A variant Human Monk build question

[KorvinStarmast]

Using point buy as the basis, I am puzzling through a Human variant Monk.
This monk will either be Open Hand or Shadow (depends on whether or not a rogue is chosen in the party expecting 4 or 5 ... it's still gelling at the moment).
(No multi class, I don't think this game will last past 9, if it gets that far. I was tempted to get resilient, since the 14th level benefit on saves won't play into this ... but I decided to tailor this more to the sneaking/alert/curious person, or theme).

Here's my first idea:
S 8_______8
D 15______16...(+1 VH)
C 13______14...(+1 VH)
I 10______10...
W 15______16 ...(+1 Observant)
Ch 10______10 ...
Feat: Observant

But I am thinking about switching the Int and Str scored to look like this:
S 10_______10
D 15_______16
C 13_______14
I 8_________8
W 15_______16
Ch 10_______10
Feat: Observant

If I go Shadow, I probably need to do the former idea, since I'll be scouting and doing more rogue stuff; tool proficiency for sure will be thieves tools. Most likely an Urchin background, but maybe Criminal who "got saved from the streets by getting placed in that monastery by a mysterious stranger/benefactor ... " DM and I still working on back story.

For those of you who have played a VHuman monk, do you recommend at 4th level ASI to pump Wisdom (gives Ki one more bump on DC) or Dex (Better To hit and Damage).

Who else is playing?
At least one full caster, a barbarian, and I think a Fighter / EK. (The rogue is an open question ... if even able to play)

Arguments for why or why not to dump Charisma instead of the other two are welcome.

The ASI at 8 will be either Wis or Dex, which didn't get pumped first.

[Easy_Lee]

People usually pump Dexterity first since it controls more than wisdom does (damage + hit + initiative + AC + Acrobatic vs Stun + AC + Perception). I've seen homebrew add wisdom mod to Ki pool specifically to address this, but it sounds like you won't be playing that homebrew.

Observant is a solid feat on a variant human. A lot of people take mobile on monks, but I don't think it's worth delaying your progression in this case. Be more creative about your movement in combat and you can avoid the need for mobile.

[KorvinStarmast]

People usually pump Dexterity first since it controls more than wisdom does (damage + hit + initiative + AC + Acrobatic vs Stun + AC + Perception). I've seen homebrew add wisdom mod to Ki pool specifically to address this, but it sounds like you won't be playing that homebrew. OK, I'll ponder that, thanks for the tip.

[Specter]

I don't like to dump STR on monks because I don't like the idea of a martial artist being weaker than a commoner. Unless he's the 'old monk'.

I'd dump either INT or CHA by answering the question: do I want to be dumb or edgy?

[Easy_Lee]

I don't like to dump STR on monks because I don't like the idea of a martial artist being weaker than a commoner. Unless he's the 'old monk'.

I'd dump either INT or CHA by answering the question: do I want to be dumb or edgy?

Why wouldn't you want to play the old monk, though? That's basically the only kind-of monk that won't piss off your average grognard.

In all seriousness, dexterity and strength are just different terms for physical capability. Think of it as the difference between a gymnast and a power lifter.

[Specter]

Why wouldn't you want to play the old monk, though? That's basically the only kind-of monk that won't piss off your average grognard.

In all seriousness, dexterity and strength are just different terms for physical capability. Think of it as the difference between a gymnast and a power lifter.

I didn't say I wouldn't play an old monk, it just might not be op's concept.

And gymnasts do need strenght. Not 20, muscle-shredding strenght, but absolutely not 8.

[Easy_Lee]

I didn't say I wouldn't play an old monk, it just might not be op's concept.

And gymnasts do need strenght. Not 20, muscle-shredding strenght, but absolutely not 8.

Gymnasts require a very high muscle-to-weight ratio and an exceptionally low body fat. They want to be strong and coordinate relative to their weight. Strong men don't care about their weight or body fat percentage as long as they're strong. Some of them can't do one pull-up.

But D&D doesn't get that deep with its mechanics. Dexterity represents tone and coordination, while strength represents raw power. In that way, you actually could imagine a 20 dexterity, 8 strength gymnast. That character would look something like a ballerina.

[djreynolds]

I see no purpose in observant, sorry. Your wisdom score and proficiency is really enough... looks like around a +5 at 1st level and +15 with passive. Do you need a 20 passive perception that early?

You get more from 1 level of rogue, like expertise in stealth and perception , or 2 for cunning action.

Mobile is great versus 1 opponent but not versus a group... here your disengage is better.

Uncanny dodge uses a BA but no ki point like patient defense.

Also you are without darkvision, so being the main scout can be tough with a torch.

I might grab for a single classed monk, magic initiate warlock and get hex. It lasts 1 hour a day. And get 2 cool cantrips.

But I prefer to multiclass my monks. I have found level 7 is an awesome perk. Level 14 is a ways away.

Good luck

[PhantomSoul]

Uncanny dodge uses a BA but no ki point like patient defense.

Quick clarification and correction to this one: Uncanny Dodge uses a Reaction (not a Bonus Action), and doesn't have the same effect as Dodge (from Patient Defense); Uncanny Dodge halves the damage taken from a single attack done by an opponent you can see, whereas Dodge (which Patient Defense lets you do as a Bonus Action) gives Disadvantage to all Attack Rolls against you and Advantage to Dexterity Saving Throws made by you until the start of your next turn (barring Incapacitation or having your Speed reduced to 0).

[djreynolds]

Quick clarification and correction to this one: Uncanny Dodge uses a Reaction (not a Bonus Action), and doesn't have the same effect as Dodge (from Patient Defense); Uncanny Dodge halves the damage taken from a single attack done by an opponent you can see, whereas Dodge (which Patient Defense lets you do as a Bonus Action) gives Disadvantage to all Attack Rolls against you and Advantage to Dexterity Saving Throws made by you until the start of your next turn (barring Incapacitation or having your Speed reduced to 0).

Nice catch, PhantomSoul. Sorry, so many threads.

Cunning action, is the best for a monk. It saved on my ki point usage, allowing me to nova when needed.

It's 2 levels, multiclass with rogue for 1-3 levels.

[PhantomSoul]

Nice catch, PhantomSoul. Sorry, so many threads.

Cunning action, is the best for a monk. It saved on my ki point usage, allowing me to nova when needed.

It's 2 levels, multiclass with rogue for 1-3 levels.

Thanks & no problem! I know our Rogue keeps confusing them (in a current campaign we're now at level 4 and our Rogue often comments on how she'll be able to 'do it too soon' when I Patient Defense), which is quite easy to do given the names! Uncanny Dodge actually complements Patient Defense fairly well in a pinch (you Patient Defense so that few hits get through, and if a big one does then you can use Uncanny Dodge to survive the blow).

You're right though; Cunning Action really is awesome with Ki being such a precious resource at times. Either way, Rogue is a really nice multiclass for Monks (with Shadow Monks being an obvious pick for the combo, but Open Hand still giving some added versatility).

[KorvinStarmast]

Why wouldn't you want to play the old monk, though? That's basically the only kind-of monk that won't piss off your average grognard. Given that the OP is of grognard vintage, that might have not been the best way to contribute to this recommendation thread. :smallbiggrin: My problem is that if we have no rogue, I don't want to dump Cha. No bard.

I see no purpose in observant, sorry. Your wisdom score and proficiency is really enough... looks like around a +5 at 1st level and +15 with passive. Do you need a 20 passive perception that early? Yes. The whole premise of my role is that there is no rogue, so I am all about sneak and scout. I don't want to be surprised while I am out scouting about. (Yeah, we 1e thieves fell in to a few traps and ambushes, maybe I am scarred for life. :p)
The add to investigation might overcome some of my Int problems except for one small hitch: it's passive investigation, rather than active, that get's the +5. (Seems kind of odd to me, that my passive investigation would be higher than my active ? But that 's how I read it_)

You get more from 1 level of rogue, like expertise in stealth and perception , or 2 for cunning action.
Really, really not into multi class here. I am trying to adapt a monk to semi rogue type role using monk.


Also you are without darkvision, so being the main scout can be tough with a torch.
Hence the need for a boost in passive perception: hear things, we can. :smallwink: And smell things. (Also, a bit later in the shadow monk progression, one can spend ki to put on darkvision. )


I might grab for a single classed monk, magic initiate Warlock and get hex. It lasts 1 hour a day. And get 2 cool cantrips. Hmm, that's a neat idea. I'll study on that one.


But I prefer to multiclass my monks. I have found level 7 is an awesome perk. Level 14 is a ways away. As I predict that we won't get to level 14, knowing our group, that neato save thing is beyond this build, which is why I did consider resilent Con as a possible feat ... since we won't ever get me those neat save boosts.

I don't like to dump STR on monks because I don't like the idea of a martial artist being weaker than a commoner. Unless he's the 'old monk'. I'd dump either INT or CHA by answering the question: do I want to be dumb or edgy? Since I can get out of grapples with Dex, and since I get proficiency in Str saves, and since I can mitigate a few of my strength problems with Athletics, I may go with 8 str. While Int dump is trite, it may still be the better idea particularly with the Urchin background.

Uncanny Dodge versus Dodge Nice post, thanks for the clarification.

[KorvinStarmast]

Warlock/magic initiate Hmm, am I able to cast guidance on myself? I might want to get druid or cleric, being wisdom based casters, though your point on Hex is pretty solid. IIRC, my spell attack for Eldritch blast would get no boost, so the two cantrips would need to be utility.

[djreynolds]

Thorn whip is nice, there is no save.
Sacred flame is nice

Also a caster can throw darkvision on you.

Have fun

[KorvinStarmast]

Thorn whip is nice, there is no save.
Sacred flame is nice
If I try Druid Mag Initiate, I can cast Guidance on myself.

Guidance cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends. Hmm, it costs me a point con or wis or dex. Hmmm. I'll need to rescrub the numbers. Boosting ability checks will be a big deal at lower levels, and as I see it we don't get to real high Proficiency scores. Hmmm. Might be the better idea.
Thorn Whip. Hmm, yeah, not a bad choice at all. Might be able to help the martial(s) a bit

Also a caster can throw darkvision on you. Yeah, we'd need to work out a deal on that.