phantasma force

[Chugger]

Going way back I've had trouble with this spell, but the 5e version seems possibly usable. I like that it's an Int (Investigation) check against the casters DC - is that just a funny way of saying a saving throw or something else please?

(and yes referring to the other post on illusions, _this_ spell is an illusion totally in one creature's head and not a hologram or anything like that - but the phb says there are different kinds of illusions)

Now the question is what do I do with this _very_ open-ended spell if there's no obvious chasm on which to put a non-existent bridge?

I guess I need to go for some form of control, because 1-6 psychic damage a round isn't all that good. Okay, if I can talk to the target, I cause it to see an "angel" or a "wraith like being holding a scythe" and it can talk to the victim (the spell has a full sensory range) and tell him it's been sent to warn him that if he continues fighting here right now he will die - far before his time is due - and that he must leave immediately and get as far away from this fight as possible to continue living. Okay, if the target fails its roll, would that work? Would some DMs make me "roll a performance check" on top of the saving throw? Basically what I just did was the same as a suggestion spell (but I'm stupid and didn't take suggestion - I took pf). Are DMs gonna get all angsty and think "not what spell is intended to do" and put nasty things in my breakfast cereal, so to speak? I.e. find some way to ruin the spell so it won't work this way?

This is a fantasy world full of supernatural occurrences - if the target believes this thing is real and it's telling him it will die if it keeps fighting here - and let me add the target is like a corrupt city guard or normal orc or something - it's not a fanatical cultist on a mission (I could see a cultist choosing to ignore the death message - it must obey or else) - and I'd try a different illusion on such a creature.

I could see the creature asking "who are you? who sent you?" and "you will find out soon enough who sent me, foolish mortal! You have been warned, now flee!" should be enough to get rid of this extra combatant. Or ... am I just not grasping how much DMs really hate these kinds of spells?! :smallbiggrin:

Let's say we're fighting three ogres and I want to try to remove one from the fight for a few rounds at least with PF. Maybe I don't want it to run away forever (we don't get its exp and loot if it goes and never comes back - whereas with the previous example maybe we didn't want to kill that city guard who was helping, oh, some assassins for some reason, anyway). So I wanna try to use PF to "control" an ogre - not have it run away forever - just keep it out of the fight a while. And I don't speak ogre or giant - and it doesn't speak common - i.e. I can't talk to it in reality or in the illusion. (and what if I were an old one warlock who can seemingly get around language issues and speak to it telepathically - can this be bent to work here? probably not)

What would you do - if you had to cast phantasmal force to control the ogre - to keep it out of the fight at least a few rounds?

[JackPhoenix]

What would you do - if you had to cast phantasmal force to control the ogre - to keep it out of the fight at least a few rounds?

Propably ring (or cage) of fire surrounding him. Less likely he'll just ignore it like he would something just talking to him to convince him to back off, or that he'll try to break like normal physical object (and think he succeeded, because there's nothing to actually physically hold him), he'll believe the fire is real, and even stupid ogre should know that fire hurts... he may still decide to just run through, though. I would do it in a way he would "feel" the heat, but *not* take damage, otherwise he'll likely do run through the fire, risking greater, but quick burns instead of being slowly roasted alive.

Another possibility is some creature fighting him, ideally something ogres hate, if not, at least taunting him. Just make sure the target dodges ogre's attacks, and hits ocassionaly: you'll actually get to do the psychic damage this way, and given the victim is an ogre, he's likely to stay focused on the closest threat, especially if it's annoying enough. I wouldn't use the same trick on a smarter, more tactically adept or disciplined opponent, who would focus on a greater threat.

[Quoxis]

I had a teammate who, as a result of one of our adeventures, became claustrophobic and afraid of coffins (figure out what happened to cause this).

Anyway, one day he attacked me, and i had just learned that spell, so i thought to myself "why not?" and phantasmal forced him into an illusory coffin which seemed to be shrinking. He took some damage, was scared ****less, and the GM considered whether that'd be worth an alignment change. Good times.

Anyway, long story short: most creatures fear something. With enough (meta) knowledge about that stuff, you can effectively try to scare them away. You know a personal fear? Use that, be DC's Scarecrow. If you know your opponent is weak to something, for example to fire, it's safe to assume that creature won't run right into it or question the reality of fire, but get the hell away from it.

Another idea: make yourself.
Make an illusion of yourself attack the opponent and get away while they are occupied.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I usually.go for something specifically geared towards the opponent.

Perhals a bear trap clamped on the leg of an evil ranger. I bave done the coffin thing. Think I put a giant shoe on top of our drow rogue once like a foot stompimg a spider. The holding your opponent still and either prone or upright part depending on the situation is important to me.

My DM seems to dislike the spell and gives me an auto fail if he deams it ill conceived though.

[Lombra]

Our party wizard once used that spell on a troll to make it see a fat greasy dwarf that kept managing to escape his grapples or evade his attacks while biting it. Low-int monsters are fun to mess with.

[Desteplo]

If a coffin, he'll fall through and think "oh it wasn't latched"

-you could have a billion tiny spiders crawling over the skin. He'll try to scratch himself off but still feel the itchy legs

-go for senses. Not just objects. Itchiness is easier to pull off. Think bad drug trip

-if you are going to do a cage or something to a silent image. Because it's a bigger Illusion. And it could affect multiple people

[Koren]

Remembering this spell and reading through it again, my immediate first thought was to cause dumber creatures to attack each other. Maybe have the target see something incredibly threatening come up to it, standing between it and its ally.

Conjure a wizard casting spells and preparing something huge between two archers.

For your Ogre control, give it an enemy to keep it busy and drawing it away.

[Millstone85]

I like that it's an Int (Investigation) check against the casters DC - is that just a funny way of saying a saving throw or something else please?Ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws are a fundamental division of typical d20 rolls in the game.

If phantasmal force says the target can use its action to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check against the caster's spell save DC, then it is indeed an Intelligence (Investigation) check, not an Intelligence saving throw, even if it is made against a spell save DC.

This is important because the target might be proficient in Intelligence saving throws but not be proficient in the Investigation skill, or the opposite.

Note that phantasmal force also calls for an Intelligence saving throw, at a different point.

[Easy_Lee]

You need to ask your DM this question, what kind of thing he thinks would work. You can end up in a ****ty situation where all of the clever things you think of aren't good enough for the DM in question. Some DMs, myself included, try to reward players for engaging with the game. Others just do whatever they feel like. You need to figure it out who you're dealing with and what he considers plausible

[BillyBobShorton]

One of the most powerful low level spells in the game. It essentially alters the reality against an enemy in a limited capacity. But if they BELIEVE it, it IS real-to the victim, at least. Limited only to your imagination as minor illusion or silent image. The mechanics remain the same regardless, so unless you have a **** DM, anything you create should work (and be allowed to) as long as the save and check rolls go your way. Great in conjunction with Hex.

(With my campanions' help) I used it once to kill/finish off a young black dragon for 4 rounds of a gnome biting its genitals. Black Dragons are dumb and no match for a Bard.

[Rebonack]

From what I've read on Sage Advice about how this thing works, and from my own puzzling over it, Phantom Force has several properties worth considering.

1) The phantasm must fit within a 10 foot cube, however it can move freely after you cast it.

2) The phantasm can not be controlled by you. You essentially program the sort of creature or object you want while describing the phantasm and then it acts on its own. You can't see it, only the target can.

3) The phantasm can potentially apply conditions. Blinding the target (flaming bag over their head) is the classic example. Others are possible, though a bit more tenuous. Let's say you create a hellish animated chain glowing with infernal heat that restrains the target. Since the chain isn't physical, it can't actually impose the restrained condition. The target, however, believes that they're restrained. The natural reaction would be to use their Action to make a Dex or Str check to try to escape, which they'll succeed since (again) the chain isn't physical. But they just wasted their Action. And on your turn you can have the phantasmal chain 'restrain' them again.

With a DM who hates on illusions, you might be told that PF can't move out of its casting area. Or that it can't block line of sight at all. Or that it can't impose any sort of condition since no conditions are mentioned in its entry. In that case it is good for exactly one thing, making a ten foot wide zone that deals 1d6 per round to one creature if they stand in it. I would strongly suggest running several scenarios past your DM regarding PF if you're planning on taking it. Remind them that it should be at least as powerful as Hold Person or Blindness in terms of its ability to cripple the target.

[jas61292]

Personally, I am of the school of thought that, no, you cannot inflict conditions with this spell. Yet I still consider it especially powerful, because you can manipulate how creatures behave. Trying to hold a creature down will only cause them to try and escape, in which they will succeed without effort. However, holding their attention with something they fear, distracting them with something they would prioritize higher than you, or something else of that nature can be invaluable. And it can give you solutions to more situations than almost any other lower level spell.

[Rebonack]

Personally, I am of the school of thought that, no, you cannot inflict conditions with this spell. Yet I still consider it especially powerful, because you can manipulate how creatures behave. Trying to hold a creature down will only cause them to try and escape, in which they will succeed without effort. However, holding their attention with something they fear, distracting them with something they would prioritize higher than you, or something else of that nature can be invaluable. And it can give you solutions to more situations than almost any other lower level spell.

I'm curious. Would you rule that a phantasm of a fog cloud wouldn't count as a heavily obscured area for the afflicted target?

[jas61292]

I'm curious. Would you rule that a phantasm of a fog cloud wouldn't count as a heavily obscured area for the afflicted target?

I would allow that, because that is the same as a natural fog cloud. What I wouldn't allow would be a cloud that moves with them so as to always give them that condition, since that is effectively making it a more powerful Blindness/Deafness (same effect without the free saves every round). Same thing with the favorite suggestion of a paper bag over the head. That would not be allowed because it is simply trying to be another spell but better. Or rather, I would allow it, but moving would move you out from under it.

This spell can create something they perceive, and it should act as that thing really would. But it should not be able to simply be a better version of another spell of the same or higher level.

[Koren]

I'm curious. Would you rule that a phantasm of a fog cloud wouldn't count as a heavily obscured area for the afflicted target?

Logic dictates this would work, since it's only a visual. At that point isn't there a better alternative though? One where the target can't just pass a save to dispel the obscurity?

[Rebonack]

I would allow that, because that is the same as a natural fog cloud. What I wouldn't allow would be a cloud that moves with them so as to always give them that condition, since that is effectively making it a more powerful Blindness/Deafness (same effect without the free saves every round). Same thing with the favorite suggestion of a paper bag over the head. That would not be allowed because it is simply trying to be another spell but better. Or rather, I would allow it, but moving would move you out from under it.

This spell can create something they perceive, and it should act as that thing really would. But it should not be able to simply be a better version of another spell of the same or higher level.

Blindness doesn't use your Concentration slot, however. Given that, the power isn't out of line at all. If a creature is lost in an apparently endless sea of fog it's only a matter of time before they start using their Action to investigate, since they have nothing better to do. I guess it comes down to how much you think that Concentration factor is worth.

Then there's the fact that Blindness also scales with spell level while PF doesn't. That can be a pretty big factor for classes with a limited selection of spells known.



Logic dictates this would work, since it's only a visual. At that point isn't there a better alternative though? One where the target can't just pass a save to dispel the obscurity?

Oh totally. I was just curious whether Jas would allow the spell to obscure line of sight or not.

[jas61292]

Blindness doesn't use your Concentration slot, however. Given that, the power isn't out of line at all. If a creature is lost in an apparently endless sea of fog it's only a matter of time before they start using their Action to investigate, since they have nothing better to do. I guess it comes down to how much you think that Concentration factor is worth.

Then there's the fact that Blindness also scales with spell level while PF doesn't. That can be a pretty big factor for classes with a limited selection of spells known.

Hmm... I actually never realized Blindness was not concentration. I'll need to think about that more then. Still not sure I love it what with Blindness still giving free saves every round, but it is something to think about.

[SharkForce]

once upon a time there was a "this spell is amazing" way to interpret the spell, a "this spell is mediocre at best" interpretation, and a "this spell is saved from being the worst spell, but only because there are spells like witch bolt which do even less than this" interpretation.

a recent JC tweet ruled out the amazing interpretation entirely (when it says the target rationalizes things, it means they move through it and come up with a reason why, not that they rationalize themselves into being unable to move through it, which would have made it pretty strong).

note that the tweet further specified that the spell states which conditions it can cause... which makes for a grand total of nothing, because the spell doesn't list any conditions whatsoever. and blinded is a condition. so no blinding people.

so, instead you now have something that works mostly like every other illusion except it only works on one person. and can do some pathetically low damage. my advice is that unless you know for certain your DM thinks JC is a moron and rules opposite to everything JC tweets, you should avoid this spell like the plague. it's going to struggle to ever even be mediocre, and there are plenty of level 2 spells that scale better and are capable of causing negative conditions, and there are plenty of better illusions that work just as well to make a distraction (which may be not at all). the only thing the spell does better than other illusions would be the damage. and if you want to blow your concentration on damage, there are better options.

[jas61292]

once upon a time there was a "this spell is amazing" way to interpret the spell, a "this spell is mediocre at best" interpretation, and a "this spell is saved from being the worst spell, but only because there are spells like witch bolt which do even less than this" interpretation.

a recent JC tweet ruled out the amazing interpretation entirely (when it says the target rationalizes things, it means they move through it and come up with a reason why, not that they rationalize themselves into being unable to move through it, which would have made it pretty strong).

note that the tweet further specified that the spell states which conditions it can cause... which makes for a grand total of nothing, because the spell doesn't list any conditions whatsoever. and blinded is a condition. so no blinding people.

so, instead you now have something that works mostly like every other illusion except it only works on one person. and can do some pathetically low damage. my advice is that unless you know for certain your DM thinks JC is a moron and rules opposite to everything JC tweets, you should avoid this spell like the plague. it's going to struggle to ever even be mediocre, and there are plenty of level 2 spells that scale better and are capable of causing negative conditions, and there are plenty of better illusions that work just as well to make a distraction (which may be not at all). the only thing the spell does better than other illusions would be the damage. and if you want to blow your concentration on damage, there are better options.

This is a way over simplification. Phantasmal Force is amazing. Causing conditions is not needed. The rationalization is great. It is for distracting and holding the attention of foes, not immobilizing or incapacitating them. And with smart play, it is unrivaled. This just means you need to know the opponent and know how best to use it. There is not a generic "I win" way to use it, and that is a good thing.

[Easy_Lee]

This is a way over simplification. Phantasmal Force is amazing. Causing conditions is not needed. The rationalization is great. It is for distracting and holding the attention of foes, not immobilizing or incapacitating them. And with smart play, it is unrivaled. This just means you need to know the opponent and know how best to use it. There is not a generic "I win" way to use it, and that is a good thing.

It depends on the DM more than the monster it's used against. That's why you need to ask your DM how he rules it.

[Chugger]

Thanks much. Great suggestions and stuff to consider! Maybe going Hold Person and/or Suggestion is better. Or blindness. In module gaming (which is a lot of my gaming atm) you never know who your dm will be - there is a pool of dm's - and the dm's are under pressure to move the adventure while keeping it balanced and challenging - and I see a lot of "that's a fringe spell no you can't break this encounter that way" type response. And who can blame them?

I like the idea of a pf of a nasty, taunting paladin or vicious little gnome rogue or something attacking the Ogre to "control" it. The Ogre swings its club at a phantasm it can't hit or hurt. It doesn't impose a "condition" on the ogre but hurts it while keeping it out of combat with real party members for a few rounds, which is what other second level spells do.

Well, Hold Person is now kind of "Kill Person." They're paralyzed but likely for only one round. Instead of being a crowd control spell, as it was back in the day, hold person is now a "quick, get your adv attack/crit hits and kill him fast burn him down now" spell. The advantage of PF is - unless a DM is just going to shut down any version of it - it works on many things that aren't "humanoid" (HP is limited that way) and it works on many things that you can't talk to cuz of no shared language ("suggestion", which is very powerful, is limited that way).

My gosh with OA rules Dissonant Whispers can be a "death spell." Last week had a character zap a Giant w/ dis whisp - it failed and ran. Two or three meleers were on the giant and landed some wicked OA's on it (one did 24, which for the level was quite good). And it dropped dead. And it's only a lvl one warlock spell (or bard?). Anyway, other spells are very powerful, but PF is one of the spells that (probably for good reasons) provokes DM heavy-handedness (which is not a good reaction most of the time). But again the DMs I'm working with are stressed out and may have their brains so full of "interpreting the module stuff" and "keeping it moving and balanced" stuff that they just don't have enough mental energy left to devote to a more rational, considered response to illusions.

[SharkForce]

This is a way over simplification. Phantasmal Force is amazing. Causing conditions is not needed. The rationalization is great. It is for distracting and holding the attention of foes, not immobilizing or incapacitating them. And with smart play, it is unrivaled. This just means you need to know the opponent and know how best to use it. There is not a generic "I win" way to use it, and that is a good thing.

you can distract with regular illusions. which work on more than one target, and don't allow an initial save. the only thing you're losing is 1d6 damage per round, but heck, i'll trade 1d6 damage for unlimited targets (and also no initial saving throw to make the spell not work at all) any day of the week.

plus, if i know the target so well that i know it's greatest fear, *and* i know i'm going to face it, i shouldn't need *any* spells to distract it.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, Hold Person is now kind of "Kill Person." They're paralyzed but likely for only one round. Instead of being a crowd control spell, as it was back in the day, hold person is now a "quick, get your adv attack/crit hits and kill him fast burn him down now" spell.

Depends on how far back in the day you mean. In 3e, Hold x spells had the same effect of being "Kill x" spells, because the held victim would be coup de grace'd.

[SharkForce]

Depends on how far back in the day you mean. In 3e, Hold x spells had the same effect of being "Kill x" spells, because the held victim would be coup de grace'd.

same in 2nd AD&D. except in 2nd AD&D the duration was 2 rounds/level, and there were no additional saves, so you were in no rush.

[Koren]

you can distract with regular illusions. which work on more than one target, and don't allow an initial save. the only thing you're losing is 1d6 damage per round, but heck, i'll trade 1d6 damage for unlimited targets (and also no initial saving throw to make the spell not work at all) any day of the week.

plus, if i know the target so well that i know it's greatest fear, *and* i know i'm going to face it, i shouldn't need *any* spells to distract it.

This is true if you're focusing on the image alone, but Phantasmal Force covers all senses and even accommodates for improbabilities (like the book-given example of falling through the bridge). It also doesn't have any clause about the victim understanding with certainty that he was enchanted, so mix that and the improbability thing and you could have a MASSIVE amount of out-of-combat shenanigans.

[SharkForce]

This is true if you're focusing on the image alone, but Phantasmal Force covers all senses and even accommodates for improbabilities (like the book-given example of falling through the bridge). It also doesn't have any clause about the victim understanding with certainty that he was enchanted, so mix that and the improbability thing and you could have a MASSIVE amount of out-of-combat shenanigans.

yes, of course, it covers all sorts of things, except that you can just move right through everything it creates. sure, you'll come up with a reason why it should have happened. you still just went right through it. and it doesn't really work better than other illusions in non-combat situation, unless your non-combat situation involves a single person. and involves something that fits entirely within a 10 foot cube. i mean, there are situations where it could be useful. but we're talking extremely rare here. i mean, the chasm the bridge is going to go across has to be less than 10 feet (you're going to need some part of the bridge sitting on solid ground as well). that isn't exactly encouraging.

the JC tweet basically means this spell is at best mediocre, and that's assuming you have an accomadating DM... meanwhile, if you have an accomadating DM, other illusions are just going to be straight-up better.

[Chugger]

That's right, I completely forgot - you could just throat-slit a slept or held creature.

So what about this use of PF against a creature I can talk to that I want to control - it sees an imp materialize in front of it, and the imp says "My master's summoning a demon that will wipe out those guys (nods at party), but it will kill you too if it sees you. Quick, hide over there - keep your head totally down - and when my master shouts 'rhinoceros' it means it's safe for you to come out and help plunder their dead bodies. Hurry - hide!" A creature might not believe that a high level caster has happened upon the fight and is helping him out in this way - but - isn't that what the Int DC is for?

What about a PF of green slime falling on a creature? It "hurts" (psychic damage) and if he "scrapes it off" more falls on him. The limit - he'd have to know what green slime is. He could move from where it's "dripping" but the PF could have it reappear there - as if he didn't quite get it all and it is growing back. This would serve to tie up a creature and take it out of the fight a while.

I could try doing the PF of a burly fighter who grapples the creature continually - even if the creature breaks free the fighter re-grapples and bruises him so much he takes the 1 to 6 psychic damage.

A large constrictor snake - same effect.

I think trying to impose an actual condition on a target of PF is possibly going too far with most DMs, as they'll feel it's an abuse - even if it is very creative - except being grappled is an effect. Well its movement would not be zero if it tried to move, and it would rationalize breaking free enough of the burly fighter that it can move, dragging the fighter with it.

Stinging bugs, big snake, octopus, grappling thing - as long as you get the victim of the pf so concerned about the phantasm the spell could be worth it in that "dividing and conquering" is still a very valid and basic tactic for 5e (as it's always been for dnd). As long as one of the creatures you're fighting doesn't fight party members it's being "controlled" - even if a formal effect or condition is not on it.

Can you think of better ways?

[Chugger]

(the reason to fight for pf is that it's an INT save (or DC - I'm still trying to get around why the DC part is worded so funny - I guess if a creature has an "investigation bonus" on top of it's int score it gets that bonus to its DC - but most creatures have low Int.) - it works on creatures you can't speak to (unlike suggestion, which otherwise is extremely powerful) - and it works on creatures that aren't humanoid (but not all creatures of course).)

[Rebonack]

That's right, I completely forgot - you could just throat-slit a slept or held creature.

So what about this use of PF against a creature I can talk to that I want to control - it sees an imp materialize in front of it, and the imp says "My master's summoning a demon that will wipe out those guys (nods at party), but it will kill you too if it sees you. Quick, hide over there - keep your head totally down - and when my master shouts 'rhinoceros' it means it's safe for you to come out and help plunder their dead bodies. Hurry - hide!" A creature might not believe that a high level caster has happened upon the fight and is helping him out in this way - but - isn't that what the Int DC is for?

What about a PF of green slime falling on a creature? It "hurts" (psychic damage) and if he "scrapes it off" more falls on him. The limit - he'd have to know what green slime is. He could move from where it's "dripping" but the PF could have it reappear there - as if he didn't quite get it all and it is growing back. This would serve to tie up a creature and take it out of the fight a while.

I could try doing the PF of a burly fighter who grapples the creature continually - even if the creature breaks free the fighter re-grapples and bruises him so much he takes the 1 to 6 psychic damage.

A large constrictor snake - same effect.

I think trying to impose an actual condition on a target of PF is possibly going too far with most DMs, as they'll feel it's an abuse - even if it is very creative - except being grappled is an effect. Well its movement would not be zero if it tried to move, and it would rationalize breaking free enough of the burly fighter that it can move, dragging the fighter with it.

Stinging bugs, big snake, octopus, grappling thing - as long as you get the victim of the pf so concerned about the phantasm the spell could be worth it in that "dividing and conquering" is still a very valid and basic tactic for 5e (as it's always been for dnd). As long as one of the creatures you're fighting doesn't fight party members it's being "controlled" - even if a formal effect or condition is not on it.

Can you think of better ways?

If you're up against a SUPER conservative interpretation of PF, your best generic illusion is probably an iron cube-cell with incandescent walls radiating intense heat. The creature won't want to touch it. The thing is so hot they'll get burned before they even contact the metal (1d6 psy damage). That'll encourage them to huddle in the center of the cage to avoid getting roasted alive. They probably won't be too keen on investigating the cage, either, since that would require getting close and poking at it.

Should arrows start flying through the walls at them (or an angry barbarian suddenly phases into the cage with them) then they'll probably start wondering if something is up. Of course, with an angry barbarian up in their face they now have better things to use their action for.

[SharkForce]

That's right, I completely forgot - you could just throat-slit a slept or held creature.

So what about this use of PF against a creature I can talk to that I want to control - it sees an imp materialize in front of it, and the imp says "My master's summoning a demon that will wipe out those guys (nods at party), but it will kill you too if it sees you. Quick, hide over there - keep your head totally down - and when my master shouts 'rhinoceros' it means it's safe for you to come out and help plunder their dead bodies. Hurry - hide!" A creature might not believe that a high level caster has happened upon the fight and is helping him out in this way - but - isn't that what the Int DC is for?

What about a PF of green slime falling on a creature? It "hurts" (psychic damage) and if he "scrapes it off" more falls on him. The limit - he'd have to know what green slime is. He could move from where it's "dripping" but the PF could have it reappear there - as if he didn't quite get it all and it is growing back. This would serve to tie up a creature and take it out of the fight a while.

I could try doing the PF of a burly fighter who grapples the creature continually - even if the creature breaks free the fighter re-grapples and bruises him so much he takes the 1 to 6 psychic damage.

A large constrictor snake - same effect.

I think trying to impose an actual condition on a target of PF is possibly going too far with most DMs, as they'll feel it's an abuse - even if it is very creative - except being grappled is an effect. Well its movement would not be zero if it tried to move, and it would rationalize breaking free enough of the burly fighter that it can move, dragging the fighter with it.

Stinging bugs, big snake, octopus, grappling thing - as long as you get the victim of the pf so concerned about the phantasm the spell could be worth it in that "dividing and conquering" is still a very valid and basic tactic for 5e (as it's always been for dnd). As long as one of the creatures you're fighting doesn't fight party members it's being "controlled" - even if a formal effect or condition is not on it.

Can you think of better ways?

the imp could be done with other illusion spells, which would work on multiple targets, and don't allow an initial save DC (they have the same investigation check and are frequently subject to failure if someone tries to touch them, but that can be worked around by simply making sure they can't touch the imp). the int DC is for the spell to work, not for the creature to do what you want them to do. if they pass, they don't see or hear the imp, if they fail, they see and hear the imp (and can even feel it, and will explain away the fact that their hand can pass right through it if they even get a chance to touch it), but are under no compulsion whatsoever to actually believe the things it says.

green slime falling from the sky, you can get one and only one. you have no real control over it beyond directing it to attack again. the spell doesn't really specify whether you can "tweak" the creature (for example, can you make a flying green slime? we don't know, ask your DM), but ultimately no matter how you slice it the illusion only does 1d6 damage, which most creatures will ignore in favour of dealing with the group of other creatures that are dealing 15+ damage per hit, and hitting multiple times per round. also, again... one creature. you might hit one creature, and if it's the biggest one, it is probably the least inclined to care about 1d6 damage per round for long.

grappled is a condition. you cannot inflict grappled, per the recent JC clarification. since the person is able to move, they will justify that the grapple failed, since that fits the facts while a successful grapple would not, and can just walk away.

a large constricter snake applies both the grappled and restrained conditions... neither of which phantasmal force can cause, per the recent JC clarification. again, the target can just walk away. and you don't even get an opportunity attack.

the illusion cannot cause any conditions, nor can it really do much of anything beyond obscuring sight (obscured is not a condition, and should therefore be possible, but blinding the target is a condition, so you can't make them unable to see. you could presumably make a cloud that hovers around one person, costing concentration, but granting that one person the benefits of heavily obscured against the subject of the cloud... but that's a lot to invest for not much benefit. note that heavily obscured does not conceal their location, they still need to hide for that, btw).

so yeah, that's about as good as it gets. quasi-invisibility for a very small area against a single target should be possible. frankly, i'll take my chances with web or suggestion.


(the reason to fight for pf is that it's an INT save (or DC - I'm still trying to get around why the DC part is worded so funny - I guess if a creature has an "investigation bonus" on top of it's int score it gets that bonus to its DC - but most creatures have low Int.) - it works on creatures you can't speak to (unlike suggestion, which otherwise is extremely powerful) - and it works on creatures that aren't humanoid (but not all creatures of course).)

if they make the initial int save, the spell just fails. no illusion, no nothing. after they have failed the int save, they can attempt to see through the illusion by spending an action and making an int (investigation) check against the spell's DC, which is fairly typical for illusions. though they really should have a reason before they even try that investigation check.

[strangebloke]

People comparing this to a regular illusion spell are missing the key point: illusions are easy to ignore.

If I create an illusory Chimera, an intelligent creature will ask 'where did that come from?'. If the thing attacks him, he can interact with it and then test investigation.

If I create a phantasmal Chimera, an intelligent creature will think, 'he summoned that.' if it attacks him and deals less damage than normal, he'll think 'phew, that guy only grazed me.'

With phantasmal force, the creature has to somehow decide to test investigation even though he is actively rationalizing everything the creature does... And taking real damage.

It's remarkably sticky.

[SharkForce]

People comparing this to a regular illusion spell are missing the key point: illusions are easy to ignore.

If I create an illusory Chimera, an intelligent creature will ask 'where did that come from?'. If the thing attacks him, he can interact with it and then test investigation.

If I create a phantasmal Chimera, an intelligent creature will think, 'he summoned that.' if it attacks him and deals less damage than normal, he'll think 'phew, that guy only grazed me.'

With phantasmal force, the creature has to somehow decide to test investigation even though he is actively rationalizing everything the creature does... And taking real damage.

It's remarkably sticky.

or, alternately, they say "hey, this thing does insignificant damage" and walk away. an illusion doesn't become hard to ignore just because it does damage that is barely competitive with a typical level 1 wizard armed with a dagger, and not quite competitive with a typical level 1 fighter punching things with their bare hand.

(incidentally, where did that monster come from? magic, duh. illusions are a thing, but so are legitimate summoning spells)

yes, they think it's really got a physical presence. no, they aren't compelled to treat your ultra-discount monster as if it was genuinely threatening, and they're particularly not compelled to ignore the several other significantly more dangerous threats around them, just because there's a toothless declawed athsmatic chimera in front of them.

also, you can do an investigation check against phantasmal force as well. it doesn't disappear when touched, but again, if you're relying on the illusion physically touching the target in combat, it's terrible.

also, given the chimera has large wings and a long tail, it probably exceeds the 10 foot cube allowed (unless it spends the entire time rolled up in a ball... which i rather suspect might cause people to become suspicious of its true nature).

the only decent use of an illusion of a monster is to scare something off by making it leave without interacting with the monster, and phantasmal force doesn't change that. well, except that phantasmal force is only able to make an illusion appear to one creature.

[Koren]

I think some of the naysayers here underestimate the power of something that is designed to be believable and rationalized.

But because of exactly that I would discuss with your DM before you pick up the spell (or at least before you use it in a direction situation). If the target failed the initial check I personally would not have it attempt the investigation check unless it had particular reason to. Even if the target is intelligent enough but alone, the spell causes it to rationalize anything that happens with what it sees and feels (even the usual tell of not being physical) so it may not actually think about checking. As mentioned, something like mist designed to obscure the area would almost force any slightly intelligent creature to investigate though. Perhaps try to avoid that.

[Quoxis]

also, you can do an investigation check against phantasmal force as well. it doesn't disappear when touched, but again, if you're relying on the illusion physically touching the target in combat, it's terrible.


Well no. The flavor text of pf states that the affected creature thinks the illusion is real and even subconciously explains such things to itself. In the example it's an illusionary bridge and the creature falling right through the illusion - and it doesn't think "huh, weird how i fell through this", it thinks "well bummer, i must've slipped".
We're talking about a 2nd (or 3rd?) level spell here, do you really think it was intended to be worse than a cantrip? Minor illusion affects multiple targets, firebolt (and about every other damage dealing cantrip) can do more damage.
This is a stronger illusion, and a creature of normal or lower intellect shouldn't be able to make out it's fake unless it does something really incredible (like walk through a wall). Hell, the damage the spell deals comes from the wrong perception that the illusion physically hurt the creature, if it can imagine damage it can imagine physical contact. If the illusion touched the creature, the creature would either wrongly percieve being touched or think it had pulled pulled its arm back etc. Of course that would get rather suspicious after the fifth time it happened.

[Koren]

if it can imagine damage it can imagine physical contact. If the illusion touched the creature, the creature would either wrongly percieve being touched or think it had pulled its arm back etc. Of course that would get rather suspicious after the fifth time it happened.


The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature.


While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real.

Could we lay to rest the discussion on this vs Minor Illusion? I'm much more interested in the possible uses for controlled hallucinations.

[Chugger]

All good stuff to think about. I never know who my DM will be - comes form a pool of them - and very good DMs really (except very hardcore against illusions so far - module gaming puts them on edge and who can blame them?).

Not all chars can get web, and high-str monsters often are not much affected by webs - but they can miss a save. But an arcane rogue has to take mostly illusion or ench spells. I'm trying to see if there is any reason to fight for a PF working or to preset some compelling illusions for it. I'm also trying to pre-set how to persuade the DM to let me have at least something for my effort, if he's going to be hardcore - like "I'm not imposing a condition - but it's not very smart and has just been warned by what might be a powerful wizard's imp to get out of the way or possibly die - wouldn't a lot of creatures go over into the rocks and keep their heads down a few rounds if told that? Especially kind of lame not-all-that-lawful or dedicated creatures like this (it's not like they're cultists - of course a cultist would rather die first)."

Monsters don't always pick the most rational target to attack. An ogre who is attacked by a somewhat weak-looking elf maid (he can hit her but for some reason can't quite drop her to the ground) decked in valuable jewels and with a fat coin purse on her belt - ogres have legendary greed iirc in the mm - and they aren't smart - an ogre might waste its turns trying to knock her down so he can grab her loot and hide it in his own pouch before his friends can see it.

That's the sort of clever but very workable thing I'm going for here. Also I'm able to say "hey Mr./Ms. DM, I'm not going into abuse here - this PF is not trying to impose a condition it can't - it's just trying to fool an ogre into attacking an illusion for a few rounds - if I could cast Hold Person on the ogre we'd all land crits on it and kill it in half a round. HP doesn't work on an ogre iirc and that's not the point - the point is that PF is a lvl 2 spell and it's doing something not even close to as-powerful-as another lvl 2 spell. Come on. Where's the abuse? Where's the harm? You don't have to be mega-hardcore here, really?"

I think it's all about finding the buttons that make the DM relax on illusions a bit, if the DM is mega hardcore against illusions (and so far many are). Thoughts please?

[Chugger]

Could we lay to rest the discussion on this vs Minor Illusion? I'm much more interested in the possible uses for controlled hallucinations.

Good point. Me too. I might be able to take PF soon. I need "ammo" to make it work and lots of possible good uses lined up. And a really solid sense of the rules and balance to make my case to the DM, so his sense of "I can't let things go out of whack here or be too easy here" is properly handled. And DMs are right to worry about this. A good illusion can be very powerful. There's a reason that illusions keep DMs up at night. So I think we can't ask for too much here - just can we expect to get enough value from the spell to justify taking and using it? Especially (for me) in a module situation. Home games can be much more flexible.

[strangebloke]

The text reads 'other stimuli' which is pretty all-inclusive.

I'd argue that includes pain. It certainly includes the sense of touch. Now, you can't make it include pain to the point that the creature becomes paralyzed, or something, but enough that they can perceive something as more hurtful than it actually is. I would argue that this is supported by the text:

'An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm’s reality that it can even take damage from the illusion.'

IE: the target is so convinced that it is taking massive damage, that it actually does take some damage. Obviously, some DMs will disagree, but I fail to see what the point of this spell if you can't convince a creature that its taking damage.

Regardless.

It's fully possible to create a spell effect like a globe of invulnerability or a globe of annihilation. A creature that sees a globe of annihilation, if it recognizes it for what its supposed to be, probably will run for the hills. A wizard that seems to be invulnerable to everything thrown at him will likely be left alone.

[SharkForce]

Well no. The flavor text of pf states that the affected creature thinks the illusion is real and even subconciously explains such things to itself. In the example it's an illusionary bridge and the creature falling right through the illusion - and it doesn't think "huh, weird how i fell through this", it thinks "well bummer, i must've slipped".
We're talking about a 2nd (or 3rd?) level spell here, do you really think it was intended to be worse than a cantrip? Minor illusion affects multiple targets, firebolt (and about every other damage dealing cantrip) can do more damage.
This is a stronger illusion, and a creature of normal or lower intellect shouldn't be able to make out it's fake unless it does something really incredible (like walk through a wall). Hell, the damage the spell deals comes from the wrong perception that the illusion physically hurt the creature, if it can imagine damage it can imagine physical contact. If the illusion touched the creature, the creature would either wrongly percieve being touched or think it had pulled pulled its arm back etc. Of course that would get rather suspicious after the fifth time it happened.

yes, they perceive it as real. but it isn't like silent image says "also, the illusion looks completely unrealistic and anyone looking at it automatically gets to make an investigation check" either. all illusions appear realistic. an illusion of a table doesn't look like a cartoon table, it looks like a real table, and there's no reason for anyone to make an investigation check unless they notice something weird (like, say, after watching for several minutes, noticing that nobody is using the table).

which is the problem; if a creature has evidence enough to investigate a regular illusion, they have evidence enough to investigate a phantasmal force illusion, and while it will *feel* real, it won't actually push back with any pressure, which means as soon as you're relying on that false sense of touch the illusion generates you're getting problems; the chains feel real, but the target can walk right out of them ("the chains must have been very weak"). the cage feels real, but the target can pass through them ("the bars must have been wide enough for me to squeeze through all along"). and so forth.

meanwhile, the 1d6 damage (which is not described as in any way being hidden how much damage is dealt) is not enough of a threat to cause any truly threatening creature to be particularly threatening. yes, it believes it is taking damage. no, it doesn't believe it just took 40 damage when it actually took 3. you might get a round or two of distraction before a very dumb creature realizes how non-threatening the illusion is, but exploiting extremely dumb creatures should be easy anyways; you don't need a single-target highly-specialized illusion that can only possibly even have a chance of working on one creature to pull that off.

thanks to JC clarifying that the potentially powerful interpretation (limited by single target, concentration, size, and the fact that it's an illusion, plus requiring some creativity to get it to work at all, and you having no real control beyond the moment of creation) is not an option, phantasmal force is a pretty lousy spell. don't like that? well, ignore JC's ruling and make your own ruling to make it not a piece of junk. i'm certainly not going to stop you. but if you're a player wanting to take the spell into AL games, i can only say that this spell has the majority of the problems of every other illusion, plus some extra limitations, and i *really* can't recommend it as a result.

about the only thing that might be interesting is if you're facing a single target, in which case you can create heavily obscured conditions on and around yourself or one other creature (that is, you create an illusion of, say, a cloud of fog or just darkness on your own location that follows you around, which is probably allowed). heavily obscured is not a condition you apply on the target, so you can give yourself the equivalent of the warlock darkness + devil's sight combination, except single target and it allows a save. it's still pretty lousy compared to the actual combo, but that's just about the only DM-proof useful illusion i can think of that couldn't be done better with other spells.

@ chugger: if ogres are that greedy and dumb, just create an illusion of a treasure chest with any other illusion-creating spell. the ogre will still be distracted for a round or two, but you didn't have to blow a spell slot or spell known on phantasmal force. it won't get an initial save, and yeah, it won't last once the ogre touches the chest.... but you would be lucky to get more than a round or two out of phantasmal force anyways. you can get a short duration distraction for an extremely stupid target without phantasmal force.

blur, invisibility, mirror image, suggestion, and hold person provide plenty of interesting options for illusion and enchantment level 2 spells. i would skip on phantasmal force.

[RickAsWritten]

Would this work?

Use Phantasmal Force to cause said ogre/enemy to think a pit opened up in the ground, and that it now falling down a pitch black tunnel with no end.

[Koren]

yes, they perceive it as real. but it isn't like silent image says "also, the illusion looks completely unrealistic and anyone looking at it automatically gets to make an investigation check" either. all illusions appear realistic. an illusion of a table doesn't look like a cartoon table, it looks like a real table, and there's no reason for anyone to make an investigation check unless they notice something weird (like, say, after watching for several minutes, noticing that nobody is using the table)

First I am not sure which JC ruling you are talking about.

Second, concerning the quote, going by how you translate the effect makes that clause completely superfluous. With Silent Image and other broad illusions, there's nothing any particular way pushing a viewer towards believing it or not (shy of being intangible). The spell Phantasmal Force itself is inclining the victim to believe, they would need some external factor nudging them to investigate.

I think of it like a hallucinogenic drug: yeah the person may not actually believe in dragons but when they see a dragon blocking the fridge no way in hell are they getting that pizza.

[SharkForce]

First I am not sure which JC ruling you are talking about.

Second, concerning the quote, going by how you translate the effect makes that clause completely superfluous. With Silent Image and other broad illusions, there's nothing any particular way pushing a viewer towards believing it or not (shy of being intangible). The spell Phantasmal Force itself is inclining the victim to believe, they would need some external factor nudging them to investigate.

I think of it like a hallucinogenic drug: yeah the person may not actually believe in dragons but when they see a dragon blocking the fridge no way in hell are they getting that pizza.

there is a recent tweet that basically eliminates the possibility of the enemy treating the effect as real to the point where their mind will attempt to stop their body from passing through, if possible (in earlier editions, you would fall through an illusionary floor if you tried to stand on it, but if you leaned against an illusionary wall you and everyone else would think you were leaning on the wall but you would actually be holding yourself in that position until you attempted to disbelieve... so if that rule worked, you could for example use phantasmal force to make chains that restrain someone, or a light that blinds them, etc). it goes so far as to specifically state you cannot impose conditions that are not listed in the spell description (note: no conditions are listed in the spell description, which means it can't impose any conditions, including blind, prone, restrained, grappled, etc).

might take a bit of time to track it down, it's been mentioned recently on these forums though.

in any event, phantasmal force doesn't force you to think it's real in any way that a normal illusion wouldn't do. it just covers up for when you do something that would disrupt other illusions. but it doesn't cover it up in a useful way, it just makes you come up with a reason why you just passed through what appeared to be a 5 foot thick stone wall instead of the illusion fading to a faintly translucent overlay. that is slightly better i suppose, but not so much better that it justifies being a single target spell with a built-in save instead of a spell that works on an unlimited number of creatures (until it is somehow disrupted or recognized as an illusion by people who see it) that just works in the first place without allowing a save to ignore the spell entirely.

@ rawhite: a bottomless pit exceeds the 10 foot cube limitation. they also would not fall when stepping on the pit (and would come up with some justification for that fact). it would not make them fall to the ground (prone is a condition, and phantasmal force cannot cause conditions), nor would it prevent them from just walking out of the pit.

[RickAsWritten]

@ rawhite: a bottomless pit exceeds the 10 foot cube limitation. they also would not fall when stepping on the pit (and would come up with some justification for that fact). it would not make them fall to the ground (prone is a condition, and phantasmal force cannot cause conditions), nor would it prevent them from just walking out of the pit.

The actual depth of the pit wouldn't really matter. I may have described what I'm thinking of poorly. The illusion would be that of being in free fall in a dark space. The creature would fully believe that it is in free fall, so it would just kinda stand there (possibly)screaming, waving it's arms in the air and shuffling it's feet.

[Koren]

A regular illusion doesn't actively rationalize itself to you. You see something wrong with a regular illusion and there is nothing to stop you realizing what it is. If someone creates the illusion of a kobold and then shoots it in the head with an arrow, the arrow will go clean through without any change in the kobold. The way PF reads, a PF hallucinated Kobold would probably move to avoid the arrow or the target would believe they saw it go behind the kobold.

But we are going off topic with this tired discussion. The question was about possible ways to use it, not the logistics of a single clause in the spell.

[Kane0]

My favourite is a localised cloud of acid/poison/choking smoke on the target.
Another player in my group favors the 'classic' grasping spiky chains approach.
The DM loves the gremlin swarm.
The goofy player often uses a gigantic pile of muffins that 'crushes' his chosen victim. He calls the spell 'Muffin Button'. When that doesnt work he likes to have the target's weapon attack him. He calls that one 'stop hitting yourself'.

We have all at some point or other made an illusory bridge or rope or flooring over a pit or something to trick a creature into falling somewhere, but not using PF.

[Zorku]

Yeah, current game I'm a player in the DM was just giving the target an investigation check every round on top of whatever action they wanted to take. I felt cheated, but I'm trying not to take my forum style rules lawyering into actual games.

FWIW, when I DM and a player uses this spell at my table, I'm going to say that "the ____ attacks the phantasm" and count that as an investigation check that consumes their action. If they can come up with something that limits the ____ in some way but that they won't dare to touch or interact with then there won't be investigation checks and I'll consider that creature crowd controlled. I see no reason for creatures to declare that they will investigate something that they already rationalize, and that is just too blatantly inescapable for spells in this edition.



My gosh with OA rules Dissonant Whispers can be a "death spell." Last week had a character zap a Giant w/ dis whisp - it failed and ran. Two or three meleers were on the giant and landed some wicked OA's on it (one did 24, which for the level was quite good).I hope that was a sneak attack, because OAs aren't supposed to be your entire extra attack feature.


yes, of course, it covers all sorts of things, except that you can just move right through everything it creates. sure, you'll come up with a reason why it should have happened. you still just went right through it. Then put them in a hamster ball and say that you want them confused about how to get out of this thing as it rolls around. If they don't rationalize that that thing moves with them then just give up on using illusions with that dm. If they trying to scamper around inside of the ball to run into people then there's no ball there and you just have to deal with somebody running into you without aiming correctly (so, a tackle w/ disadvantage?)

This should pretty much tell you what you need to know about how useful an illusion can be at that table.


I never know who my DM will be - comes form a pool of them
Yeesh.


The actual depth of the pit wouldn't really matter. I may have described what I'm thinking of poorly. The illusion would be that of being in free fall in a dark space. The creature would fully believe that it is in free fall, so it would just kinda stand there (possibly)screaming, waving it's arms in the air and shuffling it's feet.
"I want them to be in an endless pit, like a little black dot opens up under their feet and then they see rock walls rush up on all sides as the point of light above them gradually grows fainter and fainter. This says it includes all senses so I want their inner ear to feel like they're tumbling in a free fall way, and uh, I guess the 1d6 psychic damage can be from when they think they smack into the side walls, and the whole area gets real dark after the first couple of seconds. I presume they will just flop around on the ground from everyone else's perspectives."

[Kane0]

"A band of bright purple light circles their head and obscures their vision. The light pulses each turn causing psychic damage until they figure out what's going on."

Has worked pretty well for me in the past, plus you can use variations that wrap around their limbs or slap them around or whatever. A cooperative DM might try an Int (Arcana) check before an Int (investigation), giving you an extra turn of use out of it. However they might also say that its the same in check either way (or for both), especially if the creature happens to be proficient in both (or neither).

[Chugger]

Thanks much for all this input and effort! Lots of good stuff here. And I need help!

Okay, the illusion of a pit opening under the ogre probably won't work with even a lenient DM. That's just too powerful and seems not to fit the dimension or parameters (limits) of the PF spell.

I'm thinking that I must limit what I expect to happen from the PF to be in line with what other lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells do (Dissonant Whispers is a death spell to a hurt monster next to 2 or 3 meleers, often - Hold Person is a death spell if people can avoid or just eat some AoO and go crit the held creature - Sleep has always been a "death spell with no save" going back to when the game was in those pamphlets, long ago - PF will never be allowed to be that powerful - but if it takes one of 3 ogres out of combat a few rounds it's acting as a "control" spell and is helping to "divide and conquer" - it's a worthy use of the slot.

Casting the net wide, really wide, a Half-Ogre Life Insurance Salesman tapping one of the Ogres on the shoulder and saying, "I've been trying to track you down for some time. Oh, don't worry about them - I'll help you take them out in a moment. But what I have for you is a limited, once-in-a-lifetime offer...." And I'm being facetious, but with the right DM. I'm guessing playing the DM - being cognizant of what you expect the PF to accomplish - and preempting DM-fear by pointing out what the spell's trying to do is actually _weaker_ than hold person or suggestion ... yeah, some DMs will still crap all over the effort. Sigh.

An illusion of a "party druid" - or someone who looks like a party druid - stepping out from behind a tree and doing wild shape into a tiger or bear and moving into position - or if the DM has had a monster charge and get in the face of the party archer every fight - do the PF of another archer - you can possibly "shame" the DM by pointing out his inconsistency and meta-gaming (if you do it diplomatically and allowing face-save - "you got a ton on your mind, I know - so I'm guessing you're not even aware - not dumping on you man - just trying to help..." some such approach.

Or give up?

[JackPhoenix]

meanwhile, the 1d6 damage (which is not described as in any way being hidden how much damage is dealt) is not enough of a threat to cause any truly threatening creature to be particularly threatening. yes, it believes it is taking damage. no, it doesn't believe it just took 40 damage when it actually took 3. you might get a round or two of distraction before a very dumb creature realizes how non-threatening the illusion is, but exploiting extremely dumb creatures should be easy anyways; you don't need a single-target highly-specialized illusion that can only possibly even have a chance of working on one creature to pull that off.

You're metagaming and assuming creatures know what damage values and hit points are. Sorry, that's not how it works. Any source of damage can kill you, doesn't matter if it's a kobold with 1d4-1 club or an ubersmiter paladin/assassin/whatever combo with 150 hp average hit. The only hit that really matters is the one that takes you to 0, until then, HP are the ability to avoid that solid, fatal blow. A guy with a sword looks just as threatening whether he's normal commoner, paladin with Divine Smite and whatever damage buffs he can get or an illusion.

[RSP]

2) The phantasm can not be controlled by you. You essentially program the sort of creature or object you want while describing the phantasm and then it acts on its own...

...But they just wasted their Action. And on your turn you can have the phantasmal chain 'restrain' them again.


Wanted to reiterate this point: you don't control the illusion. You create something, and you maintain concentration on it, but you can't see it, and can't control it.

You can't have a phantasmal chain restrain them again, though you could make an illusion of a living chain that likes to continually wrap itself around the creature; but it would probably take effect on the creature's turn and you, the caster, wouldn't be directing it.

[jas61292]

You're metagaming and assuming creatures know what damage values and hit points are. Sorry, that's not how it works. Any source of damage can kill you, doesn't matter if it's a kobold with 1d4-1 club or an ubersmiter paladin/assassin/whatever combo with 150 hp average hit. The only hit that really matters is the one that takes you to 0, until then, HP are the ability to avoid that solid, fatal blow. A guy with a sword looks just as threatening whether he's normal commoner, paladin with Divine Smite and whatever damage buffs he can get or an illusion.

I agree with this.

Furthermore, even if you do know how much damage it is doing, I'm a firm believer that when it comes to rationalization, you should try and apply Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation (rationalization) is the best, and what the target of phantasmal force will think. Because of the way this spell makes a creature accept it, any explanation that forces you to question an assumption about the illusion would be less simple than one that fits in with those assumptions, as the former would require you to believe things are not what your senses are telling you.

In the case of a very scary creature that the character expects strength from, the simplest rationalization is usually not "it's weak," because that would run counter to their assumptions around which they are rationalizing. Rather something like "it has yet to land a solid blow" or "it's playing with me" would fit better, because it is simple, yet does not run counter to any assumptions about the phantasm.

[Rebonack]

Wanted to reiterate this point: you don't control the illusion. You create something, and you maintain concentration on it, but you can't see it, and can't control it.

You can't have a phantasmal chain restrain them again, though you could make an illusion of a living chain that likes to continually wrap itself around the creature; but it would probably take effect on the creature's turn and you, the caster, wouldn't be directing it.

My wording could have been better.

According to the text of PF, it deals damage on your turn. So the set illusion would be 'red hot chain that constantly restrains the target again'. Since it deals damage on your turn, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that's when it leaps at the poor guy and wraps around him again. From how the spell is worded, the phantasm appears to 'act' on your initiative count.

[SharkForce]

You're metagaming and assuming creatures know what damage values and hit points are. Sorry, that's not how it works. Any source of damage can kill you, doesn't matter if it's a kobold with 1d4-1 club or an ubersmiter paladin/assassin/whatever combo with 150 hp average hit. The only hit that really matters is the one that takes you to 0, until then, HP are the ability to avoid that solid, fatal blow. A guy with a sword looks just as threatening whether he's normal commoner, paladin with Divine Smite and whatever damage buffs he can get or an illusion.


I agree with this.

Furthermore, even if you do know how much damage it is doing, I'm a firm believer that when it comes to rationalization, you should try and apply Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation (rationalization) is the best, and what the target of phantasmal force will think. Because of the way this spell makes a creature accept it, any explanation that forces you to question an assumption about the illusion would be less simple than one that fits in with those assumptions, as the former would require you to believe things are not what your senses are telling you.

In the case of a very scary creature that the character expects strength from, the simplest rationalization is usually not "it's weak," because that would run counter to their assumptions around which they are rationalizing. Rather something like "it has yet to land a solid blow" or "it's playing with me" would fit better, because it is simple, yet does not run counter to any assumptions about the phantasm.

the players know how much damage they're taking. i'm going to give monsters the exact same treatment unless there's a compelling reason not to. it is metagaming to assume that only the PCs know how close they are to death and how threatening each attack is while everyone else is completely ignorant.

and no "oh, it's probably just not even trying" is not a plausible explanation. this is D&D, not DBZ, monsters that are trying to kill you are going to be trying to kill you (but even if it was... how is that any less reason to treat it like a threat? if it isn't really trying, why not go after the other creatures that *are* trying first). likewise, if a monster is making several attacks and not even one of them landed solidly, that still isn't a reason to treat the monster like a major threat.

and we know that it is possible for things to not fit with the targets expectations, otherwise they would not be allowed to make an investigation check under any circumstances. since it is allowed, it must therefore be possible for them to feel like something isn't fitting what they expect. they aren't forced to believe it is real, or that it is a threat, they are simply unable to dispel it by touch like several other illusions. that's not useless or anything, but it isn't worth the other limitations either, particularly since that feeling of touching the whatever-it-is doesn't include any of the actual restrictions implied by touching that thing; an apparently burning hot sword doesn't give disadvantage to use it, an apparently tightly-wrapped chain will not restrain you, a giant snake that feels like it is constricting you will not prevent you from moving around and attacking as normal, a 10 foot deep pit will not cause you to fall prone, and so forth.

[Koren]

An apparently burning hot sword doesn't give disadvantage to use it, an apparently tightly-wrapped chain will not restrain you, a giant snake that feels like it is constricting you will not prevent you from moving around and attacking as normal, a 10 foot deep pit will not cause you to fall prone, and so forth.

Personally I never liked these suggestions in the first place, trying to impose a condition the spell doesn't naturally do is small thinking for such an open-ended spell. And forcing psuedo blindness to me is especially problematic because it then gives them no options other than to investigate what they are seeing, thus making the one out to this spell obvious.

As with all illusions one should be creative and have the blessing of their DM. (I wouldn't use any Illusion if the DM is vehemently against them as I am seeing frequently). We don't want to give the foe disadvantage through a hot sword because the spell wouldn't force disadvantage, we do want to put a snake on the sword of a foe to make him drop his sword.

We don't want to mimic something that would give an effect if it were real, we want to give the target a reason to cause problems for himself.

[Xetheral]

I've used Phantasmal Force mostly out of combat--it's far more distracting when their aren't *other* threats competing for the target's attention. It's amazing with Subtle Spell. Here are some good uses:

Invisible band of force slowly choking the target. (That their fingers go right through it makes the experience even more terrifying.) A dangerous scorpion or spider climbing up under the target's (or target's ally's) clothes. A scarab burrowing into the target's (or target's ally's) skin and heading for their heart. A call for help sounding as if it's coming from outside/around the corner. (Useful in place of other illusions if the target is in range but the apparent "source" is not.) The sound of the target's ally saying something it didn't actually say. The appearance of combat starting. (Great for provoking someone into striking first in front of witnesses.) The feeling that the target's blood is heating up. Tickles. All the tickles. Make the target feel like someone is picking their pocket. The sensation of vertigo. Delivering full-sensory secret messages only the target can percieve. Make the target think they were groped. Make the king (and only the king) hear a courtier being traitorous or insolent. Make the target (and only the target) hear the Banjo theme from Deliverance. Make the target (and only the target) hear bagpipes being played... badly. Make the target's food taste foul, rotten, or poisoned. Make the Doctor perceive his Companion as having a second shadow. The feeling that a chestbuster is trying to exit.

TLDR: Turn allies against each other, ruin people politically, distract people, provoke combat, frame people for crimes, terrify anyone....

[JackPhoenix]

the players know how much damage they're taking. i'm going to give monsters the exact same treatment unless there's a compelling reason not to. it is metagaming to assume that only the PCs know how close they are to death and how threatening each attack is while everyone else is completely ignorant.

Players know that, and they are metagaming... it's a game, after all, some metagaming is to be expected. The characters, however, don't. Doesn't matter if the character in question is PC or NPC. Yes, they know when they are under half HP (when the first real hits are scored), they know they are getting tired, slowly beaten up and they won't be able to defend themselves forever, but they do not know how many HP they have, or that the HP even exist in the first place. But they wouldn't ignore an enemy "because he does low damage", if they see regular combat, they've propably seen some of their friends facing sword-wielding foe go from "I'm fresh and rested, I think I can hold my own against this guy for a while" to "Urk, I'm dead" in under six seconds when the swordsman is revealed to be a high-level paladin who rolled a crit.

Generally, intelligent opponents in my game consider retreating when they get to half HP, doesn't matter if they are random mook #235 who was lucky to survive the min-dmg hit with 1 HP left, or BBEG's badass second-in-command who could propably last for 5 more rounds. Smart PC's usualy do the same, even if they are faced with just a bunch of kobolds (not that all PC's are smart, but hey, I had to get that killer-GM reputation from somewhere (although, I'm honestly not sure from where, there was no PC death in my current group yet, even if someone was beaten unconscious in about every third fight, nobody actually died).

[SharkForce]

I've used Phantasmal Force mostly out of combat--it's far more distracting when their aren't *other* threats competing for the target's attention. It's amazing with Subtle Spell. Here are some good uses:

Invisible band of force slowly choking the target. (That their fingers go right through it makes the experience even more terrifying.) A dangerous scorpion or spider climbing up under the target's (or target's ally's) clothes. A scarab burrowing into the target's (or target's ally's) skin and heading for their heart. A call for help sounding as if it's coming from outside/around the corner. (Useful in place of other illusions if the target is in range but the apparent "source" is not.) The sound of the target's ally saying something it didn't actually say. The appearance of combat starting. (Great for provoking someone into striking first in front of witnesses.) The feeling that the target's blood is heating up. Tickles. All the tickles. Make the target feel like someone is picking their pocket. The sensation of vertigo. Delivering full-sensory secret messages only the target can percieve. Make the target think they were groped. Make the king (and only the king) hear a courtier being traitorous or insolent. Make the target (and only the target) hear the Banjo theme from Deliverance. Make the target (and only the target) hear bagpipes being played... badly. Make the target's food taste foul, rotten, or poisoned. Make the Doctor perceive his Companion as having a second shadow. The feeling that a chestbuster is trying to exit.

TLDR: Turn allies against each other, ruin people politically, distract people, provoke combat, frame people for crimes, terrify anyone....

depressingly, a large number of these run into a simple problem: phantasmal force creates "...a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon..."

as such, you cannot create sounds or feelings that aren't attached to something visible. also, you can't make people disappear, so while you can make an image of a person drawing a sword... the actual person not drawing a sword can also be seen.

still, it is better for trolling people than it is for combat, that much is true.


Players know that, and they are metagaming... it's a game, after all, some metagaming is to be expected. The characters, however, don't. Doesn't matter if the character in question is PC or NPC. Yes, they know when they are under half HP (when the first real hits are scored), they know they are getting tired, slowly beaten up and they won't be able to defend themselves forever, but they do not know how many HP they have, or that the HP even exist in the first place. But they wouldn't ignore an enemy "because he does low damage", if they see regular combat, they've propably seen some of their friends facing sword-wielding foe go from "I'm fresh and rested, I think I can hold my own against this guy for a while" to "Urk, I'm dead" in under six seconds when the swordsman is revealed to be a high-level paladin who rolled a crit.

Generally, intelligent opponents in my game consider retreating when they get to half HP, doesn't matter if they are random mook #235 who was lucky to survive the min-dmg hit with 1 HP left, or BBEG's badass second-in-command who could propably last for 5 more rounds. Smart PC's usualy do the same, even if they are faced with just a bunch of kobolds (not that all PC's are smart, but hey, I had to get that killer-GM reputation from somewhere (although, I'm honestly not sure from where, there was no PC death in my current group yet, even if someone was beaten unconscious in about every third fight, nobody actually died).

those are some very nice houserules, but they aren't actual rules. there are precisely zero statements that you haven't started taking actual injuries until half hp, and plenty of evidence that all HP loss represents injury (for example, cure wounds is cure wounds, not... i dunno... replenish luck, or whatever it is you think is being lost). there is no rule that NPCs and monsters (and the DM that controls them) shouldn't know how badly injured they are the same way that PCs (and the players that control them) do. there is very much no reason to presume they can't tell the difference between losing 3 HP and 23 HP.

[Koren]

those are some very nice houserules, but they aren't actual rules. there are precisely zero statements that you haven't started taking actual injuries until half hp, and plenty of evidence that all HP loss represents injury (for example, cure wounds is cure wounds, not... i dunno... replenish luck, or whatever it is you think is being lost). there is no rule that NPCs and monsters (and the DM that controls them) shouldn't know how badly injured they are the same way that PCs (and the players that control them) do. there is very much no reason to presume they can't tell the difference between losing 3 HP and 23 HP.

I recall the PHB defining hit points as something like "an accumulation of your characters physical and mental health" or something like that. If it were physical damage only then psychic damage wouldn't affect hp.

Suffice to say I agree that individuals would be able to tell the difference between Minor and major damage dealt, if only by the strength of the blow. Regardless, I also agree that it sounds like you are meta gaming a bit. Every additional bit PF has over other Illusion spells exists to say "this is an incredibly believable hallucination" but you are talking as if the victim is wary of it right from the beginning, even though by that point they failed the initial save. It's the equivalent of the player rolling a 5 for a perception check, seeing nothing, and then asking to look closer and roll again because you the player know you failed.

Now to avoid being off topic; I can't think of too many things that could be used to separate foes without risking being able to push or otherwise physically fence the target off but the idea of a hawk swooping down at the targets face for the purpose of trying to make it duck or drop prone mid Battle is growing on me.

[Xetheral]

depressingly, a large number of these run into a simple problem: phantasmal force creates "...a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon..."

as such, you cannot create sounds or feelings that aren't attached to something visible. also, you can't make people disappear, so while you can make an image of a person drawing a sword... the actual person not drawing a sword can also be seen.

still, it is better for trolling people than it is for combat, that much is true.

The requirement that there be a visible phenomenon isn't much of a restriction, considering that the "sound, temperature, and other stimuli" aren't required to be related. A tiny grey box that sounds like bagpipes qualifies as a visible phenomenon and thus is eligible. As would a dust that (apparently) dissolves in blood and rapidly heats up. Granted, there are some mistakes on the list: the choking band of force has to be visible, and vertigo might be more of an experience than a stimuli.

Even if you want to use a narrow interpretation and only permit "other stimuli" that are a logical consequence of the phenomenon created, most of the ones on the list work with creatures or objects as long as you place them out of line-of-sight (i.e., visible, just not currently seen).

[Chugger]

Right, imposing a condition in fact will freak out a typical DM. I mean if the PF causes a creature to lie down it is necessarily prone and the DM will just have to deal with it, but "paralyzed" is probably going too far for a condition, ever, w/ pf because even if the creature is tricked into thinking it's paralyzed it will still be able to flinch or move by instinct if something is coming at it - and that should mess up the critical bonus of that condition. But prone - if something goes prone, it's prone (prone is not a big-deal condition).

PF has many possible angles of attack. Why don't we see if we can organize them or at least start laying them out so we can discuss which ones work better (or better for which DM "type").

1. Tell victim an amazing story. An imp materializes in front of the victim and says, "I know this is a bad time, but my master says if you come meet him right this moment - over at that tree - he'll pay you 200 gold to be his bodyguard for the day." The tree is what, 1-3 round's movement away. The "imp" "goes invis" after giving the message. If the creature is a corrupt guard, an ogre, a chaotic alignment thing, that sort of thing, there's a good chance it is out of the fight for several rounds. But I can see that failing, too. There's got to be a better version of this.

Another I tried is an imp telling one of the creatures "my master's about to nuke those stupid adventurers, but he doesn't want to hurt you. Go over there and hide in those rocks a few rounds and don't look."

For this to work you have to be able to talk to the creature and you have to know something about it I guess to have a chance of your gamble working.

The story gambit can be used out of combat, when you really need to sell a con to a low int creature. Regular illusion and disguise self plus persuasion/performance can get this done, too - not sure if PF is "better" and may not be (when it wears off, there will be probs maybe).

2. A _____ comes out of hiding and attacks the creature, doing 1-6 and taunting it so much that it wastes several turns fighting a non-existent phantasm. Of course a creature could ignore the ______, instead, and focus on party members. So the ______ has to be a thing that the victim creature hates (that would sure help). There are lots of clues as to this in the MM. Or the ____ attacks in such a threatening way that the victim feels compelled to try to kill it. What would work? It's on the victim's arm sucking its blood? Like a stirge - and it can knock the "stirge" off but it comes right back on? What would be better?

3. You make an object with the PF or a pool of lava or iron bars or a box. But this has inherent problems as the victim will be able to physically push past such things (rationalizing why it had success but nevertheless weakening the PF in most cases). The bridge example in the phb is a good function of this. Why you'd risk losing a ST putting a bridge over a chasm when Silent Image creates a false bridge all pursuers will see and for which there might not even be a roll, I dunno.

4. Really out-there gambits, like a creature's sword suddenly comes to life, claiming to be magic, and trying to get the creature to do something wild - but this is kind of #1.

5. If the victim is greedy, have a possibly attractive "party member" (roguish) say "help me carry this, and we'll have it all for ourselves - hurry - now is the time to leave!" And she's got a nice big box of loot.

6. .... what can you all think of?

[Koren]

I recognize immediately this is a stretch and, even if allowed per RAW would be DM dependant...
But could one take advantage of the Rationalize clause to make the target argue with the illusion?

Example, charisma-lacking party wants to enter a building, guarded by a single guard. Party uses PF, programming it to appear and act like someone of nobility or the guards boss (bonus if you have seen the inspiration of the hallucination so you can get an accurate recreation). Have the hallucination command the guard to step aside and program it to convince the guard if he tries to argue.

Would that work? Would the Rationalize clause mean that the hallucination could reasonably convince the guard when questioned?

[JackPhoenix]

those are some very nice houserules, but they aren't actual rules. there are precisely zero statements that you haven't started taking actual injuries until half hp, and plenty of evidence that all HP loss represents injury (for example, cure wounds is cure wounds, not... i dunno... replenish luck, or whatever it is you think is being lost). there is no rule that NPCs and monsters (and the DM that controls them) shouldn't know how badly injured they are the same way that PCs (and the players that control them) do. there is very much no reason to presume they can't tell the difference between losing 3 HP and 23 HP.

Except they are not houserules:


Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile.

Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.

[Chugger]

I recognize immediately this is a stretch and, even if allowed per RAW would be DM dependant...
But could one take advantage of the Rationalize clause to make the target argue with the illusion?

Example, charisma-lacking party wants to enter a building, guarded by a single guard. Party uses PF, programming it to appear and act like someone of nobility or the guards boss (bonus if you have seen the inspiration of the hallucination so you can get an accurate recreation). Have the hallucination command the guard to step aside and program it to convince the guard if he tries to argue.

Would that work? Would the Rationalize clause mean that the hallucination could reasonably convince the guard when questioned?

That's a great thought! Um, caster would be using "concentration" factor to have the illusion argue back while doing non-conc things with his/her action, right? DM might rule making the PF argue well would eat an action, which would be nasty of the DM - it's not part of the RAW as I see it. But that would take a creature out of a fight for a while - would be worthwhile - would be divide and conquer.

*edit, if the guard fails his int dc vs that pf, and if the caster has seen the noble or captain ordering the guard to do __, I'm not sure an argument would be needed, at least not in many cases.

[Chugger]

Someone said something earlier in this thread ... and we've been kind of lame ignoring it - it was something about a PF going after a victim's um - "vulnerable" area. A PF of some sort of creature scurrying around inside a victim's pants or armor - and occasionally biting them hard in that "vulnerable" area, or near it - and then closer - and then closer - would certainly get most creatures' attention! I would think a creature - if it failed its dc and was feeling this - would have to take some time out of the fight "right now" to deal with this. And it could be funny.

[Koren]

That's a great thought! Um, caster would be using "concentration" factor to have the illusion argue back while doing non-conc things with his/her action, right? DM might rule making the PF argue well would eat an action, which would be nasty of the DM - it's not part of the RAW as I see it. But that would take a creature out of a fight for a while - would be worthwhile - would be divide and conquer.

*edit, if the guard fails his int dc vs that pf, and if the caster has seen the noble or captain ordering the guard to do __, I'm not sure an argument would be needed, at least not in many cases.

I question that though because the spell doesn't have anything about changing the illusion AFTER casting it, just that you decide what appears and how it acts, and then let it go. As for argument I was thinking like "open the gate" "but sir you said it must remain closed until sundown no matter what anybody says!" *Spell taps into what the guard would see as the most rational reason and replies appropriately*


Someone said something earlier in this thread ... and we've been kind of lame ignoring it - it was something about a PF going after a victim's um - "vulnerable" area. A PF of some sort of creature scurrying around inside a victim's pants or armor - and occasionally biting them hard in that "vulnerable" area, or near it - and then closer - and then closer - would certainly get most creatures' attention! I would think a creature - if it failed its dc and was feeling this - would have to take some time out of the fight "right now" to deal with this. And it could be funny.

... Holy crap that's brilliant. How did I miss that. If nothing else, they are not going to be able to fight well. Even the smartest and most skilled fighters would have to address it.

[SharkForce]

Except they are not houserules:

those aren't rules, they're vague descriptions with absolutely nothing supporting them. you know what happens when you restore someone's confidence? temporary hit points in danged near every case (as in, not real hit points, and not actual healing). in that sense, hit points represent those things, but only if we include temporary hit points. but they don't reflect your actual health; you can't use your increased confidence to withstand a sleep spell or a power word kill. cure wounds, in contrast, can restore you from 0 HP to max HP. and it says absolutely nothing about your mental durability. mindless creatures don't get less benefit from healing effects in any way because of their lack of a mind. heck, you can even give them THP from increased confidence the same sources you'd give them to creatures with a mind.

some vaguely-stated insistence that it kinda sorta doesn't entirely represent only physical health is not particularly compelling to the contrary. heck, even phantasmal force goes out of its way to explicitly state that the damage represents the victim's brain hurting themselves... physically.

and no, i'm not saying that the victim is always going to be 100% suspicious. i'm saying about the best you're going to get out of the pathetically weak threat level represented from 1d6 damage per round when there are people doing between 5 and 10 times as much damage in most parties is a turn or two of distraction, even if they believe the illusion is 100% real. which you can already accomplish with other illusion spells (or other spells in general). the things that phantasmal force don't justify the major drawbacks.

[Chugger]

I question that though because the spell doesn't have anything about changing the illusion AFTER casting it, just that you decide what appears and how it acts, and then let it go. As for argument I was thinking like "open the gate" "but sir you said it must remain closed until sundown no matter what anybody says!" *Spell taps into what the guard would see as the most rational reason and replies appropriately*



... Holy crap that's brilliant. How did I miss that. If nothing else, they are not going to be able to fight well. Even the smartest and most skilled fighters would have to address it.

You could be right - probably why I was thinking the imp appears and gives a quickie message meaning "time to get out of here and hide if you wanna live" so there is no arguing - the imp has already vanished.

Yes, almost anything would have to stop and deal with the tiny monster in their drawers! :D

[Zorku]

the players know how much damage they're taking. i'm going to give monsters the exact same treatment unless there's a compelling reason not to. it is metagaming to assume that only the PCs know how close they are to death and how threatening each attack is while everyone else is completely ignorant.
If you roll behind a screen and you don't tell them if you're rolling high or low, how long does it take them to figure out about what the actual damage is? In the example of the phantasmal chimera you seemed to imply that it only takes one round. If they roll a 1 then that's well below the attack bonus that should be applied to a single hit, but if they roll a 6 then it's not so clear what the actual dice code for the damage was. They could however, make improvised weapon attacks. Hurling any small rock or tree branch at the target should qualify as a proper attack, but register a low dice roll. Your NPCs probably don't ignore the party if they use improvised weapons during the first round of combat, because they right expect something worse to happen if they let their guard down or tolerate this. How long should it take under those circumstances?


I recall the PHB defining hit points as something like "an accumulation of your characters physical and mental health" or something like that.


Just to expand on that, in 1st or 2nd edition the basic idea was that your first 3 hit dice were the general gain to body integrity that comes from training and fitness, and then everything after that as a combination of stamina, luck, and whatever else. 3rd edition just decided that all hp was stamina and luck type stuff and any hit that knocked you out was the first one to properly connect and knock you the hell out.

I don't think either of these was codified in a player's handbook quite like that so much as referenced by the developers here and there.
I don't know what mention 4th edition made on any of this.

5e's PHB just says that hitpoints represent how tough you are in combat and dangerous situations.

[SharkForce]

If you roll behind a screen and you don't tell them if you're rolling high or low, how long does it take them to figure out about what the actual damage is? In the example of the phantasmal chimera you seemed to imply that it only takes one round. If they roll a 1 then that's well below the attack bonus that should be applied to a single hit, but if they roll a 6 then it's not so clear what the actual dice code for the damage was. They could however, make improvised weapon attacks. Hurling any small rock or tree branch at the target should qualify as a proper attack, but register a low dice roll. Your NPCs probably don't ignore the party if they use improvised weapons during the first round of combat, because they right expect something worse to happen if they let their guard down or tolerate this. How long should it take under those circumstances?

the monster can't throw rocks or trees at you. it has to be next to you to deal damage (or actually in your space). it also can't make the rocks or trees it is supposed to be throwing at you disappear, so that's gonna become obviously suspicious *really* quick.

a phantasmal force illusion might get 1-2 rounds of distraction value before it starts to become obvious that it's a total chump. i can think of a lot of better uses for a level 2 spell slot.

[Chugger]

I'm fighting for Phantasmal Force, but there are 2 lvl 1 spells that "control" most creatures - dissonant whispers and tasha's hideous laughter. THL needs 4 int or so to work, so that rules out most beasts (I'd say it works on hyenas regardless! :D ). I forget if DW requires int. Neither work on undead or elementals, probably. But they're save or suck spells, the main problem being the target making its first save (or in the case of THL have it save at the end of its first turn after the spell lands, meaning not so much bang for the buck).

Suggestion is generally far more powerful but requires a common language. Crown of Madness is a strangely limited spell and requires a lot of constant maintenance on the caster's part. Hold Person is awesome but only works on humanoids.

Well, I guess to determine if PF is worth trying is to look at the wide range of things it works on (does it work on beasts?). If you want to "control" something you should be able to, if you understand what your DM will and won't go for (unless DM goes for nothing at all re illusions). Given that save or suck rolls tend not to last all that long anyway (most allow a save each turn to end it), PF doesn't have that feature - and becomes a "judgment call" for the DM.

It's always going to be a hard spell to use. But Arcane Tricksters and possibly Illusion school wizards may want/need to give it a try.

[Zorku]

the monster can't throw rocks or trees at you. it has to be next to you to deal damage (or actually in your space). it also can't make the rocks or trees it is supposed to be throwing at you disappear, so that's gonna become obviously suspicious *really* quick.

a phantasmal force illusion might get 1-2 rounds of distraction value before it starts to become obvious that it's a total chump. i can think of a lot of better uses for a level 2 spell slot.

But you automatically rationalize that. You didn't have time to count all of the rocks or branches in the area (and when you think about it, the world is kind of a mostly blank and flat mat with a grid on it whenever you're not paying attention to how many rocks are in the area...)

Fine, don't lob rocks. Grasp them in a talon and swing that at the target. Deciding something is weak after 2 rounds isn't appropriate for dice math, and your creatures are apparently smart enough to know dice math. Rolling only 1s and 2s on 2d6 happens more than 10% of the time, and random results don't follow a normal distribution until you've got a much larger sample size.


What's your motivation here though? The spell text seems to go out of its way to explain that illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm do not give away the illusory nature of the phantasm... but you seem to be saying that they do. Quick reality check: what bad things happen to your game or your world if people do not figure out that this spell is all fake stuff that they can safely ignore, by any means other than the investigation check defined in the spell text?

[jas61292]

As an alternative response to the whole "low damage so they won't think it is a threat" argument, I'd say the key is to make it so they do not care about the amount of damage.

Creatures do not treat combat as a purely mathematical construct that should be solved without emotion. Make a creature they despise and they will be more likely to keep fighting it regardless of damage. Better yet, have the phantasm mock and taunt them.

Alternatively, make creatures with multiple well known methods of attack, but only have them use weaker ones. Do you ignore a young dragon because its claws are comparatively weak? No, you try and take it out quick to avoid the massive damage from it's breath weapon. Either that or you just flee the battle entirely (because dragons are scary), which is a victory of a different sort.