Please help me optimize my fighter.

[Nuavion]

I am a Chaotic Good human lvl 12 fighter and lvl 1 barbarian who worships Tempus. I'm about to level up and I was looking to possibly go into a prestige class.

Abilities:
STR 16
DEX 20
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 11

Base attack bonus: 13/8/3

Special Abilities:
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
(Bastard Sword)
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Improved Critical

I also have the Pounce ability from the Lion Totem.

I primarily use a shocking burst bastard sword in my main hand and the Sunsword in my off hand. I rage and use the Belt of Battle for as many attacks as I can dish out. I'd like to do as much damage as possible and/or be more versatile in combat.

Any help is greatly and truly appreciated. Thank you.

Edit:
Skills:
Balance 6
Bluff 2
Climb 12
Handle Animal 5
Intimidate 4
Jump 10
Listen 5
Ride 7
Search 5
Slight of hand 4
Spot 6
Survival 3
Tumble 11

Twisted Charge

Gear:
+3 Mythril Breastplate
+2 Gloves of Dexterity
+3 Amulet of Natural Armor
+2 Ring of Protection
Belt of Battle
20,000+ gold

Books available:
Everything is available except for home brew.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmm. You don't have a lot of (class) abilities to find synergy with, just TWF. And I'm not sure how many prestige classes you qualify for at this point. Sadly, Exotic Weapon Master doesn't have any good TWF abilities, which rules out an option you qualify for.

Ideally, you'd take a level in warblade and continue in that class until you get bored, perhaps taking some levels in Bloodclaw Master (a two-weapon fighting prestige class) to break it up. But I don't think that's the optimization level you're playing at.

How about the Book of Exalted Deed's Champion of Gwynharwyf? You'd need to swap some feats to get in, but it's a great "holy whirlwind" barbarian prestige class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skills? What books are available? Can any of your feats be retrained? As ExLibrisMortis said, you're not going to easily qualify for most PrCs-- most don't require anything from that big list of Weapon Focus feats beyond the first, nor do I remember seeing Improved/Greater TWF very often...

Off the top of my head, and guessing you might be limited to core... Dragon Disciple? Take a level of Bard and 8 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana) to qualify and slip in at 15th. That would leave you at 20th level with 16 BAB (all four attacks), a bite attack at your full BAB, +4 Str all the time, +2 natural armor, and blindsense-- not a bad setup, all told. The Str bonus makes up for the class' medium BAB easily enough.

Alternately, taking a few levels of Rogue might be nice too, to get a little bonus damage on each of your many hits. More Barbarian isn't the worst idea either.

[Nuavion]

Hmm. You don't have a lot of (class) abilities to find synergy with, just TWF. And I'm not sure how many prestige classes you qualify for at this point. Sadly, Exotic Weapon Master doesn't have any good TWF abilities, which rules out an option you qualify for.

Ideally, you'd take a level in warblade and continue in that class until you get bored, perhaps taking some levels in Bloodclaw Master (a two-weapon fighting prestige class) to break it up. But I don't think that's the optimization level you're playing at.

How about the Book of Exalted Deed's Champion of Gwynharwyf? You'd need to swap some feats to get in, but it's a great "holy whirlwind" barbarian prestige class.
Looked into these. Would I need Swordsage for Bloodclaw Master as well?


Skills? What books are available? Can any of your feats be retrained? As ExLibrisMortis said, you're not going to easily qualify for most PrCs-- most don't require anything from that big list of Weapon Focus feats beyond the first, nor do I remember seeing Improved/Greater TWF very often...

Off the top of my head, and guessing you might be limited to core... Dragon Disciple? Take a level of Bard and 8 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana) to qualify and slip in at 15th. That would leave you at 20th level with 16 BAB (all four attacks), a bite attack at your full BAB, +4 Str all the time, +2 natural armor, and blindsense-- not a bad setup, all told. The Str bonus makes up for the class' medium BAB easily enough.

Alternately, taking a few levels of Rogue might be nice too, to get a little bonus damage on each of your many hits. More Barbarian isn't the worst idea either.
Dragon Disciple sounds like fun. We have a Rogue and a half in our party already so possibly the rest in Barbarian if I find nothing I can do. I will update in a few hours with the rest of the details needed as soon as I can.

I appreciate the responses. 🙂

[Grod_The_Giant]

Looked into these. Would I need Swordsage for Bloodclaw Master as well?
Nah; Warblades get Tiger Claw maneuvers. Bloodclaw Master is pretty mediocre, though. If Tome of Battle is available, hopping into Warblade is probably going to be your best option. Don't forget that non-ToB classes still count for 1/2 initiator level each, letting you jump straight up to 4th level maneuvers.

Also worth considering, if Complete Champion is around, is a dip in Cleric (or better yet, Cloistered Cleric) to pick up Travel Devotion via the domain tradeout. With the Cleric's turning to power it, that'll get you 2 minutes worth of swift-action movement a day, meaning a lot more full attacks. A Reliquary Holy Symbol (MiC) or Nightstick (Libris Mortis) can easily add another 1-2 daily uses' worth of Turning.

[Nuavion]

Nah; Warblades get Tiger Claw maneuvers. Bloodclaw Master is pretty mediocre, though. If Tome of Battle is available, hopping into Warblade is probably going to be your best option. Don't forget that non-ToB classes still count for 1/2 initiator level each, letting you jump straight up to 4th level maneuvers.

Also worth considering, if Complete Champion is around, is a dip in Cleric (or better yet, Cloistered Cleric) to pick up Travel Devotion via the domain tradeout. With the Cleric's turning to power it, that'll get you 2 minutes worth of swift-action movement a day, meaning a lot more full attacks. A Reliquary Holy Symbol (MiC) or Nightstick (Libris Mortis) can easily add another 1-2 daily uses' worth of Turning.
I'm loving that Cleric idea. Also, please excuse the noob question, but what does the bold mean?

[DarkSoul]

Initiator level is like caster level for the ToB classes. Unlike caster levels, though, your non-initiator classes still count as 1/2 an initiator level each, so Fighter 12/Barb 1 counts as IL 6.5 (13 levels at 1/2 IL each, round down), and a warblade level would make it 7, giving you access to 4th-level maneuvers and stances immediately.

[Godskook]

I'm loving that Cleric idea. Also, please excuse the noob question, but what does the bold mean?

All maneuvers require you to have an Initiator level(*). Since you're a 12th level character, you qualify as having 6 initiator levels for all purposes, but most notably, for qualifying for selecting maneuvers. This means you can get 4th level maneuvers quite quickly, as early as your first or second level(RAW: Second; RAI: probably first Ask your DM).

*Maneuvers require you to have twice their maneuver level, minus one, to qualify for them. Meaning a 9th(the highest) requires an initiator level of 17(9*2 - 1). Since your IL is already 6, you'll have IL 7 for your first Warblade level, and IL 8 for your second, qualifying you for 4th level maneuvers(again, depending on how your DM rules Warblade 1).

[ATHATH]

Can you retroactively add alternate class features/take variants of the classes that you currently have? If so, the Sneak Attack Fighter (and maybe the Hit and Run Fighter) ACFs and the Zhentarim Fighter substitution levels (which, strangely enough, make you give up nothing in exchange for some mildly-interesting intimidate-related stuff) might be good for your Fighter levels, and the Lion Totem (the one that gives you the Pounce) and Whirling Frenzy ACFs are stupidly good for your Barbarian dip.

If you can retrain feats, I'd recommend throwing out the whole Weapon Focus line- to be blunt, it's terrible, and there are far better uses for your feats (like, say, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, or the prerequisites to some good PrCs). Bastard swords are pretty bad as well (due to eating up a feat slot for an extra 3 or so damage over, say, a dagger or a scimitar or the like), but since they're probably a part of your character concept (and you've bought/found magical bastard swords), you can probably leave EWP: Bastard Sword in (plus, bastard swords are cool).

What the heck are you trying to do with your skill points? They're all over the place- are you planning to use them to qualify for feats or skill tricks or something? You do know about skill tricks, right? They're kind of like "mini-feats" that you can purchase with skill points instead of feat slots. Check 'em out.

What's the rest of the party like? Please give more detail than "Wizard" or "Rogue"; say something like "Wizard that focuses on Evocation spells" or "skillmonkey/stealth Rogue".

[ATHATH]

All maneuvers require you to have an Initiator level(*). Since you're a 12th level character, you qualify as having 6 initiator levels for all purposes, but most notably, for qualifying for selecting maneuvers. This means you can get 4th level maneuvers quite quickly, as early as your first or second level(RAW: Second; RAI: probably first Ask your DM).

*Maneuvers require you to have twice their maneuver level, minus one, to qualify for them. Meaning a 9th(the highest) requires an initiator level of 17(9*2 - 1). Since your IL is already 6, you'll have IL 7 for your first Warblade level, and IL 8 for your second, qualifying you for 4th level maneuvers(again, depending on how your DM rules Warblade 1).
Note that you do NOT get the NUMBER of maneuvers that a 7th-level Warblade gets; you merely get to pick from higher-level options when you gain new maneuvers.

[Nuavion]

Initiator level is like caster level for the ToB classes. Unlike caster levels, though, your non-initiator classes still count as 1/2 an initiator level each, so Fighter 12/Barb 1 counts as IL 6.5 (13 levels at 1/2 IL each, round down), and a warblade level would make it 7, giving you access to 4th-level maneuvers and stances immediately.


All maneuvers require you to have an Initiator level(*). Since you're a 12th level character, you qualify as having 6 initiator levels for all purposes, but most notably, for qualifying for selecting maneuvers. This means you can get 4th level maneuvers quite quickly, as early as your first or second level(RAW: Second; RAI: probably first Ask your DM).

Thank you both, I honestly had no idea about Initiator levels.


Can you retroactively add alternate class features/take variants of the classes that you currently have? If so, the Sneak Attack Fighter (and maybe the Hit and Run Fighter) ACFs and the Zhentarim Fighter substitution levels (which, strangely enough, make you give up nothing in exchange for some mildly-interesting intimidate-related stuff) might be good for your Fighter levels, and the Lion Totem (the one that gives you the Pounce) and Whirling Frenzy ACFs are stupidly good for your Barbarian dip.

If you can retrain feats, I'd recommend throwing out the whole Weapon Focus line- to be blunt, it's terrible, and there are far better uses for your feats (like, say, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, or the prerequisites to some good PrCs). Bastard swords are pretty bad as well (due to eating up a feat slot for an extra 3 or so damage over, say, a dagger or a scimitar or the like), but since they're probably a part of your character concept (and you've bought/found magical bastard swords), you can probably leave EWP: Bastard Sword in (plus, bastard swords are cool).

What the heck are you trying to do with your skill points? They're all over the place- are you planning to use them to qualify for feats or skill tricks or something? You do know about skill tricks, right? They're kind of like "mini-feats" that you can purchase with skill points instead of feat slots. Check 'em out.

What's the rest of the party like? Please give more detail than "Wizard" or "Rogue"; say something like "Wizard that focuses on Evocation spells" or "skillmonkey/stealth Rogue".


Note that you do NOT get the NUMBER of maneuvers that a 7th-level Warblade gets; you merely get to pick from higher-level options when you gain new maneuvers.

I'll bring this up to my DM, but I do have the Spirit Lion Totem that gives Pounce if that's any redeeming quality to my character.

I'll also ask about retraining feats. I've thought about it myself, I just wasn't too sure what would be better to replace them with. I have the Twisted Charge feat but I just learned about skill tricks not long ago. They're in The Complete Scoundrel right?

The rest of the party includes a Gnome Master of Masks Rogue who tries to steal literally anything and everything he can. Two Half Elf Rangers, just straight Rangers, one plays more stealthy and the other mainly uses his bow and a Drow Wizard who is fairly new and I'm not to sure about his specifics. Our Fire Genasi Cleric had to step away from the game for awhile, so he's not currently with us.

[Darrin]

Most of your build is already "locked in" so I'm not sure how much it will help, but consider perusing of the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) for ideas.

First thing that came to my mind is "Why no Oversized TWF?" but then I noticed the sunsword. Very nice *SCORE* there!

Since your build is already established, the Tome of Battle/Warblade advice is worth considering. Warblade maneuvers will give you a few flashy tricks to make combat interesting, but they also offer an opportunity to counter some weaknesses of a melee meatbag build: Mountain Hammer doesn't work well with TWF but it's a good counter for Damage Reduction, and Iron Heart Surge is a bit of a rules headache but can be used to counter adverse conditions or spell effects that fighters have difficulty shrugging off. The problem with Tome of Battle is it's a new subsystem that requires some time and effort to use well, and some DMs get really bent out of shape about how it changes the power level between optimized and non-optimized PCs.

However, Tome of Battle doesn't entirely address your problems with TWF: you need more bonus damage, and you need a reliable method to move + full attack. Adding Warblade levels would help a little here... Sudden Leap or Pouncing Charge can get you move + full attack, but not every round. And while there are a lot of maneuvers that add bonus damage, they are usually standard-action strikes rather than something that will add damage to a TWF full attack.

Ok, so... bonus damage. You're kinda "in for a penny, in for a pound" on the Weapon Specialization track. You'll want to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII) next. If you want to consider sticking with Fighter, you can head towards Fighter 18 and get Weapon Supremacy. If you want to crank up some more damage, then you may want to consider picking up Power Attack, Oversized TWF (you can't power-attack with a light offhand weapon), Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. This lets you convert an AC penalty into bonus damage on your bastard swords. You can add Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer) and Power Lunge (Ghostwalk) if you can fit them in. You may also consider picking up a level of Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior) for the "Uncanny Blow" stunt, which may allow you to get two-handed damage on both bastard swords (the wording is unclear, check with your DM).

Second problem: move + full attack. This is why Grod suggested a Cloistered Cleric dip to pick up the Travel Devotion. You can use a swift action to move, then you have a full attack ready to go for TWF. If you need a deity, Fharlanghn is in Core, and you can pick up the Luck domain for the 1/day reroll, or Celerity for +10' speed. I also like the Dragon deities from Races of the Dragon: Aasterinian has Travel, Luck, and Trickery (create a quasi-duplicate via Trickery Devotion). Io has Travel, Knowledge (extra damage from Knowledge Devotion), Strength (enlarge person is a great melee buff), and the Magic domain (activate spell-trigger items as a wizard). Taking Magic would let you put Wand Chambers (100 GP, Dungeonscape) in your bastard swords, and you could activate swift-action wands for some additional bonus damage: blades of fire (Spell Compendium), blade of blood (PHBII), lesser energy surge (PHBII), etc.

If you still want to go onto Weapon Supremacy, Fighter 18/Barb 1/Cleric 1 still works.