The Hybrid Nuke tactic - How to one-shot almost everything with 4 Wizards

[Renduaz]

Requirements

1. Four Wizards of at least level 15, or 20 for maximum effect.
2. Delayed Blast Fireball/Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Simulacrum ( Optional ), Time Stop ( Optional ), Maze

Steps

1. The first Wizard in order, regardless of which stage in combat you're at, provided you haven't expended high-level spell slots yet, should Maze the target and maintain concentration. No saving throw ( **** you legendary resistance ), so it's gone until at least it's next turn ( When it can use an action ). For that reason it's preferable to do this at the very first round of combat for better outcomes.

2. Second Wizard uses Time Stop, Casts Delayed Blast Fireball at the 8th level in the creature's previous location ( or an inch near it ), then casts Otiluke's Freezing Sphere at the 7th/6th ( Nice try Limited Magic Immunity, take this ) levels as many times as he has turns, and places them down in the same area as well.

3. The third Wizard does the same.

4. The fourth Wizard does the same.

5. If the target had not yet succeeded it's saving throw, the first Wizard add his own Freezing spheres, and meanwhile the damage of the fireballs increases every turn.

Bonus

If you want to go really overboard with this, each of the Wizard's Simulacrums could also cast Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball + Freezing Spheres as well, while the party may be composed of Divination Wizards to force the target to fail as many saving throws as possible for half damage as soon as it appears.


Results

I'll leave it to you to calculate what's the average damage from this for even a single round. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA) Note that a Time Stop as well as the amount of Freezing Spheres you can lay ( If you lack Time Stop, you'll have to place them in subsequent rounds if you aren't fighting multiple enemies, for reduced damage ) are optional.

Disclaimer

I am not responsible for any damages to body, property and landscape which may result from the detonation of this formula in a populated or protected zone.

[Azreal]

Doesn't Delayed Blast Fireball take concentration? Which means you can't use it and Time Stop or am I wrong?

[Waterdeep Merch]

You are correct about delayed fireball, but time stop doesn't require concentration. So it still works.

[Lombra]

Doesn't Delayed Blast Fireball take concentration? Which means you can't use it and Time Stop or am I wrong?

Time stop doesn't require concentration, but delayed blast fireball and maze do.

[JNAProductions]

You're spending three 9ths (Time Stops), four 8ths (Delayed Blast and Maze) and three 7ths (Freezing Sphere) to deal 33d6 Cold and something like 42d6 Fire damage.

That's 115.5 cold damage and 147 fire damage, on average. 262.5 total. That won't even kill an Ancient Green Dragon (who notably is not immune to EITHER element). Not to mention, Maze has a 60' range. To continue on the example of an Ancient Green Dragon, it has a 90' breath weapon. It can pretty easily kite you with its 80' fly speed, occasionally spewing poison, and kill you slowly.

According to anydice, your maximum probable damage is around 300, leaving the dragon on 85 HP at best, honestly, and 122.5 on average. (Assuming he fails every save-he should make around half of them, just on his +8 Dex save, so let's cut the damage by 25%, to 197 points of damage on average. No Legendary Resistances used, leaving him at 188 HP.)

Admittedly, you do get one round to attack the dragon (he needs his action to escape the maze) so let's pop another 7th level spell-say, another Freezing Sphere, for an average of about 30 damage. Dragon is at 158.

Dragon then Wing Attacks (almost certainly with failed Dex saves from your Wizards) for 15 damage out of their (let's assume Con 18, for 163 HP) 163 HP.

You have another Freezing Sphere, another 30 damage, Dragon is at 128, and tail attacks for about 17 on one Wizard (let's call it 15, with the small miss chance).

Two more Freezing Spheres drop it to 68, but it then flies away straight up (eating a few weak opportunity attacks) and breathes down for an average of (with Con proficiency, a 55% chance of failing, so %77.5 damage of average) 60 poison damage to all of them.

Dragon is now 80' in the air, notably, out of Power Word Kill range. You could cast Fly or something, but that would eat your turn, and only one Wizard has a 9th left.

Overall, though, you probably COULD beat a single hard-to-deadly encounter using this strategy, assuming you're facing a single large foe with no support.

It only costs you 3/4 9th level slots, 4/4 8th level slots, and at least 3/8 7th level slots (probably more).

[Renduaz]

And Maze too. Wow it ended quickly this time. Although the freezing spheres stacking can be nasty with a good setup.

What ended quickly is your thinking, I'm afraid. As Waterdeep said, Fireball Blast requires concentration, but Time Stop doesn't. And hey, it's almost as if there is a reason that the first Wizard only casts Maze ( to maintain concentration ), and doesn't cast Delayed Fireball Blast himself at he next round, only adding spheres ( which don't require concentration ).

Wow, it ended quickly this time.

[JNAProductions]

A single Ancient Green Dragon is a hard encounter for 4 20th level PCs.

You killed one, probably. Now kill 5 more with 2 short rests.

[Lombra]

What ended quickly is your thinking, I'm afraid. As Waterdeep said, Fireball Blast requires concentration, but Time Stop doesn't. And hey, it's almost as if there is a reason that the first Wizard only casts Maze ( to maintain concentration ), and doesn't cast Delayed Fireball Blast himself at he next round, only adding spheres ( which don't require concentration ).

Wow, it ended quickly this time.

Sorry then, nice nuke.

[Renduaz]

You're spending three 9ths (Time Stops), four 8ths (Delayed Blast and Maze) and three 7ths (Freezing Sphere) to deal 33d6 Cold and something like 42d6 Fire damage.

That's 115.5 cold damage and 147 fire damage, on average. 262.5 total. That won't even kill an Ancient Green Dragon (who notably is not immune to EITHER element). Not to mention, Maze has a 60' range. To continue on the example of an Ancient Green Dragon, it has a 90' breath weapon. It can pretty easily kite you with its 80' fly speed, occasionally spewing poison, and kill you slowly.

According to anydice, your maximum probable damage is around 300, leaving the dragon on 85 HP at best, honestly, and 122.5 on average. (Assuming he fails every save-he should make around half of them, just on his +8 Dex save, so let's cut the damage by 25%, to 197 points of damage on average. No Legendary Resistances used, leaving him at 188 HP.)

Admittedly, you do get one round to attack the dragon (he needs his action to escape the maze) so let's pop another 7th level spell-say, another Freezing Sphere, for an average of about 30 damage. Dragon is at 158.

Dragon then Wing Attacks (almost certainly with failed Dex saves from your Wizards) for 15 damage out of their (let's assume Con 18, for 163 HP) 163 HP.

You have another Freezing Sphere, another 30 damage, Dragon is at 128, and tail attacks for about 17 on one Wizard (let's call it 15, with the small miss chance).

Two more Freezing Spheres drop it to 68, but it then flies away straight up (eating a few weak opportunity attacks) and breathes down for an average of (with Con proficiency, a 55% chance of failing, so %77.5 damage of average) 60 poison damage to all of them.

Dragon is now 80' in the air, notably, out of Power Word Kill range. You could cast Fly or something, but that would eat your turn, and only one Wizard has a 9th left.

Overall, though, you probably COULD beat a single hard-to-deadly encounter using this strategy, assuming you're facing a single large foe with no support.

It only costs you 3/4 9th level slots, 4/4 8th level slots, and at least 3/8 7th level slots (probably more).

33d6 Cold Damage? With an average of 3 turns for a Time Stop, we're looking at 20d6 per Wizard, and with 3 Wizards it sums up to 60d6 damage. Then the Delayed Fireball Blasts potentially pick up more damage if any target failed it's save.

I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this sphere/wing attack cycle. The dragon is mazed for the entire round in which all Wizard use Time Stop to lay down an average of 2 spheres during their turn, and as soon as it's the dragon's turn, he either pops back in there or stays mazed. And by the way - The First Wizard can maze him again on his turn as soon as he comes out and gets hit. He could even Maze him a third time with a 9th level slot.

[KorvinStarmast]

A single Ancient Green Dragon is a hard encounter for 4 20th level PCs.

You killed one, probably. Now kill 5 more with 2 short rests. I don't think there are that many ancient green dragons in most game worlds. Go beat up on a Solar or something, eh? :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

33d6 Cold Damage? With an average of 3 turns for a Time Stop, we're looking at 20d6 per Wizard, and with 3 Wizards it sums up to 60d6 damage. Then the Delayed Fireball Blasts potentially pick up more damage if any target failed it's save.

I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this sphere/wing attack cycle. The dragon is mazed for the entire round in which all Wizard use Time Stop to lay down an average of 2 spheres during their turn, and as soon as it's the dragon's turn, he either pops back in there or stays mazed.

Okay, let's assume this actually does do enough damage to kill the dragon.

Great! Well-done!

Kill 5 more with two short rests.


I don't think there are that many ancient green dragons in most game worlds. Go beat up on a Solar or something, eh? :smallbiggrin:

Fair enough. Kill 5 more medium-to-hard encounters. Ancient Green Dragon is just an example.

[Renduaz]

Okay, let's assume this actually does do enough damage to kill the dragon.

Great! Well-done!

Kill 5 more with two short rests.



Fair enough. Kill 5 more medium-to-hard encounters. Ancient Green Dragon is just an example.

You always seem very fond of overstating monster abilities in order to chide various techniques, but suddenly you're posing me a litmus test of "Well, you couldn't kill 5 more dragons within two short rests if you did that!" - Well then JNA, I would be very pleased if you went ahead and briefed me on how a standard party of level 20's is going to kill 5 ancient dragons within 2 short rests, exactly. Make sure to emphasize how the extremely intelligent ancient dragon is going to focus on swiping massive amounts of damage at your weakest party members, will you? I'd be interested to see that rundown.

Remember, do the calculations for all 5 of those ancient dragons or CR 20 creatures. And if you can't, then perhaps this question is a bit asinine.

Regardless, if you're planning on fighting 5 hard encounters in the span of a short rest, I'd recommend Bladesinger Wizards with Shield as their Spell Mastery choice. That ought to reinforce you quite well.

[Lombra]

If a time stop gives let's say 3.5 turns/wizard, and all the wizards use it, then the poor monster will suffer 14 turns of preparation, for a total of 4 DBFB and 10 OFS, if the wizards find a way to trigger simultaneously all the spheres. 10 spheres give an average of 350 damage, while four DBFB give 168, for a grand total of 518 damage. It is a lot. Am I missing something? I can see that using maze and betting on the failure of the saving throw will lend better results tho.

[Gtdead]

Or they can chain walls of force and one of them cast cast a cloud kill/incineration cloud/fan of knives/hound inside. They can keep it up for more than one encounters. Especially with a few simulacrums around.

[KorvinStarmast]

Have you considered tossing in a sorcerer into the mix and removing one of the wizards, in this thought experiment?

[Renduaz]

If a time stop gives let's say 3.5 turns/wizard, and all the wizards use it, then the poor monster will suffer 14 turns of preparation, for a total of 4 DBFB and 10 OFS, if the wizards find a way to trigger simultaneously all the spheres. 10 spheres give an average of 350 damage, while four DBFB give 168, for a grand total of 518 damage. It is a lot. Am I missing something? I can see that using maze and betting on the failure of the saving throw will lend better results tho.

Well, DBFB's description says the spell ends whenever you "Decide it" without any other requirement - "When the spell ends, either because your concentration is broken or because you decide to end it, the bead blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame that spreads around corners.", while as for the Sphere, it shatters after 1 minute or on impact, so if you lay it down, a blast from the Fireball will certainly impact it. Seems fine to me. As for Maze, it's necessary to avoid JNA's scenario for creatures with Legendary Actions. They'll be able to act immediately after the first Wizard's turn, even if he used Time Stop for 3 turns in a row, the creature will take a legendary action immediately afterwards, potentially breaking concentration, deflecting enemies away, or even teleporting the heck out of there.


Or they can chain walls of force and one of them cast cast a cloud kill/incineration cloud/fan of knives/hound inside. They can keep it up for more than one encounters. Especially with a few simulacrums around.

That's also a good lower-level method ( If the target is small enough, you don't actually have to chain Wall of Force, just form a sphere ). Problem with Wall of Force is, it can be teleported out of by any creature which can do it.


Have you considered tossing in a sorcerer into the mix and removing one of the wizards, in this thought experiment?

Sorcerers can't cast Maze nor Otiluke's Freezing Sphere though.

[JNAProductions]

Sure. Fighter, Battlemaster, with Sharpshooter and a 20 Dex. He puts out (with Bless, from the Cleric) an average of about 7.3 damage per shot, plus his Superiority Dice (we'll use 3 per fight) add 19.5, for an opening volley (with Action Surge) of 77.9 damage AND a Frightened Rider (three of them, which means the Dragon will likely fail a save). This can be made from up to 600' away, but let's assume the dragon opens with a breath attack at 90', and somehow won init.

Anyway, that's the DM Fighter. The Wizard casts Fly on the Paladin, who closes the 90' with a Dash, and gets in the dragon's face.

The Cleric might have to cast bless this turn, or if they were able to precast it, walks up and casts Sacred Flame. We assume he was not able to precast it.

Dragon makes two tail attacks, probably doing around 32 damage to him, counting miss chance, and then on his turn, pops Frightful Presence (which the Paladin almost certainly passes, with Wisdom saves and Aura of Protection, and the Fighter (who also has Resilient Wisdom) Cleric and Wizard probably pass too) and smacks the Paladin for about 60-65 damage. Paladin is kinda hurting, but he has 100 points of Lay on Hands to heal him.

Next turn, Fighter puts out 29.2 damage (107.1 dealt so far), Wizard casts Magic Missile at level 2 (signature spell) for 14 damage, bringing us to 121.1, Cleric casts Spiritual Weapon from a 4th level slot (7.7 damage, 128.8 total), and Paladin strikes twice, for 7.7 damage each time (no smites) or up to 20.1 damage per hit if he uses a 4th or 5th level slot on Smites. We'll assume he does, so that's 169 damage.

Dragon gets three tail attacks, and his usual routine, for around 100 damage total. Paladin is REALLY hurting-he'll have to lay on hands, and be less aggressive next fight.

Anyway, then the Fighter does another 29.2 (198.2), Wizard does another 14 (212.2), Cleric does Sacred Flame (9) and Spiritual Weapon (7.7) for 228.9, and Paladin (who's going first this time-yes, Delay is TECHNICALLY not a mechanic in 5E, but it's easy to add back in) heals himself for a whole 100 HP.

Dragon pretty much wipes out that Lay on Hands pool that was healed up, he's near death himself.

Next round, Fighter does his 29.2 routine (258.1), Cleric does Sacred Flame and Spiritual Weapon (16.7) for 274.8, Paladin does enough damage to get him at or below 100 HP (10.2 needed) and Wizard Power Word Kills him.

After the fight, Paladin switches to their Longbow and resolves to stay back next time, Cleric and Wizard resolve to drop more spell slots on the fight.

Total resources used? Half of a Fighter's short-rest resources, one 3rd level and one 9th level slot from the Wizard, one 4th level slot from the Cleric, and three 4th and one 5th level slot from the Paladin, as well as their Lay on Hands pool and HP.

Now, using more resources, the fight can obviously be ended faster. Or we could swap the Cleric for a Druid and nab Pass Without Trace to get a surprise round on the dragon (from 600' away, too, making it spend several turns just getting to the people).

In fact, looking at how much damage the Paladin takes, I'd almost certainly want to spend more resources on the fight. But the point is, that combo might do a lot of damage, but it costs way more than you gain from it.

[Renduaz]

Sure. Fighter, Battlemaster, with Sharpshooter and a 20 Dex. He puts out (with Bless, from the Cleric) an average of about 7.3 damage per shot, plus his Superiority Dice (we'll use 3 per fight) add 19.5, for an opening volley (with Action Surge) of 77.9 damage AND a Frightened Rider (three of them, which means the Dragon will likely fail a save). This can be made from up to 600' away, but let's assume the dragon opens with a breath attack at 90', and somehow won init.

Anyway, that's the DM Fighter. The Wizard casts Fly on the Paladin, who closes the 90' with a Dash, and gets in the dragon's face.

The Cleric might have to cast bless this turn, or if they were able to precast it, walks up and casts Sacred Flame. We assume he was not able to precast it.

Dragon makes two tail attacks, probably doing around 32 damage to him, counting miss chance, and then on his turn, pops Frightful Presence (which the Paladin almost certainly passes, with Wisdom saves and Aura of Protection, and the Fighter (who also has Resilient Wisdom) Cleric and Wizard probably pass too) and smacks the Paladin for about 60-65 damage. Paladin is kinda hurting, but he has 100 points of Lay on Hands to heal him.

Next turn, Fighter puts out 29.2 damage (107.1 dealt so far), Wizard casts Magic Missile at level 2 (signature spell) for 14 damage, bringing us to 121.1, Cleric casts Spiritual Weapon from a 4th level slot (7.7 damage, 128.8 total), and Paladin strikes twice, for 7.7 damage each time (no smites) or up to 20.1 damage per hit if he uses a 4th or 5th level slot on Smites. We'll assume he does, so that's 169 damage.

Dragon gets three tail attacks, and his usual routine, for around 100 damage total. Paladin is REALLY hurting-he'll have to lay on hands, and be less aggressive next fight.

Anyway, then the Fighter does another 29.2 (198.2), Wizard does another 14 (212.2), Cleric does Sacred Flame (9) and Spiritual Weapon (7.7) for 228.9, and Paladin (who's going first this time-yes, Delay is TECHNICALLY not a mechanic in 5E, but it's easy to add back in) heals himself for a whole 100 HP.

Dragon pretty much wipes out that Lay on Hands pool that was healed up, he's near death himself.

Next round, Fighter does his 29.2 routine (258.1), Cleric does Sacred Flame and Spiritual Weapon (16.7) for 274.8, Paladin does enough damage to get him at or below 100 HP (10.2 needed) and Wizard Power Word Kills him.

After the fight, Paladin switches to their Longbow and resolves to stay back next time, Cleric and Wizard resolve to drop more spell slots on the fight.

Total resources used? Half of a Fighter's short-rest resources, one 3rd level and one 9th level slot from the Wizard, one 4th level slot from the Cleric, and three 4th and one 5th level slot from the Paladin, as well as their Lay on Hands pool and HP.

Now, using more resources, the fight can obviously be ended faster. Or we could swap the Cleric for a Druid and nab Pass Without Trace to get a surprise round on the dragon (from 600' away, too, making it spend several turns just getting to the people).

In fact, looking at how much damage the Paladin takes, I'd almost certainly want to spend more resources on the fight. But the point is, that combo might do a lot of damage, but it costs way more than you gain from it.

A. What is "Frightened Rider"

B. I see you're also using Feats for this

C. I'm missing a few Legendary Actions available to the dragon throughout this scenario from reading this, which are 3 per round, as well as his potential Multiattack on his turn. If you could rewrite it more technically.

D. Assuming you're talking about the Green Dragon here, the most intelligent of all with an INT of 20 by the way, somehow keeps attacking your armored paladin consistently, who is also flying by the virtue of your Wizard's concentration, instead of using his own speed to reach your Wizard at the first opportunity and annihilate him, knowing full well it would be the best tactic. A very generous assessment in your favor, it seems. And by generous I meant hypocritical and utterly unrealistic.

E. Green, hyper-intelligent and not too keen on bravado dragon realizes halfway through the fight at the very least that he's being had and probably dashes 160 feet the heck out of there anyway, either finding better prey or plotting other methods against you

F. A scenario specifically designed for a green dragon ( Which is not even realistic in it's portrayal of the dragon's decisions, certainly not up to YOUR own standards for criticizing stuff ) and will happen radically different or won't work at all with other creatures, such as magic users or teleporting beings. Meanwhile, Maze and an instant explosion is a universal method, even those with Fire or Cold immunity will still be affected by either the sphere or fireball.

The Nuke still remains as a perfectly good "quick takedown" method for any scenario in which it is necessary, with essentially almost zero room for any margins of error or consideration for the creature's behavior. For example, since you know how much I love talking about her - This will work extremely well against a foe like Tiamat. Mazed, no saving throw, actually has just a 50/50 chance of escaping with +8 INT saving throw at the end of the round, suffers tons of damage without even getting to act, if she expends legendary resistances to halve as many as she can, she's even more ****ed while facing Wizards, then as soon as she appears and gets blasted ( Wasted her action on escaping the Maze ), the first Wizard makes her go back and stand in the corner by Mazing her yet again, and adding whichever Freezing Spheres weren't added before, and potentially a whole parade of summoned creatures, area effects, Mirage Arcane cages and other fun gifts for her when she returns while they stroll out of her range with their movement ( Add Longstrider, Misty Step bonus and other stuff ). Then when she gets abused some more and comes to the Wizards, First Wizard Mazes her again with his 9th level slot ( Used two Mazes so far at 8th level ). Not to mention you could swap out 1 Wizard for a Cleric/Paladin if you wanted to, or making them Abjuration Wizards with Spell Resistance, Shield in Spell Mastery and Feats in Armor so that even if she managed to hit once, she's gonna have to roll possibly up to 15 or more higher to hit, and so forth. Provided she isn't completely dead by now ( Which with her relatively low HP, she probably would be rather quickly ). Your party, on the other hand, might not be so universally able.

[JNAProductions]

Menacing Attack-note that I actually assumed the Dragon made all three saves.

Yes, I'm using feats. Who doesn't use feats?

I accounted for Legendary actions.

Yes, the Dragon could Dash to the Wizard, eating a Smite-filled AoO from the Paladin, whereupon the Wizard would retreat. Even if the Wizard is forced to Disengage... Let's be honest, his damage was not much of the fight. It was mostly Paladin and Fighter doing work.

And okay, you successfully ran off an Ancient Green Dragon. Good show, rest up, and hunt it down-you've got a Wizard, Teleport to its lair and surprise it with murder. (Possibly don't even spend time resting, so it doesn't get a chance to heal up.) Even if you don't hunt it down, I'd consider that a successful encounter.

Oh, and Tiamat? Is immune to cold and fire damage.

[Renduaz]

Menacing Attack-note that I actually assumed the Dragon made all three saves.

Yes, I'm using feats. Who doesn't use feats?

I accounted for Legendary actions.

Yes, the Dragon could Dash to the Wizard, eating a Smite-filled AoO from the Paladin, whereupon the Wizard would retreat. Even if the Wizard is forced to Disengage... Let's be honest, his damage was not much of the fight. It was mostly Paladin and Fighter doing work.

And okay, you successfully ran off an Ancient Green Dragon. Good show, rest up, and hunt it down-you've got a Wizard, Teleport to its lair and surprise it with murder. (Possibly don't even spend time resting, so it doesn't get a chance to heal up.) Even if you don't hunt it down, I'd consider that a successful encounter.

Oh, and Tiamat? Is immune to cold and fire damage.

You accounted for some, due to the writing style I can't really tell how many there are, but regardless, I'm pretty sure the Dragon is most definitely going to come for the Wizard, since it's probably seen that kind of magic very often, he's the weakest target, and the source of your Paladin's flying ability. Which means if he's down, your Paladin goes down too. As well as if he even breaks concentration, and it's going to do so immediately on it's second turn, while the AoO won't hurt it very much, and since it's still faster than your Paladin, he won't be able to reach the dragon on his next turn. That's even assuming you're fighting with enough open distance that the dragon needs to dash in the first place and not in some tight cave.

Otherwise why not devise a tactic in which a Sorcerer with Spell Sniper, Sharpshooter, Distant Spell and so forth doesn't start going to town on a dragon from up to 1200 feet away while all his archer buddies back him up? In cases like this, an intelligent dragon is just going to fly extremely high or duck behind some mountain and escape regardless. At any rate, your party is conditional on a whole bunch of things, my method on the other hand is conditional on almost nothing, it does what it says, which is a nuke - Nuke beings on the spot without much chance of fleeing or circumstances. Which is extremely useful in a variety of scenarios and a long rest hardly detracts from.

Also remember that apparently you have 5 ancient dragons to take care of and you have to do so within 2 short rests. Which means they are either working together, or you have some time constraint which requires you to kill them very quickly. If they all flee constantly and you need to chase them down ( Even with a Teleport ability, the dragon could still have traps, wards and immediately escape upon notice ), you've probably failed your task. Otherwise there's nothing stopping you from Nuking a dragon and taking a Long Rest before proceeding.

Oh, by the way - Did I mention that if your Wizards are Elves, they only have to meditate for 4 hours which is only 2 hours longer than two short rests of 1 hour each? Yeah, so here's yet another solution for you. Now as for Tiamat, you are correct, I completely forgot about her immunities. Bad example. Make that Graz'zt instead.

[JNAProductions]

I assume the dragon started 90' away, and opened up with a poison breath. I even gave it the winning initiative.

Regardless, if you want to do it on Graz'zt, note that he resists Fire and Cold, so he takes half damage.

He also has a +15 Dexterity saving throw and Magic resistance, making his odds of failure on any given spell slightly over 2%-or in other words, you'd need to pile 45 spells on him before he'd fail a Dex save, on average.

So, assuming you deal somewhere around 150d6 damage, he'll take 140. You now have an angry Graz'zt in your face. In fact, if he spends 3 rounds in the Maze, he'll also have 3 new Demon friends to say hello, since he's not incapiciated in the Maze and can therefore summon.

You can re-Maze him, in which case his demon allies will attack you, but you do NOT have the spell slots to pull off a second nuke.

And it takes about (assuming an AC of 22, from Mage Armor, +4 Dex, and Shield) two or three rounds per Wizard to kill them, ignoring Legendary Actions.

[Renduaz]

I assume the dragon started 90' away, and opened up with a poison breath. I even gave it the winning initiative.

Regardless, if you want to do it on Graz'zt, note that he resists Fire and Cold, so he takes half damage.

He also has a +15 Dexterity saving throw and Magic resistance, making his odds of failure on any given spell slightly over 2%-or in other words, you'd need to pile 45 spells on him before he'd fail a Dex save, on average.

So, assuming you deal somewhere around 150d6 damage, he'll take 140. You now have an angry Graz'zt in your face. In fact, if he spends 3 rounds in the Maze, he'll also have 3 new Demon friends to say hello, since he's not incapiciated in the Maze and can therefore summon.

You can re-Maze him, in which case his demon allies will attack you, but you do NOT have the spell slots to pull off a second nuke.

And it takes about (assuming an AC of 22, from Mage Armor, +4 Dex, and Shield) two or three rounds per Wizard to kill them, ignoring Legendary Actions.

He does indeed, ah. Perhaps it's not optimal for the fire and cold resisters out there, although we're still dealing quite a bit of damage while keeping him inactive for a creature which can otherwise charm at will, dominate, and nigh endless teleports. Also, 3 demon friends, how? Are you confusing him for other Demon Lords? He can't summon anything. As for creatures who could, they would have to summon them in the Maze, in which case those creatures would have to succeed their own INT save to escape as well. And if they all escape at the same time even better, since then the blast radius will instantly kill them, even if they appear in the nearest unoccupied space.

Much less useful against resistant creatures, sure, but our method is still working as intended at least. I guess these guys don't count as "Almost anything", even though we still decimated them while preventing them from all of their various shenanigans for a long duration using Maze, yet still dealing damage in our turns because of using delayed spells.

[Sigreid]

If you are determined to spend that kind of power just have them all cast meteor swarm and be done with it.

[Renduaz]

If you are determined to spend that kind of power just have them all cast meteor swarm and be done with it.

Meteor Swarm won't work in close encounters unless you want to hit your own party as well, and leaves a creature with it's turn during which it can escape, move close to the party, or teleport and use all of it's other abilities, including legendary actions during a round. Since you used up your 9th level spell slot, you won't be able to Time Stop either.

[Kane0]

Neat, though I wonder what 4 high level wizards can't do.

[BW022]

This also fails rather hard if the ancient green dragon goes first?

A DC 22 constitution save for an average of 77hp of poison damage. Even if the wizards all have a reasonable constitution, all are now at half health. They could also be frightened (DC 19 will saves). Even if the wizards manage to do this with blowing a significant number of their high level spell slots... they are now all at half (or lower) health for the next encounter.

He could also grapple a wizard and pull him under water or land in the middle of them? Or the wizards could just waste a bunch of high level spells on someone casting an illusion of a dragon while the main dragon is come up from the pond behind them? Or they could walk into a rock trap prepared by the dragon (20 intelligence), take massive damage and be pins behind rocks while the dragon breaths on them and then moves underwater.

Given the dragon's intelligence, cunning, and senses... almost certain he'll be ready for them.

[JNAProductions]

This also fails rather hard if the ancient green dragon goes first?

A DC 22 constitution save for an average of 77hp of poison damage. Even if the wizards all have a reasonable constitution, all are now at half health. They could also be frightened (DC 19 will saves). Even if the wizards manage to do this with blowing a significant number of their high level spell slots... they are now all at half (or lower) health for the next encounter.

He could also grapple a wizard and pull him under water or land in the middle of them? Or the wizards could just waste a bunch of high level spells on someone casting an illusion of a dragon while the main dragon is come up from the pond behind them? Or they could walk into a rock trap prepared by the dragon (20 intelligence), take massive damage and be pins behind rocks while the dragon breaths on them and then moves underwater.

Given the dragon's intelligence, cunning, and senses... almost certain he'll be ready for them.

No, I'll grant that if they manage to close to 60', they can probably beat an Ancient Green Dragon. Now, how they do that is up to the reader's imagination, but yes, dropping over a dozen 7th+ level spell slots will beat a Hard encounter.

And you're supposed to be able to handle 6-8 of those in a day.

[Kane0]

I believe you guys are looking at this wrong. This concept isn't based on a standard adventuring day. This tactic appears to be a NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW NO SECOND CHANCES kind of affair. Y'know, like an alpha strike.

[JNAProductions]

I believe you guys are looking at this wrong. This concept isn't based on a standard adventuring day. This tactic appears to be a NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW NO SECOND CHANCES kind of affair. Y'know, like an alpha strike.

Except it won't work on Tiamat (immunity), it won't on Graz'zt (resistance, Magic Resistance, and great Dex saves), hell, if the Green Dragon gets out of the Maze soon enough, it won't even one-shot that!

Who would it be used against? The sheer expenditure of spell slots means you basically have to be facing the BBEG to justify the cost, and what BBEG worth their salt won't have minions ready to disrupt concentration?

[EdenIndustries]

Renduaz I just want to say I always enjoy your posts! I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of your crazy ideas and schemes, but they're always interesting, clever, and I appreciate the thought and work you put into them! So kudos!

It seems you get a lot of negativity in response to your posts so I just wanted to put in some positive encouragement here :smallsmile:

[Renduaz]

This also fails rather hard if the ancient green dragon goes first?

A DC 22 constitution save for an average of 77hp of poison damage. Even if the wizards all have a reasonable constitution, all are now at half health. They could also be frightened (DC 19 will saves). Even if the wizards manage to do this with blowing a significant number of their high level spell slots... they are now all at half (or lower) health for the next encounter.

He could also grapple a wizard and pull him under water or land in the middle of them? Or the wizards could just waste a bunch of high level spells on someone casting an illusion of a dragon while the main dragon is come up from the pond behind them? Or they could walk into a rock trap prepared by the dragon (20 intelligence), take massive damage and be pins behind rocks while the dragon breaths on them and then moves underwater.

Given the dragon's intelligence, cunning, and senses... almost certain he'll be ready for them.

If an Ancient Green Dragon is the example here, then if you were to have access to an Heroes' Feast from somewhere, that should solve that for you, although at any rate all encounters ought to be adequately prepared for regardless of the party. A Wish from the first Wizard ( Who isn't going to use a 9th level slot ) can grant poison resistance for up to 8 hours, if you have the intention or suspicion of facing an ancient green dragon soon. A Contingency ( 10 days duration ) with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere ( 1 action, can be cast on yourself ) which triggers instantly at any circumstances of your choosing ( "When A dragon attacks me/When I'm attacked/When the Green Dragon sprays poison in my direction/whatever ) can protect Wizards from virtually everything possible during their first rounds of combat. Once the dragon has taken it's turn, the first mage simply breaks concentration on the sphere by casting Maze, and then the dragon is no longer a threat anyway.

When facing other dragons, all the former easily covers it already, and you furthermore have the various Investiture spells ( With total immunity to a damage type ) or better yet and more cost-efficient, having the 1st-level Absorb Elements as a reaction. And likewise for any other creature you're worried about attacking first.

[Kane0]

Except it won't work on Tiamat (immunity), it won't on Graz'zt (resistance, Magic Resistance, and great Dex saves), hell, if the Green Dragon gets out of the Maze soon enough, it won't even one-shot that!

Who would it be used against? The sheer expenditure of spell slots means you basically have to be facing the BBEG to justify the cost, and what BBEG worth their salt won't have minions ready to disrupt concentration?

So you use it when it does work, thats sort of the point. Celestials, Elementals, Fiends and dragons usually have elemental resistances, so they aren't the prime targets of the strategy. It would work fine on humanoids, giants, plants, beasts, monstrocities, plus some undead, fey and constructs. Being wizards they adjust to the situation, this is just one possible strategy available to them.
Sure, it's not the most efficient use of available resources over a busy day or against multiple foes. Its one tool in the toolbox to use against a single powerful foe that is susceptible to fire/cold and that you can't afford to have escape, and something that effectively deals with legendary resistance and legendary actions. What's the harm in admitting that its a combination that works under the right circumstances?

[Renduaz]

No, I'll grant that if they manage to close to 60', they can probably beat an Ancient Green Dragon. Now, how they do that is up to the reader's imagination, but yes, dropping over a dozen 7th+ level spell slots will beat a Hard encounter.

And you're supposed to be able to handle 6-8 of those in a day.

Even in your scenario which relied quite heavily on a few...optimistic... visions of which party member the dragon is going to focus on and otherwise, you still actually haven't made a complete recovery in your short rest, and 8 of those encounters in a day ( And you're calling a CR 22 dragon as one of those encounters ) will put you up against say, an Ancient Black Dragon, a Kraken, a Demilich, Baphomet, an Archmage of level 20, Maegera the Dawn Titan and 2 others of the same caliber. Riiight.

Also, do remember this 4 ( small number ) Wizard party is just a proof of concept. Not only can they be bladesingers who can very well take care of themselves, or Elves who need only meditate 4 hours before restoring all they have, but solo Archmages are hardly defenseless even without their spells.

They tend to go around with a gigantic horde of armored Undead, Planar-Bound creatures ( Including healing celestials and so forth ) and other entourages, since that's how Wizards protect themselves - they summon ****.


Except it won't work on Tiamat (immunity), it won't on Graz'zt (resistance, Magic Resistance, and great Dex saves), hell, if the Green Dragon gets out of the Maze soon enough, it won't even one-shot that!

Who would it be used against? The sheer expenditure of spell slots means you basically have to be facing the BBEG to justify the cost, and what BBEG worth their salt won't have minions ready to disrupt concentration?

Well, Greenie can be Mazed again, although admittedly Tiamat and Graz'zt are problematic due to deflecting cold and fire damage so well. But that is not relevant, since this is simply one tool those 4 Wizards have in their arsenal. And there are actually other tactics of that nature available, albeit less powerful, for both neutralizing and swiftly dealing tons of damage to a fire and cold resistant creature.

Still using Maze and Time Stop, a Whirlwind replaces the Delayed Fireball Blast, possibly caging the whole thing too with Mirage Arcane, although the freezing sphere would have to be considered further.


Renduaz I just want to say I always enjoy your posts! I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of your crazy ideas and schemes, but they're always interesting, clever, and I appreciate the thought and work you put into them! So kudos!

It seems you get a lot of negativity in response to your posts so I just wanted to put in some positive encouragement here :smallsmile:

Thanks, that's why I post them! I like magical tactics in campaigns. Encouraging to hear.

[JNAProductions]

Because it doesn't work efficiently. It's a big waste of resources. I'll admit, against certain targets without allies, it will work just fine. But even when it does work, it's almost always going to be very wasteful.

[Renduaz]

Because it doesn't work efficiently. It's a big waste of resources. I'll admit, against certain targets without allies, it will work just fine. But even when it does work, it's almost always going to be very wasteful.

It works perfectly well on every creature without fire and cold immunities or resistances, and it's greatest strength is pinning down creatures who are fond of teleporting the **** out of where they don't want to be or creatures whom you really, really don't want to see using their legendary abilities for an entire round, while still dealing some very fair damage to them during the round they're Mazed and neutralized as soon as they come out , which is not possible with direct effect spells. Then you can just Maze them again whenever you want ( And one more time after that ) while leisurely contemplating your next steps or letting your summoned creatures restore some HP.

[JNAProductions]

It works perfectly well on every creature without fire and cold immunities or resistances, and it's greatest strength is pinning down creatures who are fond of teleporting the **** out of where they don't want to be or creatures whom you really, really don't want to see using their legendary abilities for an entire round, while still dealing some very fair damage to them during the round they're Mazed and neutralized as soon as they come out , which is not possible with direct effect spells. Then you can just Maze them again whenever you want ( And one more time after that ) while leisurely contemplating your next steps or letting your summoned creatures restore some HP.

With what summoning spells? All the ones that directly summon stuff are concentration, so that's a no-go, and Planar Binding is effectively just hiring people. Yes, it's easier for a Wizard to do than a Fighter, but at high levels, a Fighter or other martial should have easy access to planar portals and therefore the ability to hire Celestials or Elementals or whatnot.

[Renduaz]

With what summoning spells? All the ones that directly summon stuff are concentration, so that's a no-go, and Planar Binding is effectively just hiring people. Yes, it's easier for a Wizard to do than a Fighter, but at high levels, a Fighter or other martial should have easy access to planar portals and therefore the ability to hire Celestials or Elementals or whatnot.

The various Undead summons are not concentration, Create Undead at the start of a day, with 3 wights that can have up to 12 zombies each, albeit quite weak, they can be reinforced to make decent and distractions, especially with proper tactics ( Spreading them out, equipping with long-range bows, armor ) etc and protective long-lasting spells. Planar Binding will indeed be the Wizard's primary choice, and do me a favor, let's not insult everyone's intelligence by calling it "hiring people". I regret to inform you that a spell which can make Celestials, Fey, Fiends and Elementals, of any level, your slaves for a year ( And P.S - If you haven't knocked down or trapped every powerful one of those you fought while getting up to 20, you're doing it wrong ) is very, very different from so-called "hiring".

I have to say that this massive hypocrisy on your part is getting out of control. If I were to start a thread and make a plan involving me casually hiring celestials and elementals from the planes ( Of sufficiently high level ), I will bet that we'd never see the end of you. "They have obligations! They won't agree! I'd charge 10,000 gold for each! Why would a Solar serving in mount Celestia come to fight your mortal battles for money? Are you retarded, Renduaz?" and so on and so forth, which would all be valid points. Furthermore, the DM makes the decisions on who agrees to be hired, and with you as my DM, it would never happen in all of eternity, so that's one more reason why Planar Binding is not equivalent.

So no, it isn't like "hiring people". Hiring people is more like a mercenary company. Which is possible, but you can in fact be more powerful and with even less cost going with 4 Wizards that possess Create Undead and have the magical means to successfully bind a whole assortment of powerful entities to their service during their adventures. For instance, a Solar does not even have any Legendary Resistances. Facing at least 1 Divination Wizard, he's completely done for with Imprisonment before he can even blink, then gets Planar Bound. Even without any Divination Wizard and even with his saving throw advantage, all those Wizards barraging it with Polymorph/Feeblemind/straight up Dominate Monster from one of them, Force Cages, Whirlwinds, heck, a Time Stop to top it all, well you get the idea, it's really not even a question. That Solar is getting neutralized very fast and then becomes the next party healer on a long list of Solars. Good luck on "hiring" all of those instead.

[JNAProductions]

Undead will chew up your spell slots. Notably, if you want Wights, you need to cast it from an 8th level spell slot, meaning you cannot combine these two strategies.

I did misread Planar Binding-that can be abused to gain a lot of Celestials, Feys, Fiends, and/or Elementals. It does cost you a pretty penny, and doesn't work by RAW with the magic circle trick (but that's a clear oversight, and SHOULD work, so I won't harp on that).

So yeah, Planar Binding works, if you can cough up the material component, and you probably can, and can summon the creatures, which might be a bit harder, but with four Wizards, can be done without too much trouble.

[Renduaz]

Undead will chew up your spell slots. Notably, if you want Wights, you need to cast it from an 8th level spell slot, meaning you cannot combine these two strategies.

I did misread Planar Binding-that can be abused to gain a lot of Celestials, Feys, Fiends, and/or Elementals. It does cost you a pretty penny, and doesn't work by RAW with the magic circle trick (but that's a clear oversight, and SHOULD work, so I won't harp on that).

So yeah, Planar Binding works, if you can cough up the material component, and you probably can, and can summon the creatures, which might be a bit harder, but with four Wizards, can be done without too much trouble.

Chew up my spell slots, with a duration of 24 hours? I don't think so. I can combine those two very well. As I've said, taking the simple method out of it's "proof of concept" isolation, Archmages are going to be well defended at all times, then at the end of 24 hours, you re-assert control over the wights. That's what a 4-Wizard party should be doing from the very first moment. If they lost the undead, then they simply need to be replenished for the next 24 hours ( Wights re-created if lost, and finding level 1 humanoids for the Wights to kill and animate with teleportations is not a problem ). All of this should happen literally every time they start a new session.

We're looking at 3 Wights per Wizard, 12 zombies per Wight, which is 12 Wights and 144 zombies. Armored, ranged, spread out, and showing any dragon a good time as soon as it emerges from his second mazing ( After getting instantly Mazed and blasted to the face the first time around ) by the First Wizard, during which round ( The second Round - Once he got mazed, blasted, then mazed again ) all the Wizards Misty Step'd, dashed and potentially even went invisible or god knows what else off. Then if he's not done for yet, he gets Mazed a third time, during which all remaining Wizards pop out Conjured Elementals of the 5th level ( No remaining fireballs, and haven't wasted 5th level slots yet ), go away yet again, then come back to the dragon after ALL of that in full health and a bunch of other tricks up their sleeve.

And we're not even talking about Simualcrums.

A 1000 gold is something most 20th level parties should be able to get on the fly really, walking around with hundreds of thousands, not even talking about "cheating" infinite gold methods. But rather than summoning they can round up almost every single 15-20 CR creature they encounter to serve them rather easily if it lacks any legendary resistances or magic immunities. I mean, a single Div Wizard could start his own Solar factory until some God puts a stop to it, but that's just pushing the absurdity of how easy it would be.

[JNAProductions]

You do realize that you need to spend an 8th level slot a day to keep control over 2 Wights? If you're counting 3 Wights per Wizard, those are your 9th level slots gone.

[Renduaz]

You do realize that you need to spend an 8th level slot a day to keep control over 2 Wights? If you're counting 3 Wights per Wizard, those are your 9th level slots gone.

Yes, you must be misunderstanding. You don't cast Create Undead on the very same day that you're going or anticipating a big fight, you don't normally stay awake for 24 hours. This is something a Wizard party does right at the very onset of getting 9th level slots and maintains at all times for protection, Ideally casting it right at the hour before going to sleep. A Long Rest is only 8 hours. You're supposed to re-assert the control prior to resting on a given day, then it's re-asserted for the next 16 hours when you wake up. Then go fight your big battle.

[Kane0]

OK, now I have to see a Solar Farm. That mental image nearly made me have to explain some things to my boss.

[Sigreid]

Meteor Swarm won't work in close encounters unless you want to hit your own party as well, and leaves a creature with it's turn during which it can escape, move close to the party, or teleport and use all of it's other abilities, including legendary actions during a round. Since you used up your 9th level spell slot, you won't be able to Time Stop either.

That's what evokers are for.

[Chugger]

I like that Renduaz is being creative here. Yes, he should be challenged, but don't you think he should be challenged _politely_? Maybe the harshness of some of the responses wasn't intended. When we type we can "sound harsh" when we don't mean it ... but a couple of responses to Renduaz have been borderline rude if not outright rude, from where I sit. I'm not saying we need to be Carebear Island here. But an ounce of politeness goes a long way - and this is something I need to remind myself of all the time. Good luck to you all.

[Unoriginal]

Alright, I have two questions:


First -what happen if the opponent just decides to wait out the duration of the Maze? Wouldn't the Freezing Spheres break down way before the 10 min countdown?

You could ask "why would an opponent decide to not escape", but I think most foes who require that kind of firepower to kill are aware that if 4 wizards have Maze'd you, they might be preparing a trap and that more of their spells aren't going to last 10 mins if they casted it as soon as you were gone.


Second- I might be reading it wrong, but doesn't dropping the Freezing Sphere on the space the foe occupied requires the wizard to *be* within said space? I mean, it explicitly says that the sphere explode if thrown.

If this is true, then it means each of the wizards would have to move to the same spot and drop their Sphere... while being in the middle of the AoE of a lot of dangerous spells, and with the risk of the foe reappearing and triggering all the spells at once.

I'm not sure which distance the wizards would consider safe, but I'm pretty sure they don't have the speed to go to the foe's space and then retreat outside of the spells' AoE within the same turn. Or given that the Sphere's AoE is 60ft in radius, the wizards would need more than 2 turns to get out of the AoE once they've dropped it

[Zalabim]

Counteroffer: Wiz 1 casts maze. Wiz 2-4 ready an action to cast meteor swarm when the creature returns. If the creature doesn't return on its turn, then on Wiz 1's turn, voluntarily stop concentrating on Maze and cast meteor swarm.

[qube]

It's an interesting idea, but ...

You're spending three 9ths (Time Stops), four 8ths (Delayed Blast and Maze) and three 7ths (Freezing Sphere) to deal 33d6 Cold and something like 42d6 Fire damage.76d6? I'm not impressed.

Considering
a single assassins deals 20d6 sneak attack (+ weapon, + ofther stuff(ability score/magic), that gets about 25d6 ); And thus 4 party members = 100d6.
Heck, A flame tongue frenzied beserker does 24d6 or 32d6
(2d6 weapon + 2d6 fire +7 strength +6 rage equals about 8d6
x3 (extra attack, frenzy), or x4 (reaction attack if it))
The massively OP ( :smallwink: ) champion with a flame tongue (6d6) using his action point (2x 4 attack), and, lets say a pair of crits = 60d6
x4 = 240d6, using nothing but short rest resources

And I think 4 fighter sniper oathbowers still take look better...

[Luppers]

33d6 Cold Damage? With an average of 3 turns for a Time Stop, we're looking at 20d6 per Wizard, and with 3 Wizards it sums up to 60d6 damage. Then the Delayed Fireball Blasts potentially pick up more damage if any target failed it's save.

I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this sphere/wing attack cycle. The dragon is mazed for the entire round in which all Wizard use Time Stop to lay down an average of 2 spheres during their turn, and as soon as it's the dragon's turn, he either pops back in there or stays mazed. And by the way - The First Wizard can maze him again on his turn as soon as he comes out and gets hit. He could even Maze him a third time with a 9th level slot.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the range for throwing the freezing sphere is 40 feet and the radius 60 feet. Wouldn't that mean the wizards are also taking the 60d6, and most likely dying?

[Citan]

Requirements

1. Four Wizards of at least level 15, or 20 for maximum effect.
2. Delayed Blast Fireball/Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Simulacrum ( Optional ), Time Stop ( Optional ), Maze

Steps

1. The first Wizard in order, regardless of which stage in combat you're at, provided you haven't expended high-level spell slots yet, should Maze the target and maintain concentration. No saving throw ( **** you legendary resistance ), so it's gone until at least it's next turn ( When it can use an action ). For that reason it's preferable to do this at the very first round of combat for better outcomes.

2. Second Wizard uses Time Stop, Casts Delayed Blast Fireball at the 8th level in the creature's previous location ( or an inch near it ), then casts Otiluke's Freezing Sphere at the 7th/6th ( Nice try Limited Magic Immunity, take this ) levels as many times as he has turns, and places them down in the same area as well.

3. The third Wizard does the same.

4. The fourth Wizard does the same.

5. If the target had not yet succeeded it's saving throw, the first Wizard add his own Freezing spheres, and meanwhile the damage of the fireballs increases every turn.

Bonus

If you want to go really overboard with this, each of the Wizard's Simulacrums could also cast Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball + Freezing Spheres as well, while the party may be composed of Divination Wizards to force the target to fail as many saving throws as possible for half damage as soon as it appears.


Results

I'll leave it to you to calculate what's the average damage from this for even a single round. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA) Note that a Time Stop as well as the amount of Freezing Spheres you can lay ( If you lack Time Stop, you'll have to place them in subsequent rounds if you aren't fighting multiple enemies, for reduced damage ) are optional.

Disclaimer

I am not responsible for any damages to body, property and landscape which may result from the detonation of this formula in a populated or protected zone.
Well, you should provide the detailed expected damage per round so we can really appreciate how good or bad this is.

Not only because it's usually the polite thing to do. But also because, so far, I really don't see how this would be better than a plain succession of Meteor Swarm, which each amounts to 40d6, or just Extended Delayed Blast Fireball from Sorcerers, with one of them using some shenanigans to allow his fellows to come stealthily enough, or fast enough, or anyways safe enough to launch them without problem.

[Renduaz]

Alright, I have two questions:


First -what happen if the opponent just decides to wait out the duration of the Maze? Wouldn't the Freezing Spheres break down way before the 10 min countdown?

You could ask "why would an opponent decide to not escape", but I think most foes who require that kind of firepower to kill are aware that if 4 wizards have Maze'd you, they might be preparing a trap and that more of their spells aren't going to last 10 mins if they casted it as soon as you were gone.


Second- I might be reading it wrong, but doesn't dropping the Freezing Sphere on the space the foe occupied requires the wizard to *be* within said space? I mean, it explicitly says that the sphere explode if thrown.

If this is true, then it means each of the wizards would have to move to the same spot and drop their Sphere... while being in the middle of the AoE of a lot of dangerous spells, and with the risk of the foe reappearing and triggering all the spells at once.

I'm not sure which distance the wizards would consider safe, but I'm pretty sure they don't have the speed to go to the foe's space and then retreat outside of the spells' AoE within the same turn. Or given that the Sphere's AoE is 60ft in radius, the wizards would need more than 2 turns to get out of the AoE once they've dropped it

Maze is a concentration spell, so if the Wizards notice the foe doesn't emerge by the time their freezing sphere at least are about to expire, the first Wizard casts another concentration spell and forces them to appear. Which would be extremely bad for them since the first Wizard is going to wait all of something like 9 turns before doing so to drop the creature right when all the fireballs have garnered almost double their damage.

As for the globe, the spell description says that you can also "set the globe down" without shattering it. If you could not theoretically slide it or something, then you'd need to use your movement to put it down, potentially using Misty Step and Longstrider along with something else ( Not sure what ), so as long as you don't touch the other balls ( And there's no reason why you should, since you're just putting them down in the same vicinity as each other ), nothing will happen. The foe can't re-appear during the first round though, it needs to use his action to escape which only happens on his next turn, but you would still be left in the blast radius, that's true ( If you must go all the way yourself )

Of course being a Wizard, you hardly even have to place anything yourself. Mage Hand or Undead minions, Familiars, An Unseen Servant ( Following you around in the first place ) can all take the sphere and place it for you using your bonus action to command them. ( Heck, the Familiar or Planar Bound creatures wouldn't even need a bonus action since they're intelligent, you can give them the instruction of how to act in such a circumstance long before that ), so no problem there.



Correct me if i'm wrong, but the range for throwing the freezing sphere is 40 feet and the radius 60 feet. Wouldn't that mean the wizards are also taking the 60d6, and most likely dying?

Well, that would potentially require a sling or a minion to throw it, but in my scenario I was actually thinking about the need to "set it down". Although come to think of it, it can in fact be thrown since the spell claims you or any creature you gave those globes to can throw them "at any time". So if you're reading it that way, the Wizards could in fact just throw them on the creature when it appears on the creature's own turn since they can do so "at any time" ( even more flexible than a reaction ), but then either using a sling or handing it to a minion. But you see, the spell claimed you can hurl it with the sling or throw it yourself "at any time" ( not saying anything about action/bonus/reaction ) so that might actually be easy with just a sling.

Alternatively, I suppose the final Wizard could actually sacrifice 1-2 of his Time Stop turns to go and place all the freezing sphere globes given to him by the other Wizards, then uses his available Dash actions and Misty Step to easily get out of range. He could even Haste himself instead of adding his own Fireball. Wouldn't make a significant difference, since the target can be Mazed again right after it re-appears by the first Wizard.


Well, you should provide the detailed expected damage per round so we can really appreciate how good or bad this is.

Not only because it's usually the polite thing to do. But also because, so far, I really don't see how this would be better than a plain succession of Meteor Swarm, which each amounts to 40d6, or just Extended Delayed Blast Fireball from Sorcerers, with one of them using some shenanigans to allow his fellows to come stealthily enough, or fast enough, or anyways safe enough to launch them without problem.

It's 36d6 Fire at minimum, or 63d6 at maximum if the target hasn't escape for 10 rounds, or the median of about 50d6, but that's likely only probable for low intelligence targets. A level 20 Wizard can cast 4 Freezing Spheres using the 6th and 7th levels, while Time Stop gives you 1d4+1 turns, which I actually have no idea if it includes the turn in which you cast the Time Stop itself. Regardless it's always 2 turns guaranteed and could go up to 5 ( extra or including the first one ).

With an average of 3 turns, we're looking at 20d6 per Wizard and 60d6 for all the three who used Time Stop from the spheres.

Mazed for a round, the target will take approximately 96d6 Fire and Cold damage. According to AnyDice probability calculator, the average result is 336 damage. Your Succession of Meteor Swarms will have an average of 560 damage, except that most creatures with Legendary Actions ( Including Dragons who can fly half their speed ) and moreso all of those with Teleport in their legendary actions are going to escape long before you can complete your little succession, Not to mention using their Legendary Actions to harm and thwart you for the whole round or dooming your chances of upcoming success if those abilities are really powerful.

The first Wizard mazing the target yet again right after it emerges ( And wasted it's action on it's turn to escape ), our 3 damaging Wizards only used 1 fireball and 2 freezing spheres so far. Assuming 2 spheres of the 6th level and 1 fireball of the 7th, They can cast one more delayed blast fireball at the 9th level, and 2 more freezing spheres at the 8th and 7th levels, basically repeating the prior average for another ( Plus higher level casting bonus ) 111d6 damage, bringing us to 207d6 for 2 rounds. Yet remember, these are two rounds in which the creature was completely powerless and inactive, unable to use any legendary actions or affect said Wizards in any way.

[Renduaz]

It's an interesting idea, but ...
76d6? I'm not impressed.

Considering
a single assassins deals 20d6 sneak attack (+ weapon, + ofther stuff(ability score/magic), that gets about 25d6 ); And thus 4 party members = 100d6.
Heck, A flame tongue frenzied beserker does 24d6 or 32d6
(2d6 weapon + 2d6 fire +7 strength +6 rage equals about 8d6
x3 (extra attack, frenzy), or x4 (reaction attack if it))
The massively OP ( :smallwink: ) champion with a flame tongue (6d6) using his action point (2x 4 attack), and, lets say a pair of crits = 60d6
x4 = 240d6, using nothing but short rest resources

And I think 4 fighter sniper oathbowers still take look better...

It's not 76d6, and great, but I can think of party compositions which will do a lot more damage than even what you specified, yet that is irrelevant. This thread is not a "Highest party damage" build, it's a Nuke tactic, dealing a lot of damage before the target can even act. Whereas powerful magic-users and other beings can avoid a lot of your tactics or create major problems with you during even a single round. Teleports, Summonings, Save or Suck innate spellcasting abilities, and so forth. Hell, a pissed off Androspyhnx can send you 10 years back in time and leave you there as he completely leaves the premises and uses his own ability to return.

And you've got a problem with any other tactic since most of them require saves, while Maze doesn't. But when you Maze a target, you can't really deal any damage during the round. And if you tried using Time Stop without Mazing, then Time Stop stops working as soon as you do anything which affects a creature or what it's carrying. But this tactic works with both since it accumulates damage for the moment the target comes out of the Maze, while Time Stop is still working since you're just placing your "traps" without affecting any creatures, it will only affect him when he shows up in that area. Which is why it's a good nuke tactic.