Help with 'balanced' class

[Satherian]

So, I've been playing the Mystic class for a while (Since v1.0), but in order to 'balance' the latest version, my DM obliterated the class and I feel that the changes are too severe (listed below). Should I request my DM to revert some of the changes (if so, how do I bring it up)? Or should I get rid of this character (easy, since they're a tank) just switch to a PH class that's better at tanking than the Immortal (Like Barbarian).

The original class can be found at the WotC Unearthed Arcana website. (Sorry, can't post link)

Changes:
- Removed 'Mystic Recovery' (Reason: I removed Mystical Recovery because I feel it gives to much self healing to a class that doesn't need to be hardier. It might be a good ability for a future subclass)
- Changed ability to learn Disciplines from *any* other subclass (e.g. As an Immortal, I can only choose Immortal and Avatar disciplines)
- Telepathy was allowed to have creatures respond
- Immortal modified to allow for Martial weapons and Medium armor (Note: Change is necessary for character)
- Added Verbal and Somatic component to *almost* every psionic 'spell' (Reason: This is to keep them more in line with spells)
- Added Concentration to various psionic 'spells' (Reason: This is to keep them more in line with spells)
- Added Material component to various psionic 'spells' (Reason: This is to keep them more in line with spells)

Many of those other odd changes are mostly to have the psionic 'spells' match their originals.

What do you guys think?

[imanidiot]

I wouldn't want to play a Mystic with those changes. I probably wouldn't play a Mystic anyway though, so take that into consideration.

[DeTess]

Which spells did he add concentration to? Afaik the most recent version already requires concentration for those that need it.

Did he add components with a gold cost, and if so, to which spells?

I agree that requiring somatic and verbal components is odd. With that addition, you might as well play a sorcerer or wizard, and be significantly more dangerous at high levels.

What level are you playing at, incidentally?

[Bugado25]

- Changed ability to learn Disciplines from *any* other subclass (e.g. As an Immortal, I can only choose Immortal and Avatar disciplines)
I don't understand why people think this is necessary. No spellcaster has limited spell schools (other than EK and AT, but they are 1/3rd casters, not full) but, for some reason, every time someone talk about the Mystic they want to limit discipline choices.



- Added Verbal and Somatic component to *almost* every psionic 'spell' (Reason: This is to keep them more in line with spells)
This is the only change from your DM I agree. Not having any way to see that someone is using psionics can be very broken if the player wants to abuse it.



- Added Concentration to various psionic 'spells' (Reason: This is to keep them more in line with spells)
- Added Material component to various psionic 'spells' (Reason: This is to keep them more in line with spells)

Many of those other odd changes are mostly to have the psionic 'spells' match their originals.

What do you guys think?
Can't comment on here without knowing the exact changes.

Overall, I think you DM went the wrong way trying to "balance" the class.

The class needs no changes on their features, they are fine. What they need is to add some kind of way to tell someone is using psionics, weaken some of the disciplines and maybe lower a bit the number of disciplines known.

[DeTess]

I don't understand why people think this is necessary. No spellcaster has limited spell schools (other than EK and AT, but they are 1/3rd casters, not full) but, for some reason, every time someone talk about the Mystic they want to limit discipline choices.



I'm going to play devils advocate here for a second and point out that all phb classes have limited spell selection. Clerics don't get too many good blasting options compared to wizards, wizards on the other hand don't get much in the way if healing. Both bards and paladins have somewhat limited spell selection.

Mystics get healing buffing and blasting all out of the box with very few limiters, unless you cut down on disciplines known.

[Koren]

Not going to lie, I haven't read too far into Mystics but what I do know makes me think Wizards didn't want them to be just another caster. Trying to treat the psionics like spells makes me question why one wouldn't just play any other spellcaster. If the balance issue is using Psionics stealthily (which I understand how that could be game breaking for a creative player with what I have seen) then why not add something like an obviously visible aura around the Mystic and/or what is being affected?

Really if he had such a huge problem with so much of the class he should have just said "not allowed"

[Bugado25]

I'm going to play devils advocate here for a second and point out that all phb classes have limited spell selection. Clerics don't get too many good blasting options compared to wizards, wizards on the other hand don't get much in the way if healing. Both bards and paladins have somewhat limited spell selection.

Mystics get healing buffing and blasting all out of the box with very few limiters, unless you cut down on disciplines known.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. Every list has gaps, including the mystic one. Limiting the class to one specific sets of disciplines is more alike limiting evocation wizards to only evocation spells, than limiting wizards only to wizard spells.

The problem of the mystic is not that the list is too broad. The problem is that there are an incredible number of problematic disciplines. Limiting the mystic to a specific set of disciplines does not really solve that. I think most of the problems that exist can be easily solved by removing 1 or 2 damage dice, adding 1 or 2 points to the cost of the spells or changing around bonus actions to actions.

I would still lower a bit the number of disciplines just to make the number of effects known a bit closer to other spellcaster. Most disciplines have around 4-5 effects. I think having the equivalent to 40-50 spells is a little too much. Lowering the number to disciplines to 8 would make it a little better in my opinion (The number is still higher than other spellcasters, but the limitation of having to take spells on packs compensates that).

Maybe 2 at 1st (1 random and one from subclass) and 1 every 3 levels. Or only remove the extra disciplines from subclasses (Although I would like some kind of incentinve to picking your order disciplines)

So, I think that limiting the mystic to specific sets of discipline is an arbitrary nerf that does not solve any of the real problems of the class.

I agree that should exist more incentives for each subclasses to pick their specific sets of disciplines, but removing the ability to take other disciplines is not the right way to do it IHMO.

[Satherian]

Which spells did he add concentration to? Afaik the most recent version already requires concentration for those that need it.

Did he add components with a gold cost, and if so, to which spells?

I agree that requiring somatic and verbal components is odd. With that addition, you might as well play a sorcerer or wizard, and be significantly more dangerous at high levels.

What level are you playing at, incidentally?

Not many of the spells have gain concentration. The biggest was 'Bestial Form'.

Gold cost was added to Energy Immunity (Also changed to 1 min.) and Restore Vigor (Equivalent of Lesser Restoration)

We are currently level 8. (I'll try to get a Google Doc of the changes if people want)

[PeteNutButter]

Did you know these changes going in?

Why did you make a Mystic in the first place? Is it because you wanted to play a psion or is it because they are overpowered? (I've nothing against playing what's strong.)

If you just wanted to be strong, but feel like you aren't, I'd say best bet is to change characters to a phb class, provided the DM didn't change those as well. That why you know what you are getting into, and it has seen a lot of playtesting.

As it stands you could still make a very powerful mystic with those constraints. It wouldn't be how I would nerf the class, but it does need to be nerfed.

[Hrugner]

psionics are decidedly weaker than spells with the trade off being that they are more or less permanent and unobtrusive. I'm not really sure I see the benefit in removing their distinguishing feature without elevating them to full caster status. I wouldn't keep the character with those changes.

[Jerrykhor]

Balance is always subjective, but I do agree with you that your DM went too far in nerfing the Mystic. I play a Soul Knife in my long term campaign, and I can share with you some of the changes me and my DM has agreed on.

-Mystical Recovery: Changed to give Temp HP. This was a brilliant change as Temp Hp don't stack, and it helps give me some much needed survivability. Might be redundant for an Immortal, since they have Psionic Resilience.

-I have custom Soul Knife Disciplines! I can learn any Discipline I want, but i chose to stick to the ones that made sense for my character.

-Hone the Blade not being a Discipline has interesting results: It won't trigger Mystical Recovery, but it is not limited by the Psi Limit. +4 weapons at 3rd level!

Your DM is ridiculous for adding VSM requirements. A psion that requires VSM is not a psion. Their powers come from the mind, of course it made sense not to require VSM. You don't add Plane Shift, Banishment, Polymorph and Wish to martials just to bring them in line with other classes, don't you? There are other ways to make it look obvious that the Psion is using his abilities to cheat at stuff, like making their eyes or their tatoos glow, making some colorful aura glow from their head, etc.

I don't think your DM is a smart person. I mean, he added Material component requirements for a class that don't start with arcane foci or component pouch? And his 'balancing' didn't even address the truly overpowered stuff like Nomadic Step, Nomadic Mind, Psychic Assault, Occluded Mind etc. I mean, if he had to nerf you this bad, he probably doesn't know how to design encounters that his players can't just solve by pressing their 'I win' buttons. And trust me, the wizard class has plenty of them. So did your DM nerf wizards too?

[Satherian]

Did you know these changes going in?

Why did you make a Mystic in the first place? Is it because you wanted to play a psion or is it because they are overpowered? (I've nothing against playing what's strong.)

If you just wanted to be strong, but feel like you aren't, I'd say best bet is to change characters to a phb class, provided the DM didn't change those as well. That why you know what you are getting into, and it has seen a lot of playtesting.

I knew there would be some modifications back when we started and Mystic was still v1. I mostly went with Mystic because I heard about the strangeness of Psions in 3.5 (From this comic, actually) and wanted to try them in 5e. (Sadly, a lot of the cool custom Psion items are nowhere to be found)

I just rolled up a 'backup' character which is a PHB tank (He has not touched any PHB stuff).

The good new is that once the Mystic is fully officially released, he says the changes will be next to nothing. (Except for minor stuff like letting Immortals have medium armor, etc)


Balance is always subjective, but I do agree with you that your DM went too far in nerfing the Mystic. I play a Soul Knife in my long term campaign, and I can share with you some of the changes me and my DM has agreed on.

-Mystical Recovery: Changed to give Temp HP. This was a brilliant change as Temp Hp don't stack, and it helps give me some much needed survivability. Might be redundant for an Immortal, since they have Psionic Resilience.

-I have custom Soul Knife Disciplines! I can learn any Discipline I want, but i chose to stick to the ones that made sense for my character.

-Hone the Blade not being a Discipline has interesting results: It won't trigger Mystical Recovery, but it is not limited by the Psi Limit. +4 weapons at 3rd level!

Your DM is ridiculous for adding VSM requirements. A psion that requires VSM is not a psion. Their powers come from the mind, of course it made sense not to require VSM. You don't add Plane Shift, Banishment, Polymorph and Wish to martials just to bring them in line with other classes, don't you? There are other ways to make it look obvious that the Psion is using his abilities to cheat at stuff, like making their eyes or their tatoos glow, making some colorful aura glow from their head, etc.

I don't think your DM is a smart person. I mean, he added Material component requirements for a class that don't start with arcane foci or component pouch? And his 'balancing' didn't even address the truly overpowered stuff like Nomadic Step, Nomadic Mind, Psychic Assault, Occluded Mind etc. I mean, if he had to nerf you this bad, he probably doesn't know how to design encounters that his players can't just solve by pressing their 'I win' buttons. And trust me, the wizard class has plenty of them. So did your DM nerf wizards too?

Mystical Recovery is one that I was looking forward to, because it would really give the 'Immortal' it's punch, though I get a good amount of Temp HP from Psionic Resilience.

The VSM part is the big one that made me say 'Why not just do a spellcaster-like tank?' (Like Eldrich Knight or Protection Cleric)

Like above, here's hoping WotC release the full version of Mystic soon

[Koren]

I'm actually really curious now, is there a reason he didn't just outright not allow the Mystic UA? It sounds like that would have been a much easier solution for someone who doesn't want what they feel is an over powered class in their game.