Critical hit + leap attack + power attack

[theboss]

Hello guys, haven't posted for a long time, but we're back and I've some questions.
1. Does power attack multiply on a critical hit?
2. I know there's a rule when you combine leap attack and power attack then you multiply your BAB by 4. Instead of 6. Does that true?
3. Can you please give me a quote and an exolaintion if power attack + leap attack + critical hit becomes BAB×8? Or less?


THanks in advance

[Buufreak]

Hello guys, haven't posted for a long time, but we're back and I've some questions.
1. Does power attack multiply on a critical hit?
2. I know there's a rule when you combine leap attack and power attack then you multiply your BAB by 4. Instead of 6. Does that true?
3. Can you please give me a quote and an exolaintion if power attack + leap attack + critical hit becomes BAB×8? Or less?


THanks in advance

1. Yes
2. Wrong all around. A 2handed weapon gets double the investment of PA. PA + LA makes it x3 instead. It explicitly states the words "instead" and "triple."
3. Wow, I get to explain this in full twice in the same sit down. DND, especially 3.5, doesn't use multiplication like it was taught in school. When something says "double" it actually means "an extra 100%," and triple means "an extra 200%," and so on. So if you crit with, lets say for funzies a scythe, while using leap attack, you would start with the x4 of the scythe (which is its crit value), then add "triple the power attack" for an extra 200% on power attack damage. So you x4 the weapon and strength damage, and get x6 on PA damage. Tossing in random numbers like 18 for Str and 8 BAB, you'll get 4x(2d4+4) +6x(8) on a full PA investment.

[Crake]

1. Yes
2. Wrong all around. A 2handed weapon gets double the investment of PA. PA + LA makes it x3 instead. It explicitly states the words "instead" and "triple."
3. Wow, I get to explain this in full twice in the same sit down. DND, especially 3.5, doesn't use multiplication like it was taught in school. When something says "double" it actually means "an extra 100%," and triple means "an extra 200%," and so on. So if you crit with, lets say for funzies a scythe, while using leap attack, you would start with the x4 of the scythe (which is its crit value), then add "triple the power attack" for an extra 200% on power attack damage. So you x4 the weapon and strength damage, and get x6 on PA damage. Tossing in random numbers like 18 for Str and 8 BAB, you'll get 4x(2d4+4) +6x(8) on a full PA investment.

I don't believe you've got point 3 correct. Crits and power attack are multiplying different numbers, so they apply separately. A critical hit multiplies all the damage you would normally do, while leap attack (and two handing) only affect the power attack. So it would be more correct to put it like this: 4*(2d4+6+3*8) (scythes are two handed weapons, so the str should be *1.5). The dnd multiplication stacking rules only apply when you're stacking the same thing multiple times. This is the same reason why a lance's damage on a charge, and crit damage on a charge don't stack multiplicatively, since they're both multiplying the entire damage unit, but since power attack's formula is already finished calculating, a critical hit's multiplication after the fact multiplies it again, with the "100%" value being the final result of the power attack calculation.

Otherwise, by that same logic, two handing with power attack already doubles the power attack damage, and the a x2 crit would only result in triple power attack damage, when instead the whole damage is doubled. What about two handing and the strength bonus? That's being multiplied by 1.5, does the 2x crit only increase that to 2.5* str? T

[Gruftzwerg]

Crake got it right.

You apply the 3.5 multiplication rules only if the multiplier is applied to the same "target" (e.g. weapon damage or PA or Str bonus are different targets).
And thus critical hits double your entire dmg including your PA multiplier (unless you already had something that doubled/multiplied your entire weapon dmg like spirited charge, diving attack with slashing/piercing weapon, valorous weapon..where you use the 3.5 multiplication rules again).

[theboss]

I'm currently Fighter 4/ Ranger 2/ Revenant Blade 5/ Exotic weapon master 2/ swordsage 1.
With a score of 26 STR. And total +21 to damage without power attack. How much damage would I do with full power attack + leap attack + critical and without critical?

[Darrin]

I'm currently Fighter 4/ Ranger 2/ Revenant Blade 5/ Exotic weapon master 2/ swordsage 1.
With a score of 26 STR. And total +21 to damage without power attack. How much damage would I do with full power attack + leap attack + critical and without critical?

Can you break down that +21 a bit? Are you using "Uncanny Blow" to get x2.0 Str bonus?

+12 (Str bonus x1.5)
+2 (Weapon Specialization)
+1 (Bladebearer of the Valenar)
+1 (Weapon enhancement bonus?)
+2 (Melee Weapon Mastery?)
+3 (???)

Weapon Damage (No Crit, PA + Leap Attack)
1d6 + 21 + 39 (13 BAB x 3) = 63.5 average damage

Weapon Damage (Crit, PA + Leap Attack)
2d6 + 42 + 52 (13 BAB x4) = 101 average damage

Someone check my math...

A few caveats:

It's not clear how D&D multiplication handles the x1.5 or x0.5 Str bonus. Either the Str modifier is calculated as a "fixed modifier" and you just multiply it normally, or you would have to use the wacky "additive multiplier" thingy and do something like "x1.5 + x2.0 = x2.5". I am assuming the Str bonus is a fixed modifier for simplicity.

Complete Adventurer issued some errata to attempt to explain Leap Attack but they made it even more confusing (it was actually easier to understand before they issued the errata). They also screwed up the errata, which only applies to the second sentence, and left the third sentence intact. Since you're using a two-handed weapon, you ignore the "+100%" nonsense and treat the PA multiplier as "x3" as per the third sentence.

You're not using Spirited Charge or a Valorous weapon (Champions of Valor), which would add additional multipliers.

[Necroticplague]

2. Wrong all around. A 2handed weapon gets double the investment of PA. PA + LA makes it x3 instead. It explicitly states the words "instead" and "triple."

I don't think this is quiet right. Power Attack has a 2:1 ratio with a 2h weapon, but this isn't a multiplier, it's just a different base.

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. Not that it's 'instead....' as oppossed to 'double the damage....'.

So, with Leap Attack and a 2-handed weapon, the instructions are to 'triple the damage'. With 'the damage' implicitly referring to 'the extra amount of damage done by your power attack'. So, you take your PA damage, which is actually a fixed number once you've sucked up the penalty, and just triple that. It's not technically multiple multipliers, it's just one (Leap Attack's tripling).

[Darrin]

I don't think this is quiet right. Power Attack has a 2:1 ratio with a 2h weapon, but this isn't a multiplier, it's just a different base.


In the interests of pedantry, "add twice the number" is another way of saying "multiply by two". Some people treat that as an x2 multiplier.

By your reading, then I think the output of PA + Leap Attack would be x6. You take penalty "P" as an attack penalty, add P + P = 2P (damage bonus) and then multiply that value by x3, so damage bonus would be 6P on a non-crit and 8P on a crit. Am I understanding you correctly?

[Necroticplague]

In the interests of pedantry, "add twice the number" is another way of saying "multiply by two". Some people treat that as an x2 multiplier. Except that doesn't make any logical sense. You aren't multiplying anything when you Power Attack. The penalty stays it's same size, a damage bonus is just created that relates to that penalty.


By your reading, then I think the output of PA + Leap Attack would be x6. You take penalty "P" as an attack penalty, add P + P = 2P (damage bonus) and then multiply that value by x3, so damage bonus would be 6P on a non-crit and 8P on a crit. Am I understanding you correctly?

x12 on a crit. Leap Attack only multiplies the damage from Power Attack (Tripling it), while a critical hit multiplies all damage. Since they aren't multiplying the same thing, they don't need the DnD multiplication-stacking. Other than that, you are reading me correctly. Leap attack is excellent for Frenzied Berzerkers (since that makes the base ratio 4:1).

[theboss]

Can you break down that +21 a bit? Are you using "Uncanny Blow" to get x2.0 Str bonus?

+12 (Str bonus x1.5)
+2 (Weapon Specialization)
+1 (Bladebearer of the Valenar)
+1 (Weapon enhancement bonus?)
+2 (Melee Weapon Mastery?)
+3 (???)



Yes, Using Uncany blow to get 2 times strength.
So:
+16 str bonus.
+2 WS (bonus feat from revanant blade class)
+1 Bladebearer of the Valenar
+1 (Weapon enhancement bonus)
+2 melee weapon mastery .
Then +22 actully. ty.
Using +1 Brilliant energy cold iron double valenar scimiter.



Weapon Damage (No Crit, PA + Leap Attack)
1d6 + 21 + 39 (13 BAB x 3) = 63.5 average damage

Weapon Damage (Crit, PA + Leap Attack)
2d6 + 42 + 52 (13 BAB x4) = 101 average damage

Someone check my math...



So with two weapon pounce im doing double damage mentioned above?
btw, someone above commented that triple damage means an extra 200% because of level 5th ability im using double weapon as a two handed weapon for the purpose of determing str damage and PA damage rolls. which means im doing BAB * 2 on normal attack and an extra +200% from leap attack (which says you triple the damage) it becomes BAB *4, therfore on normal PA + LA =
[2d6 (I'm large) + 21 + 52(13 * 4) ] *2 ( two weapon pounce) = 160.

On 1 (out of 2) critical hit it would be :
2d6 + 21 + 52 + 4d6 + 42 +104 = 240.
On 2 critcal hits it would be :

[ 4d6 + 42 + 104 ] *2 = 320.

Am I correct?



You're not using Spirited Charge or a Valorous weapon (Champions of Valor), which would add additional multipliers.

Spirited charge required 2 useless feats, so I'm using two weapon pounce. Since Pounce and valorous weapon is banned at our table.

[Reaperess]

This may be the wrong place for me to ask this, but please forgive me if it is. I had a question that was very similar to this one.

I'm playing a Halfling Cavalier (14 str) and I just got spirited charge (crits haven't come up for me yet, rotten luck on that front), and normal damage from my lance is 1d6+3 when wielded in two hands, and 1d6+6 with Power Attack. Right now I'm just power attacking everything because why not. When charging my damage jumps up to 3d6+18 (Spirited charge, Lance). Now my question comes in when I crit. I seem to recall that double-doubling is really x3. And this line of thinking should be applied to triple tripling. (x3 damage on charge+ x3 crit = x5 damage, not x6. So I should be dealing 5d6+30, not 3d6+18 three times or 6d6+36. Am I correct, or am I losing my mind?

So I guess my question is this: is it (3d6+18)x3, or is it (1d6+6)x5, or (1d6+6)x6

[Crake]

My favourite ubercharger build was a petal paladin riding a faerie dragon with smiteful charge, a lance, spirited charge, and all the power attack goodies.

[Darrin]

Except that doesn't make any logical sense. You aren't multiplying anything when you Power Attack. The penalty stays it's same size, a damage bonus is just created that relates to that penalty.


"Twice the number" is multiplication. It very much so makes logical sense.

Premise A: P + P = 2P.

Premise B: P x 2 = 2P.

Premise A = Premise B.



x12 on a crit.


How do you get this? Can you show me the math?



Leap Attack only multiplies the damage from Power Attack (Tripling it), while a critical hit multiplies all damage. Since they aren't multiplying the same thing, they don't need the DnD multiplication-stacking.


They quite obviously are multiplying the same thing: damage. Why wouldn't the D&D multiplication rules apply here? (Other than the obvious klunkiness of multiplying a portion of the damage by x2 and another portion by x3 or x4?). I don't see anything in the rules that says, "If this portion of the damage is calculated differently, don't use additive multiplication here."

Or rather:

Crit Damage = (A + B + C) x 2 = 2A + 2B + 2C.

If B also includes another multiplier (in this case, Leap Attack's x3), how is this not two multipliers being applied to the same value?

I don't see anywhere in the rules that says (A + B + C) is treated as a discrete value where B alone should not be treated in the same way.


Am I correct?

I honestly can't tell. There are some fundamentally ambiguous assumptions that have to be made in how D&D parses different types of variables in the damage calculation. I can see multiple interpretations that are all "valid" by the rules. Different groups are going to have different assumptions.


Now my question comes in when I crit. I seem to recall that double-doubling is really x3. And this line of thinking should be applied to triple tripling. (x3 damage on charge+ x3 crit = x5 damage, not x6. So I should be dealing 5d6+30, not 3d6+18 three times or 6d6+36. Am I correct, or am I losing my mind?


This doesn't involve Power Attack or Leap Attack, so yes, additive multipliers apply here. x3 + x3 = x5. (1d6+6)x5 = 5d6+30.

[Necroticplague]

How do you get this? Can you show me the math?
Two-handed PA: Twice Penalty.
Leap Attack: Multiply Damage Bonus from PA by three, to Sextuple Penalty
Critical Hit: Double All Damage, to Dodecahedruple Penalty plus Twice Damage Roll plus Twice Misc Damage Mods.


They quite obviously are multiplying the same thing: damage. Why wouldn't the D&D multiplication rules apply here? (Other than the obvious klunkiness of multiplying a portion of the damage by x2 and another portion by x3 or x4?). I don't see anything in the rules that says, "If this portion of the damage is calculated differently, don't use additive multiplication here."
Except that Power Attack isn't damage. It's a bonus to damage. It doesn't become damage until you've already added it (along with any other modifiers) to your damage roll. And at that point,if you've crit, you're no longer multiplying the modifier, you're multiplying the overall damage.


Or rather:

Crit Damage = (A + B + C) x 2 = 2A + 2B + 2C.

While the two end in that sentence end up producing the same number, they aren't the same thing. (A+B+C), together, is damage, what's being multiplied. None of the individual parts of damage are being multiplied on their own.

[QUOTE=Darrin;22277325]If B also includes another multiplier (in this case, Leap Attack's x3), how is this not two multipliers being applied to the same value? Because B does not include a multiplier. It was found using one, but it does not itself have one. You select a penalty, this generates a bonus to damage. This value is tripled to become a third, different bonus to damage. This bonus is part of what's multiplied, not the original.


I don't see anywhere in the rules that says (A + B + C) is treated as a discrete value where B alone should not be treated in the same way.

Likewise, I don't see anywhere in the rules that say (A+B+C) (damage) together is the same as A (damage roll)+B (Modifier from Power Attack)+C (misc bonuses to damage) separately.

[Darrin]

Except that Power Attack isn't damage. It's a bonus to damage. It doesn't become damage until you've already added it (along with any other modifiers) to your damage roll.


I don't see any support in the text that suggests a damage modifier is not considered "damage" until it's added to the damage roll. D&D may have changed the rules for adding multipliers, but the distributive property of multiplication has not been changed. If you're adding a value to another value, and you multiply the result, you can still multiply each value individually and get the same answer.



Because B does not include a multiplier. It was found using one, but it does not itself have one.


This is not supported by the text. If I determine a value via multiplication, and I then later multiply that value again, the first multiplication does not "disappear".



Likewise, I don't see anywhere in the rules that say (A+B+C) (damage) together is the same as A (damage roll)+B (Modifier from Power Attack)+C (misc bonuses to damage) separately.

Multiplication is a distributive property (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_property). The PHB changes how different multipliers add together, but they did not rescind the distributive property from damage calculation.