Ironfang Invasion Warpriest, Need Warpath Advice

[Adam500]

So the other day one of the guys I game with asked me and two others to make characters for Ironfang Invasion. He told us to be as optimized as possible since there would only be 3 of us, and he is allowing DSP material. The rest of the party is a Hunter (for animal companion and disable device access) and a Shaman (Lore, to give us some Arcane abilities). I'm the 'front man' of the group playing a Warpriest of Gorum with a Greatsword. Because of course I am.

I didn't choose a Path of War class initially because of a bit of miscommunication (would totally have made a Warder. I love Zweihander Sentinel more than the air I breathe) but have enough gold on hand that I could conceivable retrain into Warpath Follower (treating it like an archtype for retraining).

I had originally planned my whole build around Divine Fighting Technique (Gorum's Swordsmanship) to do Vital Strike charges... and I'm curious if this would let me add Vital Strike damage to the various Strike maneuvers that cause me to charge (I think a strict reading says yes, but I could have missed something). The original build is in the following spoilers:

CG Human
Str 16+2, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7 (30pt Buy because of 3-man party)
Traits - Fate's Favored, Blight-Burned
Warpriest 16+ of Gorum
1 - Power Attack
1 - Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (B)
1 - Imp Overrun
3 - Furious Focus
3 - Combat Reflexes (B)
5 - Charge Through
6 - Vital Strike (B)
6 - Martial Focus (B*)
7 - Gorum's Swordsmanship
9 - Cut From the Air
9 - Smash from the Air (B)
11 - Improved Critical
12 - Improved Vital Strike (B)
12 - Bonus Feat (B*)
13 - Level Feat
15 - Devastating Strike
15 - Bonus Feat (B)
*Extra Bonus Feats at 6 and 12 are from Human FCB. Most APs end around lvl16, so planning beyond that is pointless.

Obviously access to maneuvers changes a few things. The right choices could eliminate the need for whole feats (I'm looking at you Smash/Cut from the Air) and I welcome suggestions on changes to the feat selection. But more importantly I'm unsure exactly which three Disciplines to select (Primal Fury for charging shenanigans seems obvious, beyond that I'm spoiled for choice, EDIT:If any disciplines have maneuvers that grant luck bonuses, they would be strong choices as well). Whatever I pick, maneuver selection is going to be tight.

I'm aware of the Battle Templar PrC, but not sure if it really helps at all. If someone makes a strong argument for it I could look at it again.

[exelsisxax]

Edit: so the wording on that ability is weird, so it will technically work but ONLY on maneuvers that specifically have you charge. It won't work on boosts/stances that let you gain charge advantages. You're super pidgeonholed with this tactic. Primal fury is as you said a necessity to make this work. Black seraph also has some charge strikes, but you can't get with a greatsword deity.

I WOULD definitely recommend battle templar, because it's awesome, except you can't afford that when your feats and maneuvers are tied up making exactly one tactic work.

[angelpalm]

Move action spells and swift action healing sound like a good enough reason for me to take Battle Templar.

Dip into Zweihander and Ordained defender Warder if the dm lets you so you can gain a scaling shield bonus and better maneuvers while you are two handing your greatsword. Battle Templar progresses that particular Warder ability that is needed for that. Then since you gain combat reflexes for free you can take Seize the Opportunity to use vital strike with your attacks of opportunity. Charge in and then vital strike anyone that tries to get away.

[Adam500]

Taking another look at Battle Templar, starting from the top.

I lose 2 WILL and 2 levels of spellcasting over 10 levels. That hurts, but could be worth the trade.

I gain access to Silver Crane with my first level. A discipline I strongly wanted access to, but couldn't get. Also pretty sure the class will progress my Fervor (and maybe Blessings? That one seems more up in the air). So that is nice.

Reach of the Divine seems a tad redundant with Fervor. Upside is I can use it on others, but that is what the party Shaman is for theoretically.
Martial Healing turns all my strikes into pseudo-Silver Crane healing strikes, at the cost of my swift actions that I use to cast as a Warpriest.
Divine Recovery lets me recover expended maneuvers as a swift action by trading spells (not sure how I feel about that), and heals me if I overcharge it.
Guardian of Faith seems like a pretty mediocre stance for a 5th level.
Sacred bonus to AC when I cast is nice, having it only be through earlier ability restricts it's usefulness.
Heres something good, damage bonus to my strikes for casting spells... wont ever be higher than a +5 though since I'm not a full caster.
Divine Inspiration is useless unless someone else in my party is an intiator.
Bolstering Channel would be great on a cleric, but 2 Fervor to recover a maneuver is asking too much.
Last ability turns my 4th level spells into buffing micro-Heals. Which is nice, except I dont get the effects just my party.

The class definitely has some interesting features, and were I a Cleric dipping Warder I'd strongly consider it. Warpriest however has a lot of anti-synergy going on with it's abilities.

The best use I could see for me would be dipping 1 level (maybe 2, depending on BAB/Save math) for Silver Crane access.

[exelsisxax]

Taking another look at Battle Templar, starting from the top.

I lose 2 WILL and 2 levels of spellcasting over 10 levels. That hurts, but could be worth the trade.

I gain access to Silver Crane with my first level. A discipline I strongly wanted access to, but couldn't get. Also pretty sure the class will progress my Fervor (and maybe Blessings? That one seems more up in the air). So that is nice.

Reach of the Divine seems a tad redundant with Fervor. Upside is I can use it on others, but that is what the party Shaman is for theoretically.
Martial Healing turns all my strikes into pseudo-Silver Crane healing strikes, at the cost of my swift actions that I use to cast as a Warpriest.
Divine Recovery lets me recover expended maneuvers as a swift action by trading spells (not sure how I feel about that), and heals me if I overcharge it.
Guardian of Faith seems like a pretty mediocre stance for a 5th level.
Sacred bonus to AC when I cast is nice, having it only be through earlier ability restricts it's usefulness.
Heres something good, damage bonus to my strikes for casting spells... wont ever be higher than a +5 though since I'm not a full caster.
Divine Inspiration is useless unless someone else in my party is an intiator.
Bolstering Channel would be great on a cleric, but 2 Fervor to recover a maneuver is asking too much.
Last ability turns my 4th level spells into buffing micro-Heals. Which is nice, except I dont get the effects just my party.

The class definitely has some interesting features, and were I a Cleric dipping Warder I'd strongly consider it. Warpriest however has a lot of anti-synergy going on with it's abilities.

The best use I could see for me would be dipping 1 level (maybe 2, depending on BAB/Save math) for Silver Crane access.
Templar will progress blessings. The continued divine progression is a lot of what makes it so awesome.

Reach of the divine can target your allies and be used indefinitely, fervor-swift casting targets yourself only and has limited uses. Important: you can use BOTH.
Fervor, again, can run out. Martial healing does not run out and is ranged healing. Consider this: in one turn, a battle templar can heal with a silver crane strike, heal again with martial healing, and heal a third time with a divine reach'd Cure. Battle templar is maximizing your action economy options, not competing.
Divine recovery isn't great. It's an emergency button.
I don't see why guardian of the faith isn't great. It's significant, a super rare bonus type that will probably never come up on your allies to all the defensive stats. It's not an enhancement bonus or something similarly redundant.

But the biggest advantage is this: You get to be a full initiator. You aren't stuck with half-martial progression. Prestige classes get maneuvers known on the normal chart, not the archetype one. If you take level 6 and 7 in templar, you can pick up a level 4 maneuver - a level 7 warpath only just got level 3s. You didn't think guardian of the faith is a great level 5 stance - if you don't go templar, you get your 1st level 5 stance at 11. Do you really expect your campaign to go that long? If so, templar is even better because you can actually get 7th and higher maneuvers.

[Adam500]

But the biggest advantage is this: You get to be a full initiator. You aren't stuck with half-martial progression. Prestige classes get maneuvers known on the normal chart, not the archetype one. If you take level 6 and 7 in templar, you can pick up a level 4 maneuver - a level 7 warpath only just got level 3s. You didn't think guardian of the faith is a great level 5 stance - if you don't go templar, you get your 1st level 5 stance at 11. Do you really expect your campaign to go that long? If so, templar is even better because you can actually get 7th and higher maneuvers.

I'm not 100% sure that's true. Warpath follower's maneuver progression follows a different chart than normal, and all I can find about PrC martial classes is that they "add the full prestige class level to your martial disciple level to determine your initiator level." Which makes me think it would just progress me on the Warpath's chart. Can you cite a reference?

[exelsisxax]

I'm not 100% sure that's true. Warpath follower's maneuver progression follows a different chart than normal, and all I can find about PrC martial classes is that they "add the full prestige class level to your martial disciple level to determine your initiator level." Which makes me think it would just progress me on the Warpath's chart. Can you cite a reference?

Don't know where it is off the top of my head. PrCs work exactly like advanced study: maneuvers gained through them use primary initiator level cap instead of any other limitation your classes may have. PrCs ignore the archetype charts in every way - read the maneuvers entry for the PrC carefully.

[Adam500]

Nevermind, found it. It's in Warpath follower's text.

"The warpath follower learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as indicated on Table 2-4: Warpath Maneuver Progression. The maximum level of maneuvers gained through warpath follower levels is limited by those listed in that table as well, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat. A warpath follower must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See the Systems and Use chapter in Path of War for more details on how maneuvers are used."

Still not sure about a full 10 levels, Battelfield Invocation dosn't seem worth the extra dropped spell level progression.

If I go Warpriest 6/Battle Templar 9 I only lose bonus feats from 9 and 12; and I still keep full Battle Templar maneuver progression ending with
10 know, 7 readied, 5 stances and 8th level manuevers.

The last book of the campaign says its for 16-17 level characters, so I should plan for that. Debating the Warder dip.

All this also raises the question of whether I take Iron Tortoise or Golden Lion maneuvers, and what my third discipline should be alongisde that and Primal Fury.

[upho]

You're super pidgeonholed with this tactic. Primal fury is as you said a necessity to make this work. Black seraph also has some charge strikes, but you can't get with a greatsword deity.

I WOULD definitely recommend battle templar, because it's awesome, except you can't afford that when your feats and maneuvers are tied up making exactly one tactic work.This. Though you can actually gain access to Black Seraph through the Unorthodox Method (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/traits/unorthodox-method-regional-any/) trait (gained via Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) if necessary) or a dip into a class/archetype with access, I wouldn't recommend this unless perhaps if you also decide to focus on demoralization, since the discipline is otherwise of very limited use for a PC with a non-evil alignment.

However, it wouldn't require that much investment for you to get more out of the Vital Strike feats and become less charge dependent, making your combat style more versatile and more easily combined with the Battle Templar's Reach of the Divine. So the ZS OD warder dip + Seize the Opportunity combo for a "charge in and then vital strike anyone that tries to get away" general tactic suggested by angelpalm is definitely doable. It does require quite a bit of thought to use optimally in a real game though, as it will probably make it more difficult to choose and make the most of your maneuvers and actions, especially during your first round in combat.

But more importantly, there are no options as beneficial for you as the Battle Templar PrC. It's simply that great for a warpath follower. Which means that if you want to optimize your PC, you should primarily build around the BT's and the warpriest's mechanics, having those and your combat role(s) primarily influence which other options to pick. Which for example means that if you find your current charge focus is difficult to combine with the BT, you should try to replace the charge focus, not the BT levels. If you build in this manner in a game allowing all DSP options, the power of your build is in practice basically only limited by your preferences and the power level of the game in question.

So before I can give you any detailed suggestions, I'd like to know which combat role(s) you want to fill and any other preferences. With a hunter in the party, I'd personally probably go for a defender and melee control/debuff role, rather than the competing striker role of your current charge focused build.

Btw, there are only three maneuvers granting luck bonuses, and all of them are of the Cursed Razor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/cursed-razor-maneuvers/) discipline. You may gain access by choosing it as one of your three warpath follower disciplines since heavy blades are discipline weapons. While CR wouldn't be a bad discipline for you on its own, I wouldn't recommend it unless you decide to focus on curse maneuvers. So I'd simply opt for the usual buffs granting luck bonuses, perhaps also buying/crafting a Luckstone in later levels.


Edit: so the wording on that ability is weird, so it will technically work but ONLY on maneuvers that specifically have you charge. It won't work on boosts/stances that let you gain charge advantages.I actually don't see anything in the current RAW preventing you from combining Gorum's Swordmanship with charge-specific benefits from boosts or stances (such as Momentum Crash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Momentum-Crash)) on a regular charge as well as one granted by a strike (such as Panthera on the Hunt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Panthera-on-the-Hunt)). Gorum's Swordmanship wouldn't work with the Martial Charge feat though.


I'm not 100% sure that's true. Warpath follower's maneuver progression follows a different chart than normal, and all I can find about PrC martial classes is that they "add the full prestige class level to your martial disciple level to determine your initiator level." Which makes me think it would just progress me on the Warpath's chart. Can you cite a reference?The relevant rules text is in the Maneuver feature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/warpath-follower-template) of all PoW archetypes and class templates for non-initiator classes (my emphasis):

"The maximum level of maneuvers gained through [archetype name] levels is limited by those listed in that table as well, although this restriction does not apply to maneuvers added to his maneuvers known through other methods, such as prestige classes or the Advanced Study feat."

[Adam500]

So before I can give you any detailed suggestions, I'd like to know which combat role(s) you want to fill and any other preferences. With a hunter in the party, I'd personally probably go for a defender and melee control/debuff role, rather than the competing striker role of your current charge focused build.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head on what I'm trying to do. The focus on the combat tactic I was employing (with a side order of Overrun combat maneuver) was for the purpose of trying to reach threats and dispatch them quickly, lacking tools to be effective otherwise (On it's own Warpriest is very good at self buffing and damage).


Btw, there are only three maneuvers granting luck bonuses, and all of them are of the Cursed Razor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/cursed-razor-maneuvers/) discipline. You may gain access by choosing it as one of your three warpath follower disciplines since heavy blades are discipline weapons. While CR wouldn't be a bad discipline for you on its own, I wouldn't recommend it unless you decide to focus on curse maneuvers. So I'd simply opt for the usual buffs granting luck bonuses, perhaps also buying/crafting a Luckstone in later levels.

I had that figured out by now, and I've done the curse-focused martial disciple in another game before. Its great, but not sure its the direction I want to go from here.


I actually don't see anything in the current RAW preventing you from combining Gorum's Swordmanship with charge-specific benefits from boosts or stances (such as Momentum Crash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Momentum-Crash)) on a regular charge as well as one granted by a strike (such as Panthera on the Hunt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Panthera-on-the-Hunt)). Gorum's Swordmanship wouldn't work with the Martial Charge feat though.

This would be my reading as well. And I'm curious if this could work to my advantage in some way, or if I'm still over-focusing a combat tactic that I should be moving away from. Primal Fury would of course be the best method to take advantage, and I require either Golden Lion or Iron Tortoise for Battle Templar (which I'm committed to at least 9 levels of now, see above), but my third discipline is still up in the air.

[Adam500]

Updated my build with the suggestions I've received so far.

CG Human
Traits - Fate's Favored, Blight Burned
Warpriest (Warpath Follower) 2/Warder 1/Warpriest+4/Battle Templar 10
1 -+0- Power Attack
1 -+0- Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
1 -+0- Imp Overrun
3 -+2- Combat Reflexes (B)
3 -+2- Shattered Mirror Style
4 -+3- Discipline Focus (Iron Tortoise) (B)
5 -+4- Martial Power
7 -+5- Shattered Mirror Waltz (B)
7 -+5- Vital Strike? (B)
7 -+5- Seize the Moment
9 -+6- Charge Through
11 -+8- Improved Critical
13 -+9- Devastating Strike?
15 -+11- Improved Vital Strike?
17 -+12- FEAT

I included a BAB progression just to help me eyeball a few things. Warpath disciplines will be Iron Tortoise/Primal Fury/Shattered Glass. Shattered glass style and it's subordinate feats are actually rather good for my tactics (buff shield bonus, ignore difficult terrain lets me charge all the things easier), but you'll notice I've dropped Gorum's swordsmanship but kept Vital Strike around -- Seize the moment is a large reason why, but I could do other things with those AoOs (like initiate strikes, or combat maneuvers) so I'm considering dropping them (hence the ?).

Basically I think this update to my build is a step in the right direction, but I'm still open to suggestions on how to tighten it up. Having Martial Power (its a pre-req for Battle Templar) means I fufill the combat expertise requirement on other feats, and I havn't looked too hard at options that opens up.

[exelsisxax]

Updated my build with the suggestions I've received so far.

CG Human
Traits - Fate's Favored, Blight Burned
Warpriest (Warpath Follower) 2/Warder 1/Warpriest+4/Battle Templar 10
1 -+0- Power Attack
1 -+0- Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
1 -+0- Imp Overrun
3 -+2- Combat Reflexes (B)
3 -+2- Shattered Mirror Style
4 -+3- Discipline Focus (Iron Tortoise) (B)
5 -+4- Martial Power
7 -+5- Shattered Mirror Waltz (B)
7 -+5- Vital Strike? (B)
7 -+5- Seize the Moment
9 -+6- Charge Through
11 -+8- Improved Critical
13 -+9- Devastating Strike?
15 -+11- Improved Vital Strike?
17 -+12- FEAT

I included a BAB progression just to help me eyeball a few things. Warpath disciplines will be Iron Tortoise/Primal Fury/Shattered Glass. Shattered glass style and it's subordinate feats are actually rather good for my tactics (buff shield bonus, ignore difficult terrain lets me charge all the things easier), but you'll notice I've dropped Gorum's swordsmanship but kept Vital Strike around -- Seize the moment is a large reason why, but I could do other things with those AoOs (like initiate strikes, or combat maneuvers) so I'm considering dropping them (hence the ?).

Basically I think this update to my build is a step in the right direction, but I'm still open to suggestions on how to tighten it up. Having Martial Power (its a pre-req for Battle Templar) means I fufill the combat expertise requirement on other feats, and I havn't looked too hard at options that opens up.

Style feats require you to be in a stance of that style's discipline. I don't see how you can get your money's worth from shattered mirror style.

Sieze the opportunity doesn't allow you to make strikes. You don't have usable combat maneuver feats either, so the only thing it does for you is vital strike. You can't make overruns with it, it doesn't let you move.

Combat reflexes is redundant: warders get it for free, but based on INT instead.

I don't think improved critical is worth it. Crits don't multiply strike or vital strike damage and greatswords don't have great crit range anyway. I might be convinced a falchion makes it worthwhile, but it doesn't seem to contribute meaningfully to this build.

If you want to be focused on defense and control, your focus is in the wrong place. Defense and control is WARDER. Warpriest contributes nothing to that particular goal. Warders, not warpriests, have aegis and eternal guardian and turbo combat patrol and taunts and multi-use counters. Warpriests don't hold a candle to that.

If defense is your goal, i'd recommend cutting off at 4 levels of warpriest. Warder/BT either have better class features or progress warpriest ones anyway.

[Adam500]

Style feats require you to be in a stance of that style's discipline. I don't see how you can get your money's worth from shattered mirror style.

Going to be one of my disciplines from both Warpath, and Battle Templar, and it seemed to synergize well with what I'm doing. Primal Fury Style was originally a consideration but the Warder dip convinced me to change my mind.


Sieze the opportunity doesn't allow you to make strikes. You don't have usable combat maneuver feats either, so the only thing it does for you is vital strike. You can't make overruns with it, it doesn't let you move.

TBF it was 3am when I posted that.


Combat reflexes is redundant: warders get it for free, but based on INT instead.

Which is why its listed as a bonus feat, on the same level I took a Warder dip.


I don't think improved critical is worth it. Crits don't multiply strike or vital strike damage and greatswords don't have great crit range anyway. I might be convinced a falchion makes it worthwhile, but it doesn't seem to contribute meaningfully to this build.

Fair enough, though I'm still looking for suggestions on higher level feat slots.


If you want to be focused on defense and control, your focus is in the wrong place. Defense and control is WARDER. Warpriest contributes nothing to that particular goal. Warders, not warpriests, have aegis and eternal guardian and turbo combat patrol and taunts and multi-use counters. Warpriests don't hold a candle to that.

If defense is your goal, i'd recommend cutting off at 4 levels of warpriest. Warder/BT either have better class features or progress warpriest ones anyway.

The fact of the matter is, I'd be playing a straight warder if I could. I started this character out as a Warpriest and have to make the best of the situation. I go Warpriest 6 because it seems a waste not to get the extra bonus feat from Favored Class bonus, and the character is a little feat-starved going into the Battle Templar PrC. More to the point I'd still need to do *something* with those 2 levels if I only went Warpriest 4, since this character will presumably go to lvl17.

[exelsisxax]

Going to be one of my disciplines from both Warpath, and Battle Templar, and it seemed to synergize well with what I'm doing. Primal Fury Style was originally a consideration but the Warder dip convinced me to change my mind.



TBF it was 3am when I posted that.



Which is why its listed as a bonus feat, on the same level I took a Warder dip.



Fair enough, though I'm still looking for suggestions on higher level feat slots.



The fact of the matter is, I'd be playing a straight warder if I could. I started this character out as a Warpriest and have to make the best of the situation. I go Warpriest 6 because it seems a waste not to get the extra bonus feat from Favored Class bonus, and the character is a little feat-starved going into the Battle Templar PrC. More to the point I'd still need to do *something* with those 2 levels if I only went Warpriest 4, since this character will presumably go to lvl17.

You don't only require a stance from the discipline, you are required to be IN a stance of that discipline or you lose all style feat benefits. This essentially requires you to be in a shattered mirror stance 100% of the time. I don't see how that's worth it.

zweihander sentinel/ordained defender double archetype warder for 3 levels. you get a shield bonus while using a 2H sword, WISDOM AS YOUR INITIATING MOD(and derived features like defensive focus AoO bonus), scarlet throne and (earlier) silver crane, and an extra blessing. If you're willing to give up some lackluster final BT features and much better spellcasting progression, you can also put more levels into warder for being the best at armor, reach on a greatsword, initiator mod to reflex and initiative, and using a counter an unlimited number of times for one turn. And remember, all of this on a chassis with more health, better BAB, and far better initiator progression.

If you do that, 'feat starved' isn't much of an issue, because feats at just gravy at that point.

[Adam500]

The style feat just specifies knowing a stance and weilding a discipline weapon.

The rest I'll think on.

[Adam500]

Zweihander sentinel/ordained defender double archetype warder for 3 levels. you get a shield bonus while using a 2H sword, WISDOM AS YOUR INITIATING MOD(and derived features like defensive focus AoO bonus), scarlet throne and (earlier) silver crane, and an extra blessing. If you're willing to give up some lackluster final BT features and much better spellcasting progression, you can also put more levels into warder for being the best at armor, reach on a greatsword, initiator mod to reflex and initiative, and using a counter an unlimited number of times for one turn. And remember, all of this on a chassis with more health, better BAB, and far better initiator progression.

If you do that, 'feat starved' isn't much of an issue, because feats at just gravy at that point.

I think you've convinced me on the Warpriest 4/Warder 3 entry to Battle Templar. I'm considering dropping Warpath follower altogether now so I retain Sacred Weapon (which should be progressed by Battle Templar? It is a divine ability).

I won't have Shattered Mirror anymore, but I think I can find an alternative (or pick up a stance with a feat, either way). I'll also definitely have to grab Additional Traits for the +2 CL trait and something else.

Warpriest 4/Warder 3/Templar 10 is serviceable enough, but if I decide to cut Templar off early does anyone have a recommendation for what to end with?