PF - GM Advice - How Would Uncontrolled Mindless Construct Act?

[unseenmage]

This answer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22269060&postcount=736) in the RAW Q&A thread has me wondering how an uncommanded mindless Construct should/would behave?

Lesser Simulacrum (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/simulacrum.html) used to create a mindless Construct creates a mindless Construct without orders or commands.
How then should an uncontrolled mindless Construct behave?

RAW and even canon examples are more than welcome.

Note: Control Construct (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/controlConstruct.html) and Apparent Master (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Apparent%20Master) should both allow one to command a Lesser Simulacrum mindless Construct.

[zlefin]

I don't have any RAW;
I'd assume that without orders it takes no actions other than self-defense. It might randomly walk about too.
If the construct has an innate nature in the monster entry detailing its behavior than it would tend to do that; but otherwise, it wouldn't really do anything.

[Wartex1]

I don't know about every construct, but Golems continue to follow the last order given to them by their master until otherwise instructed, but will retaliate if attacked.

[unseenmage]

I don't know about every construct, but Golems continue to follow the last order given to them by their master until otherwise instructed, but will retaliate if attacked.

Except that when created by Lesser Simulacrum, as detailed in the OP, the never get any orders in the first place. :smallfrown:

[Wartex1]

Except that when created by Lesser Simulacrum, as detailed in the OP, the never get any orders in the first place. :smallfrown:

Oops.

I'd just say, if it's a golem, the construct would just sorta stand there awaiting orders, though it might eventually go berserk.

[icefractal]

For mindless constructs, I'd say they usually take no actions but self defense. But for a Lesser Simulacrum in particular, I think it would have motivations similar to the original creature. It presumably knows it's a copy, so it wouldn't just try to step into the original's place, but it might (depending on alignment and personality) try to eliminate and replace the original. It might also team up with the original, move somewhere far away so as to avoid them, or various other possibilities.

So I'd say if you're casting the spell, have a plan to influence the simulacrum's actions, whether by persuading or controlling it. And you might want to cast it in a locked room, so it doesn't run off before you have a chance to talk to it.

Something that Simulacrum never specifies - how much does a Simulacrum know? Could you interrogate one to have it tell you all the target's secrets? Because if so, then really no knowledge is safe.

[unseenmage]

For mindless constructs, I'd say they usually take no actions but self defense. But for a Lesser Simulacrum in particular, I think it would have motivations similar to the original creature. It presumably knows it's a copy, so it wouldn't just try to step into the original's place, but it might (depending on alignment and personality) try to eliminate and replace the original. It might also team up with the original, move somewhere far away so as to avoid them, or various other possibilities.

So I'd say if you're casting the spell, have a plan to influence the simulacrum's actions, whether by persuading or controlling it. And you might want to cast it in a locked room, so it doesn't run off before you have a chance to talk to it.

Something that Simulacrum never specifies - how much does a Simulacrum know? Could you interrogate one to have it tell you all the target's secrets? Because if so, then really no knowledge is safe.
Firstly, Lesser Simulacrum only lasts for a few hours, a day at best. Secondly, my query was in regards to mindless Constructs specifically so there is no mind to influence.

You do touch on an interesting point here, are the commands of the original construct copied with its Simulacrum, Lesser or not?

[Florian]

This touches on a prior conversation that we didn't finish.

Both spells, Simulacrum and Lesser Simulacrum create a "shadow" copy of the original creature.

Now we do have a slight problem with resolving the situation using RAW, because we lack a sample creature to see how that should actually look like, the Universal Monster Rules don´t feature the points "Illusion" and "Shadow", so what we have are the basic Magic Rules to go with.

The unresolved issue is that the caster of an illusion, even a shadow-type, knows that it is an illusion, while the creature itself is the result of a spell effect.

[unseenmage]

For me the Instantaneous duration of the Simulacrum spells shift the emphasis from the 'quasi' to the 'real' side of 'quasi real'.

Simulacrum and the spells that inherit from it just don't share enough language with other shadow and illusion spells for me to find much clarity there.

I am more than hapy to be wrong though, please do find clarity for these awfully vague spells.

[Geddy2112]

I agree a mindless construct given no orders will do nothing but stand there and defend itself if attacked.

A similacrum of a mindless construct would not have any orders, as it just makes a physical copy "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD(and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)" it says nothing else about motives, alignment, etc.

Further, "At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command" and I interpret this to mean it has no ability to act on its own, it must be commanded to do something otherwise it cannot act.

[Psyren]

You do touch on an interesting point here, are the commands of the original construct copied with its Simulacrum, Lesser or not?

The spell doesn't say it copies commands - only the things Geddy mentioned.

[Bucky]

I'd say that, from first principles, an uncommanded Lesser Simulacrum would generally behave the similarly to the base creature.

If you make a Lesser Simulacrum of a mindless creature like a shrieker, its lack of mind won't keep it from acting like a shrieker any more than a shrieker's lack of mind would.

If you make a Lesser Simulacrum of a mindless construct that relies on commands, it'll copy that construct's "idle" behavior, defined as its behavior when it's done with all its tasks.

[unseenmage]

The spell doesn't say it copies commands - only the things Geddy mentioned.

Sorry but the first thing that came to mind is that if this is the case then the copy also lacks everything else not explicitly listed like mass and a comprehension of logic and language and, oh i dont know, the bottoms of its feet.

Am not even trying to be facetious, just toying with the logic and where each person who interprets these spells puts their emphasis.

[Psyren]

Sorry but the first thing that came to mind is that if this is the case then the copy also lacks everything else not explicitly listed like mass and a comprehension of logic and language and, oh i dont know, the bottoms of its feet.

Am not even trying to be facetious, just toying with the logic and where each person who interprets these spells puts their emphasis.

I can pretty readily distinguish between external commands given to a creature and the bottoms of its feet though.

[unseenmage]

I can pretty readily distinguish between external commands given to a creature and the bottoms of its feet though.

Your and my distinguished abilities aren't the test though.
Can the rules distinguish between external commands given to a creature and the bottoms of its feet?
That's my question.