Yeah honestly that was exactly the image I had in my head as well lol.

[Psyren]

Actually no, read the rules compendium, it clarifies that ALL incorporeal creatures wink out of existence in an AMF.

Okay.


As for the other point, your AMF is an emanation from you. If you no longer exist at all, then there cannot be an emanation from you. You're not invisible, you don't go to another plane, you simply disappear. The fact that you reappear in the same place as you disappeared means nothing here.

Do you really no longer exist? Is "wink out" defined anywhere?

[Hackulator]

Okay.



Do you really no longer exist? Is "wink out" defined anywhere?

Not that I know of, which is part of the problem.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Eh. You could be disingenuous and say "wink out" is undefined, but going by standard English, it's a pretty clear "does not exist". As such, I think the answer is "divide by zero" and houserule. Append to the dysfunction thread.

As for what the more reasonable houserule would be... I'd say the incorporeal creature remains winked out, and the antimagic field remains in effect. That's more interesting than simply making the spell fail.

[Psyren]

Eh. You could be disingenuous and say "wink out" is undefined, but going by standard English, it's a pretty clear "does not exist".

No, it's not clear at all. For example, summons wink out too, but their durations keep counting down. So you could argue that they do still exist in some capacity.

[Hackulator]

No, it's not clear at all. For example, summons wink out too, but their durations keep counting down. So you could argue that they do still exist in some capacity.

I think that's more just about consistency with other spells and AMF.

[Necroticplague]

Actually no, read the rules compendium, it clarifies that ALL incorporeal creatures wink out of existence in an AMF.

As for the other point, your AMF is an emanation from you. If you no longer exist at all, then there cannot be an emanation from you. You're not invisible, you don't go to another plane, you simply disappear. The fact that you reappear in the same place as you disappeared means nothing here.

What makes you think the bolded is true?

[flappeercraft]

What makes you think the bolded is true?

How can it be centered on you if there is no you to center on?

[Hackulator]

What makes you think the bolded is true?

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or you don't know what those words mean.

[Necroticplague]

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or you don't know what those words mean.

I see nothing impossible with the idea of something emnating from something that doesn't exist.

Even when winked out, you still exist in some sense (otherwise "your last location" would have no meaning, since you wouldn't exist to have a last location).

[Hackulator]

I see nothing impossible with the idea of something emnating from something that doesn't exist.

Even when winked out, you still exist in some sense (otherwise "your last location" would have no meaning, since you wouldn't exist to have a last location).

An emanation has a source, by definition. No source, no emanation. The fact that there is a defined spot where you will return to existence changes nothing. You certainly can have a last location if you ceased to exist, something ceasing to exist (in a world with magic where ceasing to exist is possible) does not change the fact that there is a past where you existed.

Even if you want to argue with that, you have already moved the goalposts by first questioning my statement "If you no longer exist at all, then there cannot be an emanation from you" and then claiming that the thing we are talking about "still exists in some sense".

[Psyren]

I think that's more just about consistency with other spells and AMF.

And that's fine for you to think that way, but it's open for interpretation. Each GM will have to think about what it means.

I get the feeling you don't actually want people to rule it differently than you are, but instead for everyone to just nod their heads in agreement with your "super-blink" interpretation.

[Hackulator]

And that's fine for you to think that way, but it's open for interpretation. Each GM will have to think about what it means.

I get the feeling you don't actually want people to rule it differently than you are, but instead for everyone to just nod their heads in agreement with your "super-blink" interpretation.

Dude, I don't have a real interpretation, the "super-blink" thing was something funny I just thought of, not an actual ruling. If I thought I knew the answer, I wouldn't have made a post asking. What would the point be?

[martixy]

I can get behind what you're trying to do Hack, but frankly, I see no reasonable easy answer.

Also, I cannot find where in Rules Compedium it puts all incorporeal creatures as winking out.

Even if it doesn't for all creatures, this is a clear dysfunction for those that do and falls squarely within the DMs domain.

Me, I'd redefine "wink out" from "stop existing" to "be prevented from manifesting on the material plane".

[Hackulator]

I can get behind what you're trying to do Hack, but frankly, I see no reasonable easy answer.

Also, I cannot find where in Rules Compedium it puts all incorporeal creatures as winking out.

Even if it doesn't for all creatures, this is a clear dysfunction for those that do and falls squarely within the DMs domain.

Me, I'd redefine "wink out" from "stop existing" to "be prevented from manifesting on the material plane".

Rules compendium, page 11, 3rd paragraph in the subsection "Creatures" in the "Antimagic" section. "Summoned creatures of any type disappear if they enter an antimagic area. Incorporeal creatures do the same."

[Psyren]

Dude, I don't have a real interpretation, the "super-blink" thing was something funny I just thought of, not an actual ruling. If I thought I knew the answer, I wouldn't have made a post asking. What would the point be?

My point is that there is no actual ruling. Your GM (or you, if that's you) will have to go figure it out.

[Andezzar]

Disappear is not the same as cease to exist. A rogue succeding at a bluff and hide check disappears. Does he cease to exist? Someone using teleport/ plane shift disappears. Does he cease to exist?

So the quote much more supports martixy's interpretation than yours.

If wink out meant cease to exist, how do you justify reappearing? AMf does not have the ability to create something from nothing.

[Anthrowhale]

Tangentially, note that Selective[You] AMF avoids the rules conundrum.

The blinking houserule has the drawback that it invites the need for many more houserules. What happens to a fireball in the area of a blinking AMF?

The timeout houserule (you 'wink out', but the AMF continues to affect you and no others) seems simplest. Basically, it's a way to teleport forward in time by the duration of AMF.

The phantom AMF houserule (you 'wink out' but AMF continues to affect your last known location) seems to invite more houserules as well. What happens when an Initiate of Mystra casts a transdimensional spell on your wink out location?

[ExLibrisMortis]

No, it's not clear at all. For example, summons wink out too, but their durations keep counting down. So you could argue that they do still exist in some capacity.
Well, the potential or cause for them to exist keeps existing. You could compare it to the winking out of a light. The lightbulb stays where it is, but the light is definitely nonexistent while it's winked out. So: the incorporeal creature definitely does not exist while the antimagic field covers it, but it will reappear when the field dissipates (because there is still a potential creature). Clear enough for our purposes.


@Anthrowale: For the third version, that's simple. Nothing happens, because you do not exist.

[Bohandas]

It emanates from the caster's location and although temporarily non existent it still maintains its location ("They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.")

[Hackulator]

Just because you appear somewhere does not mean you were there before you appeared.

[logic_error]

You have stumbled on a nice example of cases where rules are inadaquate.

I would rule this scenario as follows:

1. Creature is native incorporeal:

It vanishes out of existence for the duration of the AMF. This is what would happen to it anyway.

2. Creature that had incorporeal as status effect:

Loses that effect to become corporeal for the duration of AMF.

[Geddy2112]

In Pathfinder, nothing happens. Being incorporeal is an extraordinary ability, and AMF won't break it, and the 3.5 text where AMF causes incorporeal undead to wink out is removed.

[Crake]

In Pathfinder, nothing happens. Being incorporeal is an extraordinary ability, and AMF won't break it, and the 3.5 text where AMF causes incorporeal undead to wink out is removed.

That actually makes incorporeal creatures obscenely powerful with antimagic, because there's practically no way for you to affect them, so they can just proceed to kill you without issue, which is why I believe 3.5 had the whole incorporeal creatures wink out clause in the first place.

[Hackulator]

That actually makes incorporeal creatures obscenely powerful with antimagic, because there's practically no way for you to affect them, so they can just proceed to kill you without issue, which is why I believe 3.5 had the whole incorporeal creatures wink out clause in the first place.

Although I think most Incorporeal touch attacks are supernatural so they couldn't hurt you either? I could be wrong about that though, don't know Pathfinder rules as well as 3.5

[Psyren]

That actually makes incorporeal creatures obscenely powerful with antimagic, because there's practically no way for you to affect them, so they can just proceed to kill you without issue, which is why I believe 3.5 had the whole incorporeal creatures wink out clause in the first place.


Although I think most Incorporeal touch attacks are supernatural so they couldn't hurt you either? I could be wrong about that though, don't know Pathfinder rules as well as 3.5

Exactly, what would they be killing you with? Also Ghost Salts exist for a nonmagical way to still hit them, while they've effectively turned off any way they have of hitting you, so it would be a pretty dumb strategy on their part.

[Hackulator]

Exactly, what would they be killing you with? Also Ghost Salts exist for a nonmagical way to still hit them, while they've effectively turned off any way they have of hitting you, so it would be a pretty dumb strategy on their part.

It would be amazing for going into certain situations, but you definitely couldn't fight like that.

[Bohandas]

That actually makes incorporeal creatures obscenely powerful with antimagic, because there's practically no way for you to affect them, so they can just proceed to kill you without issue, which is why I believe 3.5 had the whole incorporeal creatures wink out clause in the first place.

It could be argued that a magic sword remains a magic sword and thus able to hit incorporeal creatures even though it's magic "does not function"

[Necroticplague]

Exactly, what would they be killing you with? Also Ghost Salts exist for a nonmagical way to still hit them, while they've effectively turned off any way they have of hitting you, so it would be a pretty dumb strategy on their part.
Riverine weapons work both ways.

[Psyren]

Riverine weapons work both ways.

Riverine is 3.5 which means the creature winks out, making its weapons irrelevant.

[Thurbane]

As Riverine weapons are essentially high pressure water contained in Wall of Force effects, aren't they destroyed if you enter an AMF?

This is the RAW/RAI I often see brought up in relation to Riverine.

[unseenmage]

As Riverine weapons are essentially high pressure water contained in Wall of Force effects, aren't they destroyed if you enter an AMF?

This is the RAW/RAI I often see brought up in relation to Riverine.

Generally Special Materials are not magic items nor magic effects to my knowledge. Specifically Riverine is described as being made of Force. So the Force Effect rules would seem to apply here.
Are there any other Force Effects that are persistent and not the effect of a non-instantaneous duration spell?

[Necroticplague]

Riverine is 3.5 which means the creature winks out, making its weapons irrelevant. Ah, sorry, I thought we were talking about 3.5, in a manner of 'why they made them blink out'/ 'what if they didn't'?

Of course, any EX sources of corporeal->material damage I can think of aren't core, so couldn't have been considered when the core rule for incorporeal was made ([ghost] feats are EX like any other feat, I think. Also, there's The Phantom template, but that's mm5)


As Riverine weapons are essentially high pressure water contained in Wall of Force effects, aren't they destroyed if you enter an AMF?

This is the RAW/RAI I often see brought up in relation to Riverine.

Wall of force is unaffected by most spells, which, while vague, I usually see interpreted as 'any spell that doesn't explicitly call out wall of force interaction, or that wall of force references'. Thus, it's unaffected by AMF.

[Crake]

As Riverine weapons are essentially high pressure water contained in Wall of Force effects, aren't they destroyed if you enter an AMF?

This is the RAW/RAI I often see brought up in relation to Riverine.

Wall of force isn't affected by antimagic fields, so that logic doesn't work.


Although I think most Incorporeal touch attacks are supernatural so they couldn't hurt you either? I could be wrong about that though, don't know Pathfinder rules as well as 3.5

As far as I'm aware, an incorporeal creature's touch attack itself isn't supernatural, it's usually the carrier that is supernatural. Take for example a wraith, it's touch attack isn't denoted as either Ex or Su, so it must be treated as simply a normal natural attack. The attack itself deals damage (negative energy at that, but there's no precedence saying all negative energy damage is magical, as far as I'm aware). It's constitution drain on the other hand, the carrier effect, is most definitely affected by an AMF, but that doesn't stop it from simply damaging people to death. Shadow demons are another example of creatures with nonmagical touch attacks, shadow demons even doing extra cold damage on their attacks, again not noted as supernatural in any way.


Exactly, what would they be killing you with? Also Ghost Salts exist for a nonmagical way to still hit them, while they've effectively turned off any way they have of hitting you, so it would be a pretty dumb strategy on their part.

Ghost salts may be an option (as is holy water against incorporeal undead), but how many people would reasonably be carrying those once they get their hands on a magical weapon? As I said above, there's nothing denoting an incorporeal creature's basic touch attack as supernatural, so there's nothing to stop it from simply being able to slowly damage you to death.

[Psyren]

Ghost salts may be an option (as is holy water against incorporeal undead), but how many people would reasonably be carrying those once they get their hands on a magical weapon? As I said above, there's nothing denoting an incorporeal creature's basic touch attack as supernatural, so there's nothing to stop it from simply being able to slowly damage you to death.

Most of the ones I can find are specifically Su - Ghosts, Shadows, Allips. A Wraith's is ambiguous, but even if you rule against the corporeal creature, they still lose their Con drain and the target can simply walk outside.

[Hackulator]

Most of the ones I can find are specifically Su - Ghosts, Shadows, Allips. A Wraith's is ambiguous, but even if you rule against the corporeal creature, they still lose their Con drain and the target can simply walk outside.

Also remember ghost salts take a full round to apply and only last for a single hit, so against most things they're not particularly effective for combat.

[Psyren]

Also remember ghost salts take a full round to apply and only last for a single hit, so against most things they're not particularly effective for combat.

However the duration is indefinite, so you can load up a bunch of arrows ahead of time (10 per blanch in fact.) Against a ghost dumb enough to AMF itself, that should be sufficient.

[fire_insideout]

If the field goes out immediately when the creature disappears and pops back in immediately when it appears this becomes a version of Thompson's lamp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson%27s_lamp), and not a blink effect at all.

Basically you'd get infinite 'exists' and infinite 'does not exist' within each round, so the question becomes: How do you treat a creature that exists and does not exist at the same time? It's not blink, because if you move a object which could interact with the creature through its space it will interact with it an infinite amount of times.

[Crake]

Most of the ones I can find are specifically Su - Ghosts, Shadows, Allips. A Wraith's is ambiguous, but even if you rule against the corporeal creature, they still lose their Con drain and the target can simply walk outside.

You say "the target can simply walk outside" like the wraith/shadow demon/whatever can't follow them and continue to hound them while remaining impervious to attacks?


However the duration is indefinite, so you can load up a bunch of arrows ahead of time (10 per blanch in fact.) Against a ghost dumb enough to AMF itself, that should be sufficient.

Obviously a ghost would be dumb to use an amf, considering that they lose most/all of their abilities, but for other creatures who don't it makes them practically invulnerable. If someone happened to be carrying around a hundred ghost salted arrows, the incorporeal creature can simply sink into the ground and use hit and run tactics, but tell me, in how many games have you had that many ghost salted arrows lying about? How often have you had even 10 ghost salted arrows? I suspect the answer is not often/never, because magic weapons tend to work well enough to do the job.

[Psyren]

You say "the target can simply walk outside" like the wraith/shadow demon/whatever can't follow them and continue to hound them while remaining impervious to attacks?

1) They're not impervious. As was mentioned several times before, ghost salts exist.

2) That comment was a dig at the fact that Wraiths are powerless in sunlight. And honestly, 1d6 per round isn't a big deal even at level 5, never mind whatever level these creatures would need to be to somehow cast AMF in the first place.


If someone happened to be carrying around a hundred ghost salted arrows, the incorporeal creature can simply sink into the ground and use hit and run tactics

Readied actions exist, learn them, love them.



, but tell me, in how many games have you had that many ghost salted arrows lying about? How often have you had even 10 ghost salted arrows? I suspect the answer is not often/never, because magic weapons tend to work well enough to do the job.

How many wraiths do you know that can cast AMF? We're operating in hypotheticals here are we not?

[Calthropstu]

Why oh why must the playground insist on dividing by zero?
If the universe suddenly ends, you can bet a playgrounder was involved somehow.
(Most likely Red Fel)

[Crake]

1) They're not impervious. As was mentioned several times before, ghost salts exist.

Practically so, as mentioned most people don't walk around with a bag filled with ghost salts, and even if they do, that'll run out eventually, so if you don't manage to kill the creature before then, you're in trouble.


2) That comment was a dig at the fact that Wraiths are powerless in sunlight. And honestly, 1d6 per round isn't a big deal even at level 5, never mind whatever level these creatures would need to be to somehow cast AMF in the first place.

1d6 unmitigatable damage per round will kill you eventually when there's nowhere you can run or hide.


Readied actions exist, learn them, love them.

Sure, but readied actions mean no full attacks, which means no clustered shots, so the creature gets more damage in per point of damage it takes, and if it's got damage reduction (like a shadow demon does) then you're even worse off.

How many wraiths do you know that can cast AMF? We're operating in hypotheticals here are we not?[/QUOTE]

It only needs to be 1 creature casting the spell. A shadow demon UMDing a scroll isn't out of the realm of possibilities, and then he can have a whole cohort of buddies if he wants. Using hit and run tactics against your 1d8 damage arrows, with their DR10/cold iron or good, you're gonna have a bad time.

Totally possible for an evil wizard to planar bind and set up something like that as early as level 11. Assuming the wizard is a "boss" encounter, at CR+3, the players are gonna be about level 7 when they enter his lair, likely expecting to hit level 8 by the time they get up to the wizard. Then this gets thrown at them. What do they do? Shadow Demons are CR7, add on a cohort of 2 CR5 wraiths, and you have a EL9 encounter where the party is practically incapable of victory.

[Psyren]

I'm sorry Crake, but you're really reaching here. How are incorporeal creatures supposed to even carry and use scrolls in the first place? Where are they getting these ranks in UMD from? Literally the only creature that this is even remotely reasonable for are ghosts, and AMF shuts off everything they can do, so it's a non-starter and nonsensical.

Concerning the Shadow Demon's DR, putting aside that DR/cold iron is supernatural and thus his brilliant AMF strategy is rendering it useless, all you'd need to beat that anyway are salted cold iron arrows, and the term DEMON should give you a hint that you might want to grab some before you go fight it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How are incorporeal creatures supposed to even carry and use scrolls in the first place?
Not to disturb the argument one way or another, but this is actually fairly easy, as any item can become incorporeal, it just needs to be carried by an incorporeal creature, who can then handle it and pass it to other incorporeal creatures without trouble. Spells like ghost trap work rather nicely for that. Not that I'd expect any shadows to be carrying scrolls of antimagic field anytime soon, but they could.

[Psyren]

I can't find that spell anywhere on the PFSRD. If it's from 3.5, that just means you wink out and it's thus still irrelevant.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I can't find that spell anywhere on the PFSRD. If it's from 3.5, that just means you wink out and it's thus still irrelevant.
It is a 3.5 spell, yeah. But I'm sure there's a PF spell that will turn you incorporeal, or an incorporeal creature corporeal. Daywalker, for example.

[Psyren]

It is a 3.5 spell, yeah. But I'm sure there's a PF spell that will turn you incorporeal, or an incorporeal creature corporeal. Daywalker, for example.

Daywalker does the latter but not the former, which is what you'd need.

Even assuming this is possible though, you'd still need to somehow find a Shadow Demon with UMD ranks, and even after all that effort, any rando with cold iron arrows and 200gp can easily undo all your hard work. So I stand by what I've said.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Daywalker does the latter but not the former, which is what you'd need.
Nah, you cast the spell, pick up the items you need, and dismiss it. Anyway, not interested in the rest of the argument, though I agree shadows with UMD are more than halfway to ludicrousness.

[Psyren]

Nah, you cast the spell, pick up the items you need, and dismiss it.

That would just result in your still-corporeal items falling to the ground.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That would just result in your still-corporeal items falling to the ground.
When you turn incorporeal, your equipment goes with you, and dismissing daywalker is no different than turning incorporeal some other way.

[Psyren]

When you turn incorporeal, your equipment goes with you, and dismissing daywalker is no different than turning incorporeal some other way.

It's very different. In this case you're reverting to incorporeality - the spell was actually making you corporeal, and once dismissed, the spell ceases to exist and your return to your natural state. There is no longer a spell there to make any items change their own state.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's very different. In this case you're reverting to incorporeality - the spell was actually making you corporeal, and once dismissed, the spell ceases to exist and your return to your natural state. There is no longer a spell there to make any items change their own state.
Doesn't matter here. Any object attended by an incorporeal creature is incorporeal until released. You don't need a spell to keep them that way.

Essentially, the spell doesn't stop objects from being attended either when cast or when ended, so you have a 'before' situation where you're corporeal and attending objects XYZ, and an 'after' situation where you're incorporeal and still attending objects XYZ, who are, by inference, also incorporeal, because you're making them so by attending them.

[Hackulator]

Doesn't matter here. Any object attended by an incorporeal creature is incorporeal until released. You don't need a spell to keep them that way.

Essentially, the spell doesn't stop objects from being attended either when cast or when ended, so you have a 'before' situation where you're corporeal and attending objects XYZ, and an 'after' situation where you're incorporeal and still attending objects XYZ, who are, by inference, also incorporeal, because you're making them so by attending them.

Where are you getting that bolded part from?

[Psyren]

Doesn't matter here. Any object attended by an incorporeal creature is incorporeal until released. You don't need a spell to keep them that way.

At no point is the incorporeal creature actually attending the item though. The only time it can attend the item is while it is corporeal. Also, source for this rule?

[ExLibrisMortis]

At no point is the incorporeal creature actually attending the item though. The only time it can attend the item is while it is corporeal. Also, source for this rule?
Of course it is attending the item. It picks it up and carries it while corporeal, then becomes incorporeal and continues carrying it. It can attend the item perfectly well regardless of corporealty, and nowhere does the transition from corporeal to incorporeal mess with carrying/wielding/wearing items.

The rule appears in MM3 and is quoted in Libris Mortis (edit: glossary on incorporealty and the "running an undead campaign" section respectively). I'm not sure where the PF equivalent is, but I assume it transfers, in absence of any PF-specific replacement (I mean, attended items and incorporealty still exist, right?).

[Psyren]

Of course it is attending the item. It picks it up and carries it while corporeal, then becomes incorporeal and continues carrying it.

Nope, that's where you've lost me. Nothing in the spell states it makes anything you didn't start corporeality with stay with you.



The rule appears in MM3 and is quoted in Libris Mortis (edit: glossary on incorporealty and the "running an undead campaign" section respectively). I'm not sure where the PF equivalent is, but I assume it transfers, in absence of any PF-specific replacement (I mean, attended items and incorporealty still exist, right?).

Again, without the spell itself saying this, rules from MM3 and LM have no bearing on PF.

[Crake]

Shadow demons have a possession SLA that they can use to simply possess someone and use the scroll that way. Worst case, you get some cheap ghost touch gloves.
According to pathfinder, activating a scroll simply requires that you be able to see and read the writing on the scroll, nothing about needing to be able to physically manipulate it, so if the scroll was laid out for the incorporeal creature, and it had ranks in UMD then there's no problem. A shadow demon could do this by simply using it's possession SLA.

There's nothing stopping a shadow demon from having ranks in UMD, and in pathfinder, it's especially simple, since the only issue with cross class skills is that you don't get the +3 bonus. You know not ever single monster needs to be played exactly by the book right? Saying that just because the default shadow demon doesn't have UMD, that no shadow demon ever could possibly have UMD is silly.

I know back in 3.5, DR/cold iron was considered Ex, and pathfinder still lists DR as Ex or Su here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Damage-Reduction-Ex-or-Su-) (though weirdly here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reduction) it doesn't denote Ex or Su, but the first line states its supernatural. Still, the first source is universal monster rules, so I'd be inclined to follow that when dealing with monsters, and there is definitely a precedence for Ex DR from the barbarian), so unless there's evidence somewhere in pathfinder to suggest a change in that regard, DR/cold Iron is in fact Ex.

As for salted cold iron arrows, now you're getting even more specific. It's unreasonable to expect a level 7 character to have been able to fully scout in advance, be able to know that there's going to be an AMF involved, to then go and buy cold iron arrows, blanche them with ghost salts, and then come back. Especially since incorporeal creatures can you know, hide in the walls until they need to fight.

My whole point is that an AMF on an incorporeal creature in pathfinder is incredibly strong, being practically impervious while being able to retalite. Sure you can go on about ghost salted, cold iron arrows, but that's just not something people wander around with. If you're going to tell me you've never gone into a fight blind, and have always been prepared for every single encounter, I'm just going to flat out not believe you, and if just one of those encounters happened to be an incorporeal creature in an AMF, that was able to attack you, there's practically nothing you would have been able to do, and it's for this reason that I understand why in 3.5 incorporeal creatures winked out.

Personally, I would have preferred a middle ground, where incorporeal undead weren't winked out, but simply could not interact with anything or anyone in an AMF in any way, as the idea of "winking out" doesn't sit well with me.

[Psyren]

Shadow demons have a possession SLA that they can use to simply possess someone and use the scroll that way.

Which shuts off their SLA, leaving them trapped. GJ?



Worst case, you get some cheap ghost touch gloves.

These look like third party.


There's nothing stopping a shadow demon from having ranks in UMD, and in pathfinder, it's especially simple, since the only issue with cross class skills is that you don't get the +3 bonus.
You know not ever single monster needs to be played exactly by the book right? Saying that just because the default shadow demon doesn't have UMD, that no shadow demon ever could possibly have UMD is silly.
...
As for salted cold iron arrows, now you're getting even more specific. It's unreasonable to expect a level 7 character to have been able to fully scout in advance, be able to know that there's going to be an AMF involved, to then go and buy cold iron arrows, blanche them with ghost salts, and then come back. Especially since incorporeal creatures can you know, hide in the walls until they need to fight.

So you're okay with custom monsters and homebrew items, but you draw the line at 200gp alchemy? :smallconfused:
The lengths you're going to to engineer this scenario are honestly baffling to me.

[Crake]

Which shuts off their SLA, leaving them trapped. GJ?

They wouldn't be trapped, they would be expelled, since the spell is suppressed, but see my revised point, no gloves, no possession necessary.


So you're okay with custom monsters and homebrew items, but you draw the line at 200gp alchemy? :smallconfused:
The lengths you're going to to engineer this scenario are honestly baffling to me.

"Custom monsters"? Do you mean "Customizing monsters"? You know, the way they are supposed to be? Do you have all commoners being exactly the same? Are all town guards in every region the same level, and have the same feats/skills? Why should monsters be any different? It's not about the cost, it's about the likihood of people using it in the first place. Tell me, on your current characters, how many of them are carrying ghost salted arrows? If your DM threw this kind of encounter at you right now, how many of your current characters would be able to retaliate at all?

This is honestly not very "lengthy engineering". It's literally 1 creature, with one rank moved into UMD (a very often used skill, so not unreasonable) casting a single spell from a single scroll, which suddenly makes it all but impervious except in the unlikely happenstance that you happen to have the one exact counter, that isn't even really a counter, it's more like "oh, now I can actually deal some minor damage to you while you ravage me and my party. God forbid you have some incorporeal buddies around who can also take advantage of your antimagic field".

[Psyren]

"Custom monsters"? Do you mean "Customizing monsters"? You know, the way they are supposed to be?

I'm actually fine with customizing monsters. But you can't do that to create a highly specific challenge and then turn around and claim that using a printed alchemical item to solve it is somehow unreasonable or niche. Not without being unreasonable yourself.


They wouldn't be trapped, they would be expelled, since the spell is suppressed, but see my revised point, no gloves, no possession necessary.

So now you're adding yet another creature to this ridiculous encounter to hold the scroll for them so they can read it, and still claiming it is CR 7.

[Crake]

I'm actually fine with customizing monsters. But you can't do that to create a highly specific challenge and then turn around and claim that using a printed alchemical item to solve it is somehow unreasonable or niche. Not without being unreasonable yourself.

I wouldn't say that moving skill points from one skill to another, and casting a single spell from a scroll is "highly specific". It's combining two things. Incorporeality and an AMF. You still haven't told me how many of your characters have ghost salted arrows just laying about for a circumstance like this. It's not that the literally singular solution is unreasonable, or niche, it's that it's unreasonably niche. Once players have magical weapons, this circmstance becomes practically the singular use for ghost salts, and since players tend to have a limited amount of money to spend, they like to go for items that have more than a single, niche use. It doesn't matter that a solution exists if the players don't have that solution readily available when the issue arises.


So now you're adding yet another creature to this ridiculous encounter to hold the scroll for them so they can read it, and still claiming it is CR 7.

Who said it needs to be held for them when they activate it? It can literally be laid out onto a table or lecturn, something the shadow demon could do itself by possessing... literally anything

I think you're missing the point though. DMs come up with wild and fanciful encounters all the time, you're so focused on the fact that there is a solution to the problem that you're not considering that the solution is likely to never be on hand. The problem doesn't have to be a planar bound shadow demon, it could be whatever the DM wants it to be. The point is about the game design of a creature that's practically only susceptible to magic being able to make itself practically immune to magic.

It's like throwing a half green dragon woodling war troll in an AMF at the players and saying "oh, they could just use trollbane". Only it's far fewer pieces to put together.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Again, without the spell itself saying this, rules from MM3 and LM have no bearing on PF.
Right, then it's not a PF rule, fair enough. In that case, I'm not sure what would happen with attended objects in PF; looking through the Paizo forums, there doesn't appear to be an answer, and incorporeal creatures are entirely without equipment (barring ghost touch, which applies to weapons and armour only). Someone brought up the following (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t0ir?Incorporeality-and-Players#6):


The Shadowform Belt is a badly written item. RAW, the rogue become incorporeal and all his gear fall to the ground. [...]
This is true. I'm pretty sure anybody reading it sees the difficulty and ignores it in favor of RAI: The wearer and all his gear becomes incorporeal. The alternative is to read it your way, the wearer becomes incorporeal and all his gear falls to the ground, including the belt, which means he becomes corporeal again - but naked and disarmed.
Which is pretty funny, because the original discussion here is about the same problem, where your activated ability makes itself impossible.

Anyway, that's it from me for tonight, enjoy.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't say that moving skill points from one skill to another, and casting a single spell from a scroll is "highly specific". It's combining two things. Incorporeality and an AMF. You still haven't told me how many of your characters have ghost salted arrows just laying about for a circumstance like this.

I simply moved my skill points to Craft: Alchemy. That's a thing we're doing, right?

[ben-zayb]

The more important question here is that does this "blinking", presuming it works like that, trigger Sun School feat's Flash of Sunset?

[Calthropstu]

Psyren, an uncarnate could pull it off.

[Crake]

I simply moved my skill points to Craft: Alchemy. That's a thing we're doing, right?

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point, or are legitimately unable to fathom a world where literally everyone is equipped at all times for every possible scenario.

Let me spell it out for you: Most problems either a) have many solutions, or b) have solutions that solve many problems, and are thus very likely to be kept at hand due to their versatility. This particular problem is neither of those. It has pretty much exactly one solution, that has no other application beyond the point where magic items become readily available. That is poor game design, if you cannot see that, then I guess you're just being willfully ignorant. Calthropstu gave you another example of a creature that could do this, and I'm sure that there would be many more, but you seem so fixated on poking holes in the one random example I put together, rather than paying attention to the point being illustrated by that example. If an uncarnate casting AMF and transporting around his shadow demon buddy in a bubble of immunity is less offensive to your sensibilities, then maybe that's what it would take for you to address the issue rather than the example.

[Psyren]

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point, or are legitimately unable to fathom a world where literally everyone is equipped at all times for every possible scenario.

Let me spell it out for you: Most problems either a) have many solutions, or b) have solutions that solve many problems, and are thus very likely to be kept at hand due to their versatility. This particular problem is neither of those. It has pretty much exactly one solution, that has no other application beyond the point where magic items become readily available. That is poor game design, if you cannot see that, then I guess you're just being willfully ignorant. Calthropstu gave you another example of a creature that could do this, and I'm sure that there would be many more, but you seem so fixated on poking holes in the one random example I put together, rather than paying attention to the point being illustrated by that example. If an uncarnate casting AMF and transporting around his shadow demon buddy in a bubble of immunity is less offensive to your sensibilities, then maybe that's what it would take for you to address the issue rather than the example.

I can fathom it just fine. What you can't seem to fathom is a world where uncarnates hosting shadow demons in spheres of antimagic is less reasonable than the idea that a low-magic militia would keep a few 200gp items handy; items that, by the way, are useful even if you're not facing an creature that hit upon your amazing incorporeal+AMF wombo-combo. And lest we forget, you're still running to 3rd party to justify all this nonsense.


Psyren, an uncarnate could pull it off.

Third-party as mentioned above.

[Crake]

I can fathom it just fine. What you can't seem to fathom is a world where uncarnates hosting shadow demons in spheres of antimagic is less reasonable than the idea that a low-magic militia would keep a few 200gp items handy; items that, by the way, are useful even if you're not facing an creature that hit upon your amazing incorporeal+AMF wombo-combo.

Where's this random militia coming from. I'm talking about an adventuring party coming across an encounter in a dungeon. You don't have time to run back to town and restock as the creature kills you, you didn't happen to have that one 200gp item on you at the time scratch that, you didn't happen to apply that 200gp item to 10 of your arrows ahead of time, half of which will miss and be useless because shooting a bow isn't your primary method of attack, and the other half that will do between 3-10, assuming you've applied it specifically to cold iron arrows to bypass the creature's DR in the first place. Oh and now that you've run out of your 10 arrows, and the creature is still kicking, and you're screwed, guess you should have spent more of your limited wbl on that obscure, niche item that you would have otherwise never used. What's that you say? It's handy in other circumstances? Please, enlighten me where ghost salts would be handy over the magical weapon you've had for the last few levels?

Now replace Shadow Demon with literally any other non-mindless incorporeal creature capable of picking it's own skill points, give it a reason to have an AMF, and you have the exact same issue, because it's not a wombo combo, it's bad game design.


Third-party as mentioned above.

Cool story who cares, it doesn't actually affect the point at all.

[Thurbane]

Are we talking about the same Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm)? I don't believe it's third party, FWIW.

[Psyren]

Where's this random militia coming from. I'm talking about an adventuring party coming across an encounter in a dungeon. You don't have time to run back to town and restock as the creature kills you,

If you can't get away from a creature with no powers in a 10ft. emanation that's your problem.


Are we talking about the same Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm)? I don't believe it's third party, FWIW.

This whole argument has been about Pathfinder, because incorporeal creatures don't wink out there. So he's contrived some nonsense scenario where an incorporeal creature uses that fact to become an unstoppable terror, or at least it would if they didn't lose all their relevant abilities in the process and if it weren't for the existence of a 200gp alchemical item.

[Calthropstu]

Fair enough, it would also require "psionics as different" in order to actually work because while shed body is ex, all his other abilities is su, shut down by the amf.
So, against a non-Psion, an uncarnate in a psionics is different campaign wrecks any nonpsionic party if protected with amf.
Otherwise, AMF makes an incorporeal creature an impervious nuisance that can't do anything in pathfinder.

I am totally making this character for my game. A ghost with a permanent AMF that pops up and pesters the PCs.

Thought of something that would work... an artifact with the ghost touch property. A ghost with permanent AMF and a ghost touch artifact weapon? SCARY. Only counter is another artifact.