Big Stupid Arcane Trickster (and other counter-stereotype builds that work well)

[PartyChef]

So the intent behind this threat is to collect a series of out-of-the-box builds that go against traditional optimizing but actually operate at levels close to pure optimization (and have the bonus of being unique, fun, and interesting on top of that).

To start off, as indicated in the title, I present the Big Stupid Arcane Trickster:

Half-Orc Arcane Trickster X / Ranger 1
Str 17
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 9

The build requires that at some point (either at 2nd or 3rd level) you dip Ranger for medium armor and shield proficiency (you could go human and get the Medium Armor Feat but I like the idea of a half-orc way better and want my big lurker to have darkvision).

Then you go back to the rogue and make sure you get booming blade at 4th level (rogue 3) and shield mastery at 5 (4).

From there on out, you are all set to bash somebody prone, BB with advantage for sneak attack damage, and if they stand up, they take the BB damage.

The build involves taking enlarge/reduce as your non-enchant/illusion spell for level 2 and maxing strength.

I also take medium armor mastery, sentinel, and blade mastery (or mobility if UA is not allowed).

Obviously Athletics is his top skill with expertise and the rest are fairly unimportant (I went with stealth, perception, and survival being my other expertise skills although thieve's tools is also a good choice)

Conceptually, the guy works as a bounty hunter (thanks to Ranger) and tracks people down for a living to be ambushed, beat down, knocked out, tied up, and dragged in for monies.

So, let me know what people think of this build and if they have any similar interesting builds.

p.s. another interesting build that I have not hashed out yet is a GreyGuard-like Fallen Paladin (oathbreaker) warlock (undying light) character who tried to max out AC, picks up a shield of missile attraction, and casts crusaders mantle with maxed cha so that allies have +5 to saves and 1d4+10 to damage. I am thinking tomelock so he can pick up shillelagh and pole-arm master.

[JBPuffin]

Paladin 5(Devotion or Vengeance)/Wizard 15 (Bladesinger or Abjuration)

I've had the Arcane Recovery+Smite combo in my head for awhile now; basically, you're a nova melee combatant with a load of utility, using Arcane Recovery when you're low on smitin' slots while saving high-level stuff for more important fights. The rest of the build comes down to your preferred brand of combat. I'd start by getting all 5 levels of paladin and adding wizard from there, but there are probably other ways of doing it.

[Waazraath]

Variant on your BSAT, the Big Ugly Arcane Trickster:

Vuman rogue (AT) 20, str 10, dex 16, con 16, int 14, wis 10, cha 8

ASI/feats:
1(B) resilient (con)
4: +2 dex
8: sentinel
10: +2 dex
12: mage slayer
16: +2 con
19: lucky (or +2 con, or tough, whatever is most needed at this point).

Spells: in any case find familiair, mirror image, misty step, fly, greater invisibility, stone skin

Melee rogue;
Defenses: good saving throws (proficient in big three wis/ref/con); evasion; decent AC (especially with mirror image & uncanny dodge); good hp;
Attack: regular opportunity attacks with sentinel & mage slayer; advantage with owl familiar.
Action economy: should always be able to have an action (spell / attack), bonus action (spell, cunning action), reaction (aoo / uncanny dodge)
Special: against enemy spelcaster: misty step 5ft range, attack, and have 'em eat aoo with either mage slayer or sentinel.

Variant of this variant: BM fighter 6 / AT rogue, same idea, but with shield master feat & riposte maneuver, instead of sentinel / mage slayer.


It's a testimony to 5e's greatness, that these kind of builds can work.

[Mellack]

So the intent behind this threat is to collect a series of out-of-the-box builds that go against traditional optimizing but actually operate at levels close to pure optimization (and have the bonus of being unique, fun, and interesting on top of that).

To start off, as indicated in the title, I present the Big Stupid Arcane Trickster:

Half-Orc Arcane Trickster X / Ranger 1
Str 17
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 9

The build requires that at some point (either at 2nd or 3rd level) you dip Ranger for medium armor and shield proficiency (you could go human and get the Medium Armor Feat but I like the idea of a half-orc way better and want my big lurker to have darkvision).

Then you go back to the rogue and make sure you get booming blade at 4th level (rogue 3) and shield mastery at 5 (4).

From there on out, you are all set to bash somebody prone, BB with advantage for sneak attack damage, and if they stand up, they take the BB damage.

The build involves taking enlarge/reduce as your non-enchant/illusion spell for level 2 and maxing strength.

I also take medium armor mastery, sentinel, and blade mastery (or mobility if UA is not allowed).

Obviously Athletics is his top skill with expertise and the rest are fairly unimportant (I went with stealth, perception, and survival being my other expertise skills although thieve's tools is also a good choice)

Conceptually, the guy works as a bounty hunter (thanks to Ranger) and tracks people down for a living to be ambushed, beat down, knocked out, tied up, and dragged in for monies.

So, let me know what people think of this build and if they have any similar interesting builds.

p.s. another interesting build that I have not hashed out yet is a GreyGuard-like Fallen Paladin (oathbreaker) warlock (undying light) character who tried to max out AC, picks up a shield of missile attraction, and casts crusaders mantle with maxed cha so that allies have +5 to saves and 1d4+10 to damage. I am thinking tomelock so he can pick up shillelagh and pole-arm master.



I am a bit confused. This guy will be great at athletics to knock people prone, but how will you use that with Booming Blade? Shield Mastery requires that you take the attack action to get the bonus action shove. So it doesn't work when casting. Additionally, standing up does not count as moving, so that will not trigger extra damage from the spell.

[Easy_Lee]

May as well mention the tank wizard: variant human (war caster) fighter 1 / abjuration wizard. Full plate and a shield + quarterstaff (arcane focus) with the Defense fighting style and Shield spell.
- 21 AC, shield on reaction
- Nearly full casting
- War Caster + Constitution saving throw means you'll almost never lose concentration
- Adding the abjuration wizard perks makes the build harder to kill than a barbarian.
- No MADness. Qualify for plate armor and you're good to go.

[Gignere]

Paladin 5(Devotion or Vengeance)/Wizard 15 (Bladesinger or Abjuration)

I've had the Arcane Recovery+Smite combo in my head for awhile now; basically, you're a nova melee combatant with a load of utility, using Arcane Recovery when you're low on smitin' slots while saving high-level stuff for more important fights. The rest of the build comes down to your preferred brand of combat. I'd start by getting all 5 levels of paladin and adding wizard from there, but there are probably other ways of doing it.

If you are doing pally/BS there is no reason to go more than 2 paladin. If you are going for 5 might as well do 6 paladin to get the aura.

[SharkForce]

So the intent behind this threat is to collect a series of out-of-the-box builds that go against traditional optimizing but actually operate at levels close to pure optimization (and have the bonus of being unique, fun, and interesting on top of that).

To start off, as indicated in the title, I present the Big Stupid Arcane Trickster:

Half-Orc Arcane Trickster X / Ranger 1
Str 17
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 9

The build requires that at some point (either at 2nd or 3rd level) you dip Ranger for medium armor and shield proficiency (you could go human and get the Medium Armor Feat but I like the idea of a half-orc way better and want my big lurker to have darkvision).

Then you go back to the rogue and make sure you get booming blade at 4th level (rogue 3) and shield mastery at 5 (4).

From there on out, you are all set to bash somebody prone, BB with advantage for sneak attack damage, and if they stand up, they take the BB damage.

The build involves taking enlarge/reduce as your non-enchant/illusion spell for level 2 and maxing strength.

I also take medium armor mastery, sentinel, and blade mastery (or mobility if UA is not allowed).

Obviously Athletics is his top skill with expertise and the rest are fairly unimportant (I went with stealth, perception, and survival being my other expertise skills although thieve's tools is also a good choice)

Conceptually, the guy works as a bounty hunter (thanks to Ranger) and tracks people down for a living to be ambushed, beat down, knocked out, tied up, and dragged in for monies.

So, let me know what people think of this build and if they have any similar interesting builds.

p.s. another interesting build that I have not hashed out yet is a GreyGuard-like Fallen Paladin (oathbreaker) warlock (undying light) character who tried to max out AC, picks up a shield of missile attraction, and casts crusaders mantle with maxed cha so that allies have +5 to saves and 1d4+10 to damage. I am thinking tomelock so he can pick up shillelagh and pole-arm master.

not sure why you went ranger. pretty sure fighter offers everything important you would get from ranger, and more. it gives you a small heal (not amazing, but hey, free healing is free healing), a fighting style, and no need for 13 wisdom (not that 13 wisdom is horrible, but there's plenty of other places I'd like to put those attribute points).

meanwhile, favoured enemy is not that big a deal when the rogue can already be a master at using skills anyways.

[Gignere]

So the intent behind this threat is to collect a series of out-of-the-box builds that go against traditional optimizing but actually operate at levels close to pure optimization (and have the bonus of being unique, fun, and interesting on top of that).

To start off, as indicated in the title, I present the Big Stupid Arcane Trickster:

Half-Orc Arcane Trickster X / Ranger 1
Str 17
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 9

The build requires that at some point (either at 2nd or 3rd level) you dip Ranger for medium armor and shield proficiency (you could go human and get the Medium Armor Feat but I like the idea of a half-orc way better and want my big lurker to have darkvision).

Then you go back to the rogue and make sure you get booming blade at 4th level (rogue 3) and shield mastery at 5 (4).

From there on out, you are all set to bash somebody prone, BB with advantage for sneak attack damage, and if they stand up, they take the BB damage.

The build involves taking enlarge/reduce as your non-enchant/illusion spell for level 2 and maxing strength.

I also take medium armor mastery, sentinel, and blade mastery (or mobility if UA is not allowed).

Obviously Athletics is his top skill with expertise and the rest are fairly unimportant (I went with stealth, perception, and survival being my other expertise skills although thieve's tools is also a good choice)

Conceptually, the guy works as a bounty hunter (thanks to Ranger) and tracks people down for a living to be ambushed, beat down, knocked out, tied up, and dragged in for monies.

So, let me know what people think of this build and if they have any similar interesting builds.

p.s. another interesting build that I have not hashed out yet is a GreyGuard-like Fallen Paladin (oathbreaker) warlock (undying light) character who tried to max out AC, picks up a shield of missile attraction, and casts crusaders mantle with maxed cha so that allies have +5 to saves and 1d4+10 to damage. I am thinking tomelock so he can pick up shillelagh and pole-arm master.

Why dip ranger and not fighter? If all you are going for is the medium armor and shield. Might as well get a fighting style out of it, maybe defense to compliment your tanky idea.

[Chugger]

I think Sneak Attack only works w/ a finesse weapon. Oh - you can choose to attack w/ a fin. weap.but in a strengthy way and get str to hit and dam bonus anyway? Is that how it works?

[Sindeloke]

Ranger is more thematic, no? I guess the issue is "is this a rogue who doesn't look like other rogues, or is this a rogue chassis used to create an Eldritch Knight." If the latter, sure, it's basically a magical Iron Scoundrel and should grab the Fighter level. But if it's still supposed to be fundamentally a rogue, Ranger is the better fit for adding more to the rogue aspect of the character via skill perks. Also the half-level of casting might end up being helpful for an AT, though I haven't done the napkin math on that.

[SharkForce]

I think Sneak Attack only works w/ a finesse weapon. Oh - you can choose to attack w/ a fin. weap.but in a strengthy way and get str to hit and dam bonus anyway? Is that how it works?

that is exactly how it works.


Ranger is more thematic, no? I guess the issue is "is this a rogue who doesn't look like other rogues, or is this a rogue chassis used to create an Eldritch Knight." If the latter, sure, it's basically a magical Iron Scoundrel and should grab the Fighter level. But if it's still supposed to be fundamentally a rogue, Ranger is the better fit for adding more to the rogue aspect of the character via skill perks. Also the half-level of casting might end up being helpful for an AT, though I haven't done the napkin math on that.

when you introduce your character, are you "<name> the Xth level <class>"?

because I don't. the only people who see your character sheet are the people who are literally not in the world that your character is. your character is simply a collection of abilities, and most probably would describe themselves in a completely different way; adventurer, treasure hunter, bounty hunter, tracker, etc. whether your bounty hunter has a level of fighter or ranger is irrelevant, so long as you have the skills to track someone down one way or the other.

(also, I'm not sure ranger or paladin give 1/2 caster level to the formula until at least level 2 when they actually become a spellcaster).

[Sindeloke]

The title of the thread is "counter-stereotype builds." The basic idea of "build a bounty hunter" doesn't involve countering any stereotypes, and neither does "add a fighter level to a frontline fighter." "Strength-based rogue who does frontline things using mostly rogue features" on the other hand is absolutely a counter to a very common stereotype.

Addressing the in-universe character concept is important for play, obviously. But for the sake of a mechanical exercise designed around the out-of-universe themes associated with certain specific mechanics, it's fairly irrelevant, while the mechanics being subverted are very relevant indeed.

Of course if we're just here for interesting mechanical combinations period that's a different thing, but the impression I got from the OP was more precise than that.

IDK about the half level officially, but as a DM I think I'd rule it to count. On the theory that paladin already has magic at level 1 in the form of detect evil, and the ranger is a druid paladin and thus should be presumed to be equally as magical at the same level (which is to say, not enough for a full spell, but like... some). If your DM wouldn't let it count I can't see it being a big deal though, the build isn't hugely reliant on spell slots.

[djreynolds]

I did a build like this when BB didn't exist, now it does. I used lots of invisibility and shield master

I would grab more ranger, for horde breaker and pass without a trace. +10 to stealth will cover plate armor' s disadvantage along with expertise, you can be real stealthy in heavy armor and leave dex at 13.

[EdenIndustries]

This character idea is awesome and I really want to love it but...


I am a bit confused. This guy will be great at athletics to knock people prone, but how will you use that with Booming Blade? Shield Mastery requires that you take the attack action to get the bonus action shove. So it doesn't work when casting. Additionally, standing up does not count as moving, so that will not trigger extra damage from the spell.

Mellack is right about all this. To corroborate the last part about standing up from prone, here's Jeremy Crawford confirming:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/

[JBPuffin]

If you are doing pally/BS there is no reason to go more than 2 paladin. If you are going for 5 might as well do 6 paladin to get the aura.

Yeah, I wasn't sure on that. Pally 6/Wiz 14, then.

[PartyChef]

Shield Mastery requires that you take the attack action to get the bonus action shove. So it doesn't work when casting. Additionally, standing up does not count as moving, so that will not trigger extra damage from the spell.

Damn, the attack action is a really good point. I suppose I could do it with haste since it give me an extra attack action but that seems kind of involved. This may require some dm hand waiving.

However, I did catch the movement aspect and that is a bit ambiguous. The spell language requires movement but it's up to interpretation as to what that is. Do they have to not move at all virtually making them incapacitated, can they do everything but take the actual move action, or does it only trigger if they leave the square? My group has ruled taking the move action triggers it and standing up take half your movement. If somebody sees a Crawford clarification I would grudgingly like to to see it.

[PartyChef]

Why dip ranger and not fighter? If all you are going for is the medium armor and shield. Might as well get a fighting style out of it, maybe defense to compliment your tanky idea.

Yeah, one could go either way. I mostly like it for thematic purposes. But we use the revised ranger and the advantage to initiative is the main draw for me. I like that better than +1 defense but it could go either way based on personal preference.

[EdenIndustries]

Damn, the attack action is a really good point. I suppose I could do it with haste since it give me an extra attack action but that seems kind of involved. This may require some dm hand waiving.

However, I did catch the movement aspect and that is a bit ambiguous. The spell language requires movement but it's up to interpretation as to what that is. Do they have to not move at all virtually making them incapacitated, can they do everything but take the actual move action, or does it only trigger if they leave the square? My group has ruled taking the move action triggers it and standing up take half your movement. If somebody sees a Crawford clarification I would grudgingly like to to see it.

You must've missed it but I already did provide a Crawford clarification above:



Mellack is right about all this. To corroborate the last part about standing up from prone, here's Jeremy Crawford confirming:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/

Sorry to burst your bubble on that one!

[Specter]

Personally I'd rework the Big Stupid Arcane Trickster like this:

Half-Orc AT/Fighter 1
ST16, DX14, CO16, IN8, WI10, CH8

We start as Rogue until level 3, using a Rapier with strenght for sneak attack. Pick Booming Blade and anything else. As far as spells go, we will pick Disguise Self (can't be ugly all the time), Sleep and Shield.

At 4th level we multiclass Fighter for medium armor and a fighting style (Defense). That gives us 17AC on a breastplate, which is the same a max DEX rogue would have on light armor. We could use a shield too, but that would interfere with casting sometimes, so let's leave it aside.

The combat plan is to be as much of a sponge as a rogue can be, annoying foes all around. At level 5, we return to rogue and take Defensive Duelist as a feat. Then wait for Uncanny Dodge.

The trick is to use Defensive Duelist when you can block the attack with just your proficiency bonus, and use Shield when you can't or are being attacked on sll sides. If the attack can't be blocked at all (like a crit), use Uncanny Dodge to halve the damage.

At level 8 things get very interesting, because you get Evasion and access to Blur. So enemies attack you with disadvantage, and you laugh at their Fireballs. If they do roll enough to hit you even with disadvantage, then Shield up or DD. If they roll too high, Uncanny Dodge it. Add Fighter's Second Wind and Half-Orc's death ward, and this guy can outlast Barbarians when played correctly.

[Naanomi]

Variant Human - Moon Druid
8/16/16/8/14/10
For every ASI, never boost stats: always take a feat that will apply to your combat forms (GMs may vary a bit on what will work) and always be an animal/elemental. Spellslots for self-healing as an animal, and maybe some downtime utility/healing. Fun always being an animal, and eschewing spellcasting in favor of ever-increasing combat utility... make people for one blunted-out air elemental or the like later on

[PartyChef]

Wow, Thanks Edenindustries. That is too bad. I guess the build still works without use of BB though, it's just a bit disappointing from a damage perspective.

[EdenIndustries]

Yep you're welcome. It is a very cool build idea though. Too bad Shield Master and BB don't quite work as well as you were thinking, that would've been awesome!

[PartyChef]

Yep you're welcome. It is a very cool build idea though. Too bad Shield Master and BB don't quite work as well as you were thinking, that would've been awesome!

Well, If I remember haste well enough it does work with that. You just need either a friendly caster or to chose that as your 3rd level non-ench/illus spell. So it's not quite dead, just has a higher cost of use than I initially expected. The really irritating part is if you cast it ypurself you will have to chose between it and enlarge depending on the situation.

Well, that and moving away like a normal rogue. Although you are using your bonus action. I guess it requires a bit more thought. I may get have a solution or tweak to the strategy in a day or two.

In the mean time I do like the armored wizard concept a lot, as far as other counter-intuitivr builds. And I suppose the dex barb should receive an honorable mention as well.

[EdenIndustries]

Well, If I remember haste well enough it does work with that.

Yeah I think you're correct on Haste, which is still a useful bit to incorporate into the build. Too bad it relies on Haste, but even so that requirement isn't too hard to get usually.

[Naanomi]

Consider Fallen Aasimar for your BB strength rogue, for more damage for the vital one attack per round