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View Full Version : New player, newer DM, need opinions



Shugercube
2017-08-07, 11:56 AM
I've only just started playing rpgs (d&d 3.5, Star Wars, and l5r) about 2 months ago, so I don't have tons of experience as a player. I am trying my hand at DMing, and I had an idea that I'm not sure is a good or bad one.
I am thinking for the first mission it will be a typical "rescue" mission where someone's daughter needs to be rescued, along with a side mission to retrieve a special item from the same area, but when the party finally gets to her, she has managed to defeat (or at least subdue) the bbeg herself. This has probably been done a lot, but I am wondering if this is a good twist or if it would just upset the players? They would still have to fight their way in to get to her, and there will be some more fighting on the way out as well, and of course retrieving the item which will involve some puzzles to find, so it wouldn't be a "wasted" mission... but I don't want them to be disappointed or anything, more like surprised and maybe impressed with her. I was thinking of having her become a more important NPC that potentially joins their party for a little bit before she gets killed off (or at least she's going to ask to join them, whether they allow her to or not is up to them). Thoughts? Experience?

Haldir
2017-08-07, 12:13 PM
I've only just started playing rpgs (d&d 3.5, Star Wars, and l5r) about 2 months ago, so I don't have tons of experience as a player. I am trying my hand at DMing, and I had an idea that I'm not sure is a good or bad one.
I am thinking for the first mission it will be a typical "rescue" mission where someone's daughter needs to be rescued, along with a side mission to retrieve a special item from the same area, but when the party finally gets to her, she has managed to defeat (or at least subdue) the bbeg herself. This has probably been done a lot, but I am wondering if this is a good twist or if it would just piss off the players? They would still have to fight their way in to get to her, and there will be some more fighting on the way out as well, and of course retrieving the item which will involve some puzzles to find, so it wouldn't be a "wasted" mission... but I don't want them to be disappointed or anything, more like surprised and maybe impressed with her. I was thinking of having her become a more important NPC that potentially joins their party for a little bit before she gets killed off (or at least she's going to ask to join them, whether they allow her to or not is up to them). Thoughts? Experience?

You can mitigate the ill-feelings if you allow the heroes to arrive in time to help your NPC defeat the villian. If you want them to be impressed with her, allow the PC's to "give her some room" and have her do something cool, but not encounter-ending.

Also, in my experience players tend to gravitate more toward aloof people who don't want to join them. If she only works with them because she needs them and then buggers off, well, she's a lot cooler than someone slavishly following them around.

Inb4- "Don't make her a DMPC."

Shugercube
2017-08-07, 12:28 PM
You can mitigate the ill-feelings if you allow the heroes to arrive in time to help your NPC defeat the villian. If you want them to be impressed with her, allow the PC's to "give her some room" and have her do something cool, but not encounter-ending.

Thank you. I will think about this some more. I just got the idea that it might be interesting for them to think they are rescuing a typical "damsel in distress" only to find that she is more of a warrior princess. LOL. But I definitely don't want it to be a turn off for anyone! Maybe they will arrive to find bbeg bound up and she is trying to obtain information or something... I'll come up with something. Or maybe just scrap the idea altogether!


Also, in my experience players tend to gravitate more toward aloof people who don't want to join them. If she only works with them because she needs them and then buggers off, well, she's a lot cooler than someone slavishly following them around.

Inb4- "Don't make her a DMPC."

Yes, thank you for that! I do NOT want to fall into the DMPC trap. I just want to give them someone extra to go with, as they are all inexperienced players with level 1 characters, so I wanted to just provide a little extra support just until they level up a bit, fill in their weak spots a little. Maybe even cause them to seek vengeance for the NPC's death down the road. But I know I have to be careful not to let the NPC be too involved.

Haldir
2017-08-07, 12:53 PM
Yes, thank you for that! I do NOT want to fall into the DMPC trap. I just want to give them someone extra to go with, as they are all inexperienced players with level 1 characters, so I wanted to just provide a little extra support just until they level up a bit, fill in their weak spots a little. Maybe even cause them to seek vengeance for the NPC's death down the road. But I know I have to be careful not to let the NPC be too involved.

My favorite method for endearing NPCs to my players actually came from one of my players. A GOBLIN (gasp) in a Dwarven City just walking around and offering people Goodberries. "Ooh, goodberries!" became rote for me as the DM. I bring it up as an example for little things you can do to make your NPC's more of a asset to the players enjoyment. Make sure she has a unique story, goals, and most important- human thoughts and desires.

good luck friend!

daniel_ream
2017-08-07, 06:27 PM
"The damsel who doesn't need rescuing" is no longer a subversion, it's now just a tired cliche. You'll have to judge your players' tolerance for tired cliches; certainly D&D generally relies on them, but people's tolerances vary widely. I've seen more than one group flat out ask King Questgiver "Why do you need us to do this? Don't you have knights for this kind of thing? Is this a trick?"

I think more important is that it's anticlimactic. Most D&D groups have become acclimated to the "escalating challenge fights, boss monster at the end" model. If you take away the boss monster, you're denying a climax to the adventure and the attendant emotional catharsis.


but I don't want them to be disappointed or anything, more like surprised and maybe impressed with her.

Stop that right the **** now. As soon as you start wanting your players to be impressed with your NPCs awesomeness, you're in DMPC territory. Don't do that.


I wanted to just provide a little extra support just until they level up a bit

Make her a support type limited to heals and buffs. It'll backstop the PCs survivability without taking away the spotlight. If having a female character as the support type bothers you, make the damsel an teenage boy apprentice to the local apothecary. He's too young to lift a sword or a bow, but he knows his way around a poultice or two.

Pugwampy
2017-08-08, 06:13 AM
am thinking for the first mission it will be a typical "rescue" mission where someone's daughter needs to be rescued, along with a side mission to retrieve a special item from the same area, but when the party finally gets to her, she has managed to defeat (or at least subdue) the bbeg herself.

Its a nice twist . Could be the other way around . the players find her corpse in a cooking pot . Players wont be upset as long as there is lots of fights. might be cliche but i never done it or experienced it before in my games .


and of course retrieving the item which will involve some puzzles

Be very very Careful with puzzles . Remember you know the answer and they dont . Whom ever solves that puzzle make sure he gets xp . My group wanted nothing to do with puzzles and for good reason . Thats a time waster and this game wastes enough time . If you make use of a mod and it has a puzzle by all means do that .



I was thinking of having her become a more important NPC that potentially joins their party for a little bit before she gets killed off (or at least she's going to ask to join them, whether they allow her to or not is up to them). Thoughts? Experience?

Its great having NPC , whom they had to rescue in session 1 hang around forever . She can give em quests to do. Players can get attached and become upset if she is killed . Then you also get the iffy part of RP situations where some players want to have rp sex with princess and get upset if she rejects them that might lead them to burning down the town or some such .
This has happened to me more than once as DM. Be careful with supermodel charismatic NPC fairy / nymph queens. Fat grumpy half orc grannies can be cool and avoid that situation.


or at least she's going to ask to join them, whether they allow her to or not is up to them)

My fave DM loved doing this . He gives us a god like NPC , an impossible encounter and enjoys using his level 9 cleric on 100 level 2 barbarians while the rest of us level 1 folk are hiding . Its not much fun .

Is princess going to be an active member . will she be useless or OP ? As DM i have enough on my plate , so i dont want to play with myself . If a temporary npc joins up assuming this person is equal powered , In combat I give the NPC stat sheet to a volunteer player who will dictate both his hero and that NPC , although I will still RP outside of combat . Players still feel in control doing that.

There is also the trouble of loot division . If princess is active member contributing in the encounter she deserves a share of loot which sucks for players. Its kind of better to have players "paid" upfront to escort princess useless to so and so local .

One nice thing about NPC,s you dont have to follow DND laws . For example , insta healing player option or insta incinerate monster option . For example you can escort an aloof sorceress , she does nothing but read books most of the time , If players are overwhlemed they beg for help , she twists her wrist and 1 monster out of 5 disappears or some such .
Another cool way to use an NPC is to say.... have a castle combat defence thing . SO and so NPC sits next to say a pot of healing potion and damaged players can run to her for a swig of the coffee and heal up and back to the walls . Players dont feel useless and NPC is passive but useful.
Or even out of combat auto diplomacy skill . What i am trying to say its perk having so and so around yet players still have their fun . Its nice having NPC,s you interact with daily join you on the odd encounter . If those NPC,s are doing stuff outside the rules it makes life interesting .

NPC reserves are also useful if you have player short .DM either dumbs down an encounter which sucks for DM or he gives players an NPC and keep his well laid plans intact.
Or you are doing something that needs an certain number of folk .

Blymurkla
2017-08-08, 06:48 AM
I am thinking for the first mission it will be a typical "rescue" mission where someone's daughter needs to be rescued, along with a side mission to retrieve a special item from the same area, but when the party finally gets to her, she has managed to defeat (or at least subdue) the bbeg herself. This has probably been done a lot, but I am wondering if this is a good twist or if it would just upset the players? Twist properly, instead of ending on an anti-climax.

There's nothing wrong with your kidnapped NPC fending for herself, but defeating the BBEG and then waltzing home while the protagonists wonder what they should do? Nah, that's not how a story goes.

Have the NPC fight her way free, defeating a named lieutenant of the boss on her own, and meet up with the PCs just as there about to break down the door to the holding block. Shock! Then have her explain that the real villain is at large, still holding others imprisoned, and she wants the PCs to help her take down this villain. That way, you get to show off your shiny NPC (just make sure she doesn't shine brighter than the PCs, and you'll be okay) and still get to give your players the rewarding boss fight.

goto124
2017-08-08, 07:32 AM
I just got the idea that it might be interesting for them to think they are rescuing a typical "damsel in distress" only to find that she is more of a warrior princess.

A better idea for a PC than for an NPC. Something like that is rather attention-grabbing, a characteristic that's fairly typical of PCs but very much annoying of an NPC. An NPC who starts off appearing to need help from the PCs, only to turn around and say "Nah, lemme take over and do the stuff you wanted to do", will only get hated by the players. You stripped them of the reward and satisfication they wanted and fought so hard for. All because you got attached to your own NPC, and decided to make her look 'cool'. Nope.

Your method of trying to make an NPC likeable already goes into almighty DMPC territory. Why does this NPC exist? You mentioned nothing of the players having issue keeping up with the campaign, so it's not to help out the players with heals or utility skills. And you mentioned nothing of her role in the story. You want her to defeat the BBEG, or to do half of the boss battle the players were supposed to fight, or to tie up and interrogate the BBEG. What purpose does this NPC serve? To look cool and powerful and thus let you feel cool and powerful?

You yourself mentioned the possibility of "scrap the idea altogether". Since you are a really new DM who has yet to even spend much time playing, I back up that possibility. It'll be the least troublesome, and the reasoning behind what you're trying to do will go against what you want to achieve anyway.



However, in case you want to go ahead with the NPC anyway, I do have advice on that as well.

Helpful NPCs who follow the party around are on the weaker side, and often restrict themselves to heals, buffs, and debuffs. It avoids overshadowing the PCs. You decided to created a long-term helpful NPC who does not overshadow the PCs, which is most easily achieved with a support-focused character, and the NPC will be like this regardless of gender. As mentioned by daniel_ream, this NPC could easily be a boy. But do not feel embarassed or such to let the NPC be female.

Your NPC does not and probably should not be powerful or badass, that's for the PCs. She can be some form of likeable and useful to the party as a long-term helpful NPC. As mentioned before, her skillset would likely surround heals, buffs, debuffs, and other defensive skills.

As for how to introduce your NPC? It's not a choice between "in chains as a hostage" and "already killed the bad guy". She could be in the middle of defending herself against the bad guy, which is reasonable since she's defense-focused and he's powerful enough for a entire group of strong people (the party of PCs). She's surviving and doing something useful, but she can't finish the job without the PCs' help. Which is good, because the PCs should be the ones doing the most contribution, not an NPC.

daniel_ream
2017-08-08, 08:27 AM
She could be in the middle of defending herself against the bad guy, which is reasonable since she's defense-focused and he's powerful enough for a entire group of strong people (the party of PCs).

Perhaps she could be in some kind of stalemate position, where she can hold off the BBEG indefinitely thanks to terrain or something, but can't defeat him on her own; she needs the PCs to upset the equilibrium.

Footman
2017-08-08, 08:55 AM
If the Princess just defeats the BBEG alone, when the PCs arrive that is boring and irritating for the Players, i have an Idea for a Plot Twist.
Just before the PC get to wherever the Villian lives, they get approched by a Knight, who's Face is obscured by a Full-Helmet. The Knight seeing as Party seems rather Combat ready, asks them if they are Mercenarys, and if he could hire them to go and kill the BBEG with them. What coincidence the PCs, think, but they won't refuse Help, and Pay for a Task they were already doing anyway.

The Knight NPC is something like a very Defensiv build Fighter, so the Knight can easily soak lots and Help the Party and dish out a Bit, but without taking Spotlight, while the PCs are the great Heroes. Then, atfer the BBEG is dead, the PCs start looking for the Princess, this is the moment when the Knight takes her Helmet of and reveales that the Princess is her. She managed to escape the BBEG and stole some Gold, Weapons and armor from him. She felt it was her responsibilty to Stop the BBEG, and thenkfully the PCs, were there.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-08-08, 08:58 AM
I think the original proposal is fine, as long as the big bad wasn't some villain they're bee chasing for two years now and really, really wanted to fight themselves and as long as the players get a substitute challenge. When Michael Bay tells me at the beginning of The Rock "Airplanes are going to blow up this island or else the terrorists will blow up the city", he promises me a big explosion. The movie thus needs to end on said explosion. There's no way around it, the good guys can't prevent everything from blowing up because I the audience will feel cheated. It's the same for games. They've been gearing up to fight this guy, they're ready, you promised them a big fight. How you get them that fight is up to you. Maybe the guy was secretly working on an army of evil clones, who come out and attack. Maybe he was working for an evil dragon, who shows up to check on progress. Maybe with his dying breath he presses a self destruct button leaving the players to fight their way through all remaining minions on a time limit while the roof is falling on their heads. That last one is not really a big fight maybe, but at least it's also an exciting thing. The one thing I would watch out for is the daughter not being too overcompetent compared to the party. If she beat the big bad on her own surely she has some tricks she can use against the dragon right? She probably does like half of all damage? Nope, big nono. This is a scene the players are playing, and the players have to be important. She falls in line as just another party member. Otherwise you're just playing with yourself, and nobody comes to your house to see that. :smallamused:

Shugercube
2017-08-08, 11:40 AM
Thank you all for the input!! I got some great feedback, too much to quote everything, but some really great ideas and cautions here. Thanks so much! I decided to scrap the idea for now, and in this case just made the npc a regular girl needing rescuing. I may revisit something later, but we'll see how things go. I think I need to get to know my players and how they play (which they don't really even know yet, as they are learning too) more before doing anything like that. Being my first time DMing, along with being the first mission with this group of all new players (except for one experienced player), and the beginning of a brand new campaign, I wasn't sure what to expect. I wasn't sure if the dungeon would be too hard (I've read conflicting guidelines for CR), or too easy, or how the party would react to anything. I ran it last night, and they all seemed to enjoy it, even the more experienced player, so I am feeling like it went well. I got good feedback and some suggestions for next time, and realized things that I hadn't really thought of until someone decided to do it (for example, deciding to smash a mirror in the hall... It honestly had never occurred to me to be prepared with the hardness and hp of a random mirror, as I wasn't expecting anyone to want to smash it. Lesson learned. LOL) Thanks again!

goto124
2017-08-08, 01:04 PM
and realized things that I hadn't really thought of until someone decided to do it (for example, deciding to smash a mirror in the hall... It honestly had never occurred to me to be prepared with the hardness and hp of a random mirror, as I wasn't expecting anyone to want to smash it. Lesson learned. LOL) Thanks again!

First rule of DMing: No plan survives contact with the PCs. Running a tabletop game is very much about responding to your players.

I'm glad you came to a satisfactory conclusion based on the advice we gave here. May you continue to learn throughout your DMing!

Herobizkit
2017-08-10, 08:49 AM
One fine twist is that the girl decides that life with the BBEG is better than living at 'home', so she doesn't want to be rescued.

As to WHY it's better than home... that could be the double-twist. ^_^