Why do people hate fanfictions? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

DataNinja

2017-08-05, 06:29 PM

What's your deal? Leave me alone!

While it could have been phrased in perhaps a more diplomatic fashion, the point still stands. Putting forth a single image, with no elaboration, is a poor counterargument.

If the implication is that there are movies that are poorly written, with poor grammar, as a vehicle for the author's ego, then, yes, those do exist. Many people will acknowledge that. However, movies as a whole have spectacle on their side. There are movies that are designed to solely be spectacle, and people will go watch them just for that purpose.

Movies, however, tend to have at least some editorial process. And, they are much more difficult and costly to produce than fanfiction. So, the sheer quantity of poor movies will never be able to equal the quantity of fanfiction. Even if the ratios of "good" to "bad" (however you wish to define it) are the same, it is far easier to find good movies - they will generally have had some sort of marketing, while fanfiction rarely has any fanfare. The end result is that it can be incredibly difficult to weed out the good from the bad, and, after a while, it can become disheartening.

lio45

2017-08-05, 07:06 PM

S@tanicoaldo

2017-08-05, 07:10 PM

Are we even sure the premise of the thread is verified? Statistically, some of them will be bad, it's inevitable, therefore it's guaranteed that it will be possible to find people panning them online, if one's inclined to seek that.

Also, I hate fanfictions.

I think he is talking about how people joke and are generally dismissive towards fanfictions when they are mentioned.

I also think he is refereeing to fanfics as every form of non-original story, for example since the writer of Star Wars: The Force Awakens is not the creator of that universe a lot of people think it can be considered fan fiction, or the entire plot of rogue one, or almost every single comic book ever.

Also, I dislike sports.

2D8HP

2017-08-05, 07:19 PM

....Also, I hate fanfictions.

:amused:

I laughed at that.

A lot.

Why do people hate fanfictions and act as if they were bad?

I simply haven't read much that was labelled "fan-fiction", so I don't know.

Maybe link some?

If you think about almost every movie is nothing but a type of fanfiction.

:confused:

Please elaborate.

AMFV

2017-08-05, 08:03 PM

Probably the same reason people "hate" country or dislike romantic comedies. A combination of taste and being exposed mostly to bad variety.

2D8HP

2017-08-05, 08:30 PM

Probably the same reason people "hate" country or dislike romantic comedies. A combination of taste and being exposed mostly to bad variety.

That's an interesting point.

People seem much more willing to say they "hate" "county" music, than will say that they "hate" "pop", and especially "rock" music.
Admittedly the majority of the songs played on commercial "country" stations is execrable, but I find most of commercial radio awful, no matter the genre.

Sturgeon's Law (http://catb.org/jargon/html/S/Sturgeons-Law.html)

I suspect that there's good "fan-fiction", but it's hard to find.

137beth

2017-08-05, 09:03 PM

:confused:

Please elaborate.

I can't speak for anyone else, and I don't really watch many movies, but I can talk about plays, as that is my preferred medium of fiction.

The earliest plays in western literature retold stories from mythology, using characters and plot that had been passed down for centuries through oral tradition before being put on stage. Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides were all writing with characters that Homer and Hesiod had used hundreds of years earlier. So, in that sense, the first plays were "fan fiction." You could also say that modern plays which use characters from mythology are fan fiction in the same sense. For example, Jean-Paul Sartre's The Flies (1943) retells the Orestes myth, paricularly the portion that was told in Aeschylus' The Libation Bearers. Sartre added a subtextual message intended for his contemporary audience (German-occupied France during World War II), but he used the same characters that ancient Greek writers had used.

From there, how much of modern theatre is fan fiction depends on how broadly you want to define the term. Shakespeare's Hamlet does not use the names of any characters from mythology, but at its core it is also a retelling of the Orestes myth. Shakespeare also added a bunch of additional supporting characters and subplots to go along with them. Some might say that these extra characters are "fan fiction original characters" that the fan fiction writer has inserted into the source material. On the other hand, if you use a more narrow definition of fan fiction, you could say that Hamlet isn't fan fiction because it does not explicitly use characters from older works: the play is about the prince of Denmark and son of Hamlet Sr., not the prince of Argos and son of Agamemnon.

Of course, as time marches on, Hamlet has gotten its own fan fiction on stage, both in the strict using-the-same-characters-by-name sense (Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead) and in the looser sense (Elton John's and Tim Rice's The Lion King).

If someone says that they consider most movies to be fan fiction, then I'd guess that they are using a very broad definition of fan fiction, along the lines of "if a work shares core archetypes or plot elements with an older work, then it counts as fan fiction." In that case, it's pretty easy to take most works of fiction and find some elements it has in common with an older work of fiction, and thus declare the new one to be fan fiction. Voldemort is a tyrant who falls victim to a self-fulfilling prophecy, hence, by the above definition, all of Harry Potter is a fan fiction of Sophocles' Oedipus the King.

A lot of confusion inevitably comes up because people are using wildly different definitions of the phrase "fan fiction," but aren't going to specify which one they are using.

Because it's typically poorly written with poor grammar and serves only as a vehicle for the author's ego.

[
Yeah? And? What's your point exactly? That there are bad movies too? Will wonders never cease.

I'm not The Eye, and so can't speak for them. What I suspect is that they are responding to your claim that fan fiction is "typically poorly written" by pointing out a poorly written movie, with the implied question being "why is the existence of poorly written fan fiction sufficient for you to hate all fan fiction when the existence of poorly written movies isn't sufficient for you to hate all movies."
Maybe that's not actually what The Eye meant. And, of course, I don't know if you, Razade, actually do hate all fan fiction, nor do I know if you actually hate all movies.

Keltest

2017-08-05, 09:10 PM

That's an interesting point.

People seem much more willing to say they "hate" "county" music, than will say that they "hate" "pop", and especially "rock" music.
Admittedly the majority of the songs played on commercial "country" stations is execrable, but I find most of commercial radio awful, no matter the genre.

Sturgeon's Law (http://catb.org/jargon/html/S/Sturgeons-Law.html)

I suspect that there's good "fan-fiction", but it's hard to find.

I'm perfectly willing to say I hate pop. It doesn't do it for me, in a bad way. Country doesn't do it for me either, but usually in less of a way that makes me want to stab my ears, and more of a "i can completely tune this out and go on with my life" way.

Razade

2017-08-05, 09:19 PM

I'm not The Eye, and so can't speak for them. What I suspect is that they are responding to your claim that fan fiction is "typically poorly written" by pointing out a poorly written movie, with the implied question being "why is the existence of poorly written fan fiction sufficient for you to hate all fan fiction when the existence of poorly written movies isn't sufficient for you to hate all movies."
Maybe that's not actually what The Eye meant. And, of course, I don't know if you, Razade, actually do hate all fan fiction, nor do I know if you actually hate all movies.

Even if I hated all movies and all fan fiction they're not comprable mediums. One is a medium with a ton of people working on it (here talking about studio generated films) and the other is written by people in their loft apartments late at night. Not liking a movie because of bad writing isn't the same as not liking a fan fiction story for bad writing.

Sobol

2017-08-05, 09:33 PM

After reading this and "Weird Food", I'm struggling with an urge to create a sister thread titled "Why do people hate tomatoes and act as if they were bad?"

2D8HP

2017-08-05, 09:45 PM

...Of course, as time marches on, Hamlet has gotten its own fan fiction on stage, both in the strict using-the-same-characters-by-name sense (Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead)...

Oh! I saw and thoughaly enjoyed Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead (sadly on video, not in a theatre), if that's typical fan fiction, I'm all in!

...Not liking a movie because of bad writing isn't the same as not liking a fan fiction story for bad writing.

Because film is a collectivist rather than a solitary art?

Does that somehow make bad writing more palpable?

Is that like enjoying an opera because of the sets, if you don't like the music?

After reading this and "Weird Food", I'm struggling with an urge to create a sister thread titled "Why do people hate tomatoes and act as if they were bad?"

Oh I can answer this!

My Grandfather, as a youth, worked in the fields picking tomatoes, and he worked in a canning factory packing them. He hated tomatoes, and never wanted to see or smell one.

After witnessing (about a decade ago) what the conditions of the tomatoes pickers working between Gilroy and Hollister, I don't blame him!

Thufir

2017-08-06, 05:39 AM

Of course, as time marches on, Hamlet has gotten its own fan fiction on stage, both in the strict using-the-same-characters-by-name sense (Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead) and in the looser sense (Elton John's and Tim Rice's The Lion King).

Rrrghbghgbgh The Lion King is not Hamlet.

On the main topic though...

Why do people hate fanfictions and act as if they were bad?

If you think about almost every movie is nothing but a type of fanfiction.

Neither of these premises are accurate.
Firstly, People as a whole do not hate fanfictions as a whole. *Some* people hate *some* fanfiction, in some cases perhaps enough that they condemn the whole category of work (while likely disregarding the fact that by almost any definition the category includes numerous works which are well regarded and centuries old). However these cases are by no means representative of the universal opinions of all people on all fanfic.
Secondly, there are certainly some movies which could easily be classified as a type of fanfiction. However unless you are using an incredibly broad definition of the term as 137ben described, "almost every" is a vast exaggeration. And I think very few people would agree with as broad a definition a you would require to support your assertion.

Vinyadan

2017-08-06, 06:17 AM

Referring to Aeschylus and Sophocles as fan-fiction authors doesn't really make sense from my point of view. Fan fiction is a recent thing: it requires, as per its name, a fandom. And fandom was born around the times of Sherlock Holmes, and is a subculture. Sophocles and Aeschylus weren't writing for a subculture when they created their works: they aimed for a public consisting of the whole of the city of Athens, and foreigners too. Their works were relevant to the whole of Greek culture.
It's like when someone (not here) wrote that Julius Caesar wrote fan fiction when he was young, because he wrote some work about Hercules: those were not fan fictions, because they weren't aimed at a Hercules fandom. They were aimed at a certain circle of Romans who were especially interested in poetry and literary culture.

In this case, it's the same difference as between someone who enjoys the medium (TV) and a fan of a possibly transmedial series (e.g. Star Trek). They can overlap, but they aren't identical.

In Athens, it was recognized that tragedians had an easier time writing, because they were basing the plot of their work on known happenings, compared to comedy writers, who had to create their own plot, while still inserting references to the then-present world. So it was recognized that tragedians were proposing a new arrangement and focus for pre-existing material. But, even then, the Greeks considered myths as telling of historical events. This is why there were tragedies about myths (e.g. Trachiniae, Philoctetes) and what we would call historical and recent events (Persians, Conquer of Miletus). So a new mythical work was more akin to Flag of Our Fathers or Der Untergang, which tell the story of historical characters or events that had already had a number of movies about them, than to e.g. Fist of the North Star fanfiction.

An Enemy Spy

2017-08-06, 10:24 AM

Most fanfictions are written by people, often young people, who don't have much in the way of writing experience or education in the field of fiction writing, so a lot of them are awkwardly written and don't follow some of the basic rules of fiction. I went to Fanfiction.net's Just In (https://www.fanfiction.net/j/0/0/0/) page to find examples and right off the bat I found one that switches randomly between past and present tense (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12603343/1/An-Incredible-Recruit) and another where almost every paragraph is just a single line (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12603324/1/Truth-Gummy)(and also has the same problem with tenses).

Most fanfiction isn't the eye bleedingly awful stuff like My Immortal or My Inner Life, but to find gems you're going to have to wade through a lot of uninteresting and unedited stuff written by people who are still learning how to write.

And there's also the fact that some people really can't take even the lightest criticism, and will flip out if you treat their stories as anything less than the literary masterpieces they think they are.

goto124

2017-08-06, 10:35 AM

While published stuff go through editors, and at least get spelling and grammar issues ironed out.

S@tanicoaldo

2017-08-06, 12:29 PM

While published stuff go through editors, and at least get spelling and grammar issues ironed out.

But if we ignore the grammar and spelling and only compare the quality of the story, is it still that bad?

An Enemy Spy

2017-08-06, 12:42 PM

But if we ignore the grammar and spelling and only compare the quality of the story, is it still that bad?

Kind of, yeah. Most fanfiction I've seen are just one scene fluff pieces with no real story arc to speak of. Often just a couple characters having a "funny" interaction or someone feeling bad and someone else making them feel better. Or y'know, sex. I'll never forget the time in high school science class when my friend and I looked up the Draco constellation and were met with a Harry Potter bondage scene.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-08-06, 01:10 PM

But if we ignore the grammar and spelling and only compare the quality of the story, is it still that bad?

Speaking as someone that doesn't hate fanfiction but does dislike it, the main issue (to me) is author voice. I tried e.g. Harry Potter fan-fiction, and skipped sturgeon's law by first finding well-recommended pieces. But even the ones that were considered "good" didn't feel like Harry Potter.

GW

Tvtyrant

2017-08-06, 01:27 PM

I think fanfiction is great. It lets authors develop specific parts of writing without having to be good at all of it, like practicing different parts of painting or singing.

Things like pacing, plot exposition, background details and narrative structure are often hard to focus on when you are focused on characterization and worldbuilding. Not having to explain to the audience that Hermione is brainy, Ron is whiney and Harry is reckless makes it easier to look at other things.

Scarlet Knight

2017-08-06, 07:19 PM

.... Or y'know, sex. I'll never forget the time in high school science class when my friend and I looked up the Draco constellation and were met with a Harry Potter bondage scene.

Yes, I associate fanfic with sex stories. I have seen some good ones, but mostly it seems like an excuse to put 2 male friends in homoerotic plots. Wait, strike that; I forgot all the Wonder Woman stories....

Bohandas

2017-08-06, 09:28 PM

From my experience, it's not that people hate fanfictions. I know many people who thoroughly enjoy fanfiction, often more than the actual work. However, because of the lack of editorial oversight, it's often hard to weed out the good from the bad. And, I think that's where most of the vitriol comes from.

Because anyone can publish fanfiction easily via the internet, it make it easy for places to become inundated with pieces that lack... polish. And, if the majority of pieces that someone gets exposed to are the ones that aren't a terribly high quality, that can skew one's look at things.

Then why am I apparently the only person who hates mobile apps?

After reading this and "Weird Food", I'm struggling with an urge to create a sister thread titled "Why do people hate tomatoes and act as if they were bad?"

I think historically it was due to their resemblance to belladona.

From my experience, it's not that people hate fanfictions. I know many people who thoroughly enjoy fanfiction, often more than the actual work. However, because of the lack of editorial oversight, it's often hard to weed out the good from the bad. And, I think that's where most of the vitriol comes from.

Because anyone can publish fanfiction easily via the internet, it make it easy for places to become inundated with pieces that lack... polish. And, if the majority of pieces that someone gets exposed to are the ones that aren't a terribly high quality, that can skew one's look at things.

While it could have been phrased in perhaps a more diplomatic fashion, the point still stands. Putting forth a single image, with no elaboration, is a poor counterargument.

If the implication is that there are movies that are poorly written, with poor grammar, as a vehicle for the author's ego, then, yes, those do exist. Many people will acknowledge that. However, movies as a whole have spectacle on their side. There are movies that are designed to solely be spectacle, and people will go watch them just for that purpose.

Movies, however, tend to have at least some editorial process. And, they are much more difficult and costly to produce than fanfiction. So, the sheer quantity of poor movies will never be able to equal the quantity of fanfiction. Even if the ratios of "good" to "bad" (however you wish to define it) are the same, it is far easier to find good movies - they will generally have had some sort of marketing, while fanfiction rarely has any fanfare. The end result is that it can be incredibly difficult to weed out the good from the bad, and, after a while, it can become disheartening.

Commercial publication cheapens the artistic value of a work.

goto124

2017-08-07, 12:29 AM

Hey, tomatoes are really good when cooked!

Fanfics are often self-indulgent stuff. Fans come up with a situation they think is interesting, then write it down for the fun of it.

Or they're amatuer writers learning how to write. Using a pre-established setting with characters already defined for them allows them to concentrate on other factors of writing, such as coming up with interesting scenes & interactions.

Or both.

Tyndmyr

2017-08-07, 09:38 AM

If someone wishes to read actually good fanfic, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is decent. Mother of Learning is also a fun read, and might qualify as fan fic of D&D. Maybe? It's fuzzy, but can certainly be read that way.

But yeah, 99.x% of fanfic is crap.

Sure, commercial movies are sometimes crap too. We also bash those. Routinely.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-07, 10:26 AM

Speaking as someone that doesn't hate fanfiction but does dislike it, the main issue (to me) is author voice. I tried e.g. Harry Potter fan-fiction, and skipped sturgeon's law by first finding well-recommended pieces. But even the ones that were considered "good" didn't feel like Harry Potter.

GW

That is, in my opinion, a great deal of why fanfictions are underestimated, both by readers AND authors. Working with source material may look easy on paper, but it isn't necessarily so. For instance, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is probably one of the best pieces of literature I ever read, but that is both because the author is a very smart writer AND because he fleshed out relevant canon characters without actually changing them in their essence. Some are deeply disfigured beyond recognition (Harry), some were upgraded from background to actual characters (Zabini) but a whole lot of them were treated with due respect and masterfully handled in the new setting the author proposed, with no relevant changes in their attitude or character (Ron, McGonagal, Snape, Flitwick, Hermione, Neville...). Of course, the story (and tone) is completely alien to Potterverse, but he still manages to make you feel like reading a "Harry Potter" fiction; or maybe a "What if HP was a different genre?".

It is awfully difficult to properly handle characters/setting that aren't yours, mainly because you aren't the author (duh) and as such you have to first overcome what I call the "Reader's Bias". Next challenges depend on what type of work we are talking about, but basically, the "you can't write smarter than you", "you can't talk about the unknown" and the "you can't change without distortion" rules usually apply. I am of the opinion that a fanfiction is pointless if you can't recognize some of the original work inside the story, even in the form of a hint. Sure, Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes is probably a "homage" to Edgar Allan Poe's Monsieur Dupin, but at least he tried to play his story as a completely different work instead of a tie-in or "fan remake" of the original. Which ultimately gives it even more value than if it was presented as a simple fanfiction series. Because it sucks as a fanfiction. Dupin is written so much better:smallamused:

Knaight

2017-08-07, 01:39 PM

This is obviously a ridiculously oversimplified and broken model in a lot of ways, but consider quality as a quantitative aspect of a work, ranging from 1-10*. Different mediums will have different quality distributions across their works, and while it's obviously and superficially true that there's going to be at least some 1s and at least some 10s in any medium with a lot of works. There's also a set of filters for just about any medium, and while some of them are medium specific there's a few that crop up a lot. Notably:
Production Difficulty: How hard is it to make anything in the medium?
Publishing Difficulty: How hard is it to actually get something published?
Marketing Difficulty: How hard is it to get something that people actually hear about?

These screens aren't really three separate screens (it's obviously harder to produce something publishable), and feed into each other, but again this is an extremely oversimplified model intended to demonstrate a point.

At the very first step in production, someone idly wanting to make something, there's a huge number of works that would be on the 1 end of the range, and very, very few 10s. However, fan fiction is already prone to skewing low, as it's just easier to make a derivative work than an original one when working at a low standard. The production difficulty screen helps there - writing a novel or assembling a movies worth of film takes a fair amount of work, writing a short story or the typical fan fiction takes a whole lot less. The screen still helps regardless, but after screening fanfiction comes away skewed lower than most other mediums. Then there's publishing, where it's worth finely parsing genres a bit. Self published works are distinct from those published conventionally, and when people talk about short stories, or novels, or film, it's usually those published through actual publishers being talked about. Fan fiction doesn't have much of a screen here at all, and so the skew towards being bad gets yet more pronounced. Then there's marketing, and this one is huge. There's no shortage of staggeringly bad novels, or short stories, or movies, but most of them just aren't going to pop up on anyone's radar. Fan fiction has this screen, but it's a lot weaker due to the absence of a lot of institutions that push better works. To use just one example, all of the rest of these are old and have been seriously studied for a while, producing an academic canon. Said canon still has its 1s, but that screen highlights a lot of really excellent works. Fanfiction doesn't have that.

This disparity becomes really obvious when looking at works that might technically fit within the definition of Fanfiction, but that are essentially never classified as that. There's all sorts of characters that made a big cultural impact, and that show up in work after work, retelling after retelling. Just how often has King Arthur appeared? What about Sun Wukong (a.k.a. Monkey)? Yet when subjected to the more rigorous screening systems of things that aren't fanfiction, the quality skews higher, and thus these avoid the stigma fanfiction has.

*These numbers are totally arbitrary.

137beth

2017-08-07, 11:41 PM

[QUOTE=S@tanicoaldo;22266983
I also think he is refereeing to fanfics as every form of non-original story, for example since the writer of Star Wars: The Force Awakens is not the creator of that universe a lot of people think it can be considered fan fiction, [/QUOTE]

You know, I hear that claim about TFA fairly frequently from people trying to explain why they think it is bad, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought through the implications of such a claim. Star Wars, the original, was written by George Lucas. The novilization, which was actually published before the movie was released, was written by Alan Dean Foster. The Force Awakens was not written by Lucas, so it is called fan fiction by people who dislike it, often with an accompanying statement along the lines of "and fan fiction is bad, hence TFA is bad." But The Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasden, people who were not involved with the original. By the same standard used to declare TFA "fan fiction," ESB is also fan fiction! Yet, for some reason, I never hear people calling episode V fan fiction:smallamused:

goto124

2017-08-08, 03:11 AM

What about Sun Wukong (a.k.a. Monkey)? Yet when subjected to the more rigorous screening systems of things that aren't fanfiction, the quality skews higher, and thus these avoid the stigma fanfiction has.

Arguably, the screening for really old works such as Journey to the West is time itself. There probably were hundreds of fanfics (and other stories) produced in the distant past, but because they were of poor quality, no one bothered to keep track of them. So we won't find any historical records mentioned such low quality fanfics 500 years later.

At least, not any specific fanfic. One wonders if there's a historical record of someone complaining about the low quality of fanfics 500 years ago... :smallamused:

Interestingly enough, Wikipedia states:

Journey to the West is a Chinese novel published in the 16th century

Knaight

2017-08-08, 10:08 AM

Arguably, the screening for really old works such as Journey to the West is time itself. There probably were hundreds of fanfics (and other stories) produced in the distant past, but because they were of poor quality, no one bothered to keep track of them. So we won't find any historical records mentioned such low quality fanfics 500 years later.

Time is a huge screening factor, and it doesn't even need to be that old a work. This particularly stands out with music, where the music remembered from a particular decade (even as recently as 2000-2010) doesn't particularly resemble top 40 lists from every year in that decade, because they have been winnowed. JttW just also has a bunch of modern adaptations, most of which aren't considered fan fiction despite effectively fitting within the category.

FinnLassie

2017-08-08, 10:32 AM

I loved fanfiction when I was around the age of 12 to 16. Why? Because I felt like it filled some holes in different stories I read. This of course meant that I searched for specific fanfics that suited my point of view and wants for series... for example at one point I gorged on Hermione x Draco fanfics, at other times Cho Chang hatefiction. Yeah. I hated her when I was 12. I wrote some short pieces, some canon and some not, mostly surrounding the Harry Potter books and films.

Currently I feel like I don't need those fullfilments. I just don't feel the need to go and fill in holes, like pairings I'd rather see happening. I do not condemn the fanfiction culture, I only condemn obsessive and toxic fandoms that can't get their **** together. Honestly, I can't stand it when adults, sometimes way past their 30s, go around bashing the "new generation" of fanfic writers. Let the kids be. ... right, maybe I spend too much time on Tumblr at times.

Now that I think of it, I made fanfiction before I even knew what it was. I drew "comics" where I was one of the Sailor Senshi, or made up new dance coreographies for TLC and Janet Jackson, making them cameo with each other. Fanfics are fun. Writing Mary Sue level fanfics was hella fun, no matter the backlash and my rageposts at the haters!

Currently the only fanfic I like is Harry Potter Becomes A Communist. It's sorta dying, but holy sweet Jesus it's worth the read, at least the first 20ish chapters I'd say. It's a complete ****show and falls to the same genre as My Immortal (which I am still yet to read). They're short, so no worries about the chapter count.

Bohandas

2017-08-08, 10:48 AM

2D8HP

2017-08-08, 11:01 AM

Currently the only fanfic I like is Harry Potter Becomes A Communist. It's sorta dying, but holy sweet Jesus it's worth the read, at least the first 20ish chapters

Thanks to your recommendation, I just the first three chapters of Harry Potter Becomes A Communist.

Only those with FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS will not find it hilarious.

MAGIC POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

:amused:

FinnLassie

2017-08-08, 11:09 AM

Thanks to your recommendation, I just the first three chapters of Harry Potter Becomes A Communist.

Only those with FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS will not find it hilarious.

MAGIC POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

:amused:

Your amusedness makes me think you are part of the upper class. Only they would have such an attitude towards the struggles of the working class! What are you, sympathising the bourgeoise with Hermione?

kyoryu

2017-08-08, 11:09 AM

Chen

2017-08-08, 11:33 AM

Again, what I want to know is why, if the problem is that the good is innundated by the bad, there isn't similar hatred and ill-will towards mobile apps, which have exactly the same thing going on. Did you know that there are no less than three entirely fake (like not even any resemblance) ports of Notepad++ on Google Play and two of them are clearly somebody else reuploading the first fake port. It's way easier to find a readable fanfiction than a working app, and yet everyone loves mobile software and hates fanfiction

Fan fiction is part of a larger whole. It almost necessarily is built off the success and/or popularity of an existing world/universe/storyline. Apps are generally standalone. There's tons of garbage apps out there but you tend to narrow the focus when you're looking for one and you tend to only need 1 of a particular type of app (aside games I guess). I very much disagree about the "way easier to find a readable fanfiction than a working app" statement. I'll grant I use the Apple store for my iphone and ipad but I've never had trouble finding an app for some function I need (map, calculator, instant messenger, stud finder etc). Video games are an exception I'd say but finding a good video game app vs a good video game for my PC is a pretty similar situation so I can't say that's an app issue.

BWR

2017-08-08, 12:07 PM

If someone wishes to read actually good fanfic, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is decent.

The world building is significantly better than Rowling's (not hard to do, really) but the author is not quite as clever as he thinks he is and spends way too much time both as himself and as RHarry, patting himself on the back for being so clever and rational.

The probably defunct Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (two complete stories and an abandoned third) is a comedy about a D&D 3.5 munchkin come to Potterverse. Hilarity ensues.
Sailor Hellblazer was surprisingly amusing, where everyone's favorite chain smoking, foul language-using, cynical and certain-death-to-his-friends magician becomes a Sailor Scout. It managed to be mostly faithful to both universes.

I got into fanfics with SW vs ST. Some of them were decent, most were crappy and just the author's wanking whichever side they wanted to win. After a period of reading a ton of them I stuck with HPatN20 until it died and haven't been particularly interested in others.

Telonius

2017-08-08, 12:25 PM

Vinyadan

2017-08-08, 01:25 PM

Just for a bit of historical context, versions of this argument have been going on since at least the early 1600s (and probably long before that). Part 1 of Miguel de Cervantes' Don Quixote was so famous that it inspired a fanfic by somebody writing under the pen name of Alonso Fernández de Avellaneda. I've never read it myself, but it was apparently so terrible that Cervantes himself addressed it in Part 2 of Don Quixote.

Tolkien's Letter 292

To Joy Hill, Allen & Unwin

[Tolkien had been sent details of a proposed 'sequel' to The Lord of the Rings that a 'fan' was going to write
himself.]

12 December 1966 | 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford

Dear Miss Hill,

I send you the enclosed impertinent contribution to my troubles. I do not know what the legal
position is, I suppose that since one cannot claim property in inventing proper names, that there is
no legal obstacle to this young ass publishing his sequel, if he could find any publisher, either
respectable or disreputable, who would accept such tripe.

I have merely informed him that I have forwarded his letter and samples to you. I think that a
suitable letter from Allen & Unwin might be more effective than one from me. I once had a similar
proposal, couched in the most obsequious terms, from a young woman, and when I replied in the
negative, I received a most vituperative letter.

With best wishes,

Yours sincerely,

J. R. R. Tolkien.

Tyndmyr

2017-08-08, 03:59 PM

The world building is significantly better than Rowling's (not hard to do, really) but the author is not quite as clever as he thinks he is and spends way too much time both as himself and as RHarry, patting himself on the back for being so clever and rational.

The probably defunct Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (two complete stories and an abandoned third) is a comedy about a D&D 3.5 munchkin come to Potterverse. Hilarity ensues.
Sailor Hellblazer was surprisingly amusing, where everyone's favorite chain smoking, foul language-using, cynical and certain-death-to-his-friends magician becomes a Sailor Scout. It managed to be mostly faithful to both universes.

I got into fanfics with SW vs ST. Some of them were decent, most were crappy and just the author's wanking whichever side they wanted to win. After a period of reading a ton of them I stuck with HPatN20 until it died and haven't been particularly interested in others.

I do agree that HPMoR is a bit self congratulatory, to be sure. Unfortunately, super common in fanfic. This Nat 20 concept sounds amusing, I'll have to investigate it.

HandofShadows

2017-08-08, 04:34 PM

As a fanfic writer (NOT saying which stories, but I doubt you heard of them and it sure as hell is not Harry Potter) I think it's good practice, IF you are critical of your work and seek to learn from it. In my own stories I tried to very hard to keep the tone of the source material and looked to building onto the story universe. (I had people tell me that I did so, I guess I succeeded on some level, but I am sure I could do better now.)

A lot of stories I have seen instead try to rewrite the source material in some way or add on to something that's done and over with (As demonstrated by the LOTR "sequel". I mean why even THINK of doing something like that? :smallconfused: ). Most writers are frankly not nearly good enough to do this. The result is a lot of fanfics (or maybe a better term would be fanwanks) that does not work.

Sajiri

2017-08-08, 05:28 PM

I dont necessarily hate fanfiction, but I havent seen many good ones. My issues with fanfiction are, for one, there's a specific style of writing that seems pervasive among it regardless of which fandom the individual story is from. Not every fanfic writer does it of course, but I swear its like many people who write it, often read it too, so they think its just the way it should be done. It's sort of like a text version of anime, where they have to write in nonsense actions that wouldnt normally be taken notice of (like blinking) or silly things like sweatdropping as an action.

Typically the characters seem to never be faithful to their official personalities, and if there are OCs inserted they are very clearly just wish fulfillment fantasies for the author. However, I can and do greatly enjoy when there is fanfiction for a setting where its easy for it to be an entirely original cast that doesnt use the characters from whatever the established media is, such as pokemon.

I also seriously hate when fanfic writers pair characters up together, because it's never been convincing. It always seems to be the weirdest couples together, and its usually two characters who officially hate each other. Also, everyone is gay more often than not. I have absolutely nothing against gay people or characters, but when I see it in fanfiction it feels incredibly forced and whoever the two characters are being paired up usually follows the formula of one being either a cold hearted loner, a flirty ladies man, or a psycho weirdo, and the other suddenly becomes more feminine than any real woman I've ever met. And it's always the enemies, because hating each other, hurling verbal or physical abuse at each other, and competing against each other means you are secretly in love.

I used to read fanfiction quite a lot in my early high school years, then I kind of grew out of it, but sometimes when Im bored I go looking some up. Its very rare I find something worthwhile, but then the majority of suggestions I've had for it come from my fanfiction-writing best friend who is guilty of all the things I said I dislike, so maybe I need to look elsewhere.

BWR

2017-08-08, 11:48 PM

I do agree that HPMoR is a bit self congratulatory, to be sure. Unfortunately, super common in fanfic. This Nat 20 concept sounds amusing, I'll have to investigate it.

It's a bit rough around the edges to start with but quickly settles in a good groove.

Florian

2017-08-09, 08:02 AM

I´m mainly annoyed by fandom and fanfiction is an outgrowth of this. I have my hobbies and I love them, but I don´t elevate them to that point of importance.

NontheistCleric

2017-08-09, 09:19 AM

I´m mainly annoyed by fandom

Why, though?

FinnLassie

2017-08-09, 09:32 AM

Why, though?

From at least my experience, fandoms often become obnoxious pools full of fighting and tons of false acclaims, sometimes even death threats... for example, the Dream Daddy simulator genderbend fanart that someone made.

Officer Joy

2017-08-09, 09:35 AM

I don't hate it in theory. But as I haven't really looked for it I haven't really read a lot of it.

But TVTropes has sold me at least on one. Dungeon keeper Amy. A sailer gets stuck in the DK universe. And it is a pretty good read. But kind of dying with only one Decent lenght Chapter every few months.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-09, 11:09 AM

The world building is significantly better than Rowling's (not hard to do, really) but the author is quite as clever as he thinks he is and spends way too much time both as himself and as RHarry, patting himself on the back for being so clever and rational.
While I somewhat agree with you, it's not so uncommon for well-respected writers that also deal with "intellectual" literature. Either because they are somewhat pedantic (but reader's bias would make them sound worse than they truly show on paper) or because that's just how fiction works. Also, it's both a piece of fiction as much as pop-science, since he is literally showing part of his work through the voice of Harry. I mean, it would be unfair to blame that on him since that's the whole purpose of the fic. I also happen to dislike certain authors (even well-respected authors) for similar reasons, so I think it's more a question of taste more than its artistic value.

BWR

2017-08-09, 11:28 AM

While I somewhat agree with you, it's not so uncommon for well-respected writers that also deal with "intellectual" literature. Either because they are somewhat pedantic (but reader's bias would make them sound worse than they truly show on paper) or because that's just how fiction works. Also, it's both a piece of fiction as much as pop-science, since he is literally showing part of his work through the voice of Harry. I mean, it would be unfair to blame that on him since that's the whole purpose of the fic. I also happen to dislike certain authors (even well-respected authors) for similar reasons, so I think it's more a question of taste more than its artistic value.

Um, I'm not quite sure what your point is. That he isn't a bit self-congratualtory in HPMoR? Or that he is but intended to be? Either way I found that part annoying.
What's the difference between taste and artistic value?
Honest question.

ImperatorV

2017-08-09, 12:31 PM

So, I haven't actually read much of this thread yet, but I thought I'd weigh in on the topic of fanfiction in general. I'm someone who reads a lot of fanfiction (as in, tens of millions of words by this point), and I like to think I have some insights into the medium.

First, a lot of fanfiction is poorly written drivel. No one disputes this, even people who love fanfiction like myself. It takes a lot of experience and skill to be able to tell if a story will be any good before starting it.

Second, a lot of fanfiction is unfinished. A fraction of the stories I read have a clear ending, and abandoned or on hiatus fics are the norm rather then the exception. This can be very off-putting to people who are used to having complete stories.

Third, a lot of fanfiction is unedited. Even "good" fanfiction has grammatical errors and occasional wrong tense. This is not true for the very best, top of the line stuff which I'll get to talking about later.

Fourth, most fanfiction relies on the reader being very familiar with the source material. Some writers are good enough to work in everything the reader will need without info dumps, but most either just assume readers already know the material or do boring re-hashes. This greatly lowers the potential audience of the medium.

Fifth, most fanfiction is written for fanfic authors and fans only. Authors often cater to people who read and write fanfics a lot, and don't consider newcomers. This can be detrimental to the average viewer's ability to enjoy the story.

Sixth, fanfiction is derivative. It has to be. That doesn't mean it can't be unique and interesting, but many fanfics fall into the trap of basically being more of the source material, but not as well edited.

However, you will occasionally find a fanfic that transcends these flaws. The classic example, in my mind, is Game Theory, (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7485060/1/Game_Theory) a Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha fanfic. It's well written, a complete story (with a complete sequel at that), and lacking in errors. Some knowledge of the first season of MGLN is helpful for fully understanding the first two chapters, but after that is not required at all. Many people consider Game Theory's plot, characterization, and worldbuilding to be superior to the original, in fact. Finally, the fic is very accessible to people who haven't read much fanfic before, and provides a unique spin and very different tone and plot to the original.

These kind of works are rare, and I've read dozens of fics that honestly weren't worth my time for each gem I've found. However, I honestly consider Game Theory to be one of the best works of fiction I've read, period, and flat out better written then almost all of the professional modern fiction I've read. I often consider looking for the best fanfiction to be something like a treasure hunt, searching through so much garbage and muck for something special and worthwhile. After doing this for a while you'll start to get good at finding the really well-written stuff, and start to enjoy the things that were written primarily for frequent fanfic readers and writers.

It's not for everybody. It's worth it to me though. That's what's really important in the end. The people who "hate" fanfic really just aren't the type to enjoy it.

solidork

2017-08-09, 12:48 PM

It's not for everybody. It's worth it to me though. That's what's really important in the end. The people who "hate" fanfic really just aren't the type to enjoy it.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Even the not very good stuff can be fun, sometimes. Everyone is responsible for curating their own experiences, and everyone sets their own expectations.

goto124

2017-08-09, 12:59 PM

Fifth, most fanfiction is written for fanfic authors and fans only. Authors often cater to people who read and write fanfics a lot, and don't consider newcomers. This can be detrimental to the average viewer's ability to enjoy the story.

This makes me curious. What makes a fanfic more enjoyable to a fanfic regular than a newcomer? The use and play on tropes that occur frequently in fanfics, like how Undertale is meant for people who play a lot of RPGs?

ImperatorV

2017-08-09, 01:23 PM

This makes me curious. What makes a fanfic more enjoyable to a fanfic regular than a newcomer? The use and play on tropes that occur frequently in fanfics, like how Undertale is meant for people who play a lot of RPGs?

A lot of that, yes. Also making references to other popular fanfics in the same fandom, making decisions on how to write things on the assumption that the reader is familiar with popular theories and opinions in the fanfiction community for that work or just in general, or just framing the premise and story in ways that make sense to someone familiar with fanfiction, but that doesn't work so well to an outsider. It's not uncommon for Worm fanfics, for example, to assume that not only is the reader familiar with the source material, but also with fan interpretations of characters and meta-knowledge from comments the author has made outside of the original story itself about character's power interactions, mechanics, and backrounds. To someone not familiar with all of this, some characters and story elements could seem to come out of nowhere and not be adequately explained.

Also, some fanfics are written in response to other fanfics, either to disagree or present a counterpoint to a character interpretation, or because the author was inspired by the first fanfic and writes a spin-off or something with a similar premise but different execution. This can result in some elements being copied over without thoroughly explaining or justifying them.

kyoryu

2017-08-09, 01:49 PM

Another point to consider is: What do people look for in fiction? Fan fiction often serves specific needs that are not widely held (more information on a particular world, particular shippings, etc.) If you *crave* more Harry Potter, then getting that is frankly more important than the overall quality.

A new series in a new world doesn't satisfy that, and so doesn't have that inbuilt audience, and has to live or die on other merits. But if you really just want more Harry Potter, fan fiction can be the firehose to drink from, especially if that's more important than the quality.

Edit: To clarify, by "quality", I mean "things satisfying the needs of a broader audience". Quality as an objective measure doesn't exist - it can only really be considered in the context of people looking to fulfill certain needs.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-09, 02:32 PM

Um, I'm not quite sure what your point is. That he isn't a bit self-congratualtory in HPMoR? Or that he is but intended to be? Either way I found that part annoying.
What's the difference between taste and artistic value?
Honest question.
I meant that he is self-congratulatory, but that fact doesn't necessarily affect the quality of his work. There are some authors that I don't like because they seem to rejoice on their intellectual abilities a little too much. But I am still able to recognize whether they are good writers, nevertheless. It's a flaw that doesn't necessarily affect their writing skills; it's just their personality transpiring through the paper. Sometimes that personality doesn't bother me as much. In HPMOR I didn't mind that aspect from the author, even tho I noticed this aspect of him through the text. It is much more evident once you read his blog too.

Anyway, in my personal experience I found many pieces of art with gigantic artistic value that I happen to don't like in the least. Books, music, paint, everything. Taste is personal, and it's tied to a lot of personal experiences after all. But the ability to recognize artistic value is more about how much knowledge you have about a subject. That's why people can enjoy bad movies even tho they are fully aware of their poor crafting. It's not always the case that it's "so-bad-its-good"; it can happen with mediocre art too. I enjoy a lot of mediocre, but I don't always like everything that I know is excellent, just for its excellency. Personal taste is the deciding factor about whether I will like it or not. Then again, some people confuse personal taste with excellency. I am totally not one of those.

Xyril

2017-08-10, 01:53 AM

That is, in my opinion, a great deal of why fanfictions are underestimated, both by readers AND authors. Working with source material may look easy on paper, but it isn't necessarily so.

Actually, this is why I think that fan fictions are (on the aggregate) judged precisely correctly: Working with source material is pretty easy, it's doing it well that takes a bit of skill and effort. Most fan fictions seem to be written by folks who treat the whole exercise as if it were easy, or by folks who do in fact recognize the difficulty of the task but nonetheless lack the ability to do so.

Used poorly by an unskilled writer, source material is a crutch--it saves you the trouble of having to construct setting and character in your mind, and allows you to get away with failing to communicate key elements because you and the intended audience will have the benefit of substantial shared information.

Used effectively by a skilled writer who cares about the quality of his work, and actually understands what good work is, source material is a cage--you are constrained by the author's depictions of the setting and the characterization of important figures, and also by the audience's willingness to go along with any departures from the norms or the tone of the original work.

The best fanfiction writers--and even many professional writers--are the ones who not only recognize the constraints of the cage, but also use it as a means to showcase their skills. The demonstrate their mastery of the characters by putting them in new circumstances and having them react consistently with their personalities in the source material. Or they might give a known character an entirely different personality from the source material and then show us how this "real" personality is nonetheless consistent with their actions and reputation in the source work. Or they could create a story that is deliberately incongruous with the conventions of the original work, and in that incongruity create something that is not only an interesting work in itself, but also changes the way we view the source material.

Misereor

2017-08-10, 06:06 AM

Why do people hate fanfictions and act as if they were bad?

Let me tell you about my favorite character!!!

A.A.King

2017-08-10, 07:32 AM

Personally I find "a lot of it is trash" already quite a good reason to hate something (things might get confussing for fans of 'trash metal' I suppose but for most everything else it's a good starting point). Now it's perfectly fine to keep Sturgeon's Law in mind when trying out new things, because ninety percent of everything is trash so you shouldn't write something of after having tried it only once, but when people say "most fan fiction is trash" they mean above and beyond the normal 9 to 10 ratio. It means 99% or even 99,9% or maybe 99,99% or well, you get the point. At some point it is safe to say that the rare exceptions are no longer worth the endavour. I may have hit a beautiful hole-in-one once but my inability to get even remotetly close to par on every other occasion ment I had fo give up on my dream of a professional Golf Career.

It is not just that a lot of it is bad (and not jist bad as in 'badly written' but bad as in blatant wish fullfiment with a lot of self inserts and bad romance.. and don't even get me started on 'slashfiction') but it is more so that it just seems so entirely pointless:

However, you will occasionally find a fanfic that transcends these flaws. The classic example, in my mind, is Game Theory, (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7485060/1/Game_Theory) a Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha fanfic. It's well written, a complete story (with a complete sequel at that), and lacking in errors. Some knowledge of the first season of MGLN is helpful for fully understanding the first two chapters, but after that is not required at all. Many people consider Game Theory's plot, characterization, and worldbuilding to be superior to the original, in fact. Finally, the fic is very accessible to people who haven't read much fanfic before, and provides a unique spin and very different tone and plot to the original.

Now I'm sure Game Theory is as good as you say it is (atleast, to anyone who is fan of the Magical Girl subgenre of fiction) but the bolded parts just make me ask one simple question: Why is it written as a Fan Fiction?

If the tone is different from the original, why not just be original yourself. The Author clearly shows that he can think up his own plot and apparently his was better than the original. Not only that, you say he did a better job at worldbuilding and was even better at characterization. So why not use those skills on his own world and his own characters? The Magical Girl subgenre is already quite derivative so he could easily goten away with boring some traits from the show that inspired him while still creating something that was uniquely his own. When the best of fan fiction stories are being sold as better or very different from the original, why are those writers not just being originall? You can even be quite succesfull with a story that started as a fan fiction before being sold as its own thing (just ask E.L. James)

This is especially true for those (apparently) good fan fictions which ignore or 'disfigure' one of or even the main character of the story they are supposed to be a fan of. If you are a fan of a story and it inspires you to write but you choose to write in an entirely different style and genre and you didn't really like the main character and so you tone down his role and you chose to put a lot of your focus on background characters (which nobody knew anything about really so they might as well just be original characters) then why not just ditch everything else I write your own work? At that point even a 'gem' looks bad to me because now it is a decent-to-good writee hiding behind someone else his characters and world (while having the audacity to feel you can improve things).

Mikemical

2017-08-10, 08:00 AM

Why do people hate fanfictions and act as if they were bad?

If you think about it almost every movie is nothing but a type of fanfiction.

People hate bad fanfiction, and the people who read and write fanfiction tend to be in the majority rather obnoxious and self-important. I don't read fanfiction. Not because I hate it, but because I have so much more better things to do than sit down to read an alternative version of Harry Potter where everyone is a Vampire and it's named after certain Evanesence song.

Following your logic, any form of media is fanfiction. Hell, even the Bible could be considered fanfiction by that logic.

It's not. It's a recopilation of stories told through time for thousands of years of human history. The difference between media and fanfiction is that the people who make movies, books, comics, etc, related to a certain intellectual property usually have the pertinent rights to do so, whereas fan-made stuff is usually done without the author's knowledge, consent or approval.

What's your deal? Leave me alone!

You posted an image of a bad movie without providing a compelling argument and he pointed that out for you?

This is why I stalk your threads. They derail into comedy gold, usually not in the same page though.

Also, I hate sports.

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-10, 08:36 AM

Even if I hated all movies and all fan fiction they're not comprable mediums. One is a medium with a ton of people working on it (here talking about studio generated films) and the other is written by people in their loft apartments late at night. Not liking a movie because of bad writing isn't the same as not liking a fan fiction story for bad writing.
Yes. The bad movie is a much more staggering waste of finite resources.

Referring to Aeschylus and Sophocles as fan-fiction authors doesn't really make sense from my point of view. Fan fiction is a recent thing: it requires, as per its name, a fandom. And fandom was born around the times of Sherlock Holmes, and is a subculture. Sophocles and Aeschylus weren't writing for a subculture when they created their works: they aimed for a public consisting of the whole of the city of Athens, and foreigners too. Their works were relevant to the whole of Greek culture.
Eh, that strikes me as a facile argument. You can argue that was a 'subculture' of european or mediterranean civilisation, but that's not really the important point. The question is whether crowd-sourcing the generation of narratives based on, or derived from, an earlier corpus can give you good results.

A think a more recent example that folks are overlooking here is superhero stories. Same characters, but in different stories with separate continuities and different authors, over and over again. It happened for nakedly mercenary reasons, and there are a lot of distasteful side-effects, but it's fair to say the overwhelming majority of superhero stories written are functionally fan-fiction by now- to the extent that the 'canonical' versions most embedded in the public consciousness may only loosely resemble their original incarnations.

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-10, 08:47 AM

It's not. It's a recopilation of stories told through time for thousands of years of human history. The difference between media and fanfiction is that the people who make movies, books, comics, etc, related to a certain intellectual property usually have the pertinent rights to do so, whereas fan-made stuff is usually done without the author's knowledge, consent or approval.
I can guarantee you that St. Peter and St. Paul would have had vigorous disagreements about how the new testament should be written.

Also, going back to superhero stories, in many cases creative rights were effectively wrenched from the original authors by the most thuggish methods imaginable. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it didn't inherently prevent subsequent authors from taking their work in other directions and being well-received for it.

Florian

2017-08-10, 11:04 AM

Eh, that strikes me as a facile argument. You can argue that was a 'subculture' of european or mediterranean civilisation, but that's not really the important point. The question is whether crowd-sourcing the generation of narratives based on, or derived from, an earlier corpus can give you good results.

No, it really is about fandom. You must be a fan of something, feel empathy or fascination for it, to feel the need to contribute to it (and other fans) in the first place.

So I wouldn't call it "crowd-sourcing", as it´s primarily based on how the fan-author interacts with the source material, the pride of sharing and potential adoration by other fans.

The Extinguisher

2017-08-10, 12:49 PM

AMFV

2017-08-10, 01:12 PM

The uncomfortable answer is that fanfiction was, (and still is really) a medium with primarily women authors. Which is people can be pretty unforgiving with mistakes in fanfiction then in other media (see: how bad movies don't cause people to hate all movies, also self inserts which are everywhere in media but get a lot of hate in fanfiction)

This is so far wrong, that I can't even accurately go into how wrong you are here. First many popular works of Fanfiction that have been discussed are NOT written by female authors. Second, the stereotype of a fanfiction author in the view of the general public is not that of a woman but of a neckbeard. Third, there are plenty of genres of genre fiction which are primarily full of women authors that do not receive that same degree of distaste that you have in fanfiction.

The reasons fanfiction has a dislike is because:

A.) A lot of it is bad, people have talked about this, it's frequently bad. There isn't much oversight.

B.) It's derivative, and some people will see that as worse inherently.

C.) It's considered an "acceptable" target socially. It's the same thing as when you say "I don't like Country music," in many places that's socially acceptable to say, whereas "I don't like pop" or "I don't like Rock" would be less so.

The Extinguisher

2017-08-10, 04:05 PM

This is so far wrong, that I can't even accurately go into how wrong you are here. First many popular works of Fanfiction that have been discussed are NOT written by female authors. Second, the stereotype of a fanfiction author in the view of the general public is not that of a woman but of a neckbeard. Third, there are plenty of genres of genre fiction which are primarily full of women authors that do not receive that same degree of distaste that you have in fanfiction.

The reasons fanfiction has a dislike is because:

A.) A lot of it is bad, people have talked about this, it's frequently bad. There isn't much oversight.

B.) It's derivative, and some people will see that as worse inherently.

C.) It's considered an "acceptable" target socially. It's the same thing as when you say "I don't like Country music," in many places that's socially acceptable to say, whereas "I don't like pop" or "I don't like Rock" would be less so.

I have no idea where you are that the view of fanfiction authors is that of a neckbeard. Fandom in general maybe (and even then I remain very skeptical. The neckbeard association is more towards the people who deride fanfiction) but the stereotypical fanfiction author is the thirteen year old girl who doesnt know anything about sex writing sex scenes. (example here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostFanficWritersAreGirls) not that tv tropes is a source or anything but it documents repeated instances of popular culture which is good enough when talking about stereotypes). Similarly, I would like to know what genre fictions are primarily women authored that aren't heavily disliked. Cause off the top of my head the biggest one I can think of is romance fiction which absolutely 100% is seen as "bad literature" and suffers worse than fanfiction in that sense. Please elaborate.
And yes, most of the popular fanfiction being discussed are written by men. Its almost that men who write in women dominated fields are raised higher than their women peers. Hmm i wonder why?

Also:
A) lots of things are very bad, see above: mobile apps. They are very frequently bad with no oversight and no one has written off the mobile app business.
B) its just as derivative as everything else, unless you also hate it when theaters put on retellings of shakespeare plays
C) you do know its considered acceptable because its a women dominated field? like thats the reason.

Its important to look at reasons why media is considered an acceptable target because they often betray our societies prejudices. country music is an interesting case because its modern implementation differs greatly from its historical roots. country music was the music of poor people (it grew out of folk and blues in appalachia). I'll leave it to you to figure out why rap music is almost always included with country when people talk about music they dont like.

All of the criticism laid before fanfiction is valid criticism. Its true of the format, but its certainly not unique to fanfiction or even writing in general. We give other media a pass where we fail fanfiction because of the cultural association behind its historical and modern day usage.

heres someone who says this better than me (https://www.bustle.com/p/why-fan-fiction-shaming-is-a-feminist-issue-36594)

Xyril

2017-08-10, 04:20 PM

B) its just as derivative as everything else, unless you also hate it when theaters put on retellings of shakespeare plays

I agree with much of what you say, but I find this a bit unconvincing. I think all fiction has the same potential to be derivative, and the same potential to be fresh and novel. However, it seems hard to dispute that fan fiction--like the retelling of Shakespeare or yet another remake of something we loved from the 80's--starts off with a much stronger tendency to be derivative, and it takes quite a bit of deliberate effort from a skilled artist to avoid this pitfall. One additional advantage of "everything else" over fan fiction is that the professional "everything else" tends to have quality control, obviously, but even if you try to take Sturgeon's law out of the equation by looking at more amateur works from other genres, you still see a stark difference. For example, if you ever visit one of those sites where aspiring screenwriters post their work (or went to a school that tends to convince a disproportionate number of people that such a career is viable), you will see a lot of terrible, derivative crap, but you will also see a lot more surprisingly original crap that is terrible for entirely different reasons.

The Extinguisher

2017-08-10, 04:29 PM

That's a fair point, and I guess it depends on how you differentiate between original and derivative in media, which is its own larger issue.

Besides originality is vastly overrated.

AMFV

2017-08-10, 05:42 PM

I have no idea where you are that the view of fanfiction authors is that of a neckbeard. Fandom in general maybe (and even then I remain very skeptical. The neckbeard association is more towards the people who deride fanfiction) but the stereotypical fanfiction author is the thirteen year old girl who doesnt know anything about sex writing sex scenes.

That stereotype holds true only in people who are more familiar with the medium. In general parlance I think you'd see the other way. I know this because I asked my mother, who is not super into fanfiction. I mean certainly you might see a different view from people who, say, peruse TV Tropes, but I don't think that's going to be the common view.

Also it's worth noting that in that case you have to prove that it'd be the bias against women that's the real reason and not a bias against teenagers. Which I think is far more likely.

(example here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostFanficWritersAreGirls) not that tv tropes is a source or anything but it documents repeated instances of popular culture which is good enough when talking about stereotypes). Similarly, I would like to know what genre fictions are primarily women authored that aren't heavily disliked. Cause off the top of my head the biggest one I can think of is romance fiction which absolutely 100% is seen as "bad literature" and suffers worse than fanfiction in that sense. Please elaborate.

I don't think that "romance fiction" is always seen as bad literature depending on who you're talking to. Poetry is a good example at least in the modern of a genre that is fairly respected and largely authored by women. Diary/confessional writing is largely authored by women, and is often VERY highly respected in literary circles. Slice-of-life works are often (more often I would wager) written by women, and are often fairly well respected, although there is some overlap with the aforementioned diary/confessional type works.

And yes, most of the popular fanfiction being discussed are written by men. Its almost that men who write in women dominated fields are raised higher than their women peers. Hmm i wonder why?

In this case, we can point the answer squarely to the quality of the work. The most popular work of fanfiction (or at least what was originally fanfiction) was authored by a woman. So I don't think your argument holds water here, much less any number of shades of grey.

Also:
A) lots of things are very bad, see above: mobile apps. They are very frequently bad with no oversight and no one has written off the mobile app business.

Again 50 shades shows that the corporate publishing market has no problems exploiting popular fanfiction. The same as with mobile apps. Many people talk about how many mobile apps are "bad", but they'll sure as crap exploit them when they're popular. So again this doesn't actually hold water. Companies are motivated by profit, a fanfiction work, by a female author is the most successful breakout example of fanfiction, so doesn't really hold water.

B) its just as derivative as everything else, unless you also hate it when theaters put on retellings of shakespeare plays

If the retellings were as bad as many works of fanfiction were, I would hate that. Many of them are quite bad, and I do dislike that. When they're good I thoroughly enjoy them. I suspect that if I read more fanfiction, enough to find the good stuff, I would feel similarly about taht.

C) you do know its considered acceptable because its a women dominated field? like thats the reason.

Country music is absofrickinglutely not a female dominated field and it's an acceptable target. Professional Wrestling is absofrickinglutely not a female dominated field and it's an acceptable target. Cheesy action cartoons are also not a female dominated field and they're considered acceptable targets.

Its important to look at reasons why media is considered an acceptable target because they often betray our societies prejudices. country music is an interesting case because its modern implementation differs greatly from its historical roots. country music was the music of poor people (it grew out of folk and blues in appalachia). I'll leave it to you to figure out why rap music is almost always included with country when people talk about music they dont like.

Country music still is the music of the working class. Most working class folks I know listen to country, and I'll wager I know more of them than most people here. Although some of that is pretty regional.

All of the criticism laid before fanfiction is valid criticism. Its true of the format, but its certainly not unique to fanfiction or even writing in general. We give other media a pass where we fail fanfiction because of the cultural association behind its historical and modern day usage.

heres someone who says this better than me (https://www.bustle.com/p/why-fan-fiction-shaming-is-a-feminist-issue-36594)

I think that the reason that we're more quick to attack fanfiction is likely because it's a field that's focused on by teenagers. Because it produces more volume of bad works, and because it's new. New fields attract more and worse criticism. Also of note, if TV Tropes isn't a source Bustle is triply not a source.

The Extinguisher

2017-08-10, 06:57 PM

I don't think that "romance fiction" is always seen as bad literature depending on who you're talking to. Poetry is a good example at least in the modern of a genre that is fairly respected and largely authored by women. Diary/confessional writing is largely authored by women, and is often VERY highly respected in literary circles. Slice-of-life works are often (more often I would wager) written by women, and are often fairly well respected, although there is some overlap with the aforementioned diary/confessional type works.

I really dont have time to go over the rest of your post but I do want to address this here cause I think this keys in on a fundamental issue. The fact that you dont think there is significant bias against romance fiction as literary works is hugely telling. Romance is often seen as trashy, as a joke. We laugh at the shirtless men on the cover and at the "lonely, middle aged women" who read them. Romance novels are seen as the lowest of the low of literary works.
I'm also talking about public perception, since that is what this whole discussion is about. And I don't see much positive public perception for slice of life and diary works. (in fact, to take an example from another medium with a lot of slice of life stories written by women, anime, they are widely hated in western anime communities).

And finally, I would challenge you assertions that poetry is primarily authored by women. According Vida (http://www.vidaweb.org/category/the-count/), Poetry (the magazine) hasn't had a majority women authors since they started tracking, only getting close but under parity. I dont know enough about the other publications to look at how they compare genre wise but I think its safe to assume that Poetry only publishes poetry. In addition, some quick research of my own from best poet lists from the first page at google had an average of 17% women poets, and that would have been 12% if it wasn't for a top ten that was specificly contemporary poets and aiming to be diverse.
In addition, ranker.com's best poet ranking (http://www.ranker.com/list/best-poets/ranker-books) which is entirely user generated has the first women show up at #12 (emily dickenson) and doesn't have another until #58 (sappho).
Poetry is very much a male dominated field, at least that's its public perception which is why its not derided like fanfiction.
(and it's also a great counter example to "a lot of fanfiction is bad". There's a lot of very bad poetry posted on the internet, and people dont use those bad poems to write off the whole art form)

Edit: I feel the need to clarify that I wasnt using bustle as a source, but as an editorial to elaborate my point. I have no idea what the site is, but I saw the article and thought it was a good read.

AMFV

2017-08-10, 07:56 PM

I really dont have time to go over the rest of your post but I do want to address this here cause I think this keys in on a fundamental issue. The fact that you dont think there is significant bias against romance fiction as literary works is hugely telling. Romance is often seen as trashy, as a joke. We laugh at the shirtless men on the cover and at the "lonely, middle aged women" who read them. Romance novels are seen as the lowest of the low of literary works.

Well, it's worth noting that you're referring to bodice rippers. I'm referring to Jane Austin and Emily Bronte. I think you could probably identify the difference in the way that those are perceived in literary circles. Romance is not only bodice ripper harlequin novels, you should be aware of that, if you're trying to remove your own biases about works of fiction.

I'm also talking about public perception, since that is what this whole discussion is about. And I don't see much positive public perception for slice of life and diary works. (in fact, to take an example from another medium with a lot of slice of life stories written by women, anime, they are widely hated in western anime communities).

Again, I wasn't referring to slice of life stories from Anime, that's a different genre, and I'm unfamiliar with it. I was referring to works like Anne of Green Gables, written by a woman. Little House on the Prairie. And there are modern equivalent works to that. But there is certainly literary recognition for those works.

And finally, I would challenge you assertions that poetry is primarily authored by women. According Vida (http://www.vidaweb.org/category/the-count/), Poetry (the magazine) hasn't had a majority women authors since they started tracking, only getting close but under parity. I dont know enough about the other publications to look at how they compare genre wise but I think its safe to assume that Poetry only publishes poetry. In addition, some quick research of my own from best poet lists from the first page at google had an average of 17% women poets, and that would have been 12% if it wasn't for a top ten that was specificly contemporary poets and aiming to be diverse.
In addition, ranker.com's best poet ranking (http://www.ranker.com/list/best-poets/ranker-books) which is entirely user generated has the first women show up at #12 (emily dickenson) and doesn't have another until #58 (sappho).
Poetry is very much a male dominated field, at least that's its public perception which is why its not derided like fanfiction.
(and it's also a great counter example to "a lot of fanfiction is bad". There's a lot of very bad poetry posted on the internet, and people dont use those bad poems to write off the whole art form)

I'll admit that my poetry statement came more from the poets I had met personally and attended readings by, who were by and large women. Now it's also worth noting that "Best Poetry Lists" include a lot of older poetry which was primarily written by men. Also I'm not sure that you can use magazine publications as a clear guide here, since that's a different area for publication.

Edit: I feel the need to clarify that I wasnt using bustle as a source, but as an editorial to elaborate my point. I have no idea what the site is, but I saw the article and thought it was a good read.

Fair enough, but I'll note you attacked the weakest and least important of my points. You left alone the ones expecting you to actually back up what you are saying with any kind of factual evidence and proceeded to not do any of that. You have to have evidence if you're making a sweeping statement as you did.

You made the claim that it's female authorship that makes fanfiction an acceptable target. I have not seen any evidence that's the case. Not any. Not one person I've heard complaining about fanfiction (and this is my own experience) referenced the author being female as a problem. And again the most successful work inspired by fanfiction was penned by a female author. That pretty heavily undoes your hypothesis or at least suggests a complexity you seem to be unwilling to allow.

solidork

2017-08-11, 12:39 AM

I actually have seen men complain at length about women writing fan fiction, if 'personal ancedote' is permissible evidence. It's discourse of the lowest form and I won't repeat it here, but it is a thing. No one is going to prove anything with data here, it just isn't there. The closest thing I've seen to statistical data about fandom is a survey (http://centrumlumina.tumblr.com/post/63208278796/ao3-census-masterpost) related to users of A03. 10,000 responders and fewer than 500 of them identified as male.(I was one of them) That pretty much matches my experiences with fandom on Tumblr.

Also, people don't just announce their biases. They aren't even always aware of them, and if they are will often go to considerable lengths to hide them, even from themselves.

Things being classified as lesser because women like them is not a ridiculous thesis, and it is a popular one for explaining the dislike for fan fiction. It is definitely a thing that happened and is still happening.

A.A.King

2017-08-11, 06:55 AM

I can't believe it is actually true... take any topic you want and someone will say the problem is sexism... just wow

Is it really that hard to understand that the ratio of bad-to-good in the movie industry is not comparable to the ratio of bad-to-good fan fictions? Especially when you take into consideration the fact that when people think of 'movies' they only think of Hollywood-level of production values so all the proper bad movies (like the weird 'artsy' independent student 'movies' are not taken into consideration). You just can't take compare an industry of high-budget projects with something anyone can do without any oversight.

The problem with the 'authors' of fan fiction (a term they really haven't earned but oh well) isn't their gender, it's their age. It's a bunch of kids doing something badly (i.e. writing) and then patting themselves on the back for it. People generally don't like things which are almost primarily done by children (unless it goes mainstream I suppose). Worse though is the fact that rather than ruining their own characters they decide ruin someone else's, ones you might like. You're allowed to break your own toys, you just can't break mine. People may not hate 'all movies' but there are a lot of people (at least, here on the internet it seems like there are lot of them) who hate those new Transformer movies (though at this point calling the franchise 'new' seems to be stretching it) or that new TMNT movie because, as they put it "They are ruining our childhood". They liked something, someone else made his (wow, it's a man this time and it is still hated, unbelievable right?!) version of it which they thought was bad so they hate it (and the man). So here you have, a pass time done mainly by kids trying to do a grown-up skill badly and by doing so they mess with something you like? Is it really, really, that hard to understand why there might be hate or can you only ever see 'it's mainly done by woman' as their main motivator?

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-11, 08:19 AM

No, it really is about fandom. You must be a fan of something, feel empathy or fascination for it, to feel the need to contribute to it (and other fans) in the first place.

So I wouldn't call it "crowd-sourcing", as it´s primarily based on how the fan-author interacts with the source material, the pride of sharing and potential adoration by other fans.
Again, is it so difficult to describe the general greek populace as being 'fans' of homer or greek mythology in general? I mean, does fanfiction cease to be fanfiction when acceptance of the topic (e.g, Game of Thrones,) approaches demographic saturation? I mean, okay, you can define it as a minority or subculture concern, but it just raises the question of 'why does this distinction matter'? Is there something about writing fanfic for Home And Away or American Idol that will make it less bad, critically speaking?

Going back to the capes, I'm pretty sure a lot of comic authors are ascended fanboys these days.

Anyhoo, on the topic of sexism- it certainly wouldn't surprise me if the bulk of fanfic authors were women, and although I don't think sexism per se is the primary motive for hating fanfic, I do think it gets a little more flack and stigma than it deserves. Wrestling and B-movies are all relatively high-budget affairs that could certainly afford to hire decent script-writers if they had the interest in doing so. It is reasonable to have somewhat relaxed standards when it comes to an angsty teenager working alone for their own satisfaction and maybe some in-group kudos- the Snyders and Bruckheimers of the world have no excuse.

Florian

2017-08-11, 09:47 AM

Again, is it so difficult to describe the general greek populace as being 'fans' of homer or greek mythology in general?

Yes, because that´s based on a purely cultural background that is commonly understood. You don´t have to be an adherent of a religion to use common and readily understood tropes to ease up communication. Take Constantine as an example. Unlike Hellblazer, it´s easier to use christian symbology to add context without having to explain it because it´s mostly common knowledge for your target audience - unlike explaining how magic ought to function in a nutshell.
That´s one of the reasons why correct use of cultural archetypes can be a very powerful thing.

As for the matter of sexism. I actually don´t know why someone would deride "penny dreadfuls", "space opera" or "romances", expect being in denial of reality. That´s good business, caters to and holds on to the target audience in a matter other industries can only dream about.
But then we have things like 50 Shades .... Ok, I must admit that I´m a bit biased, mainly because I have friends in the BDSM scene and a bit more than second-hand knowledge myself, so I take a very critical view on some topics that clearly show hormones, but lack of experience.

Vinyadan

2017-08-12, 05:03 AM

Again, is it so difficult to describe the general greek populace as being 'fans' of homer or greek mythology in general? I mean, does fanfiction cease to be fanfiction when acceptance of the topic (e.g, Game of Thrones,) approaches demographic saturation? I mean, okay, you can define it as a minority or subculture concern, but it just raises the question of 'why does this distinction matter'? Is there something about writing fanfic for Home And Away or American Idol that will make it less bad, critically speaking?

I was answering to someone saying that, in a certain sense, the plays of Aeschylus and Sophocles were fanfiction. So what I was saying had nothing to do with the matter of quality, but with the matter of whether or not they are fanficiton. I actually was quite confused when you quoted me and said that the most important fact was related to quality of crowd-sourced narratives.

Now, if you want to start saying that, after all, the States are just very large counties, and the Federation is the largest county of them all, sure, you can do that. Just don't expect that many will follow and start calling the USA the County. This is in answer to the idea of Greek culture being describable as a subculture of a (from my POV, inexistent) Mediterranean or European culture of the time.

Another problem I see is that fanfiction is unpaid. To become commercial works, these stories have to be edited in such a way, as to lose their character of fanfiction and turn into something else (50 Shades being the most important example). Instead, Greek poetry was paid for. The aedoi sung at a court. The authors of Olympic poetry (as well as those who composed for the winners of other sport events) were paid for their work. The same goes for religious hymns. Behind Attic tragedy we see a state-sanctioned funding system, in which the richest citizens had the honour of paying a tax called choregia to pay for the choir.

Mythology was a religious deal. There is a strange school of thought that says that the ancients did not believe in their own religion, but we actually have many displays of this faith, some of them quite costly. There is a certain difference between religious faith and being a fan. The fact that myth wasn't separate from history adds one more layer that seems to me different from fanfiction, because the work of the poets had a great value as testimony of the role of families and cities. This is something you won't find in fanfiction.

Then we have the fact that fanfiction as a genre has its own set of tropes, which you won't coherently find in ancient literature. Most importantly, ancient Greece had no "canon". There wasn't a separate priestly class in Greece, nor a holy book. Priesthood was mostly something that was taken up by State magistrates to keep the peace with the gods, or occasionally was hereditary in a family which, however, otherwise lived its life as any other. Which leads to the question: even assuming that ancient mythology literature could be classified as fanfiction (which I don't think), where does the mythology end and the fanfiction begin? Because mythology isn't something that exists on its own, outside of texts, and Homer and Hesiod not only weren't "canon", since there was no canon, but also weren't writing (or composing) stuff they had exclusively made up.

So I don't think that the Greeks were "fans" of their myths, even though they enjoyed them greatly. One reason is that "fan" tends to be synonymous with "supporter", and it's hard to be a supporter for Achilles, when he's been dead since 1100 BC and you live in 500 BC. Which is why it turns into hero cult, which was an important part of Greek religion, with sacrifices, processions, prayers and all. They probably were fans of great sportsmen. But, even then, the tall tales about Milo of Croton have more to do with legend building than with fanfiction writing.

Since I don't know what Home And Away or American Idol are, I can't answer the last question.

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-12, 06:24 AM

I was answering to someone saying that, in a certain sense, the plays of Aeschylus and Sophocles were fanfiction. So what I was saying had nothing to do with the matter of quality, but with the matter of whether or not they are fanfiction...
I don't mean to cut you off, and I'm sure that from a scholarly perspective one could draw valid distinctions between then and now. But I don't see that fanfic writers are doing anything psychologically deviant here, aside from being the negative intersection on a venn diagram of originality, professionalism and privacy that renders them a soft target (https://xkcd.com/471/).

The basic question here is, "why is fanfiction hated"? A lot of posters seem to be answering, "because it is mostly of poor quality". The reasonable counter is this owes to the lack of critical oversight or quality control, but you can say this for a vast range of other personal hobbies, such as gardening or painting or little league sports, and amateur efforts are generally not detested. Another argument is that "fanfiction is derivative and shows disrespect for authorial intent", but huge chunks of celebrated franchises and mythologies have been derived from earlier narratives and distorted to the point where earlier meaning is barely visible. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it isn't, but we should at least be consistent about detesting it.

.

GolemsVoice

2017-08-12, 08:09 AM

The basic question here is, "why is fanfiction hated"? A lot of posters seem to be answering, "because it is mostly of poor quality". The reasonable counter is this owes to the lack of critical oversight or quality control, but you can say this for a vast range of other personal hobbies, such as gardening or painting or little league sports, and amateur efforts are generally not detested. Another argument is that "fanfiction is derivative and shows disrespect for authorial intent", but huge chunks of celebrated franchises and mythologies have been derived from earlier narratives and distorted to the point where earlier meaning is barely visible. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it isn't, but we should at least be consistent about detesting it.

.

The "problem" with most hobbies is that they aren't distributed on the internet. If somebody has an ugly garden because they are a poor gardener, their neighbours might scoff, but even a few hundred meters further, nobody will ever notice. A bad painter or artist will likely at best annoy their friends. Most little league games at least have some trainer and maybe even a, well, league, where actual efforts are measured in a competitive environment. I think the problem with fanfiction is intense passion + lack of oversight + lack of actual skills + internet.

Bohandas

2017-08-12, 10:26 AM

But then we have things like 50 Shades .... Ok, I must admit that I´m a bit biased, mainly because I have friends in the BDSM scene and a bit more than second-hand knowledge myself, so I take a very critical view on some topics that clearly show hormones, but lack of experience.

Have any of them actually read De Sade or Masoch?

goto124

2017-08-12, 11:17 AM

Most little league games at least have some trainer and maybe even a, well, league, where actual efforts are measured in a competitive environment.

I misread that as League of Legends, and nearly went on a tangent on how LoL players get plenty of hate for bad play.

jayem

2017-08-12, 01:38 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
Even if I hated all movies and all fan fiction they're not comprable mediums. One is a medium with a ton of people working on it (here talking about studio generated films) and the other is written by people in their loft apartments late at night. Not liking a movie because of bad writing isn't the same as not liking a fan fiction story for bad writing.
...
Yes. The bad movie is a much more staggering waste of finite resources.

I'd agree. That did seem a bit backward to what I would do (assuming I read it correctly).

I mean as a predictor of quality, it seems a perfectly reasonable way of going about it. It isn't surprising that a top 10% fan-fiction is worse in quality than a bottom 10% actually completed movie. Merely by being completed it's passed a test that the fan-fiction on is only now going through*.

But if I saw the two works blind, rated both as being equal quality (i.e. in bad writing) then I'd give the fan-fiction points on the basis it can be made better, whereas the movie has already been 'polished' and is still what it is.

*which is of course another reason fan-fiction is often worse. When it is good, it gets repackaged with additional editing and counted as a story.

Mikemical

2017-08-13, 04:24 PM

I think the problem with fanfiction is intense passion + lack of oversight + lack of actual skills + internet.

Not to mention the large amount of self-inserts and authors who will bend the entire universe backwards to try to make people sympathize with them. Plus the special snowflakes that go "IT'S MY STYLE!1!11!" whenevery anyone tries giving them constructive criticism.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-14, 09:27 AM

The real issue isn't that "people tend to hate amateur efforts". Given a sufficiently big enough fandom (which doesn't really need to be that big nowadays, thanks to internet), you get the natural emergence of an opposite force, a.k.a: a hatedom.

That is natural not only for fanfictions, but it occurs on every level of human activity. Problem is, fanfiction already needs a an established fandom which it necessarily wants to attach to (otherwise, it wouldn't be published). But because of the dynamics of how fanfiction sites work, they attract only a fandom, not its correspondent hatedom (at least that isn't a general case); therefore the readers of a fanfiction are mostly fans of the Original Work and the Fanfic Hatedom is born from those. So a fanfic gets now two Hatedoms, one from the original series, and one from the fans themselves. Double hatedom, double criticism.

Now, hatedom and fandom psychology share a peculiar trait: they aren't generally the most rational of peoples. So their criticism tends to be harsher, more disrespectful and irrational than regular criticism. And also, because fanfictions are published almost exclusively for niche people; those criticism get magnified yet again, because the criticism isn't coming from general acceptance, but from people who already share some traits and prejudices among themselves (being fans of the same thing, basically).

So yes, it's only natural that haters of fanfics become irrational and some may show their sexist (or any other prejudice) faces. But summarizing the hate to fanfics in general to a single form of prejudice and/or trying to shield fanfiction from criticism (either fair or biased) on the basis of a simple statistical fact, is somewhat naive and an oversimplification of the issue IMHO. Many human behaviours are discredited solely for sexist reasons. But fanfiction writing isn't one of them.

AvatarVecna

2017-08-14, 11:51 AM

I generally enjoy fanfiction, having been reading it for over a decade and writing it for nearly that long, but with how much I've read, a lot of common issues have become incredibly obvious. Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7uaIFVFiM)'s a really good satirical video that does a really good job of showing off all the cringy, poorly-made aspects that plague many of these stories.

Glorthindel

2017-08-15, 07:49 AM

Another argument is that "fanfiction is derivative and shows disrespect for authorial intent", but huge chunks of celebrated franchises and mythologies have been derived from earlier narratives and distorted to the point where earlier meaning is barely visible. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it isn't, but we should at least be consistent about detesting it.

In my defence, there is nothing I detest more than a current singer doing a cover of a classic song, or a reboot or remake of a classic movie. I am just about tolerant of a thoughtfully done book-to-movie or stage-to-movie adaption, but I will invariably seek out the original as a point of principle. So although my own reason for detesting fanfiction is the plagiarisation side of it, I am generally consistant in applying that distaste to other mediums that practice it.

I will even go so far as to say that I refuse to read the Brandon Sanderson Wheel of Time books - I thoroughly enjoy Sandersons own works (the Mistborn series is brilliant), but have no interest on seeing his take on Robert Jordan's work (even if he was working off Jordans roadmap, I am still utterly uninterested). I extend this same attitude to Christopher Tolkien and Brian Herbert - I don't care how many pages of notes or half-written books they keep finding, I am not interested in their words.

Jay R

2017-08-15, 10:23 AM

Why do people hate fanfictions and act as if they were bad?

Because they usually are. Professionally produced stories have been judged by editors and determined to be far better literary value than 99.9% of all submissions. And even so, there's a lot that's not very good. I'm so glad I don't have to read the remainder that wasn't considered good enough to publish.

Which is pretty much what reading fanfiction would be.

Now, some fanfiction might be good - maybe even great. But I won't go through all the stuff I'd have to to find it, when I can pick up an editor-approved story simply by buying a book.

If you think about almost every movie is nothing but a type of fanfiction.

Only by pretending that "fanfiction" means something other than what it really means.

I have no problem with new versions of old stories. That category includes Iliad and the Oddyssey, Oedipus Rex, the Morte d'Arthur, most of Shakespeare, Dumas's Three Musketeers, and a host of other great works. Aristotle said that when writing tragedy, first you pick a known story, then choose what elements of it you plan to use.

And I have no problem with fans extending their favorite stories with their own speculations, privately, for their own purposes. "What happens next" is a very human approach to any story.

But using somebody else's copyrighted work or trademarked characters publicly is stealing. It's plagiarism.

I have no ethical objection to fanfic based on works out of copyright. [I still don't want to read random amateur stories when professional ones are available, of course.]

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-15, 10:59 AM

I have no problem with new versions of old stories. That category includes Iliad and the Oddyssey, Oedipus Rex, the Morte d'Arthur, most of Shakespeare, Dumas's Three Musketeers, and a host of other great works. Aristotle said that when writing tragedy, first you pick a known story, then choose what elements of it you plan to use.

And I have no problem with fans extending their favorite stories with their own speculations, privately, for their own purposes. "What happens next" is a very human approach to any story.

But using somebody else's copyrighted work or trademarked characters publicly is stealing. It's plagiarism.
No, plagiarism would not give credit to the original author or franchise materials. Fan-fiction, more-or-less by definition, does give credit to the source. (As far as copyright is concerned I would argue it falls under the heading of fair use (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#U.S._fair_use_factors).)

kyoryu

2017-08-15, 11:26 AM

Because they usually are. Professionally produced stories have been judged by editors and determined to be far better literary value than 99.9% of all submissions. And even so, there's a lot that's not very good. I'm so glad I don't have to read the remainder that wasn't considered good enough to publish.

Which is pretty much what reading fanfiction would be.

Now, some fanfiction might be good - maybe even great. But I won't go through all the stuff I'd have to to find it, when I can pick up an editor-approved story simply by buying a book.

Here's the thing. Fanfiction is a publishing dead end (50 shades aside). If you're going to start and write something, you have a choice: Write fanfiction, and know that it can't get published, or write non-fanfiction, and have a chance (however slim) of publication.

So there's a filter - authors that can write good enough material to be published will, in a large number of cases, not write fanfiction. The nature of the medium itself selects against publishable material.

Only by pretending that "fanfiction" means something other than what it really means.

Yeah, this is a personal pet peeve argument of mine. "You don't like X? Well I'm going to use some clever word trick to argue that things you like are, in fact, X, and therefore you actually do like these things that you're calling X."

No, plagiarism would not give credit to the original author or franchise materials. Fan-fiction, more-or-less by definition, does give credit to the source. (As far as copyright is concerned I would argue it falls under the heading of fair use (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#U.S._fair_use_factors).)

Fair use would at least potentially apply to fanfiction not professionally published. It would pretty clearly not apply to works done and sold. Leading back to my first point in this post.

Themrys

2017-08-15, 11:26 AM

Because it's typically poorly written with poor grammar and serves only as a vehicle for the author's ego.

Because it serves as a vehicle for a female author's ego.

Works that serve as vehicle for a male author's ego are so commonplace people don't even notice them.

Famously, all the traits of a typical "Mary Sue", i.e. female author ego vehicle character, also apply to ... I think it was Batman, but could be a lot more male superheroes.

It is also interesting that no one seems to hate on self-published books. Which are exactly as bad as fanfic. I wonder whether that has something to do with the respective percentages of male writers in both ... hmmm.

Here's the thing. Fanfiction is a publishing dead end (50 shades aside). If you're going to start and write something, you have a choice: Write fanfiction, and know that it can't get published, or write non-fanfiction, and have a chance (however slim) of publication.
So there's a filter - authors that can write good enough material to be published will, in a large number of cases, not write fanfiction. The nature of the medium itself selects against publishable material.

That's utter nonsense. You start from the entirely false premise that 1) all people who can write well want to make money with it, and b) people know whether they are good writers.

The people I have met on forums for authors that hope to be published one day were, by and large, very full of themselves, while having very little actual skill, which they try to disguise by writing in a very pretentious style. There's good writers there, too, of course, but the general impression is that most are utterly overestimating their own skill.

Fanfic writers, by comparison, are much more pleasant company, and many of them are very good at writing. They just aren't utterly convinced that they are so great that they are guaranteed to be published, and would rather have people be able to read their writing than, you know, only having literature agents who then reject them read their stuff.

warty goblin

2017-08-15, 11:51 AM

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-15, 12:33 PM

I find Batman actively irritating, in the same Ayn Rand Lite way I find most superheroes irritating.
Is there some particular reason this would apply to superheroes in ways that it wouldn't apply to other exceptional protagonists? As I saw it the core of Ayn Rand's stories was the heroes sort of going on and on about how benefitting themselves benefitted society, and the drones should accept their place.

Yeah, this is a personal pet peeve argument of mine. "You don't like X? Well I'm going to use some clever word trick to argue that things you like are, in fact, X, and therefore you actually do like these things that you're calling X."

Fair use would at least potentially apply to fanfiction not professionally published. It would pretty clearly not apply to works done and sold. Leading back to my first point in this post.
I'm not certain that's necessarily true. I'm fairly sure works of deliberate satire or parody would be protected and could be sold independently- there are plenty of precedents- and although most fanfiction wouldn't be (intentionally) done in that spirit, the 1st and 4th criteria for fair use can in theory be satisfied if the work is (A) transformative and (B) does not impact the market value of the original copyrighted material. I would argue that, setting quality aside, most fanfiction is transformative by nature- it tries to take the source material in a new direction. And arguments about losing market value are surprisingly difficult to prove (as the music industry has found.)

I'm sure if you ever got into a protracted legal slugfest on this point, whoever has the deeper pockets is likely to win, and I won't say they'd be automatically wrong. But that's not quite the same as proving a point of legal principle.

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-15, 01:14 PM

Famously, all the traits of a typical "Mary Sue", i.e. female author ego vehicle character, also apply to ... I think it was Batman, but could be a lot more male superheroes.
I tend to view the Mary Sue as a property of the text rather than a property of the author. I see it as a character who has no flaws and has no weaknesses and effortlessly solves all problems and is universally beloved and pay no price for their success, which I consider objectively boring and a sign of bad writing. (Rey from Force Awakens and early-season Korra come to mind.)

I don't think the majority of Batman incarnations tick those boxes. If nothing else, he has to expend the intellectual effort of coming up with tactics and contingency plans, which can be interesting to walk though, and if he's being beaten within an inch of his life and rescued on occasion he clearly has vulnerabilities. He's often viewed with suspicion and ambivalence by the public, winds up alienating certain allies for the sake of his way of doing things, and has to train and study constantly to keep his edge. Maybe the author thinks that's an awesome way to live life, maybe they don't. But it's not a Mary Sue.

Speaking personally, I have no problem with characters being an author mouthpiece, so long as they express those values through actual sacrifice and organic development. (The Gems from Steven Universe and the new Wonder Woman come to mind.)

Keltest

2017-08-15, 02:04 PM

Famously, all the traits of a typical "Mary Sue", i.e. female author ego vehicle character, also apply to ... I think it was Batman, but could be a lot more male superheroes.

The version of the trope I'm familiar with has nothing to do with the author being female. Some people call male versions of the character "Marty Stu", others don't even bother to differentiate the name between the sexes.

And yes, Batman and Superman both dance on the line between "exceptionally skilled/abled" and "mary sue", depending on the writer.

JBPuffin

2017-08-15, 02:25 PM

As far as thread starts went, first post sucks - very little detail, next post by OP was complaining about one of the responses, and all based off false premises. Ugh.

Let's start from the top: fan fiction in its current form revolves around internet publishing, whether through blogs, Fanfiction.net, or other places one can freely post walls of text derived from other people's works. Previous forms of "fan fiction" did not have the same freedom of availability. Movies range from wholly original to book-to-screen adaptations with author cooperation to complete remakes inspired by material the movie maker obtains the rights to; comparing movies to fan fiction is unfair to the medium because of what the concept of movies covers. "Movies vs novels" is a fair comparison, movies vs fanfic is not.

Like all of my writing projects, fanfic ideas rarely get far off the ground; I'll have a decent premise, write a couple chapters, and get bored or run out of ideas and move on to something else. Most fanfic authors are in a similar boat, eventually running out of ideas or writing time, and those that can maintain both may or may not write material worth one's time. I've read Methods of Rationality and Natural 20 up to a certain point and enjoyed them, but my favorite work by far was the feature-length novel that is Casualties (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2708763/1/Casualties), by far some of the best writing I've ever read. Worm received a similar treatment in usage pattern - I spent entire days on each - but in the end, I'd say Casualties ended on a higher note for me. This was an example of someone having the time and energy to write something that both built its own world and didn't need an outside source, but having played Final Fantasy Tactics Advance beforehand, I knew the mechanics behind the action and was in awe of how faithful it was.

So, if you want an example of a fanfic author writing something worth publishing with an actual ending? See above. Most online-published stuff has more flaws and less editing, however, and there's more absolute trash available through the Internet than the theater, so browse wisely.

Oh, and on Mary Sue/Marty Stu - the average person won't have many problems with most versions of this. Hyper-capable characters are a staple of fantasy and sci-fi, and the difference between a hyper-capable protagonist and a Mary Sue protagonist can often go unnoticed, especially in fiction targeted for younger audiences. Honestly, I'm more likely to complain about a hyper-capable bland character than a Mary Sue who feels more characterized, and I'm not objective in the slightest so take that with a grain of salt. Tropes exist because they're common, and fiction both original and derivative is full of Marys and/or Martys.

Xyril

2017-08-15, 05:10 PM

As far as thread starts went, first post sucks - very little detail, next post by OP was complaining about one of the responses, and all based off false premises. Ugh.

Speaking of allegedly false premises, this part doesn't exactly do a lot to dispel the allegation that the average fan fiction author is fussy and self-important.

That being said, I do appreciate the input from a writer of fan fiction, a perspective that isn't well represented in this thread. However, if you're going to assert that "all" (more than 30) responses are "based off false premises," it would be helpful to make a few more specific assertions, particularly since I actually found many of the responses to be completely consistent with the factual assertions you make in your post.

Xyril

2017-08-15, 05:29 PM

Here's the thing. Fanfiction is a publishing dead end (50 shades aside). If you're going to start and write something, you have a choice: Write fanfiction, and know that it can't get published, or write non-fanfiction, and have a chance (however slim) of publication.

So there's a filter - authors that can write good enough material to be published will, in a large number of cases, not write fanfiction. The nature of the medium itself selects against publishable material.

I feel like this comment can only come from a non-author. Different types of writing often value different things that can draw on radically different talents. For example, legal writing values repetitiveness and consistency in a manner that is antithetical to most norms of creative writing. There are very few universal rules that apply to all styles of writing, but I think I know one: Never fall in love with your writing. Good writing means being able to see when your writing isn't as good as you initially believed, or that it's good but no longer appropriate, and being willing to discard and replace when necessary. Being good at things in general often involves the ability to recognize that most people aren't naturally and effortlessly skilled, and that doing well requires both natural talent and practice.

What this is means is that very few people with the potential to be good authors will be wringing their hands over the dilemma you propose. There is no reason beyond emotional attachment why your first works have to be the first works that get published. Even if they are, there's no reason why they can't be modified enough to take them outside the realm of infringing fanfiction--in fact, even for an original work, it is likely that your writing could benefit from revision after a hard look from an editor. Instead, your first works should be looked as as a chance to practice while doing something you love and hopefully having the benefit of audience feedback. If you're really lucky, maybe there will be a kernel of something so singularly special in your works that it's worth commercializing (either by editing out the references to copyrighted work or approaching the author for licensing agreement.) For most people, however, the best you can hope for is a lot of practice and good feedback, and a receptive audience who have grown to enjoy your writing style and would be ready to give you a chance when you publish your first "real" work.

Merellis

2017-08-15, 06:00 PM

My only issue sometimes is the bloat that happens when some stories just explode. Like, their 20 odd chapters would more than encompass an entire book, BUT THEY STILL AREN'T EVEN CLOSE TO BEING DONE.

Honest Tiefling

2017-08-15, 09:49 PM

Personally, I think the answer is a lot simpler.

Yes, I associate fanfic with sex stories...

It's not the sex. It's the creepy as **** sex. I'm never looking at a pokemon the same way again.

This might not hold true for everyone, but I imagine that since D&D and other roleplaying games intersect with fandoms that make fan fiction, a lot of people here are going to have encountered THAT AUTHOR. The one who will refuse to talk about anything other then their writing. The one who will randomly compare things to events or people from their fan fiction, even if no one has actually read the piece. Oh no, the conversation/game has to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the topic of this fan fiction. Any attempt to steer it away gets met with guilt-tripping of why won't you read this fanfic 'I wrote? It's fantastic!'. Nothing will convince this person that you don't want to read their fan fic, and if you do out of pity, Pelor save you if you try to give criticism.

I might have known a few people like that.

Knaight

2017-08-15, 10:46 PM

It is also interesting that no one seems to hate on self-published books. Which are exactly as bad as fanfic. I wonder whether that has something to do with the respective percentages of male writers in both ... hmmm.

People routinely hate on self published books (or books published in vanity presses, which is basically the expensive version of the same thing). Heck, the very term "vanity press" is openly contemptuous of everyone who uses them.

kyoryu

2017-08-16, 12:50 PM

I feel like this comment can only come from a non-author. Different types of writing often value different things that can draw on radically different talents. For example, legal writing values repetitiveness and consistency in a manner that is antithetical to most norms of creative writing. There are very few universal rules that apply to all styles of writing, but I think I know one: Never fall in love with your writing. Good writing means being able to see when your writing isn't as good as you initially believed, or that it's good but no longer appropriate, and being willing to discard and replace when necessary. Being good at things in general often involves the ability to recognize that most people aren't naturally and effortlessly skilled, and that doing well requires both natural talent and practice.

I'm not an author. I am, however, a software developer and have been for 25 or so. And the majority of what you say applies to that. I'm also an amateur musician, and it applies there. These are universal truths, and aren't restricted to writing.

What this is means is that very few people with the potential to be good authors will be wringing their hands over the dilemma you propose.

I'm not talking about potential. Someone writing their first program, or writing their first story, is a novice. They're learning. Their work will, almost universally, be unsuitable for public consumption. A novice shouldn't be considering this.

I'm a professional developer. If I start a project, you better bet I'm thinking about if and how I can publish it. Licenses for the software I use, non-competes with work, they all factor into the things that I do.

So, let's say that there's a hypothetical library that might be useful, but will guarantee that I can't ever professionally publish some piece of software. There's no reason for the novice to not do that. There is, however, a compelling reason for me to consider whether I should use it or not. And sometimes I may decide that for the purposes of what I'm doing, it makes sense to do that and not publish it. And sometimes I may decide that it makes no sense to do so.

There is no reason beyond emotional attachment why your first works have to be the first works that get published.

Of course not. First works (music, art, writing, software, whatever) are usually of poor quality, as you're learning. But I never said anything about first works. If it wasn't clear, I was talking about people with sufficiently developed skills that they'd have a reasonable belief that they could be published, based on experience, feedback, learning, practice, etc. Not new authors with a belief that their first works will be sufficient for publishing (possible, but unlikely).

Even if they are, there's no reason why they can't be modified enough to take them outside the realm of infringing fanfiction--in fact, even for an original work, it is likely that your writing could benefit from revision after a hard look from an editor.

Sure, and if I'm using the hypothetical library above, I can always remove and replace it... but if I *know* I'm going to have to do it, why not just do it up front?

Instead, your first works should be looked as as a chance to practice while doing something you love and hopefully having the benefit of audience feedback. If you're really lucky, maybe there will be a kernel of something so singularly special in your works that it's worth commercializing (either by editing out the references to copyrighted work or approaching the author for licensing agreement.) For most people, however, the best you can hope for is a lot of practice and good feedback, and a receptive audience who have grown to enjoy your writing style and would be ready to give you a chance when you publish your first "real" work.

Well, yes. And if you're saying that 'fanfiction is great for new authors to build their chops, and once they've done so, they'll probably move away from fanfiction', then you're saying exactly what I am. That is, like, literally, the exact same thing that I'm saying. The restrictions of the medium do not impact new and beginning authors, but are such that experienced, professional or semi-pro authors are less likely to publish it. This leads to a higher number of novice, unskilled authors writing fanfiction (especially since that does a large amount of the worldbuilding and audience gathering for them). It also leads to a lower number of pro/semi-pro authors writing fanfiction. This leads to an overall decrease in the quality of fanfiction, as it ends up attracing new/novice authors.

Jay R

2017-08-16, 01:52 PM

And yes, Batman and Superman both dance on the line between "exceptionally skilled/abled" and "mary sue", depending on the writer.

A Mary Sue is not merely highly competent. A Mary Sue is somebody who outdoes all the established characters at their own specialty. The original Mary Sue was a better captain than Kirk, a better science officer than Spock, a better doctor than McCoy, etc.

Batman isn't a Mary Sue unless he is stronger than Superman, faster than the Flash, has a better lasso than Wonder Woman, etc.

He's better than anyone else at his own specialties, but he doesn't breathe water better than Aquaman.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-08-16, 02:07 PM

A Mary Sue is not merely highly competent. A Mary Sue is somebody who outdoes all the established characters at their own specialty. The original Mary Sue was a better captain than Kirk, a better science officer than Spock, a better doctor than McCoy, etc.

Batman isn't a Mary Sue unless he is stronger than Superman, faster than the Flash, has a better lasso than Wonder Woman, etc.

He's better than anyone else at his own specialties, but he doesn't breathe water better than Aquaman.

He also has flaws, such as his ability to undermine every adult relationship he has attempted because of his obsession with policing Gotham. Jokes about his wards aside, when your only "friend" is your butler, there is something wrong with you.

Mary Sues tend to be adored by all - even their "enemies" - without earning it, and have no flaws except "technical" ones that do not impact the story at all (or at worst, are not flaws at all).

(The above is said by someone that dislike Batman's hyper-competence, and has never read the comics)

Grey Wolf

AMFV

2017-08-16, 02:16 PM

A Mary Sue is not merely highly competent. A Mary Sue is somebody who outdoes all the established characters at their own specialty. The original Mary Sue was a better captain than Kirk, a better science officer than Spock, a better doctor than McCoy, etc.

Batman isn't a Mary Sue unless he is stronger than Superman, faster than the Flash, has a better lasso than Wonder Woman, etc.

He's better than anyone else at his own specialties, but he doesn't breathe water better than Aquaman.

It's worth noting that comic books are an interesting area because they have many different authors writing the same character. For example I would say that in many of Frank Miller's works Batman would absolutely qualify as a Mary Sue, this is not the case in many other authors versions of Batman.

However in counter to Themrys' point, people frequently notice and become very irritated with Batman when he is portrayed as a Mary Sue. Which suggests that it's the writing of the character rather than the character's gender that is the principal Factor

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-16, 08:47 PM

It's worth noting that comic books are an interesting area because they have many different authors writing the same character. For example I would say that in many of Frank Miller's works Batman would absolutely qualify as a Mary Sue, this is not the case in many other authors versions of Batman.

This a hundread million times. Not specifically the Miller part (altho I'm not a fan of the comic version of Dark Knight... in the least); but because most of writers who forget that Batman's profile only fits a very specific genre (with few rare exceptions) tend to depict him as a Gary Stu. Batman truly shines when it's about his own flaws and the flaws of the city because he is from the Film Noir archetype.

That's why whenever he becomes a freedom fighter who was right all along (DK), whenever he goes around the world fundraising masked vigilantes (Batman Inc) or whenever he pulls a Reed Richards out of his ass (killing Darkseid) he comes out of the story as the abhorrent Bat-God the writer for some unfathomable reason think he should be; instead of the freaking broken traumatized child he actually is, in its essence. Sure, thake away all the flaws from the most archetypical kind of antihero, surely that will make him even more interesting. :smallannoyed:

(Fanboy rant over)

Point was, yeah, Gary/Mary Sues aren't always restricted to fanfiction, heck, I don't even think it ever was a distinctive characteristic of fanfiction (the terminology is, but the concept is not). Many poorly written books have a Creator's Pet more often than not, and it's probably the first challenge most writers need to overcome in order to improve.

Gnoman

2017-08-16, 08:55 PM

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-17, 11:24 AM

This a hundread million times. Not specifically the Miller part (altho I'm not a fan of the comic version of Dark Knight... in the least); but because most of writers who forget that Batman's profile only fits a very specific genre (with few rare exceptions) tend to depict him as a Gary Stu. Batman truly shines when it's about his own flaws and the flaws of the city because he is from the Film Noir archetype.
Batman from TDKR isn't a Mary Sue- or at least, not by any definition that I'd consider to be a problem. He gets beaten and bloody, needs rescuing and outside help, has to adjust tactics, make sacrifices, and undergo a discernible arc in terms of priorities and outlook. Just because you disagree with the outlook or think the story shouldn't vindicate it doesn't make it a dysfunctional narrative device.

The problem with the Mary Sue is that s/he can't actually demonstrate their personality aside from in superficial terms, because their choices involve no tradeoffs, cost or resistance, so they can't really show hard commitment to any particular ethical stance or value system. People keep confusing this with a particular level of competence in any specific skill or even relative to other characters, but those are symptoms and not the disease. The problem is a character who never has to make a hard call, as a vehicle for an author who thinks that talking at readers is the same as proving their point.

Lord Joeltion

2017-08-17, 02:24 PM

Batman from TDKR isn't a Mary Sue- or at least, not by any definition that I'd consider to be a problem. He gets beaten and bloody, needs rescuing and outside help, has to adjust tactics, make sacrifices, and undergo a discernible arc in terms of priorities and outlook. Just because you disagree with the outlook or think the story shouldn't vindicate it doesn't make it a dysfunctional narrative device.

The problem with the Mary Sue is that s/he can't actually demonstrate their personality aside from in superficial terms, because their choices involve no tradeoffs, cost or resistance, so they can't really show hard commitment to any particular ethical stance or value system. People keep confusing this with a particular level of competence in any specific skill or even relative to other characters, but those are symptoms and not the disease. The problem is a character who never has to make a hard call, as a vehicle for an author who thinks that talking at readers is the same as proving their point.
His personality is twisted beyond recognition from what a regular Batman fan wants to read about in a more "normal" setting. Beyond that *every other hero that opposes him* also is twisted in a very specific way to make him look even more right in what he is doing (Superman is more idiotic than TFS Goku and extremely gullible, and Wonder Woman is very close to a crazy Nazi [no, not the feminist kind, the RACIST one], and obviously every DC hero who could actually help improve the situation is either disregarded or not even mentioned by Miller). So yes, I think Frank Miller's sin during TDKR was making Batam his Creator's Pet.

Not that there is anything wrong with him doing that, since that's exactly what DC wanted from him: a spin-off series about a dystopian Frank Miller-esque Batman. Don't get me wrong, the comic is a fairly good read... if you read it as a Frank Miller's comic book. Once you want to insert it in any Batman continuity (even as an alternate universe) then Batman comes off dangerously close to a Mary Sue, because the setting is yet another tool for to make him look more right than he really is.

Btw, I don't think Creator's Pets or Mary Sue-ish traits necessarily destroy any given story. Sometimes, that is the whole point. Miller's Batman fits perfectly his own enclosed story. It simply doesn't fit too well on the bigger scheme of Batman stories. So you could say I think TDKR makes a good fanfic :)

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-17, 04:29 PM

His personality is twisted beyond recognition from what a regular Batman fan wants to read about in a more "normal" setting. Beyond that *every other hero that opposes him* also is twisted in a very specific way to make him look even more right in what he is doing (Superman is more idiotic than TFS Goku and extremely gullible, and Wonder Woman is very close to a crazy Nazi [no, not the feminist kind, the RACIST one], and obviously every DC hero who could actually help improve the situation is either disregarded or not even mentioned by Miller). So yes, I think Frank Miller's sin during TDKR was making Batam his Creator's Pet.
I haven't read Strikes Again or Master Race and have no particular desire to, so I don't know what you're referring to with Wonder Woman, but while I agree that other heroes tend to be ignored and the background setting of TDKR has to be heavily engineered to give Batman contextual justification for his behaviour, well... here's the thing: While Miller's setting may not resemble the default DC universe, it is at least internally consistent with both itself and Batman as a basic concept.

I've always felt that the default version of modern-day Superman has to inhabit a kind of bubble universe where the vast majority of petty crime just doesn't happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City), by virtue of the simple fact that he doesn't spend 24 hours a day flying around stopping muggers. (There's a scene people really like in All-Star where he talks down a suicidal teen from the ledge of a building, thus demonstrating he cares for every person however small, but of course it has to be the one and only suicide occurring on earth at the time.)

I mean, if there were any logic to the setting, Supes would scoop up Gothams' rogues with super-senses and flying brick attacks while Wayne Enterprises staged a hostile takeover of LexCorp. But Gotham City can't exist in the same universe where Supes finds time to date Lois and visit the Kents, so the neat solution writers have historically arrived at is to studiously ignore the inconsistency. Superman as a government pawn is arguably one of the less bad explanations for his highly selective policies of social intervention, and given Batman's schtick has always been about striking fear into criminals' hearts... well, he'd kinda have to do some nasty things in order to keep his rep. You can't entirely blame Miller for that.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that, aside from having a strong central narrative core, there is a sense of concrete completeness to TDKR that a lot of other incarnations lack, a sense of fitting together that gives a substance to the brutal, hulking silhouette. And while that world doesn't really resemble ours that closely, it's a lot more familiar than wherever Superman comes from.

Bohandas

2017-08-18, 01:47 AM

Razade

2017-08-18, 02:01 AM

Because it serves as a vehicle for a female author's ego.

Male or female. I, unlike you, don't make distinctions on gender. Don't attempt to twist my words or put words in where I clearly didn't mean them.

Works that serve as vehicle for a male author's ego are so commonplace people don't even notice them.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Take your gender baiting somewhere else.

Famously, all the traits of a typical "Mary Sue", i.e. female author ego vehicle character, also apply to ... I think it was Batman, but could be a lot more male superheroes.

I don't like Batman either when he's written like that. Your false equivalence doesn't work on any level.

It is also interesting that no one seems to hate on self-published books. Which are exactly as bad as fanfic. I wonder whether that has something to do with the respective percentages of male writers in both ... hmmm.

Hahaha...tons of people do. Tons and tons and tons. Go look at the Amazon reviews for every self published book. You don't seem to see it because you're not looking and it doesn't support your agenda.

Mikemical

2017-08-18, 08:21 AM

Because it serves as a vehicle for a female author's ego.

Because a completely flawless character that is better at anything than everyone who is adored even by her mortal enemies is totally relatable. People like Harry Potter because he was a relatable character. Bella Swan was only relatable because she was a blank slate any hormonal teenage girl could superimpose herself on top of. Dementia Ravencrow Ashenblack is not relatable with her heterochromia, her demonic evil side she's afraid to give into, her hair that requires a full thesaurus to describe, and her choice of wearing steampunk gear and wielding a light-katana(that is also one of a kind and better than a lightsaber) in the setting of Inuyasha.

Works that serve as vehicle for a male author's ego are so commonplace people don't even notice them.

You would think the forums would have rules against such obvious gender-baiting like they have about discussing politics. But let me point out something you just said.

"male authors' works are so commonplace nobody notices them", therefore, male authors have it harder because there is so many other male authors out there pushing out stories. The only way they get any recognition is if their book is controversial in some way or it's related to something scandalous.

Famously, all the traits of a typical "Mary Sue", i.e. female author ego vehicle character, also apply to ... I think it was Batman, but could be a lot more male superheroes.

I don't recall a story where Batman is faster than Flash or Jesse Quick, stronger and more durable than Superman and Wonder Woman, can communicate with marine life better than Aquaman or Mera, or having the entire Legion of Doom go "Damn that beautiful hunk of man in a leather suit". The JLA episode where he seduced Cheetah to troll the Legion being the only exception and he was exploiting their weaknesses to stall for time until the League rescued him as well as wreak havoc among their ranks. BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN.

It is also interesting that no one seems to hate on self-published books. Which are exactly as bad as fanfic. I wonder whether that has something to do with the respective percentages of male writers in both ... hmmm.

Ha. No. People hate Dan Brown's books because the guy is so damn sure what he is writing is actually real despite doing a five minute search on wikipedia about whatever he is gonna write next and say "I've done extensive research on the matter". He's to books what Game Theory is to Videogame Lore-focused Youtube channels.

I would totally buy any of Chuck Tingle's books (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Tingle#Short_stories), though.

"Pounded In The Butt By My Book "Pounded In The Butt By My Book 'Pounded In The Butt By My Book "Pounded In The Butt By My Book 'Pounded In The Butt By My Book "Pounded In The Butt By My Own Butt"'"'" sounds like a particularly good read.

Jokes aside, I wouldn't actually read them, but just buy the whole "Pounded In The Butt" saga and put one next to each other in a bookshelf.

kyoryu

2017-08-18, 10:18 AM

I wish the second group would go back to Minauros.

So, every professional author should go to Minauros? Not writing fanfiction because you want to publish is somehow bad?

Seriously?

That doesn't even make sense.

Bohandas

2017-08-18, 05:27 PM

Ha. No. People hate Dan Brown's books because the guy is so damn sure what he is writing is actually real despite doing a five minute search on wikipedia about whatever he is gonna write next and say "I've done extensive research on the matter".

I'm not sure he even does that, unless he's looking up other books and movies. The DaVinci Code appeared to me to be mostly composed of plot points stolen from Dogma, Hudson Hawk, and Monty Python and the Holy Grail

So, every professional author should go to Minauros? Not writing fanfiction because you want to publish is somehow bad?

Seriously?

That doesn't even make sense.

Sorry, maybe that was a bit over he top. It's just that ever since [political issues relating to big content that I probably shouldn't go into] I have difficulty thinking of commercial content creation as anything other than the tool of Mammon

An Enemy Spy

2017-08-19, 12:59 AM

Because it serves as a vehicle for a female author's ego.

Works that serve as vehicle for a male author's ego are so commonplace people don't even notice them.

Famously, all the traits of a typical "Mary Sue", i.e. female author ego vehicle character, also apply to ... I think it was Batman, but could be a lot more male superheroes.

It is also interesting that no one seems to hate on self-published books. Which are exactly as bad as fanfic. I wonder whether that has something to do with the respective percentages of male writers in both ... hmmm.

That's utter nonsense. You start from the entirely false premise that 1) all people who can write well want to make money with it, and b) people know whether they are good writers.

The people I have met on forums for authors that hope to be published one day were, by and large, very full of themselves, while having very little actual skill, which they try to disguise by writing in a very pretentious style. There's good writers there, too, of course, but the general impression is that most are utterly overestimating their own skill.

Fanfic writers, by comparison, are much more pleasant company, and many of them are very good at writing. They just aren't utterly convinced that they are so great that they are guaranteed to be published, and would rather have people be able to read their writing than, you know, only having literature agents who then reject them read their stuff.

It's like, do you even care about being right or do you just have a drum you want to beat no matter what the reality of the situation is? Anything I say about your gender argument I'm sure you'll just take as me being a mean old chauvinist hating women, so I don't feel like touching that, but nobody hates self-published works? Bad self-published books are probably more heavily criticized than fanfiction if anything. The term "vanity publishing" wasn't invented for nothing, you know. There's an actual book called Atlanta Nights that was specifically written as demonstration of nonexistent the standards are to have your crappy book published by some of these publishers. Look up garbage like Antigua: The Land of Fairies Wizards and Heroes, Keeper Martin's Tale, or the terrible book my mom's friend wrote that I couldn't read past page two. The rise of self publishing has allowed some notoriously dreadful pieces of what I guess passes as literature in a broad definition.

Bohandas

2017-08-19, 01:29 AM

BWR

2017-08-19, 05:28 AM

Also, "mary sue" is the generic term for all poorly written overpowered self-insert/power-fantasy/wish-fulfillment characters, male or female character, male or female writer. Nobody actually uses "gary stu"

Indeed. About 237 000 instances of 'nobody' compared to the 437 000 somebodies who use 'mary sue', according to a quick Google search.

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-19, 08:46 AM

Look up garbage like Antigua: The Land of Fairies Wizards and Heroes, Keeper Martin's Tale, or the terrible book my mom's friend wrote that I couldn't read past page two.
Okay, I have to check those out now.

kyoryu

2017-08-19, 10:54 AM

Sorry, maybe that was a bit over he top. It's just that ever since [political issues relating to big content that I probably shouldn't go into] I have difficulty thinking of commercial content creation as anything other than the tool of Mammon

No worries. It's been a rough coupla weeks. Sorry if I was snippy, I'm also dealing with some insane professional and personal stuff on top of the political insanity.

Amazon

2017-08-19, 12:16 PM

Mary sues are ok for me as long as they are not insurable and arrogant about it, just look at the doctor and superman.

JBPuffin

2017-08-19, 04:44 PM

Speaking of allegedly false premises, this part doesn't exactly do a lot to dispel the allegation that the average fan fiction author is fussy and self-important.

That being said, I do appreciate the input from a writer of fan fiction, a perspective that isn't well represented in this thread. However, if you're going to assert that "all" (more than 30) responses are "based off false premises," it would be helpful to make a few more specific assertions, particularly since I actually found many of the responses to be completely consistent with the factual assertions you make in your post.

The two aren't causative - I'm fussy and self-important for other reasons :smallsmile:. I also was only addressing the first post, no one else's necessarily.

danzibr

2017-08-19, 05:29 PM

Well, I don't have much to add (most is crap, some is good), but I do want to say quite a while ago I read a Phantasy Star IV fanfic which I really liked and wanted to read again. Alas, I can't find it.

Lacuna Caster

2017-08-20, 08:14 AM

Btw, I don't think Creator's Pets or Mary Sue-ish traits necessarily destroy any given story. Sometimes, that is the whole point. Miller's Batman fits perfectly his own enclosed story. It simply doesn't fit too well on the bigger scheme of Batman stories. So you could say I think TDKR makes a good fanfic :)
Oh, on the subject of the bigger scheme of Batman stories- Ron Edwards is doing a series (https://adeptpress.wordpress.com/2017/08/20/kill-kill-kill/) on the history/development of 80s vigilantes in both comics and RPGs.

But yeah, the point about fanfic is valid. I think the other end of the scale would be the alluded-to All-Star Superman, which on balance I quite enjoyed and has a definite genteel charm, but it's notable that (A) Superman's impending death adds a lot of 'oomph' to his time-commitments, and (B) Batman is totally absent from the proceedings. Somewhere in the middle you get Red Son, where the best of intentions collide with the realities of global peacekeeping in a reasonably credible manner, and although Lex's vindication is... problematic, I think the thrust is that Superman's efforts are misguided but far from futile.

I'll note that the very earliest version of Superman was (A) anything but shy about politics and (B) didn't have to shoulder the burden of moral perfection, so he's a very different beast. His solutions could range between the questionable and ridiculous, but he was legitimately committed to solving the most pressing social problems of his time as best he could, which together with the faint air of parody makes him very endearing to me. (The earliest version of Batman, for comparison, leaves me curiously cold, and Wonder Woman baffles me completely.)

I guess the point I'm getting at is that, while I'm not happy with how Schuster & Siegel or Bill Finger were treated, and we'll never know what might have come from a singular creator's vision, I think the world would be a poorer place without the various refracted takes on the basic premise.

2D8HP

2017-09-09, 01:42 PM

I've loved many homages, pastiches, shared world anthologies, and the like that have been printed, and may be called "fan fictions", and while I find the medium awkward, I've enjoyed some stories that authors have made available on-line (though I've always learned of the authors from print first).

Since Doyle came up with "Sherlock Holmes", thousands of homages have been published, many of which I've enjoyed more than the Doyle stories!

Even in Lovecraft's lifetime other authors have done"Cthullu Mythos" stories.

Here's a Cthullu/Holmes hybrid!:

Study in Emerald by Neil Gaiman, PDF (http://www.neilgaiman.com/mediafiles/exclusive/shortstories/emerald.pdf)

Dacia Brabant

2017-09-10, 09:23 AM

I'm a big fan of the Mythos for that reason as well, but it has to be acknowledged that it's different from just about anything else in that respect, since its creator intended it to be an open setting where other writers could introduce their own elements and link them to each other if they so wished. In that sense, nothing that's set in the Mythos is fanfiction unless it includes material from published works outside of the Mythos that aren't in the public domain.

So, something like Children of an Elder God would be fanfiction because it's based on Neon Genesis Evangelion, a fully trademarked brand, while A Study in Emerald would not be since Sherlock Holmes is public domain.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-10, 12:53 PM

people hate fan fictions because people want to at least pretend to make an original setting before pretending to make an original story so that they can settle in to watch the same plots get played all over again but in that different setting. its just considered polite to at least make the effort at originality, even if it fails.

thats why things like Eragon gets published and fan fiction doesn't. Then nerds can hate the things that do actually get published for entirely different reasons. got to have variety in that endless stew of criticism at every piece of media that ever existed.

and why my fan fiction is probably horrible because its about pokemon, even though every time I try to make an original setting I end up with a lot of worldbuilding but no plot or main character to really follow, so I'm trying fan fiction to work on plot and character stuff so that I can combine them one day. I bet I can show it to anyone in this thread and they will all confirm it.

Charlie696

2017-09-14, 09:25 PM

Most good fanfiction is hard to find ya know? Its a lot of sorting through Mary Sue bs, that is just character inserts.

Good fan fic is another story with the characters or another exploration into parts of the universe the canon doesnt explore often or at all

Red Leaf Games

2017-09-15, 03:48 AM

Besides there being a lot of bad fan fiction, my guess would be that it conflicts with canon. Personally I think fan fiction is a great starting point for new authors to flex there narrative muscles.

Knaight

2017-09-15, 11:13 AM

Besides there being a lot of bad fan fiction, my guess would be that it conflicts with canon. Personally I think fan fiction is a great starting point for new authors to flex there narrative muscles.

This is probably a reason for some people - but I know a number of people (myself included) who are openly contemptuous of the entire concept of canon and who still dislike fan fiction.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-15, 11:24 AM

Personally I think fan fiction is a great starting point for new authors to flex there narrative muscles.

This is an idea that seems valid on the surface, but (as pointed out, IIRC, by GRR Martin) comes with a big pitfall of danger.

The argument is that it removes some of the creation needed - you get to reuse someone else's setting and characters, leaving you with less work to do.

But the problem is, you can't flex your narrative muscles with someone else's characters. It is a heck of a lot more difficult to further develop characters that have already completed their character arc. That is why it's so often that sequels are worse than the original. Because if the original is a completed story, then there is nowhere else for the characters to go. If to that basic problem - that affects the original author as much as it does the fan - we add that the fan is not as familiar with the characters or the setting as the actual author, then the problems only compound from there.

Grey Wolf

Lord Raziere

2017-09-15, 01:28 PM

But the problem is, you can't flex your narrative muscles with someone else's characters. It is a heck of a lot more difficult to further develop characters that have already completed their character arc. That is why it's so often that sequels are worse than the original. Because if the original is a completed story, then there is nowhere else for the characters to go. If to that basic problem - that affects the original author as much as it does the fan - we add that the fan is not as familiar with the characters or the setting as the actual author, then the problems only compound from there.

only if you don't go the OC route. some of the better pokemon fan fics out there are completely original characters having their own journeys. OC fanfics are a good middle ground, because it makes it much more obvious when someone is a mary sue and when they are not.

kyoryu

2017-09-15, 01:36 PM

Personally I think fan fiction is a great starting point for new authors to flex there narrative muscles.

Sure.

That doesn't mean that it is really great for outside consumption, any more than any other writing exercise.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-15, 01:55 PM

Sure.

That doesn't mean that it is really great for outside consumption, any more than any other writing exercise.

A self-defeating sentiment. a writer has to show their works to someone eventually, or where would constructive critique or criticism come from to improve them? spend too long on trying to make your work perfect before any one sees, and no one ever will see it at all.

Knaight

2017-09-15, 02:40 PM

A self-defeating sentiment. a writer has to show their works to someone eventually, or where would constructive critique or criticism come from to improve them? spend too long on trying to make your work perfect before any one sees, and no one ever will see it at all.

There's a different between a writer's actual works and writing exercises. The writing exercises are essentially warm ups and tools to practice to keep skills up.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-15, 02:48 PM

There's a different between a writer's actual works and writing exercises. The writing exercises are essentially warm ups and tools to practice to keep skills up.

:smallconfused:

This has been stating facts theater?

Knaight

2017-09-16, 02:42 AM

:smallconfused:

This has been stating facts theater?

Then I'll connect those dots. Fanfiction is, in the particular context under discussion, a writing exercise. Writing exercises are just the things used to keep skills up when making actual works, and it's the actual works that are worth getting critique on. Thus the "self defeating sentiment" is nothing of the sort.

Keltest

2017-09-16, 08:11 AM

Then I'll connect those dots. Fanfiction is, in the particular context under discussion, a writing exercise. Writing exercises are just the things used to keep skills up when making actual works, and it's the actual works that are worth getting critique on. Thus the "self defeating sentiment" is nothing of the sort.

I suspect if you asked a fanfic writer who was serious about writing whether they wanted critiquing on their fanfiction, they would go "yes, please! Be as brutal as you can!" or some variant of that. Certainly they aren't writing the fanfiction for money, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth critiquing.

Hazyshade

2017-09-16, 08:58 AM

Why do people hate fanfictions?

The same reason people hate sequels, epilogues etc.

People want characters to stay the same forever.

The more you find out about a character, the less you can project onto them.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-16, 02:03 PM

Then I'll connect those dots. Fanfiction is, in the particular context under discussion, a writing exercise. Writing exercises are just the things used to keep skills up when making actual works, and it's the actual works that are worth getting critique on. Thus the "self defeating sentiment" is nothing of the sort.

So, a writer is just supposed to be somehow good enough to critiqued at all before they even show anyone?

I find that absurd.

Knaight

2017-09-16, 02:17 PM

So, a writer is just supposed to be somehow good enough to critiqued at all before they even show anyone?

I find that absurd.

It is absurd. It also bears no resemblance to what I said, which had to do with writing in multiple categories. If I write an actual story, then showing people and them critiquing it is valuable. The exercises done during that writing (e.g. paragraph long train of thought prompt response type stuff), not so much.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-16, 02:52 PM

It is absurd. It also bears no resemblance to what I said, which had to do with writing in multiple categories. If I write an actual story, then showing people and them critiquing it is valuable. The exercises done during that writing (e.g. paragraph long train of thought prompt response type stuff), not so much.

I don't see what the problem with fan fic is following this logic. Given that by most peoples logic that nothing is truly original anyways, why bother pretending? do you want the illusion of originality before you even critique anything?

fan fic doesn't really seem to be prompt stuff, people do indeed write long stories from it with coherent plots. there has to be a step between full original story and just writing the prompts.

ZamielVanWeber

2017-09-17, 06:34 AM

Mary sues are ok for me as long as they are not insurable and arrogant about it, just look at the doctor and superman.

The Doctor was never supposed to be a Mary Sue (in the old series he made mistakes, some of which were both colossal and irreparable). When Steven Moffat became head writer he generally focused on the Doctor being an epically amazing dude that does epic those that are just so awesome and people do crazy stuff to help him because he is just so peachy keen (NERD RAGE!). He thankfully settled down a bit in Season 7 and did a much better job overall with Capaldi. (As a side note I thought the Anniversary special was drek on multiple levels but fixed it with the power of head canon.)

As for superman I find he is at his best when viewed from a morality perspective or the author toys with the consequences of having such insane power (such as the world made of carboard speech or in Kingdom Come). He is only Mary Sue ish when the author just goes "whee superpowers yay!"

On the subject of Mary Sues, one big winner in Iron Man when he appeared in Guardians of the Galaxy. He beat Thanos by himself after Thanos beat the Guardians and then temporarily joined them. At worse he was as good as any of them at every they did and at best he was literally better than the entire team combined, by himself. I was told this was because an Iron Man author was moved on GotG and was angry about it.

On topic: saying "everyone hates fanfics" feels really inaccurate. The likely is that people who hate fanfics are far more vocal than people who like them or are ambivalent to them. Unless someone tries to purge fan fiction from the Internet or tries to force me to read it my ambivalence is not threatened so I generally do not care.