TWF Eleven BM Rogue

[Easy_Lee]

The barbarian thread gave me the idea for this build. Since I'm a sucker for builds that actually make effective use of TWF, I thought I would share this one with the playground to see what everyone thinks. Note: this build uses UA.

Fighter (BM) 6 / Rogue (Any) X
Race: Any Elf (probably half-elf, since everyone likes them so much)
Starting Dexterity: 17 (point buy or standard array + elf)
Feats: UA Elven Accuracy, ASI to Dexterity
BM Maneuvers: Trip Attack, Riposte, Any

This build hits 20 dexterity by level 6 and starts accruing sneak attack dice afterward. With three attacks per round, the build trips an opponent with one attack to qualify for sneak attack. In addition, elven accuracy goes a long way toward ensuring that as long as we have advantage, our attacks will hit. Finally, the rogue sneak attack dice keep this build competitive for damage, and the rogue features add a great deal of additional options, such as expertise stealth and acrobatics if you want to be thematic.

A crossbow expert would not work as well for this build due to Riposte. The synergy with rogue here is great. If an attack hits us, we can use our reaction to take half damage after rogue 5. If the attack misses, we can Riposte and potentially get extra SA damage. Riposte requires a melee weapon. This build should outdamage a crossbow expert due to reactions, and it does so with fewer feats.

Alternative Build: BM 7 / Rogue X. This build gets one more BM die.

Alternative Build: BM 11 / Rogue X. This build sacrifices a few rogue levels for more fighter features and one more attack.

[djreynolds]

How would horde breaker fit In? Is this free attack on that foes turn?

[Easy_Lee]

How would horde breaker fit In? Is this free attack on that foes turn?

Unless you're using that spell-less ranger to get horde breaker and some superiority die, it wouldn't. This is a Fighter (Battle Master) / Rogue build.

Annnnnnd I just realized my phone misspelled Elven in the thread title. Awesome. I guess I'm going with the second variant.

[CaptainSarathai]

Fighter (BM) 6 / Rogue (Any) X
Race: Any Elf (probably half-elf, since everyone likes them so much)
Starting Dexterity: 17 (point buy or standard array + elf)
Feats: UA Elven Accuracy, ASI to Dexterity
BM Maneuvers: Trip Attack, Riposte, Any

This build hits 20 dexterity by level 6 and starts accruing sneak attack dice afterward. With three attacks per round, the build trips an opponent with one attack to qualify for sneak attack. In addition, elven accuracy goes a long way toward ensuring that as long as we have advantage, our attacks will hit. Finally, the rogue sneak attack dice keep this build competitive for damage, and the rogue features add a great deal of additional options, such as expertise stealth and acrobatics if you want to be thematic.

A crossbow expert would not work as well for this build due to Riposte. The synergy with rogue here is great. If an attack hits us, we can use our reaction to take half damage after rogue 5. If the attack misses, we can Riposte and potentially get extra SA damage. Riposte requires a melee weapon. This build should outdamage a crossbow expert due to reactions, and it does so with fewer feats.


So, for starters, Swashbuckler Rogue is vastly superior for Dual Wielding. I'd hardly say that it's a matter of "Rogue (Any)" when we're looking to dual wield.
Next, you get four Superiority Dice, so that's only happening 4 times per short rest, and you want to burn them on both Riposte and Trip. This is another instance where Swashbuckler is going to help you. Having SA on anything with one of your allies adjacent, or having the target isolated, makes it a lot easier to get SA without relying on Trip. However, you also lose out on that 3rd die from Elven Accuracy. Trip doesn't give you any extra damage though. Riposte does. I wouldn't rely on Trip. Because of that, I wouldn't bother with Elven Accuracy.

Your build:
3d6+3Stat+SA
If, instead, you went with Crossbow Expert over Elven Accuracy
3d6+3Stat+SA
Archery Style for +2 To Hit.
You can later layer Archery Style over this, for the +10 damage. If you're holding a weapon in each hand, you can choose which weapon to attack with, so at range you can double-tap with your crossbows. If you hit with your sword and SA your first attack, you can spend the next attack shooting your Crossbow, and you've still hit with your "main hand" sword to get the Bonus shot off the crossbow.

[Easy_Lee]

So, for starters, Swashbuckler Rogue is vastly superior for Dual Wielding. I'd hardly say that it's a matter of "Rogue (Any)" when we're looking to dual wield.
Next, you get four Superiority Dice, so that's only happening 4 times per short rest, and you want to burn them on both Riposte and Trip. This is another instance where Swashbuckler is going to help you. Having SA on anything with one of your allies adjacent, or having the target isolated, makes it a lot easier to get SA without relying on Trip. However, you also lose out on that 3rd die from Elven Accuracy. Trip doesn't give you any extra damage though. Riposte does. I wouldn't rely on Trip. Because of that, I wouldn't bother with Elven Accuracy.

Your build:
3d6+3Stat+SA
If, instead, you went with Crossbow Expert over Elven Accuracy
3d6+3Stat+SA
Archery Style for +2 To Hit.
You can later layer Archery Style over this, for the +10 damage. If you're holding a weapon in each hand, you can choose which weapon to attack with, so at range you can double-tap with your crossbows. If you hit with your sword and SA your first attack, you can spend the next attack shooting your Crossbow, and you've still hit with your "main hand" sword to get the Bonus shot off the crossbow.

I have two problems with swashbuckler:

It's boring, because everyone does it.
It doesn't enable nearly the same kind of interesting decisions that many other rogue archetypes offer, such as mastermind and thief.

Too many rogues rely on swashbuckler to get SA. I don't want to do that.

Regarding four superiority die per short rest, consider that for much of their leveling careers, warlocks have two spell slots per short rest. How do they handle it? By not relying on spells. Trip should be the backup option for when you can't get SA any other way. There are plenty of other ways to get advantage, including bonus action hide, allies, and winning initiative. Riposte, on the other hand, shouldn't come up every encounter, it's just great when it does.

Don't think of Trip and Riposte as the playstyle. Rogue / fighter is still the playstyle. Trip and Riposte are there as supplements. Most rogues don't have anything good to do when an enemy starts focusing them, or when they can't get advantage against a given creature. That's what the BM maneuvers are there for; a supplement when things don't work as planned.

Four dice per short rest is plenty, especially when you consider that many encounters are over in three to five rounds and adventuring groups often nab a short rest every other encounter.

Regarding Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, neither of those are half-feats. This build has 20 Dexterity by 6 and the entire rest of its rogue levels to grab whatever feats are good for the campaign. Don't underestimate versatility.

[djreynolds]

I'm just wondering if you can get an additional sneak attack on that horde breaker, if circumstances were right.
Wouldn't it be there their turn?

[Easy_Lee]

I'm just wondering if you can get an additional sneak attack on that horde breaker, if circumstances were right.
Wouldn't it be there their turn?

Horde breaker only works on your turn, so unfortunately no. If we're including UA, the only way to stack up more than two SA dice per round (that I know of) is to have the fighting style UA Tunnel Fighter - which would be broken on a defensive rogue in the right party.

[djreynolds]

Thank you, so horde breaker wouldn't help here.

I might, for this build, grab magic I initiate and get hex, for a big battle it's like having a magic weapon. Now those rapiers or scimitars are really dangerous.

Also for you enjoyment my autocorrect just had rapiers as rapists, not as bad as sex for dex.

I'll take... the rapists for 100 Alex.

[Chugger]

Riposte lets you use a sneak attack if an ally is w/in 5' of you and/or target, right? I think what you're getting at is ways to max 2 sneak attacks per round (more than trip giving you advantage, though that's nice - but you can go Lucky to get "miss insurance" - you could squeeze in 2 lvls wiz and get div for 2 pre-rolled dice, too, but that may be going too far (and is not quite the same - if you got 2 low rolls that won't work as "miss insurance" for you - it's monster doesn't save or monster misses insurance)). In other words, I think riposte 4 times between shorties is not at all bad, if it lets you have 4 rounds of double-sneak-attack.

Is Elven accuracy from 4e? Is it alive in 5e please?

[Easy_Lee]

Is Elven accuracy from 4e? Is it alive in 5e please?

It was released as a UA Feat. This time, it just lets you reroll one die when you have advantage, which is basically the same as rolling 3D20. It's also a half feat, which is why I took it for this build.

[Lolzyking]

Arcane trickster, Scag cantrips......

[Easy_Lee]

Arcane trickster, Scag cantrips......

One attack, screwed if you miss, requires a verbal component so you have to shout every time you do it...

[MeeposFire]

Horde breaker only works on your turn, so unfortunately no. If we're including UA, the only way to stack up more than two SA dice per round (that I know of) is to have the fighting style UA Tunnel Fighter - which would be broken on a defensive rogue in the right party.

Haste and ready an attack works as well. Use your haste action to attack on your turn (rogues normally have only one attack so no loss) and then use your normal action to ready an attack with an easy to get trigger. Then on somebody elses turn you get that trigger and make a second attack for SA.

[Easy_Lee]

Haste and ready an attack works as well. Use your haste action to attack on your turn (rogues normally have only one attack so no loss) and then use your normal action to ready an attack with an easy to get trigger. Then on somebody elses turn you get that trigger and make a second attack for SA.

Yes, that should normally work. If you have your party's support and are able to set things up, a pure rogue is ideal for this sort of damage. I created this build, much like the iron scoundrel build, for groups where the party is less helpful / organized.